Email Alertscheckbox YTcheckbox Manage Email Alerts

Opinion – various cost of sigs and drawings4452

Pages:

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	And, of course, that business "model" obviously isn't sustainable. Eventually, "flippers" will be forced to move on to something else, and you know who loses in that scenario...? No, not the flippers. The collectors and the creators. The collectors, because there will no longer be a way to get books signed that they really want, other than doing the heavy work themselves, which many people can't do. So, someone may NEVER get that Batman #405 signed by Miller, because it's simply not cost-effective for anyone to actually do the work of making that happen. And the creators, because it's better to make $100 than $0 while trying to make $500. As well...creators stifle their own legacy. As should be obvious, a lot of them are dying. Once that happens, no more sigs. There are fewer Al Plastino SS out there than there otherwise might be, because of the Plastino incident. And that's a shame, because there are fewer examples of books signed by Plastino available for people to own, to have a tangible connection to him. And he's gone. Same with Len, same with Bernie, same with Darwyn, same with Turner, etc etc etc.
	8 years ago	Post 126 • IP flag post

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics Quote: Originally Posted by Nino_013 Looking at this example, the final price barely cover the cost of the grading fees let alone the cost of the signatures... This is part of doing homework. If you're a flipper it has to make sense, and low risk. Yes, but the question I want to ask is "do you still think everyone slabbing is making fat cash off of your signatures?" I don't really care. The important thing to me is that I make cash when I'm flipping a book, and if the price of the creators signature will increase my ROI, then I'll gladly pay it. If a $20 investment yields me an extra $50 I'm going to smile all the way to the bank.
	8 years ago	Post 127 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Logan510 I bet some fan is happy with their purchase though. I did a quick run through on Miller signed and slabbed stuff on eBay. Man, talk about a market that has its ups and downs. The down point looks to be now. People have picked up Miller signed slabbed comics for $100.00 - $75.00 with all sorts of other signatures. Fingers crossed that the comic market as a whole will dip. Might make a Happy New Year for those of us seeking to buy things right after Christmas when people need cash to pay off bills and pay taxes.
	8 years ago	Post 128 • IP flag post

Collector

16.89K

DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user

plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nino_013
Looking at this example, the final price barely cover the cost of the grading fees let alone the cost of the signatures...

This is part of doing homework. If you're a flipper it has to make sense, and low risk.

Yes, but the question I want to ask is "do you still think everyone slabbing is making fat cash off of your signatures?"

I don't really care.

Noted. As stated, that was the question *I* want to ask, not what YOU should ask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ
The important thing to me is that I make cash when I'm flipping a book, and if the price of the creators signature will increase my ROI, then I'll gladly pay it.

If a $20 investment yields me an extra $50 I'm going to smile all the way to the bank.

Technically, the price of the signature DECREASES your ROI, but I understand your point.

And what happens when every creator has priced his or her signature out of your ability to "ROI"...? Or anyone's? Because, as the above example clearly shows, it's already been happening for a long time. Do you think there will always be SOME comic that will give you some sort of "ROI" by getting it signed...? Or does that not factor into your business model, and you'll just abandon SS entirely as soon as you "can't make money with it"...?

I get that you don't care. Noted.

But what about the people who do? Do they not count?

Because, oddly enough (which isn't odd at all), motivated by self-interest, I want to see OTHER PEOPLE get what makes them happy, too. And if everyone is priced out, that's going to end...even for you.

I am part of the SS program because I enjoy it. I get a thrill out of meeting creators and having them sign my books. And yes, I do, in fact, sell many of them to pay for the rest.

I'm not making any judgments about your business model, unlike many doing the same to "the dirty flippers", and if you don't care about SS as a "thing", there is nothing wrong with that. The industry needs people like you, too. But, if SS is not your thing, and you are motivated by nothing but profit...why on EARTH are you arguing IN FAVOR of creators charging more for slabbing than for non-slabbing?

It's a bit backwards. You are arguing against your interests. And it doesn't take a doctorate in Econ to know that, does it?

8 years ago

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics Quote: Originally Posted by Nino_013 Looking at this example, the final price barely cover the cost of the grading fees let alone the cost of the signatures... This is part of doing homework. If you're a flipper it has to make sense, and low risk. Yes, but the question I want to ask is "do you still think everyone slabbing is making fat cash off of your signatures?" I don't really care. Noted. As stated, that was the question I want to ask, not what YOU should ask. Quote: Originally Posted by occ The important thing to me is that I make cash when I'm flipping a book, and if the price of the creators signature will increase my ROI, then I'll gladly pay it. If a $20 investment yields me an extra $50 I'm going to smile all the way to the bank. Technically, the price of the signature DECREASES your ROI, but I understand your point. And what happens when every creator has priced his or her signature out of your ability to "ROI"...? Or anyone's? Because, as the above example clearly shows, it's already been happening for a long time. Do you think there will always be SOME comic that will give you some sort of "ROI" by getting it signed...? Or does that not factor into your business model, and you'll just abandon SS entirely as soon as you "can't make money with it"...? I get that you don't care. Noted. But what about the people who do? Do they not count? Because, oddly enough (which isn't odd at all), motivated by self-interest, I want to see OTHER PEOPLE get what makes them happy, too. And if everyone is priced out, that's going to end...even for you. I'll never get out of it completely. There are some signatures that aren't worth the effort, Stan Lee, Frank Miller and Todd McFarlane being three of them. There will always be deals to be had, and as I stated earlier, not everyone is paying the same price for witnessed sigs. As a collector, I have no problem getting Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee to sign a book for me for free and have it red labeled. It's for my personal collection and I'm the one who has to be satisfied, not an unknown faceless customer on eBay. If it's a creator who only charges and doesn't offer free signatures, then I may pass depending on the price and how bad I want it.
	8 years ago	Post 130 • IP flag post

