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Opinion – various cost of sigs and drawings4452

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Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by dpiercy Who cares, guys? Pay or don't; the debate/argument is getting circular and has been had on here M A N Y times. I don't agree w/charging more for authentication/slabbing, but everything is trending that way. Edit - I posted something potentially inflammatory and I'm editing it out here to try and be considerate. Apologies. Seeyas and spare me a text wall! Hey, dpiercy: not to be "that guy", but here are the new rules...you may want to brush up on them. https://forum.cbcscomics.com/topic/4399/page/1/new-message-board-atmosphere/ Edit: thanks for removing the personal commentary. As for "who cares", I do. Is that not enough reason to discuss it? Clearly, others do, too.
	8 years ago	Post 151 • IP flag post

Collector 85	85 Jack private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers. Ok. So who's a "regular fan"...? I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not sure what's ambiguous about my question. You said "I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense." You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...? I've been told that you make your living flipping CGC yellow labels on Ebay. Is this true? If so then my definition of a regular fan isn't you. No offense but why are you pretending to be a fan??? We get that you don't like creators charging flippers because it decreases your profits. First, who is "we"? Was there an election for CBCS board spokesman, and I missed it...? Invoking "we" to make your point seem like it has support...which may, or may not, be true...is bad form. I think it's safe to say that everyone else can speak for themselves, and don't need a representative to speak for them. Second, "you've been told"...? By whom? (I don't expect this question will be answered, but it's important to ask.) Shouldn't you get the information straight from the source, before assuming that someone telling you...in private, mind...about somebody else is accurate...? That's just basic courtesy and reason, right? Shouldn't you rather be questioning those who gossip behind other people's backs...? Third, what does "flipping" mean? If a person who buys something, then has an opportunity to upgrade to a better item, and sells the first to help pay for the second, a "flipper"...? Does someone who "flips" (which isn't at all what I do, but I digress) someone not a "regular fan" by virtue of that fact? Fourth, I make my living doing many things. Selling slabs (and no, I don't just sell SS slabs) is one of them. I have gathered tens of thousands of comics over the last nearly 30 years, but grading isn't cheap. Some of the books I have recently gotten signed are MY original owner copies that I bought in 1990. But, according to some guy named "Jack" on the CBCS board, I'm not a "regular fan" because I sell books on eBay...? I'm just "pretending" to be a fan...? Fifth, I have never attempted to hide any of this. It is not a secret. Obviously, as I have already stated in this thread, I am motivated by SELF-interest. Hello...? So why the "gotcha games" nonsense? But that doesn't mean that that self interest doesn't intersect with the interests of others, and that doesn't mean that a person is not a fan simply because they...and I'm thoroughly amazed that I have to type this ON A COMIC BOOK SLABBING MESSAGE BOARD...sell comics! (GASP!!) Are you aware that the vast, vast majority of comic shop owners...you know, those guys who sell comics for a living...started as fans themselves...? Oh yes. And creators? You know, those guys who ALSO sell comics? Same thing. And a lot of the people who work at comic book publishers. All started as fans. Dirty flippers! I will ask you AGAIN, since you have not answered the question: what makes someone a "regular fan", and what distinction separates them from a "flipper"...? PS. I'm particularly amused by the use of the phrase "no offense", followed IMMEDIATELY by the question "why are you pretending to be a fan???" with not one, not TWO, but THREE question marks! I've already answered your question. [53, 460, 8.7:1] [original message word count, reply word count, reply ratio]
	8 years ago	Post 152 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944 Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics I'm not going to lie, I do collect books, but I also flip a lot of books. The books I flip i have zero attachment to. I'm in it strictly for the money. I minimise risk by picking up books on the cheap, slab them, and if it makes economic sense, I have them signed to increase their value. There are a lot of assumptions made in this thread. 1. Never assume that every flipper is paying the same amount that you are for a creator to sign their book. 2. Never assume that every flipper purchased the book at the same price you did. 3. Never assume that a book you find today will have the same fair market value in the amount of time it takes to get the book signed and graded. 12 weeks is a long time. 4. Don't let anyone kid you. Slabbing books, Especially these moderns, is done strictly for the perceived added value the label brings. The artist signing knows it, the Grading Companies know it and indeed the Flippers Know it. There is simply no other logical reason one would pay the high cost of slabbing. Please don't bring up protection, there are way more economical ways to safely protect ones comic books. Really...? So you think I got this slabbed "strictly for the perceived added value"...? And it begs the question: just who do you believe is BUYING these books...? Other flippers...?
	8 years ago	Post 153 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack
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Originally Posted by DocBrown
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Originally Posted by Jack
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Originally Posted by DocBrown
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Originally Posted by Jack
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Originally Posted by DocBrown
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Originally Posted by Jack
I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers.

