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CGC will now allow CBCS slabs to be regraded/retagged with CGC labeling....7707

Collector ZosoRocks private msg quote post Address this user
.....what does everyone think of this?

We all know CBCS does this for CGC books, so IMO - it is just a way for CGC to keep up with CBCS.

Could this be a sign of things to come?

Meaning - could CBCS finally be in a position to strike competitively now, with CGC realizing the impact that CBCS has had on the industry?

Clearly, this is a new incentive to keep or garner new business - and like I said - we all know CBCS has been doing this "incentive" for awhile now.

What does everyone else think?

If this is a topic that should not be discussed on the forum - I apologise in advance and any moderator can delete this thread.

Best regards,
Tim

**********************
This is an excerpt from an email I rcvd recently:

"The CrossOver service works like this:

Comics submitted for CrossOver must be intact in another grading company’s holder.
These comics will be removed by CGC from that company’s holder and graded according to CGC’s grading standards. If the grade goes down, CGC will charge only $10 in grading fees.
Books will then be encapsulated in CGC’s state-of-the-art holder, which combines superior optics and the most advanced archival materials, making it ideal for visual display and preservation.
Take advantage of the special limited-time discounts on grading tiers to have your comics graded by CGC and enjoy the many benefits that come with trusting the industry leader for over 18 years:

The highest prices realized in the marketplace
The confidence of knowing your books were graded by the team of experts who have certified over 5 million collectibles
The superior protection of CGC’s archival holder
Please note: There is no guarantee that the grade assigned by CGC will be the same as the grade assigned by the other grading service. Signed collectibles submitted under the CrossOver service will not receive a CGC Signature Series label.

The CGC online form allows free members to submit at shows, and paid members to submit at shows or through the mail. If you have additional questions regarding CGC’s CrossOver Service, please contact CGC Customer Service."
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Collector KYoung_1974 private msg quote post Address this user
I can't help but snicker every time I see "superior optics" in one of their releases.

I don't think it's so much they respect CBCS's position in industry as they smell blood in the water with CBCS's TAT's still being out of control and are trying to take advantage of that window to get as much business as they can before it slams shut.
Post 2 IP   flag post
Collector moodswing private msg quote post Address this user
There is a huge thread on this already 😊
Post 3 IP   flag post
Collector ZosoRocks private msg quote post Address this user
My bad moodswing....please add the link....and I'll continue reading over there.

Thanks!!

Best regards,
Tim
Post 4 IP   flag post
Collector ZosoRocks private msg quote post Address this user
found it!!

Looks like it started a couple of hours before me....sorry everyone.

https://forum.cbcscomics.com/topic/7556/cgc-crossover-service-no-delete/
Post 5 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
Word to the wise. If you have a signature series CBCS book CGC will not honor the signature. This means either a green label (for high grade books) or a hit on the grade (otherwise).
Post 6 IP   flag post
Collector Paulbg2000 private msg quote post Address this user
This is great and all....but does anyone see this as a bit egotistical of CGC? I mean, they're treating it as if the other companies are inferior and collectors are clamoring for a CGC grade....

So let me get this straight...I'm going to submit an already graded book to you and if the grade goes down you're going to charge me only $10?!...Why would anyone risk having a grade go down, paying for the grade to go down just so they can have the CGC label on it?

I mean...if you're a PGX fan then I guess you can have all your books graded to CGC for $10 a piece, in fact CGC will probably just charge you $10 once the book arrives...but they're not exactly the main competition here.
Post 7 IP   flag post
Collector Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
The only thing more fun than eating popcorn during discussions about politics is eating popcorn from a company with a Marketing department.

Gotta love big corporations - they are truly full of it and I guess they think people don't realize it? I dunno. Maybe many folks don't.

Here's the "key" words in any Marketing dept. to make us the consumer feel good:
"Superior"
"State of the Art"
"Advanced...."
"Ideal for preservation"
"confidence"
"Team of experts"
"special limited time discount"
"benefits"
"Take advantage of" (side note: really? Take advantage of a potential lower grade? Thank you sir, may I have another!
Post 8 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulbg2000
Why would anyone risk having a grade go down, paying for the grade to go down just so they can have the CGC label on it?


Because buyers’ trust in CBCS has been severely shaken in the past year, and they are no longer purchasing them at a decent rate.