Collector

16.89K

DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user

plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics

I'll never get out of it completely. There are some signatures that aren't worth the effort, Stan Lee, Frank Miller and Todd McFarlane being three of them. There will always be deals to be had, and as I stated earlier, not everyone is paying the same price for witnessed sigs.

As a collector, I have no problem getting Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee to sign a book for me for free and have it red labeled. It's for my personal collection and I'm the one who has to be satisfied, not an unknown faceless customer on eBay.

That's fine for you, but that's not a valid argument for everyone else. If I like the SS program, why would I have to be content to "have it red labeled" (which didn't even exist a few years ago)...?

That's just "how you collect sucks, and how I collect rules."

Because, eventually creators are going to find out about the reb label program, too, and some of them are going to want a piece of THAT cake, too.

I can just imagine the scenario: "are you going to get this slabbed, either now, or any time in the future...?"

It's just silly, as I'm sure you'll agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ
If it's a creator who only charges and doesn't offer free signatures, then I may pass depending on the price and how bad I want it.

I added to that post above, in case you were interested.

8 years ago

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	In 2008, when the first Frazetta signing happened, his charge was $250. No one was charging a "slab surcharge", and almost no one knew of the SS program. The vast, vast majority of creators were still signing for free. People paid it, because, come on...it was Frank Freakin' Frazetta. I cannot imagine...absolutely cannot fathom...what that cost might be today, with all the "OMG!! PEOPLE ARE FLIPPING MY SIGNATURE FOR MONEY!!!!!!" hysteria going on. I doubt he'd be affected, but you never know...just look at the Plastino Incident.
	8 years ago	Post 132 • IP flag post