Ok.

So who's a "regular fan"...?
I'm not sure what you're asking.

I'm not sure what's ambiguous about my question. You said "I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense."

You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...?

I've been told that you make your living flipping CGC yellow labels on Ebay. Is this true? If so then my definition of a regular fan isn't you. No offense but why are you pretending to be a fan??? We get that you don't like creators charging flippers because it decreases your profits.

First, who is "we"? Was there an election for CBCS board spokesman, and I missed it...?

Invoking "we" to make your point seem like it has support...which may, or may not, be true...is bad form. I think it's safe to say that everyone else can speak for themselves, and don't need a representative to speak for them.

Second, "you've been told"...? By whom? (I don't expect this question will be answered, but it's important to ask.)

Shouldn't you get the information straight from the source, before assuming that someone telling you...in private, mind...about somebody else is accurate...? That's just basic courtesy and reason, right? Shouldn't you rather be questioning those who gossip behind other people's backs...?

Third, what does "flipping" mean? If a person who buys something, then has an opportunity to upgrade to a better item, and sells the first to help pay for the second, a "flipper"...?

Does someone who "flips" (which isn't at all what I do, but I digress) someone not a "regular fan" by virtue of that fact?

Fourth, I make my living doing many things. Selling slabs (and no, I don't just sell SS slabs) is one of them. I have gathered tens of thousands of comics over the last nearly 30 years, but grading isn't cheap. Some of the books I have recently gotten signed are MY original owner copies that I bought in 1990. But, according to some guy named "Jack" on the CBCS board, I'm not a "regular fan" because I sell books on eBay...? I'm just "pretending" to be a fan...?

Fifth, I have never attempted to hide any of this. It is not a secret. Obviously, as I have already stated in this thread, I am motivated by SELF-interest. Hello...? So why the "gotcha games" nonsense?

But that doesn't mean that that self interest doesn't intersect with the interests of others, and that doesn't mean that a person is not a fan simply because they...and I'm thoroughly amazed that I have to type this ON A COMIC BOOK SLABBING MESSAGE BOARD...sell comics! (GASP!!)

Are you aware that the vast, vast majority of comic shop owners...you know, those guys who sell comics for a living...started as fans themselves...? Oh yes. And creators? You know, those guys who ALSO sell comics? Same thing. And a lot of the people who work at comic book publishers.

All started as fans.

Dirty flippers!

I will ask you AGAIN, since you have not answered the question: what makes someone a "regular fan", and what distinction separates them from a "flipper"...?

PS. I'm particularly amused by the use of the phrase "no offense", followed IMMEDIATELY by the question "why are you pretending to be a fan???" with not one, not TWO, but THREE question marks!

I've already answered your question.

You have...?

I must have missed it. All I can extrapolate is that someone who sells books is NOT a "regular fan"...I don't see ANYWHERE where you define what IS a "regular fan."

Can you define what you think IS, rather than what is NOT, a "regular fan"...?

After all, your entire contention rests on the distinction between those two, but you haven't defined what that distinction actually is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack

[53, 460, 8.7:1]

[original message word count, reply word count, reply ratio]

And this is relevant to anything, because........?

(Although, don't think the attention to detail escaped my notice!

