Dispelling the myth of the INCENTIVE variant4358

Originally Posted by Tedsaid

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Originally Posted by DocBrown
No...they're not lying. Those ratios are for ordering purposes only.

Let me say it again: those ratios are for ordering purposes only.

They have nothing to do with the print runs of any of the books involved.

There's nothing implied, nor should anything be inferred, beyond what Marvel, DC, and other ratio incentive publishers say up front: "you order X copies of the regular, you get 1 copy of the variant."

I think this is the main point you make, Doc, that I disagree with. Of course a 1:100 variant implies a 1 to 100 print ratio.

Originally Posted by tedsaid
This is how any reasonable person would interpret it. And it is how the marketplace interprets it. (Which is why you have been at pains to explain your theory over the years.)

Originally Posted by tedsaid
You claim that DC and Marvel have never made this implied promise explicit, and I can't say that I have different information. I haven't asked them. But given how speculative your theory is, that the ratio on printing implication is wrong, I don't think your opinion carries much weight here. Have you spoken to the publishers on this issue? Or do you have any additional (i.e., factual) information? If what you say is true, and the publishers routinely print many extra copies of rare variants, then they are being systematically deceitful. I disagree.

Originally Posted by tedsaid
Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBrown
Because the PUBLISHERS, NOT DIAMOND, determines what happens with the additional copies they printed. Diamond has nothing whatsoever to do with those extra copies.

Well, they wouldn't print any extra copies as a matter of course, except to cover manufacturing defects, and perhaps a little cheating by the printer on the sly.

Originally Posted by tedsaid
But from my example above, Diamond (I'm assuming) ALSO has an incentive to order in groups of 100, and ALSO gets incentive copies. I don't know how it is now, but years ago (okay, decades) when I worked at my LCS, the owner would often pick up extra copies of hot comics, if he could. This happened with Batman #428, and The Dark Knight Returns. Which implies that Diamond routinely orders a few extra copies to sell when comic shop owners change their mind and want more.

Originally Posted by tedsaid
Diamond can't do this for every comic, and they can't risk doing it very much. But they are leaving money on the table and hurting their comic shops if they don't have a little extra here and there. Maybe it's only a few % higher, or maybe it depends on past trends. Diamond would be smart to gauge this sort of thing and try to be flexible.

So in my example above, Diamond might increase their order to 90,000, instead of 89,000. They would get 900 of the variant, and have to give only 650 of these to the comic stores. (This is because some comic stores might order 60 and not get any of the 1:100 variant; or perhaps 160 and get only 1. That's what I meant by "non-ratio-based sales to stores." ) In this example, Diamond has about 1% extra of the main comic to sell to comic shop owners, AND they have about 250 extra (very rare) variants.

If you have different information on how Diamond operates today, Doc, then I welcome your correction. But if you are just guessing, then I think my guess is better than yours. :-)

Originally Posted by shrewbeer
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Originally Posted by DocBrown
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Originally Posted by shrewbeer
@DocBrown its pointless arguing. You can live in your black and white world speculating on nothing, and I'll live in mine; I like life a bit more colorful.

Just because you don't understand how the process works...and just because you're offended that someone would dare say that out loud...doesn't mean that the other party is "speculating on nothing."

I have explained...exhaustively...the issues involved here. I presented an argument. You weren't required to respond, but respond you did. Your choice.

Have you considered that perhaps someone knows more than you about this...?

After all...you didn't even understand how the Statements of Ownership worked, and thought that the average print run PER ISSUE needed to be further divided by 12, to come up with an "average print run" of 24k...or, perhaps 40k...copies of ASM #300, as reported in the SOO in ASM #315.

A relatively careful reading would have shown you that those numbers were not to be taken as the whole, but rather clearly stated that those numbers are PER ISSUE:




This is from New X-Men #135, but it's essentially the same. Look at line item #15A: "Total No. Copies Printed (net press run): Average no. copies printed EACH ISSUE during preceding 12 months..."

(emphasis added)

And that phrase, "each issue", is repeated in parts B and C and D and E and F and G and I (!) "Each issue" is repeated no less than ELEVEN times in section 15.

And, if that wasn't enough, one can use the "issue closest to filing date" to see that, if the issue nearest to filing date was 154,742 (15A), then the AVERAGE couldn't possibly be 234,871 for the entire 12 months, unless the average for the OTHER 11 months was only 6,677 copies! Obviously, that's not right.

It's sloppy and careless. It's not critical thinking. And it wouldn't be a problem, except that you carry this sloppy carelessness around with you, and then make haughty, demeaning statements like the one that began your post here. And when someone corrects you, if it's not phrased the way you like, or it comes from a source you don't like, your hackels go up.