Collector 85	85 Jack private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers. Ok. So who's a "regular fan"...? I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not sure what's ambiguous about my question. You said "I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense." You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...? I've been told that you make your living flipping CGC yellow labels on Ebay. Is this true? If so then my definition of a regular fan isn't you. No offense but why are you pretending to be a fan??? We get that you don't like creators charging flippers because it decreases your profits.
	8 years ago	Post 133 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers. Ok. So who's a "regular fan"...? I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not sure what's ambiguous about my question. You said "I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense." You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...? I've been told that you make your living flipping CGC yellow labels on Ebay. Is this true? If so then my definition of a regular fan isn't you. No offense but why are you pretending to be a fan??? We get that you don't like creators charging flippers because it decreases your profits. Bingo.
	8 years ago	Post 134 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Logan510 Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos Limit the number of books or don't limit the number of books. Sign books or don't sign books. Charge for signatures or don't charge for signatures. While I like free signatures as much as the next guy I do not have a problem with an artist charging for their signature. There is nothing wrong with selling a comic book for a profit. If there was, the artists and the writers should look in the mirror for taking blood money from their evil employers. Collector's may intend to keep the books but bills tend to pile up and "collections" get sold all of the time, especially by the loved ones of collectors who have passed on. While artists might have a warm and fuzzy idea in their head of who is a "true collector" and worthy of a free signature those unworthy flippers and speculators have probably been following the artist longer. The evil sellers will also get the artist's signatures out to a wider audience who will not be at the cons. Instead of worrying about what will happen to someone else's book after it has been signed, artists and writers should appreciate that everyone who is spending money to attend a show and waiting on line is a fan of their work instead of worrying about ulterior motives. Graded or not the decision to sell the signed books is not theirs to make. As far as I'm concerned, artists can charge whatever they want for whatever reason they want and the market will decide. Good for the ones who're savvy enough to realize their signature can sometimes hold more than sentimental value for the person getting the book signed. I think everyone posting in this discussion agrees with this. Quote: Originally Posted by logan510 The argument that they've been paid for the work already so they shouldn't care is spurious at best. Since you can't resist responding to or interacting with me, I'll give you a direct reply (rather than an "oblique" reference, dancing around each other, which is silly, and not really fooling anyone paying attention.) I'm pretty sure that no one's made this argument in this entire discussion. If no one's made this argument...and indeed, it is completely spurious...then it's a red herring, designed to muddy the discussion. There have been a lot of arguments made...some good, some not so much...so why bring up arguments that haven't been made by anyone? Quote: Originally Posted by logan A lot of the older school guys did not make great money initially for their work...some might argue "so what? They knew the deal going in, why should I weep for the poor artist"? That is correct, but it's also irrelevant to the discussion. What someone else has or has not made is none of my concern, and should not be the foundation for any decision I make. In the exact same way, what I have made or might make is no one else's concern, and should not be the foundation for any decision others make. You know who DID make money, or at least had the creative freedom to express themselves as they saw fit, among the "older school guys"...? The ones who took the risk. The ones who ventured out on their own (Hi Wally Wood! Hi Neal Adams! Hi Barry Smith!) The ones who traded security for risk. Neal Adams didn't like how Marvel and DC were treating creators, so you know what he did...? He founded his own publishing company. He could probably have worked at Marvel and DC for his entire career...he was, after all, the very first "hot artist"...but he traded security for risk, and did it HIS way. Was Continuity a smash success...? Not really. And it really demonstrates the value of working for a large corporation. But it was HIS. It rose or fell based on HIM, not what some corporate suit wanted. So, how did that turn out for him...? Anyone going to see any films made by Continuity Studios this weekend...? Selling any Continuity Comics back issues featuring their most famous creation...? Putting any Continuity Toys, Inc. action figures on their shelves...? How about Aardvark-Vanaheim? Pacific Comics? Eclipse? First? Capital? Chaos? Aircel? Arrow? How's EC doing these days? Tower Comics? Charlton? Gold Key? (ok, that one's a sorta gimme.) Valiant? Acclaim? Publishing is a RISKY business. If one chooses security over risk, that's a perfectly valid choice...but it IS a CHOICE, and there are consequences for all the choices we make. Neal put HIS money where his mouth is, and founded his own publishing company. It didn't work, but you MUST respect the man for being willing to trade security for risk. And, there are also instances where it was a smashing success: Image. And an enduring success, if not smashing: Dark Horse. And there are others, who have carved out their niches in the industry, and I applaud each and every one of them for daring to do it on their own, on their terms. But the successes are few, very few, and very far between. This industry is LITTERED with failures, up and down, because PUBLISHING IS RISKY. Quote: Originally Posted by logan I imagine people like this probably think that DC should never have succumbed to the moral pressure they were receiving to take care of Siegel and Shuster who were living nearly destitute. This is a terrible argument. It's a harsh example of what happens when people argue from emotion, rather than reason. DC never should have succumbed to the "moral pressure" they were receiving from a bunch of busybody "do-gooders" (we call them "Social Justice Warriors" these days.) It set a TERRIBLE precedent that anyone could come back, long after the fact, and renegotiate the past, which put DC Comics at great and unacceptable risk, all because of political correctness and pressure. First off, WERE Siegel and Shuster "living nearly destitute"...? If so, why...? Second, what happened to the money they made during their working careers? Third, what was preventing them from negotiating better terms PRIOR TO selling the rights to Superman? "That's none of your business!" CORRECT! It's no one's business but THEIRS...until they MAKE it everyone else's business by going public about it. It's the same "Won't someone PLEASE think of the CHILDREN!!" emotional appeal that people use to guilt others into doing what THEY, themselves, feel guilty about. Guilt loves company. "Siegel and Shuster got the shaft! I feel guilty about that! I shouldn't be supporting DC, or buying Superman. I know! I'll make OTHER PEOPLE feel guilty, so I won't feel as much guilt!" What was stopping anyone who pressured DC from helping Siegel and Shuster personally? Maybe some of them did, but I'd be willing to bet that a lot of them did not. What's stopping them from donating to Siegel and Shuster's estate now? Nothing. "But DC has made billions off of Superman!!" True! And it's easy to look back over early 80 years and say that. But in 1937, when Harry Donenfeld was considering whether to publish a new "action" comic book, he was not thrilled...to put it mildly...with the fantastic aspects of this new "superman." He thought that such a ridiculous character would be roundly rejected by the public. And he might not have been wrong. Detective Comics, Inc. took the risk by publishing the work of these unknown young artists. Siegel and Shuster had been shopping Superman around for quite some time before DC decided to publish him. AND...the fact that Superman has been shepherded over the ensuing decades by a multi-national corporation has ensured that the character remains a vibrant part of the social fabric of America and the world. That is something Siegel and Shuster themselves could not do, because no individual, no matter how smart, or powerful, or rich, can do that. It takes a corporation to do that. The reason Superman is STILL IN the public eye isn't because of Siegel and Shuster...it's because of DC and their legion of creators handling the character long after Siegel and Shuster left IN THE FORTIES. Superman is just as much a part of the human consciousness because of John Byrne and Curt Swan and Ed McGuinness and Julius Schwartz and Fred Ray and Jack Burnley and Elliot S! Maggin and George Reeves and Christopher Reeve and Richard Donner. Are there hues and cries for THOSE people to receive further compensation from DC...? Again: Siegel and Shuster traded RISK for SECURITY. Playing on people's emotions, trying to guilt them into feeling sorry for people who may or may not have made wise decisions with their careers or money, is manipulative. And the immutable law of economics is simple: those who take the risk are the ones who earn the reward, if it comes. Siegel and Shuster traded risk for security. There was quite literally nothing preventing them from publishing Superman THEMSELVES, especially in that era when a new publisher sprang up every other week, or negotiating a better deal. Nothing at all. After all...Bob Kane did it. And anyone suggesting that people are evil or bad for saying this are, in fact, themselves touting their moral superiority over others. There is nothing stopping anyone...nothing at all...from putting their money where their mouth is and donating to the Siegel or Shuster estates EVEN NOW, if one REALLY feels THAT strongly about it. Quote: Originally Posted by logan510 "So what? They got paid for their work, they should've made a better deal like Bob Kane did"...there are "people" ( I use that term lightly ) who actually believe this. I'm not sure what you mean by "people", and why you use that term lightly. What else would they be? Cats? Horses? Aliens? Quote: Originally Posted by logan510 People like that might as well stand on the Hero Initiative table at the next con they attend and take a huge dump. I believe that the kids today call this "virtue signalling." There are several things I would like to say, but I would prefer to stay a member of this board.
	8 years ago	Post 135 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.42K	30.42K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	@Jack Who says a flipper can't also be a fan. I would wager than most regular fans have sold some of their books on eBay.
	8 years ago	Post 136 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 13.26K	13.26K shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @Jack Who says a flipper can't also be a fan. I would wager than most regular fans have sold some of their books on eBay. I would also wager that 99% of flippers have a collection of their own as well. Who the hell aside from us comic crazies wants to sell comic books for a living lol Although I get Jack's point; flipping books does create a big bias on this subject.
	8 years ago	Post 137 • IP flag post