)

8 years ago

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0

	8 years ago	Post 155 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944 Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics I'm not going to lie, I do collect books, but I also flip a lot of books. The books I flip i have zero attachment to. I'm in it strictly for the money. I minimise risk by picking up books on the cheap, slab them, and if it makes economic sense, I have them signed to increase their value. There are a lot of assumptions made in this thread. 1. Never assume that every flipper is paying the same amount that you are for a creator to sign their book. 2. Never assume that every flipper purchased the book at the same price you did. 3. Never assume that a book you find today will have the same fair market value in the amount of time it takes to get the book signed and graded. 12 weeks is a long time. 4. Don't let anyone kid you. Slabbing books, Especially these moderns, is done strictly for the perceived added value the label brings. The artist signing knows it, the Grading Companies know it and indeed the Flippers Know it. There is simply no other logical reason one would pay the high cost of slabbing. Please don't bring up protection, there are way more economical ways to safely protect ones comic books. Really...? So you think I got this slabbed "strictly for the perceived added value"...? And it begs the question: just who do you believe is BUYING these books...? Other flippers...? Or how about this one: Just slabbed for the perceived added value...? No logical reason why anyone would pay the high slabbing cost...?
	8 years ago	Post 156 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown (snip) But YELLOW labels also don't always add value to any book, for all the sundry reasons laid out earlier in this thread. And yet, creators BELIEVE that they DO, or they wouldn't be charging the upcharge...right? (snip) On this point, I disagree. I think they upcharge because this type of collector isn't the person they want to see, meet, or deal with at shows. I think they want to discourage this type of fan visiting their table. I think they'd prefer to make professional contacts at the show for future work possibilities or create new fans for their work. I think Neal Adams did my unusual request for a sketch because he knew it was for me and that I would treasure it. He actually threw out some questions to see if I was lying. I think he's probably encountered a lot of fans that do lie. It's not alweays about he money. Sometimes it's about the lack of respect in which they are treated.
	8 years ago	Post 157 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	And let's be honest...this book doesn't have ANY added value by being slabbed...it's just cool:
	8 years ago	Post 158 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @Jack Who says a flipper can't also be a fan. I would wager than most regular fans have sold some of their books on eBay. Exactly. It's snooty and elitist to have the attitude...not referring specifically to Jack, here...that those who sell comics can't also be real, or "regular" fans. The two have nothing to do with each other, and, in fact, it is most often the people who are SUCH fans that they make it their life's work, whether as retailers, or creators, or editors, or what have you. The idea that making money off of the artform somehow diminishes you, and makes you nothing but a "flipper" is an erroneous one, and quite elitist.
	8 years ago	Post 159 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown The idea that making money off of the artform somehow diminishes you, and makes you nothing but a "flipper" is an erroneous one, and quite elitist. I am an elitist, but I do agree with this.
	8 years ago	Post 160 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Logan510 Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @Jack Who says a flipper can't also be a fan. I would wager than most regular fans have sold some of their books on eBay. I would also wager that 99% of flippers have a collection of their own as well. Who the hell aside from us comic crazies wants to sell comic books for a living lol Although I get Jack's point; flipping books does create a big bias on this subject. I would have more respect if instead of the "people" attacking the "greedy creators", they were just honest and say it upsets them because it affects their bottom line (everything else said is just lip service IMHO). I wouldn't weep for the "poor flipper", but I would at least respect the honesty. Still not sure why the word "people" is in quotes...I mean, it's not cats, or giraffes, or aliens we're talking about, here. In any event...I don't think anyone has made any claim otherwise. No one is being dishonest. Obviously, no question, without a doubt, it affects the "bottom line"...and no one here has even attempted to make the claim to the contrary. ...but, as I have also very carefully said earlier, there are distinctions being ignored, such as the "collector/dealer", who uses what he or she sells as leverage to get other things he/she desires more. Another distinction being ignored is the fact that creators demanding more money for what they think is going to happen to someone else's property after they sign it is the very definition of greed. It's not their property. The don't own it. Sign it, don't sign it, charge, don't charge, but charging a different price for doing the same thing, because of the PERCEPTION that the person is doing it to "make money" is greed. IMHO.
	8 years ago	Post 161 • IP flag post

