TOM REILLY PEDIGREE a bit of proper history2037
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| TOM REILLY PEDIGREE COLLECTION Update on some aspects of its Proper History. It has been brought to my attention once again some fools over on the CGC "Gold" boards wish to continue to demonstrate their stupidity credibility regarding the concept they know more about this fabled batch of funny books than I do. That some how the upstarts running CGC who wish to pass themselves off as comics "experts" some how know more about the Reilly collection than I do. I remain amused by their libelous antics especially of that Liar Steve Carey from California who goes by the moniker SACentaur. His babblings remain especially humorous. If you are interested in history of "pedigree" comic book collections, some say the Tom Reilly comic book collection of approximately 4000 issues dating from summer of 1939 thru the summer of 1945 stands as the "second best" of such-named collections after the legendary fabled Edgar Church collection fell in to the hands of Colorado-based dealer Charles Rozanski and his wife half a decade later in the late 1970s operating for decades now as Mile High Comics. Many have voiced over the years that placed side by side the Reilly copies in many instances have whiter paper, brighter colors, hence, actually more desirable. There are some honest souls there in CGC plastic-coffin commodity-land truly trying to puzzle thru the data which emerged from my questioning the three batches of heirs to the estate at the time. Once upon a time I attempted in those CGC chat rooms to share my knowledge of this misunderstood fabled collection. One could not pay me enough to step back in to the ponzi scheme fraud which remains CGC. Doctor Arnheim and his wife lived in Moraga, Calif. They related to me Tom Reilly's parents lived in Piedmont, Calif, a sub-set of the larger city of Oakland, Calif. Piedmont was for many decades the "Beverley Hills" of Oakland where wealthy white folks lived. It would take some one of financial means to purchase literally one of every comic book being published from Dec 1941 thru the summer of 1945 then placing them unread in to their son's bedroom awaiting his return from the Second World War. Seems Tom had begun buying comic books in the summer of 1939 in time to have scored a Detective Comics #27. He enlisted the same week as Pearl Harbor in Dec 1941 were told. I was asking each batch of relatives questions seeking to learn how so many late 30s thru mid 45 comic books could have preserved themselves in such white paper glossy high grade. Keep in mind this was still years before "Mile High" copies surfaced. Off in to the Pacific Theater he went going thru the entire war only to be killed in a kamikaze attack some time during the summer of 1945. His grieving parents then sealed his room, themselves dying in Dec 1972. Three sets of relatives divided up the Reilly estate. The comic books were merely rough counted in to three same size batches. There was no rhyme nor reason what ended up in which batch. That much was evident with what was in each when they began to be sold to us. When Doctor Arnheim and his wife brought the first third of this fabled collection to the Berkeleycon 73 we hosted in the ASUC Building on the UC-Berkeley campus on Sunday April 22 1973, there were two lost souls who first encountered these trusting old folks named Nick Marcus and Mike Manyak. Mike seemingly has attempted to pass himself off as some sort of expert on this collection. I find the concept laughable if that is indeed what has been transpiring Nick and Mike flipped thru that first batch, pulled out all the Timely issues including Captain America #1 and proceeded to pay the unsuspecting owners all of a buck each. As in one dollar each for NM/M Timely issues. A buck each for NM/M white paper Timely issues. I showed Doctor Arnheim the then current Overstreet comic book price guide #2 as others were trying to get these high grade comics dirt cheap. Ethics? You judge. Doctor Arnheim was visibly upset when he asked me specifically to look up and inform him of the value of a NM Captain America #1. More Ethics? You be the judge on that note. Mayhaps ask Steve Carey. He is the one who steals things from others. Upon hearing what a Captain America #1 actually was worth Dr Arnheim all of a sudden got a perturbed look in his face, then closed down any one looking thru the comics, got the ASUC building guy to wheel the pallet loader full of comics back down to their car and away they drove off. A Keystone Cops antics scenario developed with some of us following them to their house where we talked with them. I left them that same copy of Overstreet #2. Also part of the "Keystone Kops" was David Belmont (then of Rochester NY) and Bob Selvig (then of Minneapolis area). They proceeded to wait in a motel near our Berkeley store located at 2512 Telegraph Ave. A few days later as head vintage comics purchaser of our first comic book store Ye Olde Berkeley Comics Art Shoppe at the Arnheim house in Moraga Calif myself and Jon Campbell bought this collection for 40% of Guide #2. There were three "lots" involved of us with our store, Belmont and Selvig. We were up all night dividing up this batch of perfect shape mostly never read comic books. A tip of the ice berg which turned out to be merely the first third of this estate