The overall 90-day average sell-through rate on ebay for CBCS is at 28%. CGC? 60%! In other words, if you have 100 books for sale at a reasonable price, with CGC you can expect 60 of them to sell in 90 days. With CBCS labels, only 28. Hell, PGX is at 29% rn


*note that the difference of 28 verses 29 is within the margin of error
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulbg2000
Why would anyone risk having a grade go down, paying for the grade to go down just so they can have the CGC label on it?


Because buyers’ trust in CBCS has been severely shaken in the past year, and they are no longer purchasing them at a decent rate.

The overall 90-day average sell-through rate on ebay for CBCS is at 28%. CGC? 60%! In other words, if you have 100 books for sale at a reasonable price, with CGC you can expect 60 of them to sell in 90 days. With CBCS labels, only 28. Hell, PGX is at 29% rn


*note that the difference of 28 verses 29 is within the margin of error


I know the data that you are using for this and it is inaccurate with numbers. You even stated this is for trends. You started tracking in July of this year. There are so many things wrong with this!!! You have no data supporting what the sales were in previous years. There are highs and lows in sales annually. All your data can do is show trends. Nearly EVERYBODY on eBay tags their slabs with CGC!!!! It can be CBCS, PGX, Halo, or whatever. And THIS is exactly why I have been against that tracking since day one. It was meant to track trends and now you are using the numbers.

You can't assume that buyer's trust has been shaken this last year because you have NO data to point to what sales were at this time last year!!! There are a thousand factors that effect sales. Making a statement like that is just erroneous. I used to sell retail auto parts. September was one of our slow months every year!!! It was almost always one of the two slowest months (the other being January or February), and always in the lowest three. Was it a sign of buyer's confidence??? Hell no!!! It was just the nature of the beast. It was cyclic. We knew it would be slow year after year.

I would suggest, as I have before, to not interpret anything until you have at LEAST two years of data if you want this to be taken seriously.
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
@Jesse_O Calculations are getting better since day one, and with the latest algorithm there will be less than a 1% margin of error on next month’s update, no matter how anyone tags anything. As of now its between 3-5% for this past data grab.

Trends, yes. Hence why we stopped lining the graph with the companies pitted against each other, but against their own July baseline. Unfortunately CBCS continues to trend down while CGC trends up against themselves. That cannot be explained with “september is a slow month”.

That buyers trust has been shaken, that is an opinion of mine, based on what I’ve seen. The sell-through rates are going down, and given what I know of events here the past year, that is the logical conclusion I’ve come to.

Am I happy about this data, these conclusions? NO. Im fknhag pissed. I’m rooting for CBCS just as much as anyone. Every single one of my personal slabs are a CBCS grade, and they will continue to be as long as Borock keeps training the team as he is now. CGC can’t grade worth a damn. Nobody does it better than here. Unfortunately, this sentiment is not shared by all.
Post 11 IP   flag post
Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
I really dislike CGC...their tactics are anti-competitive in nature. They're pricks.
Post 12 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
@shrewbeer here is your last chart.




The problem is that you have potentially THOUSANDS of comics (Raw, CGC, CBCS, PGX, etc) under the eBay certification labels!!!!! Just use the "list by price low to high" setting to see a ton of raws. Your charting is biased because eBay does not monitor and enforce their listing guidelines. Honestly, their lack of enforcement throws all relevant data into question. Your margin of error is accurate only as far as the data you enter is accurate. Those numbers are not accurate because of the way eBay operates. You would have to monitor each and every listing to get any true data. In order to have an accurate chart, you need accurate information. You are not getting that from eBay.

That's about as simple as I can explain it. The graph is misleading in many respects and is unreliable in it's numbers. All that is on eBay, not you. I appreciate what you are attempting, but there are too many flaws in it to be accurate and reliable. All you are really doing is tracking how people list their comics.
Post 13 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
@Jesse_O you have to understand statistics to get how the data is accurate.

One can grab random samples and calculate margins of error for different sets. This can be done individually by company. Once you have your margins, one can then adjust accordingly for accuracy.

We dont chart any totals, as the total numbers have a larger error; but the percentages dont.

If you dont want to trust the data, ok. I’ll explain it better on the next release.
Post 14 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
@shrewbeer I just typed in "Hulk 181 CGC" on eBay in the Comics section. There are 298 listings. Of that, 122 are actually Hulk 181's graded by CGC. There were 3 CBCS slabs, 2 PGX and one CGC Spanish edition. The rest were raw with the majority of them being homages. Plus there were some CGC slabs of other comics that threw in 181 to get seen. I'd love to hear how your data accounts for that in any reliable fashion.

edit - Just so it is clear, I am not questioning the accuracy of the chart, I am questioning the accuracy of the raw data that is put into the chart.
Post 15 IP   flag post
Collector CatmanAmerica private msg quote post Address this user
Let me make this as clear as possible, CGC's bullying tactics won't make their product any better. Since the introduction of real competition from CBCS and hurried introduction of a faulty holder redesign CGC has become the Dotard Rump of third party grading services.