I'm a #2. 11.57K	11.57K BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 5
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Ok. You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...? REGULAR FAN A guy and his son waiting in line with one book to be signed by his favorite artist and then carefully placing it in a Mylar bag and board to add to his collection when he gets home and cherishes the memorable childhood experience every time he pulls the book out to look at. FLIPPER Usually an over weight grown adult male standing in line with multiple copies of the same book whining about "Real World Pricing" and how he can't break even with the added cost of grading fees, let alone make a profit. And Yes, it most certainly has to be graded and slabbed for that profit to occur.
	8 years ago	Post 162 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by X51 Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown (snip) But YELLOW labels also don't always add value to any book, for all the sundry reasons laid out earlier in this thread. And yet, creators BELIEVE that they DO, or they wouldn't be charging the upcharge...right? (snip) On this point, I disagree. I think they upcharge because this type of collector isn't the person they want to see, meet, or deal with at shows. I think they want to discourage this type of fan visiting their table. I think they'd prefer to make professional contacts at the show for future work possibilities or create new fans for their work. I think Neal Adams did my unusual request for a sketch because he knew it was for me and that I would treasure it. He actually threw out some questions to see if I was lying. I think he's probably encountered a lot of fans that do lie. It's not alweays about he money. Sometimes it's about the lack of respect in which they are treated. Let me make sure I understand what you're saying here, because I want to be clear: you're saying that people who do Yellow labels are all the type of people that creators don't want to deal with, that they're liars, and they are disrespectful to creators, which is why the creators "upcharge"...? Do I have that correctly...?
	8 years ago	Post 163 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @Jack Who says a flipper can't also be a fan. I would wager than most regular fans have sold some of their books on eBay. Sure. Most fans flip a few books. But most regular fans don't make their entire living from doing it. As Shrewbeer said, that creates a big bias on the subject. So, if you make "your entire living" from selling...or even "flipping" (not sure what the difference is)...then they aren't "regular fans"...? So, none of the retailers are "regular fans"...? So, what IS a regular fan?
	8 years ago	Post 164 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by X51 Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown (snip) But YELLOW labels also don't always add value to any book, for all the sundry reasons laid out earlier in this thread. And yet, creators BELIEVE that they DO, or they wouldn't be charging the upcharge...right? (snip) On this point, I disagree. I think they upcharge because this type of collector isn't the person they want to see, meet, or deal with at shows. I think they want to discourage this type of fan visiting their table. I think they'd prefer to make professional contacts at the show for future work possibilities or create new fans for their work. I think Neal Adams did my unusual request for a sketch because he knew it was for me and that I would treasure it. He actually threw out some questions to see if I was lying. I think he's probably encountered a lot of fans that do lie. It's not alweays about he money. Sometimes it's about the lack of respect in which they are treated. Let me make sure I understand what you're saying here, because I want to be clear: you're saying that people who do Yellow labels are all the type of people that creators don't want to deal with, that they're liars, and they are disrespectful to creators, which is why the creators "upcharge"...? Do I have that correctly...? Partially. I think they want to discourage the liars because there is a higher incidence of people lying when they are going for yellow label books. Rather than sort them out, they'd rather not deal with it. It was quite obvious to me that Neal was trying to verify my sincerity when he gave me the discount on a sketch. I don't think money was the issue or he would not have given me the discount.
	8 years ago	Post 165 • IP flag post