Collector 85	85 Jack private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @Jack Who says a flipper can't also be a fan. I would wager than most regular fans have sold some of their books on eBay. Sure. Most fans flip a few books. But most regular fans don't make their entire living from doing it. As Shrewbeer said, that creates a big bias on the subject.
	8 years ago	Post 138 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics X51 - that is exactly what I do. These "creator" souls are "real" people also. Many a time they disrupt their personal lives to attend these "comicons" - and get grief from some who do not do what the fan asks. Quickest way to break such "ice" is to talk about stuff other than comics and/or placement of sig on a comic book without a spine bend hurting the entertainment meant to be read. Bob...when you sell a comic book for a lot more money than it sold for when published, you're taking part in the mentality that is concerned with things like spine bends. That item has value because of what it is, true, but also the condition it is in. If you only wish to discuss the entertainment value of these books, why not just sell the latest, most current reprint of that story...? And if we're going to argue that creators "disrupt their personal lives to attend these comicons", I would bring up the fact that many of these creators' entire business model is based ON attending comicons. That it is not only NOT a "disruption", but it is, in fact, the method and mode by which they exercise their creative potential, whether it's taking commissions, or networking with publishers and other creators, or just simply getting a booth and selling their own product. I don't think it's reasonable to cast creators in the light of "well, look, they're doing everyone a FAVOR by showing up..." A talented artist makes money selling art whether they do a convention or not. Most extroverts aren't going to get excited mulling over a page of art in a closed room for hours on end, so you have to expect that many artists are likely introverts. They might not want to meet people as a general rule. I'm sure they don't mind praise and meeting people who genuinely appreciate their work, but they're preference may be to just draw and not actually interact with fans. I used to draw a cartoon (poorly) and I was published for 2 years. I signed a lot of the magazine that published my work. It's VERY unlikely you'd see me do an organized signing session. There's no way in hell I'd ever field requests to sign my name in a box so that your copy could be pristine. The fluffy superficial stuff is one thing. The concept that the fans steer the interaction and tell me what to do is another. That's just me though. The window of time in which people asked me for my signature was relatively short. It was surreal, but it was short.
	8 years ago	Post 139 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @Jack Who says a flipper can't also be a fan. I would wager than most regular fans have sold some of their books on eBay. I would also wager that 99% of flippers have a collection of their own as well. Who the hell aside from us comic crazies wants to sell comic books for a living lol Although I get Jack's point; flipping books does create a big bias on this subject. I would have more respect if instead of the "people" attacking the "greedy creators", they were just honest and say it upsets them because it affects their bottom line (everything else said is just lip service IMHO). I wouldn't weep for the "poor flipper", but I would at least respect the honesty.
	8 years ago	Post 140 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 5
	I think that anyone who has been around the block in this hobby wants the value or their collectibles to increase. I think anyone who has owned a hot book and saw a way to capitalize on it and use that as leverage to get a book that means more to them would do so. I also think there is a disproportionate amount of collectors in today's market that are only interested in their collection gaining value. I'm guilty. I don't blame others for wanting the same. I do think the balance has shifted out of hand when the person chasing a signature feels that a creator should act one certain way vs. another. You are there to see them. At no point do they work directly for you. Their success depends on whether you appreciate their work, but people have limits of what they will do to earn that appreciation. Maybe being everyone's favorite artist isn't worth the price we think it should be worth. Only an individual can decide that for his or her self.
	8 years ago	Post 141 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.42K	30.42K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@X51 Well said. If it was so easy to quit your job and flip books on eBay I think a lot more people would do do. Even though I am ramping up my eBay store I am not at the point where I consider myself retired from the world of work. After several years of selling comics I am still figuring things out.
	8 years ago	Post 142 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @X51 Well said. If it was so easy to quit your job and flip books on eBay I think a lot more people would do do. Even though I am ramping up my eBay store I am not at the point where I consider myself retired from the world of work. After several years of selling comics I am still figuring things out. A well known dealer in the industry offered me a job managing one of his stores. When I saw the offer, I cringed. It was an insult. There was no way in hell I was going to quit my job, take a pay cut, and work for what he offered me. When him and his wife said that was the best they could offer, I just passed and gave no reason. In truth, it was not anything close to a pay range I'd accept. He'd have to triple the offer he made and even then I would have probably said no.
	8 years ago	Post 143 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@X51 Sounds like you had some really real world choices to make. It looks like those really real world factors hampered your ability to take the job.
	8 years ago	Post 144 • IP flag post