because a week or so later a second batch of relatives walked in an equal amount of high grade NM comics to sell to us. This time we at our Berkeley comic book store absorbed the entire batch all by ourselves. When I say "we" I mean the late John Barrett, myself Robert Beerbohm and Bud Plant. We paid this second sets of relatives 60% of Overstreet #2 Guide. At the time when sizing up what had been in Batch #1 and Batch #2 compared to what was NOT in both of these batches put together, one of the first things I said was there HAD to be more comic books. I was slowly becoming beside myself pondering the concept. I called up those first two relative sets saying there had to be more comics as the gaps in what we had picked up made no sense. I had long before realized that large collections had to make sense. I hope this statement makes sense as well  About a month later a 3rd batch of relatives who lived back east walked in with another batch of well over a thousand mint Golden Age comic books. We paid 60% of Overstreet #3 as the "new" Guide had just been issued. Ethics? You judge. Closer to 1300+ or so was in each batch. Added up there were approx 4000 in total is the count I had made up extrapolating what Nick and Mike had "bought" in Timely issues from the Arnheims that hour or so the Arnheims were at the Berkeleycon on Sunday afternoon. There was some duplication which is understandable when one of each was being sought awaiting the return of their son from the war. Who was actually keeping inventory control back in the 1940s over some funny books? MOST of the Reilly copies had neither the lower back cover rubber stamp nor any sort of Gilboy Agency "G" pencil arrival dates. MOST Reilly copies are lost in to the mists of time and mercantiling of collections over the decades since they surfaced. By CGC (sub)-standards of actual comics knowledge then ANY high grade comic book with "G" markings would be a Tom Reilly copy. Huh? Any one who knows any thing approaching a modicum of knowledge about comic book distributor inventory "control" back then knows on any given batch coming from ID to a periodical retailer mostly it was the top copy of any given batch of a title which had the "arrival" data and copy count on it. The CGC and other slab people who continue to dub this "San Francisco" copies merely continue to display their ignorance of how the collection became to be dubbed thusly. Along with other Bay Area comics dealers I was coming down from the Bay Area to the LA area setting up at shows on a near monthly basis. Then-novice LA dealer Ron Pussell (long before he moved to Nevada) was exclaiming "Frisco" copies - NOT San Francisco - at LA area shows like David T Alexander and Terry Stroud hosted Super Sundays then in the Hollywood area, or San Diego Comic-Con International shows. Ron was then smitten with a "Mile High" collection acquisition bug. This is akin to ALL of the Los Angeles basin area simply being known as LA to those from northern Calif. The state of California is two different universes in all actuality. Is CGC the be-all, end-all of comics lore knowledge? Hardly I humbly submit that after 18 years of continuously being re-invited back thru the good graces of owner Steve Geppi in to the pages of Overstreet to teach proper comics business history, I just might know what I am talking about as some one who was "there" every step of the way when the Reilly collection surfaced as well as was sold off. It was the proceeds off the sale of this collection which led us expanding that first Comics & Comix Store #1 in to the USA's first comic book chain store operation with new stores in Lost San Francisco, San Jose and Sacramento by the end of that very summer. There is more to this story. I merely post some of the highlights to a very thrilling experience of personally handling 7/9s of the Reilly collection. When I sold the Whiz Comics 2 (#1) to Burrell Rowe then of Houston for two grand it was the very first time a comic book hit that number A week later Burrell and I worked out $2200 on the Reilly Detective Comics #27 which became the first comic book ever to bust over the two grand number. It garnered nationwide AP/UPI wire stories. I ended up collecting over 70 newspaper articles - many with pictures - of this event. Within a month we had bought 3 more Tec 27s. Plus lots of other collections wandered in. Life was good By the beginning of 1974 they were all sold off scattered to the four corners of the collecting world. The concept of "pedigree" was still half a decade away. Those self-described "experts" in CGC-Fantasy Land continuously attacked my "credibility" remain ignorantly stupid thinking they know any thing about this fabled collection. They can continue thinking they do. I honestly do not care. They were not there.     |
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| and here is a link to Facebook page discussing the Tom Reilly collection in further depth for those who might have a hankering https://www.facebook.com/robert.beerbohm/posts/10210686734397683 |
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| I know you're venting, but that was a great read. I know nothing of any of this and your detail made me feel like I was there...very cool ..and thanks for the insight. Glad you posted it. | ||
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O.G.   |