Perhaps the proud one here, the one who can't be reasoned with, the one who thinks he knows everything...ISN'T me.

Maybe.

As someone else has said "some food for thought."

Why set up a straw man when you are already accusing others of it?

Go back and read the Thread you are referring to here. We BOTH pulled our numbers off comichron, I clearly posted a pic of the screen I was reading, and yes I read that particular screen wrong (and was happy to admit it, see screenshot below). It was NOT the pic you just posted. Not even close.

So now you're just making things up, when anyone can go back to that thread to see the truth. Wtf?

And then accuse ME of being the one that cannot be reasoned with? Lmfao. Also, as far as I know, purposefully lying in a post with false information as you have done above, is punishable by ban.

I'm always open to correction around here, I'm here to learn. From honest folks. Folks who are here because they love books, not because they just want to pointlessly argue til the cows come home

Originally Posted by KatKomics
Ok...super tangentaly related....I grew up in Southern Ontario and we used to have lots of manufacturing (GM, Ford, Ferranti Packard etc. etc.) Apparently once, a night shift got fired at GM because they found the dies/stamps and ran some 1950's era brake drums (maybe also other parts)..doubt it was the first time...probably the last.

At my current place a line manager was caught..supposedly coming in on the weekends to catch up on paper work..leaving with his truck full of product. His family runs a diner so it is likely that they and others were getting free/heavily discounted product for a while. As manager he would know the production runs and the allowable losses on physical counts...that he would sign off on.

I'm sure there are controls in place..but as they say, where there's a will there's a way.

Originally Posted by Tedsaid
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Originally Posted by conditionfreak
He said his brother owns the company that makes these cards. And that when the company puts out a limited edition card. They ALWAYS make a bunch more. Because they aren't stupid. They know that many times limited editions of anything develop a higher secondary market value than original price.

So why would a company NOT do this in the comic book field, where a book can go from $4.99 to $199.00 virtually overnight? There are plenty of family, friends and business arrangements that can move these items for the extremely high profits. And dodge corporate taxes to boot. Win-win for the company, or just for the lower level employee who prints these things up. You don't really think there are guards watching these things made, and counting them. Do you?

It's a valid point. I think it is the crux of Doc's argument. (Besides the claim that ordering ratios have nothing to do with print ratios.) But here's what I think:

I think they DO put serious controls on a rare variant comic that will sell for $200+. It may only cost pennies to produce extras, but it's really a $200 book. They don't let a lot of those slip through.

Imagine the print shop owner. Maybe he tells his production manager, "Print me an extra ten copies of every 1:100 variant. Don't tell Marvel." Now the production manager tells his line manager, "Make an extra 15 copies, don't tell anyone." And the line manager wants a couple extra, and tells his guys to get one for themselves if they want, and they end up with maybe 20 or 25 extra - very rare - comic books.

It could happen, and probably does. But it's very easy for this "open secret" to get out, so everyone involved has to be careful.

Because Marvel KNOWS it's not a $4.99 book, but a $200 book. (Or more.) So yeah, I think they have some controls in place to prevent significant fraud, in the comic book industry. The owner doesn't want to risk losing millions in annual revenue for 10 or 20 comic books. And, IMO, there is no way they will risk routinely printing HUNDREDS of extras in this way. It's too easy to get caught and loose your job / business.

"Follow the money" is great advice. In this instance, I think most of the money is in keeping Marvel happy, not schlepping a few comics on eBay and risking your job or career.

Originally Posted by shrewbeer
@DocBrown your post clearly states that I should have read the SOO, should have understood the SOO, when It was posted after my comment. You entire post was deceptive, in an attempt to "prove" that I was "sloppy".

Originally Posted by drchaos

Originally Posted by DocBrown

Originally Posted by conditionfreak
Valid points yourself. But if I have observed anything in life. I have observed that it is amazing what people will do for a relatively small amount of money. And one man's "small amount of money" is another man's small fortune.

Originally Posted by det_tobor
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Originally Posted by conditionfreak
Oh, make no mistake about it. I LOVE a good debate. Not an argument, but a debate. Sometimes I fight for a stance on a subject that I don't even agree with. It's fun.

But I know that some people don't handle strife well. The internet is not the place for people like that. They should read books about rainbows and unicorns.

BUT you also know that some people forget "rules" and think they can say whatever they want always. They forget the rule of thumb: No shouting "fire" in a movie theatre. There are established limitations. Self editing may be a necessity.