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics I'll never get out of it completely. There are some signatures that aren't worth the effort, Stan Lee, Frank Miller and Todd McFarlane being three of them. There will always be deals to be had, and as I stated earlier, not everyone is paying the same price for witnessed sigs. As a collector, I have no problem getting Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee to sign a book for me for free and have it red labeled. It's for my personal collection and I'm the one who has to be satisfied, not an unknown faceless customer on eBay. That's fine for you, but that's not a valid argument for everyone else. If I like the SS program, why would I have to be content to "have it red labeled" (which didn't even exist a few years ago)...? That's just "how you collect sucks, and how I collect rules." Because, eventually creators are going to find out about the reb label program, too, and some of them are going to want a piece of THAT cake, too. I can just imagine the scenario: "are you going to get this slabbed, either now, or any time in the future...?" It's just silly, as I'm sure you'll agree. Quote: Originally Posted by occ If it's a creator who only charges and doesn't offer free signatures, then I may pass depending on the price and how bad I want it. I added to that post above, in case you were interested. There's a lot to unpack here. 1. I never said "how you collect sucks, and how I collect rules.". Don't put words in my mouth, and use false quotes of things I never posted or meant. You asked a question and I answered. If you're wondering what I meant, then ask me, but don't make assumptions. 2. If you like yellow label books, that's fine. If the price is right I'll add yellow labels to my collection, but I am content with red labels. 3. Red labeled books rarely add value to any book. In most cases it actually decreases value much like the dreaded greens from CGC. I've picked up several red labeled books at a fraction of the price when compared to a blue universal. Just because I sometimes flip books doesn't mean I will always make money, or completely in it for the cash. I've had people on this very board cut me deals and sell me books at a cost that is lower than FMV, and I am grateful to them for doing so. I've also sold books at a fraction of what I could make, sometimes even at a loss. I once sold a 9.8 valued at around $110 for $25 to a kid who just awwed over it. His $25 didn't even cover my grading and shipping costs, but he was happy and appreciated it and I knew it was going to someone who really valued it. Another thing I'll point out that charging for signatures has done for the hobby is accessibility to getting autographs. Before this whole thing blew up you might have had to wait a few years for an artist to do a con, or be lucky enough to catch them in a shop, now I can find people on a regular basis that are holding private signings at least a few times a year.
	8 years ago	Post 145 • IP flag post

Collector 4.84K	4.84K dpiercy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Who cares, guys? Pay or don't; the debate/argument is getting circular and has been had on here M A N Y times. I don't agree w/charging more for authentication/slabbing, but everything is trending that way. Edit - I posted something potentially inflammatory and I'm editing it out here to try and be considerate. Apologies. Seeyas and spare me a text wall!
	8 years ago	Post 146 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers. Ok. So who's a "regular fan"...? I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not sure what's ambiguous about my question. You said "I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense." You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...? I've been told that you make your living flipping CGC yellow labels on Ebay. Is this true? If so then my definition of a regular fan isn't you. No offense but why are you pretending to be a fan??? We get that you don't like creators charging flippers because it decreases your profits. First, who is "we"? Was there an election for CBCS board spokesman, and I missed it...? Invoking "we" to make your point seem like it has support...which may, or may not, be true...is bad form. I think it's safe to say that everyone else can speak for themselves, and don't need a representative to speak for them. Second, "you've been told"...? By whom? (I don't expect this question will be answered, but it's important to ask.) Shouldn't you get the information straight from the source, before assuming that someone telling you...in private, mind...about somebody else is accurate...? That's just basic courtesy and reason, right? Shouldn't you rather be questioning those who gossip behind other people's backs...? Third, what does "flipping" mean? If a person who buys something, then has an opportunity to upgrade to a better item, and sells the first to help pay for the second, a "flipper"...? Does someone who "flips" (which isn't at all what I do, but I digress) someone not a "regular fan" by virtue of that fact? Fourth, I make my living doing many things. Selling slabs (and no, I don't just sell SS slabs) is one of them. I have gathered tens of thousands of comics over the last nearly 30 years, but grading isn't cheap. Some of the books I have recently gotten signed are MY original owner copies that I bought in 1990. But, according to some guy named "Jack" on the CBCS board, I'm not a "regular fan" because I sell books on eBay...? I'm just "pretending" to be a fan...? Fifth, I have never attempted to hide any of this. It is not a secret. Obviously, as I have already stated in this thread, I am motivated by SELF-interest. Hello...? So why the "gotcha games" nonsense? But that doesn't mean that that self interest doesn't intersect with the interests of others, and that doesn't mean that a person is not a fan simply because they...and I'm thoroughly amazed that I have to type this ON A COMIC BOOK SLABBING MESSAGE BOARD...sell comics! (GASP!!) Are you aware that the vast, vast majority of comic shop owners...you know, those guys who sell comics for a living...started as fans themselves...? Oh yes. And creators? You know, those guys who ALSO sell comics? Same thing. And a lot of the people who work at comic book publishers. All started as fans. Dirty flippers! I will ask you AGAIN, since you have not answered the question: what makes someone a "regular fan", and what distinction separates them from a "flipper"...? PS. I'm particularly amused by the use of the phrase "no offense", followed IMMEDIATELY by the question "why are you pretending to be a fan???" with not one, not TWO, but THREE question marks!
	8 years ago	Post 147 • IP flag post