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| I remember "Comics & Comix Store #1" on Irving Street between 17th and 18th Streets. I was able to trade them $60.00 worth of comics for their $30.00 TIMELY CAPTAIN AMERICA #37. Last year I had it grade by CBCS and it came back at a 4.5. I don't think this was part of the "TOM REILLY" collection but I did buy many a comic book from them including a LARGE amount of HOWARD THE DUCK magazines #1 (which I still have). | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by Watcher There are many levels built in to this stream of memory jog laying down pieces of the proper story. I take comics business history being taught properly very seriously. Witness being asked back in to fronting the "origins" of the American comic book inside Steve Geppi's Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide every year since first invited back in Oct 1996. "Venting" might be too strong a word in the sense I have been subjected to some rather intense BS chatter over inside those CGC "chat" boards for some time since CGC popped the bottom staple off a nice All Star #8 and got packaging tape on a previously very nice ALl Star #7. There were those there who became blatant bold faced liars spouting a lot of crazy BS as if in the outside HQ employ of the owner of CGC. CGC "Mods" were deleting my posts but allowing lies about me being bandied about by a small group sending threads in dozens of different directions as if orchestrated. CGC people at the time were quite adamant they had little to do with and/or control over those "independent" chat rooms. Liars covering up with more liars who are heavily vested in to covering up the dark underbelly of the comics hype propaganda manipulations of "big bucks" comics and how to get there from here. They might forget I was one of a small group who helped invent the concept. Back then we knew for sure who the buyers and sellers were on the "big bucks" books. Now, that aspect of knowing sales are "real" is shall we say somewhat clouded. Shilling on an international internet level crowded in. But then some of them over there in CGC chat room "boards" seem to be beside themselves on quite a few levels. Ummmm, excuse me? But then last year along comes CGC owners dictating that ALL threads begun over there concerning their bogus plastic slab hurting the artifacts were unceremoniously deleted. They morphed in to being arrogant blatant liars. And there have been other things going on which leads me to begin a post thread here to discuss all of them if that is OK with the Steves in HQ of CBCS. I have felt first hand the brunt of the monopolistic arrogance the owner of CGC. My long time friend Steve Geppi told me on the phone, "Yeah, you took quite a hit off that one" as we discussed there was never any compensation for in-house damage to All Star 7 and especially the #8. See, I heartily welcome CBCS in to the mix. Have stated thusly since their inception. The CGC-centrics spent a lot of effort and malice of forethought conjuring up bold faced lies about me, my credibility, and made attacks eBay calls "Intent to Disrupt" on my store BLBcomics which I opened April 1998 as I had grown tired and bored with comic book stores having spent 22 years 1972-1994 inside such caves. After Rick Griffin was killed in 1991 my mind had to reconnect post grief which saw me seeking to travel once again. This time to unearth the earliest origins and beginnings of the comic strip magazine book in America. Some time after he died my long time friends Jack and Roz Kirby came over from Jack's last Wondercon then still in Oakland to Fisherman's Wharf for a just the two of them dinner. By cosmic happenstance their post dinner stroll took them in to The Cannery's environs. I was on the phone when all of a sudden I said to whomever I was talking to, "I gotta go. I think Jack Kirby and his wife Roz just walked in." We spent some time viewing Rick's originals, Jack said "A fine young artist taken away well before his time..." Rick was 47 at the time of his being killed by a delivery van blown off his motorcycle - unsignaled turn by the van driver. The guy who killed Rick came in to the gallery a year or so after it happened. That was intense as the man fell to his knees crying..... Roz and my wife Susan had become friends with the 1977 San Diego Comicon both sitting by the pool waiting for their men to stop with the comic book stuff for the night. That night the four of us went out to dinner during when I first interviewed Jack - and Roz - regarding the broken promise of royalties from Martin Goodman. Stan Lee was conduit for the owner. People relegate way too much power to Stan, but I truly digress.... That night after dinner down semi near to the El Cortez Hotel when we walked up to the Kirby's car he opened the trunk and asked me if I would like to pick out 200 pages of his original comic book art out of the 600 sitting in there. They were going to ask 3 persons to each buy 200 pages at $20 a page with proviso not to go below $35 a page so as to maintain a foundation for Jack's normal comic book pages. I picked from New Gods, FP, MM, JO, Demon, Omac, Kamandi, Devil Dinosaur, Captain America late 70s, etc I knew Jack and Roz that well I asked them what they thought I might pursue these next upcoming years as I was getting ready to close the gallery down. It was listening to Jack explain proper