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics I'll never get out of it completely. There are some signatures that aren't worth the effort, Stan Lee, Frank Miller and Todd McFarlane being three of them. There will always be deals to be had, and as I stated earlier, not everyone is paying the same price for witnessed sigs. As a collector, I have no problem getting Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee to sign a book for me for free and have it red labeled. It's for my personal collection and I'm the one who has to be satisfied, not an unknown faceless customer on eBay. That's fine for you, but that's not a valid argument for everyone else. If I like the SS program, why would I have to be content to "have it red labeled" (which didn't even exist a few years ago)...? That's just "how you collect sucks, and how I collect rules." Because, eventually creators are going to find out about the reb label program, too, and some of them are going to want a piece of THAT cake, too. I can just imagine the scenario: "are you going to get this slabbed, either now, or any time in the future...?" It's just silly, as I'm sure you'll agree. Quote: Originally Posted by occ If it's a creator who only charges and doesn't offer free signatures, then I may pass depending on the price and how bad I want it. I added to that post above, in case you were interested. There's a lot to unpack here. 1. I never said "how you collect sucks, and how I collect rules.". Don't put words in my mouth, and use false quotes of things I never posted or meant. You asked a question and I answered. If you're wondering what I meant, then ask me, but don't make assumptions. You didn't say it, but you definitely implied it, even if you didn't mean to. Here, I'll quote you: Quote: Originally Posted by occ As a collector, I have no problem getting Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee to sign a book for me for free and have it red labeled. It's for my personal collection and I'm the one who has to be satisfied, not an unknown faceless customer on eBay. The IMPLICATION of that statement, in the context of this discussion, was that if a red label is fine for you, why does anyone need a yellow label? That's great that you, personally, have no problem with getting a red label...others, on the other hand, DO have a problem with the red label, and want a yellow label. That's great that you like red labels, but that's not relevant to this discussion, which is about yellow labels. I didn't put words in your mouth, or falsely attribute a quote to you. Quotation marks don't mean I am necessarily quoting YOU. I said "That's just "how you collect sucks, and how I collect rules."" which is an old cliche used for many years on the CGC board, and used here, too. To word it in a way you might find less objectionable, "that's just" means "that's just another manifestation of the old cliche that says "what you collect sucks, what I collect rules." In other words...the way you do it, personally, is perfectly fine, implying (even unintentionally) that it should be fine for others. I didn't wonder what you meant, so no need to ask. And people wonder why "walls of text" are necessary...? Quote: Originally Posted by occ 2. If you like yellow label books, that's fine. If the price is right I'll add yellow labels to my collection, but I am content with red labels. Ok. That's great, really. But this discussion isn't about red labels, right...? Quote: Originally Posted by occ 3. Red labeled books rarely add value to any book. In most cases it actually decreases value much like the dreaded greens from CGC. I've picked up several red labeled books at a fraction of the price when compared to a blue universal. You're making my point. Here's how: Red labels rarely add value to any book. Granted. But YELLOW labels also don't always add value to any book, for all the sundry reasons laid out earlier in this thread. And yet, creators BELIEVE that they DO, or they wouldn't be charging the upcharge...right? So, if they don't care to find out the reality about YELLOW labels...what makes you think they're going to care about the reality of RED...? See? They don't make the distinction NOW about how their signature affects value...what on earth makes anyone think they're going to make that distinction with ANOTHER color label...? They will see "Signed by So and So" (and THEY are So and So) and they will see it selling for whatever price, and they'll want a piece of THAT, too. Do you think you're going to be able to explain the difference to them...? Many of them don't want to hear it NOW; how will the red labels be any different? And when someone says "oh, those are UNWITNESSED sigs", they'll say "so? It's still my sig. Look, that's my signature on a Spawn #1 (says Todd), and they're trying to sell it for $150! And if they happen to understand the distinction, after someone explains it to them, they'll start saying "if your book is going to be slabbed now or in the future, I'm going to charge you more." Because they don't care that it was unwitnessed; they only care that it is in a SLAB and someone's "making money" and it ain't them. Quote: Originally Posted by occ Just because I sometimes flip books doesn't mean I will always make money, or completely in it for the cash. I've had people on this very board cut me deals and sell me books at a cost that is lower than FMV, and I am grateful to them for doing so. I've also sold books at a fraction of what I could make, sometimes even at a loss. I once sold a 9.8 valued at around $110 for $25 to a kid who just awwed over it. His $25 didn't even cover my grading and shipping costs, but he was happy and appreciated it and I knew it was going to someone who really valued it. Not sure what any of this has to do with the discussion, other than virtue signalling, but hey, there you go. Quote: Originally Posted by occ Another thing I'll point out that charging for signatures has done for the hobby is accessibility to getting autographs. Before this whole thing blew up you might have had to wait a few years for an artist to do a con, or be lucky enough to catch them in a shop, now I can find people on a regular basis that are holding private signings at least a few times a year. No doubt! No argument from me! While I might disagree with your contention that charging brought creators out in general, it IS TRUE that charging did convince SOME of them to come out, so you get no argument from me on that point. Throwing bucketfuls of cash at Frank Miller convinced him to sign. I don't agree with this motivation, and the they absolutely took advantage of the emotions of fanboys (mainly fear), but the fact is, it got him out. Whether that's due to "charging for signatures", or just the general euphoria of the comics market in general is hard to pin down...but I don't doubt it plays some role. I didn't imply anything, you're just making assumptions. To your other point, yellow labels always add value. Value does not equate to a return on investment. I can pay $100 for Stan's signature on a book that is normally worth $1000 in 9.8 condition. I pay the $100 to Stan and have him sign and witnessed for yellow label, and now the book is worth $1050. A $100 signature added $50 value to a normally $1000 book. Now let's say I do the same thing, but get a red label. That book would probably be worth $750 in 9.8 condition. The red label took 25% off the value from that book.
	8 years ago	Post 166 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3