Somehow CGC has gotten away with Newtonian nightmare holders, Godfather worthy tactics to block CBCS competition from certain high profile conventions and apparent over-grading practices designed to entice and benefit large consigned collections destined for auction. That last one is especially egregious because it allowed previously raw copies to be slabbed at higher grades than deserved thus penalizing high grade books already in their census which were (IMO) clearly in better condition.

The downward trending may be based on current data, but it doesn't reflect the reliability of product and service.

Fact: CBCS just moved to Texas and needed time to hire and train new graders and rebuild the company's support base.

Fact: CBCS holders are just as clear as the new CGC holders and with fewer bugs to work out.

Fact: CGC holders are hit and miss. They don't scan well due to the deeper ridge and are often plagued by blotchy NR from Mylar contacting the undersurface of the outer case.

Fact: CGC labels are an eye sore. Yes, even Mr. Magoo can now read the grade on a dealer's wall across a crowded convention center, but the book inside has become aesthetically less important.

My suggestion to CBCS ...for whatever it's worth... would be that the management should counter CGC's service and raise the ante by pointing out the competition's holder failings.

For instance, CBCS should offer to reholder ugly Newton Ring plagued CGC holders with their crisp clear product at a discount (turnabout, after all, is fair play). CBCS should tout their own high quality holders as being creep-engine free and safer for comics for long term storage. Just a thought.
.
Post 16 IP   flag post
Collector GAC private msg quote post Address this user
CBCS should offer to reholder ugly Newton Ring plagued CGC holders with their crisp clear product at a discount (turnabout, after all, is fair play). CBCS should tout their own high quality holders as being creep-engine free and safer for comics for long term storage. Just a thought. .

This should absolutely happen! I think once CBCS catches up on back orders, they should "take the gloves off" and really take it to CGC. CBCS is better than CGC in every single way accept TATs right now and we all know that TATs will get better. CBCS should flex their superior muscles when it's the appropriate time to do so.
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COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
@GAC They did when the creep engine cases were first introduced. It was only temporary though. Whether they’ll do it afain once their all caught up is to be seen
Post 18 IP   flag post
Collector Homer private msg quote post Address this user
One of the reasons CGC books are getting actual sales on Ebay is because the majority of weekend warrior dealers and full time dealers are going with the CGC business model. These types of dealers need to turn inventory and will auction books off, or price them to sell via fixed price. Until CBCS steps up and starts shipping customers orders in an efficient manner, I do not see the trend changing.
Post 19 IP   flag post
Collector BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user
The talk of CBCS "Catching up on their back orders" has been going on for years now and it's hard to believe that will change any time soon. Quality control seems to also be lacking as I see more and more label mistakes etc... customer service is also virtually non-existent.

From a company stand point at this time, CBCS is not even in the same league as CGC. Maybe and hopefully that will change.

If your going to defeat the champ you have to decisively knock them out. At this point the champ is landing text book combinations on a foe leaning on the ropes hoping to be saved by the bell.
Post 20 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
Though it does seem that CBCS is always playing catch-up, they have done so in the past. The last major incident, the hurricane last year, set them back significantly but they were caught up by early this year. Heck, I had a book that was turned around in just 5 weeks (regular modern, no fast-pass). Of course, there was only a small window between the post-hurricane recovery and the ill-planned move that most people don't even realize they had caught up. The unfortunate thing is that the hurricane was a natural disaster while the move was self-inflicted and did more damage than the hurricane, which didn't leave them short-staffed in key areas.

I don't doubt that CBCS will eventually catch up but it is unfortunate that they can't seem to avoid debilitating issues for very long before something else comes along and knocks them off balance. On that point, I do agree with you, CBCS right now feels hobbled and its main competition is a well-oiled machine.
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Collector IronMan private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@shrewbeer I just typed in "Hulk 181 CGC" on eBay in the Comics section. There are 298 listings. Of that, 122 are actually Hulk 181's graded by CGC. There were 3 CBCS slabs, 2 PGX and one CGC Spanish edition. The rest were raw with the majority of them being homages. Plus there were some CGC slabs of other comics that threw in 181 to get seen. I'd love to hear how your data accounts for that in any reliable fashion.

edit - Just so it is clear, I am not questioning the accuracy of the chart, I am questioning the accuracy of the raw data that is put into the chart.