historical context which first got me going to explore the earliest origins of this art form we all love so much. NYC shows allowed me to hang for days afterwards conducting interviews with the likes of Irwin Donenfeld, Carmine Infantino, Ed Summer (nexus moment important with the evolution of what we came to call the Direct Market), and many others. I was also handing out multi-page questionnaires which I have some X hundreds of them from friends who worked all levels of the distribution/publishing/retailing growth of the 60s 70s coming thru the 80s till 1994 when Marvel comics killed the DM as we once knew it. NYPL, NY Historical Society, etc Baltimore shows bought me time to hang around inside Library of Congress going thru archives. Ohio shows gained time spent at OSU. Chicago post show to Univ of WIsc. Then there was all the time spent with Randy Scott at MSU going thru the vast archives there. So I begin this thread musing over aspects of the comics world as it all inter-connects, does it not? The Tom Reilly collection in toto those months of April May June July August 1973 handling them all. Seeing all of these mythical "Golden Age" comic books from summer 1939 thru summer 1945 with the vast majority most in white paper unread unhandled NM/M was a bit overwhelming on one level. It was also a hell of an education piecing a lot of data together which back then one held on a lot so as to get a leg up on "competition" in the quest many of us were on to become the largest dealer of comic books in the world. What is old is some how new again.        |
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Quote:Originally Posted by RafelQuote: Originally Posted by Rafel Here is the entrance to the first Comics and Comix Store #1 address of 2512 Telegraph Ave. Dunno about any #1 over on Irving St. I sold out from C&C in 1975 then opened my first solo store in Nov 1976 so by the time this pic is taken May 1977 I was taking over my ex-partners' location at 2512 Telegraph Ave near UC-Berkeley. It's all cool. Peace.  |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Watcher I agree @Watcher, that was a part of pedigrees I wasn't aware of. Although my earliest comic is a 2.0-3.0 1959 Mickey Mouse Almanac #1, I dig the origin and history of any Golden Age happening with books. I can only dream of finding a "Tec 27"...never heard it called that....let alone seeing one in person. Cool story BLB....it would be cool to find one of those "lost" books at some random estate sale. I know I'll be looking for a "R" on any GA I ever come across. One just never knows, huh? Thsnks again for the read. |
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Bob awhile back Chuck at mile high came out with the Mile High Red Raven 1 and some other stuff I don't remember all the details off the top of my head. Just curious did you stash any of the Reilly's away for a rainy day. Pretty sure you been asked that a million times |
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no1lufcfan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Fascinating read BLB  |
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georgefoo private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Bob, Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed learning about the Tom Reilly pedigree collection but it is not clear to me what triggered you to set the record straight. Can you refer us to a link (even if it is in the CGC forum) that will give us some additional background? |
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| IMO - I read it as - CGC doesn't agree that the books should receive a TOM REILLY pedigree "certification"....and instead use the SF label to signify they came out of SF...only, disregarding the past history altogether. If I was an historian...it would cause me to be argumentative since the data is there and I also. I guess, legitimizing the "R" could very well show provenance, but maybe someone from those LCS that Reilly's parents bought from.... could help. Are the relatives who owned the books from the estate willing to speak up? I understand both sides, especially since the "trail" is still loose with gravel and has limited hard evidence. I think Bob sees this too, and even though present in most cases of the o itial sales, hard evidence is lacking. Anyone can tell a good story if told repeatedly and with thought. IMO, I think Bob's passion to get history right it amicable and someone like he should try to get it right. Don't get me wrong or that I am being disrespectful...I'm just giving an opinion of what I see happened. I think the story says alot of the Reilly family and with respect to that lot if books...they also respected the books they were given. How does one change the way history is written? How does one change a key label with a company that only has word of mouth to go on? The hurdles are there, and if these books do exist..."Where in the hell are they all?" How many have actually surfaced? How many have been graded? I think I just began another treasure hunt!! |
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| Oh yeah...THAAAAAANKS BOB!! My wife is not going to be happy. :o) |
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georgefoo private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Thanks. Any time one can introduce more history and a story to a Pedigree, it enhances the collection. Certainly calling the collection the "Tom Reilly Collection" does that. It also acknowledges the memory of Mr. Reilly. No different than when the Mile High collection was renamed the Edgar Church collection. | ||