	8 years ago	Post 167 • IP flag post

I'm a #2. 11.57K	11.57K BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944 Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics I'm not going to lie, I do collect books, but I also flip a lot of books. The books I flip i have zero attachment to. I'm in it strictly for the money. I minimise risk by picking up books on the cheap, slab them, and if it makes economic sense, I have them signed to increase their value. There are a lot of assumptions made in this thread. 1. Never assume that every flipper is paying the same amount that you are for a creator to sign their book. 2. Never assume that every flipper purchased the book at the same price you did. 3. Never assume that a book you find today will have the same fair market value in the amount of time it takes to get the book signed and graded. 12 weeks is a long time. 4. Don't let anyone kid you. Slabbing books, Especially these moderns, is done strictly for the perceived added value the label brings. The artist signing knows it, the Grading Companies know it and indeed the Flippers Know it. There is simply no other logical reason one would pay the high cost of slabbing. Please don't bring up protection, there are way more economical ways to safely protect ones comic books. Really...? So you think I got this slabbed "strictly for the perceived added value"...? YUP And it begs the question: just who do you believe is BUYING these books...? Other flippers...? YUP
	8 years ago	Post 168 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by X51

A talented artist makes money selling art whether they do a convention or not. Most extroverts aren't going to get excited mulling over a page of art in a closed room for hours on end, so you have to expect that many artists are likely introverts. They might not want to meet people as a general rule. I'm sure they don't mind praise and meeting people who genuinely appreciate their work, but they're preference may be to just draw and not actually interact with fans.

No argument on most of this, but this wasn't my point. I'm not talking about the creators who don't want to see people...Sam Kieth is a famous example...but rather, the contention that Bob made that creators were, in general, somehow doing fans a favor just by showing up.

There are a lot of fans who believe that, sure. And I'm sure there are lots of creators who feel the same way - that they're doing people a favor by showing up.

But it's not a healthy attitude to have with anyone, on either side.

And, as I said, a lot of creators DO do the convention scene, for the reasons I laid out above. Many of them...not all, but quite a few...go to cons for opportunities that they might not otherwise have, so it's not...necessarily...a disruption to their lives, and therefore they should be feted because of it.

It's much healthier to treat fans, and for fans to treat creators, as fellow human beings, rather than, in some cases, gods to be worshiped, and vassal to do obeisance.

I know that's anathema to some, but it's true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by x51

I used to draw a cartoon (poorly) and I was published for 2 years. I signed a lot of the magazine that published my work. It's VERY unlikely you'd see me do an organized signing session. There's no way in hell I'd ever field requests to sign my name in a box so that your copy could be pristine. The fluffy superficial stuff is one thing. The concept that the fans steer the interaction and tell me what to do is another. That's just me though. The window of time in which people asked me for my signature was relatively short. It was surreal, but it was short.

Fair enough, but that is just you, and you acknowledge that. If you're signing for free, you have every right to dictate the terms. If you're charging, though, it's now business, and both parties have the right to negotiate terms the other may find acceptable, including steering the direction of the pen.

8 years ago

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Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics

I didn't imply anything, you're just making assumptions.

Ok. I see it one way, you see it the other. I think we've both made our arguments well enough that earnest seekers can come to their own conclusions on that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ
To your other point, yellow labels always add value. Value does not equate to a return on investment.