Collector

16.89K

DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user

plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics

I'll never get out of it completely. There are some signatures that aren't worth the effort, Stan Lee, Frank Miller and Todd McFarlane being three of them. There will always be deals to be had, and as I stated earlier, not everyone is paying the same price for witnessed sigs.

As a collector, I have no problem getting Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee to sign a book for me for free and have it red labeled. It's for my personal collection and I'm the one who has to be satisfied, not an unknown faceless customer on eBay.

That's fine for you, but that's not a valid argument for everyone else. If I like the SS program, why would I have to be content to "have it red labeled" (which didn't even exist a few years ago)...?

That's just "how you collect sucks, and how I collect rules."

Because, eventually creators are going to find out about the reb label program, too, and some of them are going to want a piece of THAT cake, too.

I can just imagine the scenario: "are you going to get this slabbed, either now, or any time in the future...?"

It's just silly, as I'm sure you'll agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by occ
If it's a creator who only charges and doesn't offer free signatures, then I may pass depending on the price and how bad I want it.

I added to that post above, in case you were interested.

There's a lot to unpack here.

1. I never said "how you collect sucks, and how I collect rules.". Don't put words in my mouth, and use false quotes of things I never posted or meant. You asked a question and I answered. If you're wondering what I meant, then ask me, but don't make assumptions.

You didn't say it, but you definitely implied it, even if you didn't mean to. Here, I'll quote you:

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ
As a collector, I have no problem getting Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee to sign a book for me for free and have it red labeled. It's for my personal collection and I'm the one who has to be satisfied, not an unknown faceless customer on eBay.

The IMPLICATION of that statement, in the context of this discussion, was that if a red label is fine for you, why does anyone need a yellow label? That's great that you, personally, have no problem with getting a red label...others, on the other hand, DO have a problem with the red label, and want a yellow label. That's great that you like red labels, but that's not relevant to this discussion, which is about yellow labels.

I didn't put words in your mouth, or falsely attribute a quote to you. Quotation marks don't mean I am necessarily quoting YOU. I said "That's just "how you collect sucks, and how I collect rules."" which is an old cliche used for many years on the CGC board, and used here, too.

To word it in a way you might find less objectionable, "that's just" means "that's just another manifestation of the old cliche that says "what you collect sucks, what I collect rules."

In other words...the way you do it, personally, is perfectly fine, implying (even unintentionally) that it should be fine for others. I didn't wonder what you meant, so no need to ask.

And people wonder why "walls of text" are necessary...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ

2. If you like yellow label books, that's fine. If the price is right I'll add yellow labels to my collection, but I am content with red labels.

Ok. That's great, really. But this discussion isn't about red labels, right...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ
3. Red labeled books rarely add value to any book. In most cases it actually decreases value much like the dreaded greens from CGC. I've picked up several red labeled books at a fraction of the price when compared to a blue universal.

You're making my point. Here's how:

Red labels rarely add value to any book. Granted.

But YELLOW labels also don't always add value to any book, for all the sundry reasons laid out earlier in this thread.

And yet, creators BELIEVE that they DO, or they wouldn't be charging the upcharge...right?

So, if they don't care to find out the reality about YELLOW labels...what makes you think they're going to care about the reality of RED...?

See? They don't make the distinction NOW about how their signature affects value...what on earth makes anyone think they're going to make that distinction with ANOTHER color label...?

They will see "Signed by So and So" (and THEY are So and So) and they will see it selling for whatever price, and they'll want a piece of THAT, too.

Do you think you're going to be able to explain the difference to them...? Many of them don't want to hear it NOW; how will the red labels be any different? And when someone says "oh, those are UNWITNESSED sigs", they'll say "so? It's still my sig. Look, that's my signature on a Spawn #1 (says Todd), and they're trying to sell it for $150!

And if they happen to understand the distinction, after someone explains it to them, they'll start saying "if your book is going to be slabbed now or in the future, I'm going to charge you more." Because they don't care that it was unwitnessed; they only care that it is in a SLAB and someone's "making money" and it ain't them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ

Just because I sometimes flip books doesn't mean I will always make money, or completely in it for the cash. I've had people on this very board cut me deals and sell me books at a cost that is lower than FMV, and I am grateful to them for doing so.

I've also sold books at a fraction of what I could make, sometimes even at a loss. I once sold a 9.8 valued at around $110 for $25 to a kid who just awwed over it. His $25 didn't even cover my grading and shipping costs, but he was happy and appreciated it and I knew it was going to someone who really valued it.