Yes - the saying in statistics is "garbage in, garbage out".

Something like sell through rates could be affected by variables unaccounted for.

Say for instance are eBay sellers more likely to list their CGC books in auctions (higher sell through rates) and their CBCS books as BIN? This is my behavior. And what I recommend to friends and clients. If a comic book is red hot, it will sell for a good price on eBay be it CGC, CBCS, PGX or raw. But otherwise I list my CBCS slabs as BIN with best offer. Because I CAN get the CGC price with CBCS slabs on eBay - by being patient. And patient sellers would skew the sell through rate figures.

On sites like ComicLink and ComicConnect CBCS seems to be doing comparable numbers. On values anyway. There is certainly more CGC product for sale.

I don't feel like getting out my stats textbook and examining sample sizes and methodology to confirm the confidence factor stated here. But I do see variables unaccounted for. Listing practices, the experience of sellers (maybe the biggest, best known eBay sellers are mostly selling CGC product?) pricing, type of product (maybe the great majority of moderns being sold - quickly flipped - in large quantities are CGC?) and what I discuss above are just a few.
Post 22 IP   flag post
Collector Drogio private msg quote post Address this user
I second @IronMan . Cbcs slabs generally fetch less than cgc in auction style formats, and therefore naturally take longer to sell than cgc when priced the same as cgc in buy it now auctions. In fact, from what I’ve observed I believe just because cgc has such a larger amount of inventory versus cbcs on eBay for a given comic it’s more probably a cgc price will undercut the cbcs prices (as well as current going rates on cgc slabs) because someone wants to flip something quick. It’s somewhat rare for a cbcs slab to show up as a buy it now cheaper than all cgc slabs...and similar to what @IronMan strategy is a fair amount need to “best offer” feature to get them to move.
Post 23 IP   flag post
Collector IronMan private msg quote post Address this user
Adding on here...
A more meaningful set of stats would control for the variables. It would look at just a handful of large, established, well followed sellers on eBay. Sellers that sold both CGC and CBCS slabbed books. Sellers that slabbed the same types of comics by both companies. Sellers that offered these same types of books in a the same sales format and at the same prices.

It's may not be meaningless to learn the sell through rate is higher for books printed three months ago and offered up on eBay. I mean I think we all know that the hot new releases sell quickly which is why there is a rush to slab them and that you'll sell more copies of and sell those copies quicker than sayvintage ASM 1-10 from 1963/64.

But anyway...for sell through to be helpful and have meaning we need stats for the same sellers that have copies of the same books in the same grades at the same prices and same selling format at the same time by the different grading companies......
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan
But anyway...for sell through to be helpful and have meaning we need stats for the same sellers that have copies of the same books in the same grades at the same prices and same selling format at the same time by the different grading companies....


You're overlooking sample size here. These sales are in the thousands, and in the case of CGC, in the tens of thousands. When you get that large, any outliers are lost in the mean.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@shrewbeer I just typed in "Hulk 181 CGC" on eBay in the Comics section. There are 298 listings. Of that, 122 are actually Hulk 181's graded by CGC. There were 3 CBCS slabs, 2 PGX and one CGC Spanish edition. The rest were raw with the majority of them being homages. Plus there were some CGC slabs of other comics that threw in 181 to get seen. I'd love to hear how your data accounts for that in any reliable fashion.


I'll get a bit more detailed for you rather than pulling by memory in discussion>


- Categories are used rather than search terms. Far too many people spam their listings with "cgc CBCS pgx"

- Large samples are then taken of each category. These are scanned by eye, looking at the slab picture to ensure it is properly categorized. This past month sample size was 2%, 50%, 25% (CGC PGX CBCS)

- From there we can then extrapolate an initial accuracy rate. For example, in the past data set, it was 88% for CGC, 95% for PGX, and 98% for CBCS (this tells me people who list CBCS books are more honest and accurate than others lol)

- Now we have our initial sample data, we can then adjust the data accordingly and run them through MOE. Given that the scans are by eye and moving quickly, I use only 95% confidence rate.