The yellow label did not add value. Ergo, the yellow label does not always add value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ

I can pay $100 for Stan's signature on a book that is normally worth $1000 in 9.8 condition. I pay the $100 to Stan and have him sign and witnessed for yellow label, and now the book is worth $1050.

A $100 signature added $50 value to a normally $1000 book.

Got any real world examples, like the New Mutants #98 above...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ
Now let's say I do the same thing, but get a red label. That book would probably be worth $750 in 9.8 condition. The red label took 25% off the value from that book.

Estimates aren't helpful in this discussion, but concrete examples would be.

8 years ago

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown

Really...?

So you think I got this slabbed "strictly for the perceived added value"...?

YUP

You're incorrect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bro
Quote:
Originally Posted by DB
And it begs the question: just who do you believe is BUYING these books...?

Other flippers...?

YUP

Follow that logic through to the end...where do all these yellow label books end up...?

Do they endlessly circle through flipper after flipper after flipper, in an ever spiraling upwards price...?

Or is it really that the end result is that COLLECTORS buy them for their collections...?

8 years ago

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944 Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Ok. You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...? REGULAR FAN A guy and his son waiting in line with one book to be signed by his favorite artist and then carefully placing it in a Mylar bag and board to add to his collection when he gets home and cherishes the memorable childhood experience every time he pulls the book out to look at. FLIPPER Usually an over weight grown adult male standing in line with multiple copies of the same book whining about "Real World Pricing" and how he can't break even with the added cost of grading fees, let alone make a profit. And Yes, it most certainly has to be graded and slabbed for that profit to occur. And what about the people who fall into neither of those characterizations, Jack...er, sorry, BigRedOne?
	8 years ago	Post 172 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by X51

Partially. I think they want to discourage the liars because there is a higher incidence of people lying when they are going for yellow label books. Rather than sort them out, they'd rather not deal with it.

That's backwards. Charging an upcharge for slabbing ENCOURAGES people to lie. It does not DISCOURAGE them. Wouldn't it make much more sense to just charge a flat charge for everyone, so you won't put anyone in the position of feeling the need to lie to you in the first place...? The motivation to upcharge did not come about as a result of people lying to them. Rather, the motivation for people lying to them came about as a result of the upcharge, which itself came about as a means to "ensure" that so and so creator was getting "their fair share" (according to THEIR definition.)

It's pretty easy to walk up with a handful of books and say "uh, this is for my kid, who, uh, is 10, and REALLY loves The Boys, Garth Ennis." (I make light of it, but you see my point.)

And now that "window bags" have been "identified" as "slabbing", it's easy enough to simply take them out.

If everyone is charged the same, there's no longer any motivation to lie about where the book is going. And why are creators even asking in the first place...? Len Wein and Marv Wolfman...among others...have told me to my face that the reason they upcharge is because they don't want their signatures being treated (in Marv's words) "like trading cards."

And while I don't doubt that there are people who lie to creators, it's certainly not the majority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by x51
It was quite obvious to me that Neal was trying to verify my sincerity when he gave me the discount on a sketch. I don't think money was the issue or he would not have given me the discount.

That's a rather cynical way of doing things, trying to figure out if someone is trying to bamboozle you or not. But, then, Neal's always been a cynical dude.

It is my contention that if creators simply charged what they were comfortable with, and didn't worry about what happened to it afterwards, a lot of this tension and illwill would go away.

Trying to figure out who's lying to you, and who's not...? That's got to be soul-crushing. For THEIR peace of mind, if they stuck to a plan they were comfortable with, they wouldn't have to constantly be worrying if someone was "trying to get one over on them."

It's not a healthy way of living life.