Not sure what any of this has to do with the discussion, other than virtue signalling, but hey, there you go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ
Another thing I'll point out that charging for signatures has done for the hobby is accessibility to getting autographs. Before this whole thing blew up you might have had to wait a few years for an artist to do a con, or be lucky enough to catch them in a shop, now I can find people on a regular basis that are holding private signings at least a few times a year.

No doubt! No argument from me! While I might disagree with your contention that charging brought creators out in general, it IS TRUE that charging did convince SOME of them to come out, so you get no argument from me on that point.

Throwing bucketfuls of cash at Frank Miller convinced him to sign. I don't agree with this motivation, and the they absolutely took advantage of the emotions of fanboys (mainly fear), but the fact is, it got him out.

Whether that's due to "charging for signatures", or just the general euphoria of the comics market in general is hard to pin down...but I don't doubt it plays some role.

8 years ago

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Towmater @X51 Sounds like you had some really real world choices to make. It looks like those really real world factors hampered your ability to take the job. I'm not a fan of turning a hobby into work. I'd rather turn work into a hobby. Seriously though, I work at a place that changes the world. I work with brilliant people that have patents in their name. I learn something new every week. Today, I might take a pay cut and find a job where I could chill. I still don't think I want my hobby to be what I'm forced to do everyday. That isn't fun to me. I think I'm capable of starting my own store. I don't need to work for someone else if I want to run a comic book store.
	8 years ago	Post 149 • IP flag post

I'm a #2. 11.57K	11.57K BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics I'm not going to lie, I do collect books, but I also flip a lot of books. The books I flip i have zero attachment to. I'm in it strictly for the money. I minimise risk by picking up books on the cheap, slab them, and if it makes economic sense, I have them signed to increase their value. There are a lot of assumptions made in this thread. 1. Never assume that every flipper is paying the same amount that you are for a creator to sign their book. 2. Never assume that every flipper purchased the book at the same price you did. 3. Never assume that a book you find today will have the same fair market value in the amount of time it takes to get the book signed and graded. 12 weeks is a long time. 4. Don't let anyone kid you. Slabbing books, Especially these moderns, is done strictly for the perceived added value the label brings. The artist signing knows it, the Grading Companies know it and indeed the Flippers Know it. There is simply no other logical reason one would pay the high cost of slabbing. Please don't bring up protection, there are way more economical ways to safely protect ones comic books.
	8 years ago	Post 150 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by dpiercy Who cares, guys? Pay or don't; the debate/argument is getting circular and has been had on here M A N Y times. I don't agree w/charging more for authentication/slabbing, but everything is trending that way. Edit - I posted something potentially inflammatory and I'm editing it out here to try and be considerate. Apologies. Seeyas and spare me a text wall! Hey, dpiercy: not to be "that guy", but here are the new rules...you may want to brush up on them. https://forum.cbcscomics.com/topic/4399/page/1/new-message-board-atmosphere/ Edit: thanks for removing the personal commentary. As for "who cares", I do. Is that not enough reason to discuss it? Clearly, others do, too.
	8 years ago	Post 151 • IP flag post

Collector 85	85 Jack private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers. Ok. So who's a "regular fan"...? I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not sure what's ambiguous about my question. You said "I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense." You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...? I've been told that you make your living flipping CGC yellow labels on Ebay. Is this true? If so then my definition of a regular fan isn't you. No offense but why are you pretending to be a fan??? We get that you don't like creators charging flippers because it decreases your profits. First, who is "we"? Was there an election for CBCS board spokesman, and I missed it...? Invoking "we" to make your point seem like it has support...which may, or may not, be true...is bad form. I think it's safe to say that everyone else can speak for themselves, and don't need a representative to speak for them. Second, "you've been told"...? By whom? (I don't expect this question will be answered, but it's important to ask.) Shouldn't you get the information straight from the source, before assuming that someone telling you...in private, mind...about somebody else is accurate...? That's just basic courtesy and reason, right? Shouldn't you rather be questioning those who gossip behind other people's backs...? Third, what does "flipping" mean? If a person who buys something, then has an opportunity to upgrade to a better item, and sells the first to help pay for the second, a "flipper"...? Does someone who "flips" (which isn't at all what I do, but I digress) someone not a "regular fan" by virtue of that fact? Fourth, I make my living doing many things. Selling slabs (and no, I don't just sell SS slabs) is one of them. I have gathered tens of thousands of comics over the last nearly 30 years, but grading isn't cheap. Some of the books I have recently gotten signed are MY original owner copies that I bought in 1990. But, according to some guy named "Jack" on the CBCS board, I'm not a "regular fan" because I sell books on eBay...? I'm just "pretending" to be a fan...? Fifth, I have never attempted to hide any of this. It is not a secret. Obviously, as I have already stated in this thread, I am motivated by SELF-interest. Hello...? So why the "gotcha games" nonsense? But that doesn't mean that that self interest doesn't intersect with the interests of others, and that doesn't mean that a person is not a fan simply because they...and I'm thoroughly amazed that I have to type this ON A COMIC BOOK SLABBING MESSAGE BOARD...sell comics! (GASP!!) Are you aware that the vast, vast majority of comic shop owners...you know, those guys who sell comics for a living...started as fans themselves...? Oh yes. And creators? You know, those guys who ALSO sell comics? Same thing. And a lot of the people who work at comic book publishers. All started as fans. Dirty flippers! I will ask you AGAIN, since you have not answered the question: what makes someone a "regular fan", and what distinction separates them from a "flipper"...? PS. I'm particularly amused by the use of the phrase "no offense", followed IMMEDIATELY by the question "why are you pretending to be a fan???" with not one, not TWO, but THREE question marks! I've already answered your question. [53, 460, 8.7:1] [original message word count, reply word count, reply ratio]
	8 years ago	Post 152 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944 Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics I'm not going to lie, I do collect books, but I also flip a lot of books. The books I flip i have zero attachment to. I'm in it strictly for the money. I minimise risk by picking up books on the cheap, slab them, and if it makes economic sense, I have them signed to increase their value. There are a lot of assumptions made in this thread. 1. Never assume that every flipper is paying the same amount that you are for a creator to sign their book. 2. Never assume that every flipper purchased the book at the same price you did. 3. Never assume that a book you find today will have the same fair market value in the amount of time it takes to get the book signed and graded. 12 weeks is a long time. 4. Don't let anyone kid you. Slabbing books, Especially these moderns, is done strictly for the perceived added value the label brings. The artist signing knows it, the Grading Companies know it and indeed the Flippers Know it. There is simply no other logical reason one would pay the high cost of slabbing. Please don't bring up protection, there are way more economical ways to safely protect ones comic books. Really...? So you think I got this slabbed "strictly for the perceived added value"...? And it begs the question: just who do you believe is BUYING these books...? Other flippers...?
	8 years ago	Post 153 • IP flag post