Final margin of error on the companies for this month is 2.8% for CGC, 1.48% PGX, and 1.07% for CBCS. The larger the sample size, the better MOE we will have over time. Each month the data grab is bigger and builds upon the last. Like I said, I expect less than 1% next month. Even at almost 3% for CGC, the numbers are still accurate enough to draw conclusions from.
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
@shrewbeer Thank you for your response. That does give me more confidence in your system. However, I still have questions.

"Categories are used rather than search terms. Far too many people spam their listings with "cgc CBCS pgx""

I totally agree that too many people spam their listing and that is my concern with this data. But people still spam by categories. They will check the certification even when it is a raw book in order to get their books seen.

"Large samples are then taken of each category. These are scanned by eye, looking at the slab picture to ensure it is properly categorized. This past month sample size was 2%, 50%, 25% (CGC PGX CBCS)"

Who takes these samples and looks at them? I understand that CGC is the largest listing, but I hardly think that a 2% sample size is statistically significant.

"From there we can then extrapolate an initial accuracy rate. For example, in the past data set, it was 88% for CGC, 95% for PGX, and 98% for CBCS (this tells me people who list CBCS books are more honest and accurate than others lol)"

This is my major concern. The accuracy of the extrapolation based on the sample size. According to this 88% of all CGC listings (with a 2.8% MOE) is accurately listed. I find that very hard to believe. I know my sample of Hulk 181 is skewed because it is a very popular book to spam, but that one listing was 41% accurate. I just spot checked "God Country 1 CGC" 58 out of 81 are labeled correctly (72% accurate).

I just don't see how a 2% sample size is significant enough to reliably extrapolate from. And how is that sample taken? Is it just a price range? Do they choose DC or Marvel?

Having said all that, I do appreciate the explanation tremendously!!! This is a huge undertaking by you and I commend you for it. I hope you do not take my critique personally. I am happy that someone is tracking this and I believe that it will prove invaluable in the future. I just want to make sure that the process is accounting for everything.
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
I hope you do not take my critique personally.

Absolutely not, more input from more folks gets me to look at the system and make it better.

To your various points,

- Yes people still spam their categories, but less than search terms. This is why they have to be looked at regardless

- I have been doing the sampling myself. You would be surprised at how accurate a 2% sample can be. Think about political polling. They can survey one thousand people out of millions and manage a small margin of error.

- The 2% will build upon itself over time as well. We can consider our past samples as valid data to help out. I'd like to see it at 10%, but that's a bit more time than I have (that equates to looking at twelve thousand listings on the overall available). The past month, 2,500 were looked at. They are looked at random. For example, If I have it filtered to 50 listings per page with 2500 pages total, I'll look at one full page and skip by 50 pages for a random selection of listings.

Your spot checks for god country and hulk netted you a 56% average, but that was by search terms. Search Hulk 181 within collectible comics, filter to categorized as CGC, and look at the results. Several are not 181s, but we don't care about that; its wether or not they are categorized correctly as CGC books. 96.5% accuracy right there for CGC books. Only ten out of the pile of 289 were not CGC books.
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
@shrewbeer
"You would be surprised at how accurate a 2% sample can be. Think about political polling. They can survey one thousand people out of millions and manage a small margin of error."

Yet we all know how well THAT worked out two years ago!!! LOL!!!

Sorry, had to say it.

Now that I understand your methodology, I appreciate this report even more. How do you sort them? eBay automatically defaults to best match. If you start at the beginning and go from there, the worst matches (presumably raws) would be at the absolute rear of the list. If you want, I will offer my services to you. Perhaps if we coordinate on sampling CGC listings (so we can follow technique but not duplicate each other), we can improve the sample size and get an adequate size.

Again, I advise caution in interpreting this data until there is a large data base to go by. In my opinion, one full year is an absolute minimum, but two years worth will really start to tell the story. And I'm willing to help you do the grunt work.
Post 28 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
@Jesse_O cool, I'll be in touch next month when it's time for another run of the data.

No need to sort the listings by best match or anything. You can see every single book listed without doing any search at all.

Good joke though lol. Politics sucks
Post 29 IP   flag post
Collector Homer private msg quote post Address this user
I think your data does have merit, the problem taken out of context it is the personality of the sellers who are selling CBCS, CGC or PGX books on Ebay. There are many aggressive dealers using CGC to move books - flip, cash, and repeat. Thus a larger sell through ratio for CGC. While some CBCS sellers or collectors do the sit and wait, no risking with auction, and waiting for the right price is lengthy. The poor turn around time by CBCS has self eliminated themselves from the dealers who are moving books as flip, cash, and repeat.
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