8 years ago

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.51K	30.51K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Towmater What he said.
	8 years ago	Post 174 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.51K	30.51K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944 Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Ok. You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...? REGULAR FAN A guy and his son waiting in line with one book to be signed by his favorite artist and then carefully placing it in a Mylar bag and board to add to his collection when he gets home and cherishes the memorable childhood experience every time he pulls the book out to look at. FLIPPER Usually an over weight grown adult male standing in line with multiple copies of the same book whining about "Real World Pricing" and how he can't break even with the added cost of grading fees, let alone make a profit. And Yes, it most certainly has to be graded and slabbed for that profit to occur. 1. Because those are the only two types that get signatures. 2. Don't call me fat.
	8 years ago	Post 175 • IP flag post

past performance is no guarantee of future actions. 31.82K	31.82K KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I'm just a mook who bought into the slab fad! I usually do have my son with me but I will also get the 'SS' on higher value books and plain sigs on my fav but not worth much. Can count on one hand the number of books I've sold. Do really like the verified program that CBCS has - got some books signed in the past and now it turns out they may have value to them..maybe..someday..I might sell...but not quite yet..at least not the signed ones Well probably this one - all signatures free BTW - Stans guys were handing out cards that you paid for then one item per card at the front of the line...I had a few cards stuck together...guess this is why I need extra ethics training!
	8 years ago	Post 176 • IP flag post

I'm a #2. 11.57K	11.57K BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944 Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Ok. You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...? REGULAR FAN A guy and his son waiting in line with one book to be signed by his favorite artist and then carefully placing it in a Mylar bag and board to add to his collection when he gets home and cherishes the memorable childhood experience every time he pulls the book out to look at. FLIPPER Usually an over weight grown adult male standing in line with multiple copies of the same book whining about "Real World Pricing" and how he can't break even with the added cost of grading fees, let alone make a profit. And Yes, it most certainly has to be graded and slabbed for that profit to occur. And what about the people who fall into neither of those characterizations, Jack...er, sorry, BigRedOne? I would say that middle ground is filled mostly by people who: Have a life long admiration for comic books and the childhood memories they invoke beyond just any monetary value they may hold. Obviously we all like to feel our collections hold some kind of monetary value, myself included. I also think that if your in the hobby long enough that one will eventually feel the need to sell off some of his/her books, hopefully at a profit, but the day monetary reasons become more important than the Characters, Stories, Art and the nostalgic feelings Comic Books invoke in me, is the day I will no longer be involved in the hobby. I have to give you credit Doc.... You are certainly animate about your opinion and you are most certainly more than capable of one hell of a Filibuster(I say that with all due respect) Why are some fearing the thread being locked? While a difference of opinions has been openly displayed here, I think the thread and discussion has stayed pretty respectful despite those difference of opinions. I mean who wants to be in some "same ole same ole" boring message board discussion where people are afraid to speak up and offer their honest opinions. That's the main reason I like this Message Board. Because of the experienced and Knowledge hobby people that reside here. Do I always agree with everything they say? Obviously No. But that difference of opinions is what keeps us engaged and interested in an obviously meaningful topic to all who partake in it. Yes at little bit heat here and there, but I think for the most part it been respectful and within the guidelines the moderators recently spoke of. I have nothing but the up most respect for all who have posted their opinions on the topic here. In ending, I just have to say...... (Like the Bounty who just had to go back and face Josey Whales) Im NOT always right.......... But Im NEVER Wrong! Keep your Families Safe Guys! John
	8 years ago	Post 177 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K NilesPaine private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	IBTL!
	8 years ago	Post 178 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	I have nothing but the up most respect for all who have posted their opinions on the topic here. I wish I could say the same, but some of these opinions expressed by certain "people" are so repulsive I find myself feeling the need to bathe in turpentine. Seriously...just ughh.
	8 years ago	Post 179 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown It is my contention that if creators simply charged what they were comfortable with, and didn't worry about what happened to it afterwards, a lot of this tension and illwill would go away. Trying to figure out who's lying to you, and who's not...? That's got to be soul-crushing. For THEIR peace of mind, if they stuck to a plan they were comfortable with, they wouldn't have to constantly be worrying if someone was "trying to get one over on them." It's not a healthy way of living life. I'm sure some do. Scott Campbell is probably that way. It's easy to say that, but it's another to be actually wearing their shoes. They see people who are truly overjoyed to meet them followed by people instructing them how they need their comic signed. I'm sure that's a stark contrast.
	8 years ago	Post 180 • IP flag post

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