Collector

16.89K

DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user

plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers.

Ok.

So who's a "regular fan"...?
I'm not sure what you're asking.

I'm not sure what's ambiguous about my question. You said "I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense."

You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...?

I've been told that you make your living flipping CGC yellow labels on Ebay. Is this true? If so then my definition of a regular fan isn't you. No offense but why are you pretending to be a fan??? We get that you don't like creators charging flippers because it decreases your profits.

First, who is "we"? Was there an election for CBCS board spokesman, and I missed it...?

Invoking "we" to make your point seem like it has support...which may, or may not, be true...is bad form. I think it's safe to say that everyone else can speak for themselves, and don't need a representative to speak for them.

Second, "you've been told"...? By whom? (I don't expect this question will be answered, but it's important to ask.)

Shouldn't you get the information straight from the source, before assuming that someone telling you...in private, mind...about somebody else is accurate...? That's just basic courtesy and reason, right? Shouldn't you rather be questioning those who gossip behind other people's backs...?

Third, what does "flipping" mean? If a person who buys something, then has an opportunity to upgrade to a better item, and sells the first to help pay for the second, a "flipper"...?

Does someone who "flips" (which isn't at all what I do, but I digress) someone not a "regular fan" by virtue of that fact?

Fourth, I make my living doing many things. Selling slabs (and no, I don't just sell SS slabs) is one of them. I have gathered tens of thousands of comics over the last nearly 30 years, but grading isn't cheap. Some of the books I have recently gotten signed are MY original owner copies that I bought in 1990. But, according to some guy named "Jack" on the CBCS board, I'm not a "regular fan" because I sell books on eBay...? I'm just "pretending" to be a fan...?

Fifth, I have never attempted to hide any of this. It is not a secret. Obviously, as I have already stated in this thread, I am motivated by SELF-interest. Hello...? So why the "gotcha games" nonsense?

But that doesn't mean that that self interest doesn't intersect with the interests of others, and that doesn't mean that a person is not a fan simply because they...and I'm thoroughly amazed that I have to type this ON A COMIC BOOK SLABBING MESSAGE BOARD...sell comics! (GASP!!)

Are you aware that the vast, vast majority of comic shop owners...you know, those guys who sell comics for a living...started as fans themselves...? Oh yes. And creators? You know, those guys who ALSO sell comics? Same thing. And a lot of the people who work at comic book publishers.

All started as fans.

Dirty flippers!

I will ask you AGAIN, since you have not answered the question: what makes someone a "regular fan", and what distinction separates them from a "flipper"...?

PS. I'm particularly amused by the use of the phrase "no offense", followed IMMEDIATELY by the question "why are you pretending to be a fan???" with not one, not TWO, but THREE question marks!

I've already answered your question.

You have...?

I must have missed it. All I can extrapolate is that someone who sells books is NOT a "regular fan"...I don't see ANYWHERE where you define what IS a "regular fan."

Can you define what you think IS, rather than what is NOT, a "regular fan"...?

After all, your entire contention rests on the distinction between those two, but you haven't defined what that distinction actually is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack

[53, 460, 8.7:1]

[original message word count, reply word count, reply ratio]

And this is relevant to anything, because........?

(Although, don't think the attention to detail escaped my notice!

)

8 years ago

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0

	8 years ago	Post 155 • IP flag post

638897 266 30

« Forum Home

Pages:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

This topic is archived. Start new topic?