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| CGC self-deluded "experts" seem to think they ARE the comics world and all else better bow down and sing praises. An utter lack of ethics post Steve Borock leaving is an observable phenom which becomes readily apparent simply by witnessing the phenom growth of CBCS. Tom Reilly is the name of the kid for whom this accumulation of some 4000 comic books mid 1939 thru mis 1945 were bought for. Arnheim - I forget his last name - a medical doctor he was - and his wife were from whom we bought the first third of the collection. His wife was the relative to Reilly family. We - me, John Barrett and Bud Plant - split this first third with David Belmont (then of New York and advertised in Marvel Comics classified as a comics seller before moving to LA Calif to buy Carl Macek's Westwood comic book store near UCLA) and Bob Selvig (then from Minneapolis before he became partners with Terry Stroud and David Alexander as American Comic Book Company) There were two other batches of relatives we at Comics and Comix bought their entire third of this amazing collection. I do not remember their names. Both of these batches were from two diff women as a Reilly family relative as well. The 3rd batch lady was the toughest negotiator as my memory serves to me. The "Frisco" name was first applied in the late 1970s to Bay Area high grades I and other Bay Area types were bringing to LA shows by dealer Ron Pussel who was seeking high grade comic books akin to Edgar Church "Mile High" quality. In order to become "Joe Expert" with a huge advert self promo budget and manipulate the market to one's benefit some see it as trying to destroy competition which is, after all , the Wall Street monopoly model employed for, well, since futures stock markets first developed in the late 1600s with some thing called Tulip Mania one can google if one wishes to examine history as it unfolded Over on my Facebook page where I can control the horizontal and vertical I have posted on concepts first brought up in this thread I started here being very careful not to weigh in with opines but rather trying to stay on historical truth as much as possible. Former employees and customers who bought some of these comics have weighed in over on my FB page. I see 3rd party certification as an essential tool for those who do not know how to grade comic books. I see 3rd party certification as essential for first time buyer & sellers getting together on grade (and price)so there are no illusions. Especially on big buck auction transactions. I see 3rd party certification as essential if one is concerned about "enhancements" done to comic books which began way back in the 1950s actually especially if one does not know how to spot "resto" which most any one can become "expert" in simply by buying a black lite bulb, a banker's (green glass) lamp, turn off the lights and almost anything not actually printed on the paper sort of jumps out at you. It was CGC who made a choice early on to attempt to establish themselves as final expert authority on all things pertaining to comic books. Their "census" count was and remains meaningless on many levels. |
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@ZosoRocks TEC is the "official" short term for Detective Comics in the collecting community.  |
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Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Well ya learn something new every day |
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ZosoRocks private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by no1lufcfan I did...and I've been collecting a while. Time to come out of my univrrse. :o) I guess I like full names because of the "TEK" use on other comics. |
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The_Curmudgeon private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego By what reasoning is it called that? Shorthand? |
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| We been calling Detective Comics #27 by the moniker Tec 27 for more than 40 years now. With the AP/UPI wire stories on my selling the aforementioned Tom Reilly Tec 27 to Burrel Rowe then of Houston for 2200 breaking the then "magic" two grand barrier, we at Comics and Comix were blessed with buying 3 more copies that very same month as collections flowed in at a steady clip We also loves the Tek wars stuff which lives in a different part of the known universe.  |
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @The_Curmudgeon Just shorthand. Been used longer than I've been alive so I couldn't give you the history of it. It probably just sounded better than DEC 27, which also could be confused with December 27 when written. | ||
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Sorta like WDCS became short hand for Walt Disney's Comics And Stories. Keep in mind the concept of type writer with ribbon making marks on a piece of paper - mayhaps carbon paper for making dup copies. Mayhaps even on a mimeo stencil and/or ditto-master typing up price lists. We were all already paper addicts talking same language. Some f us were also learning how to talk in ERB's Tazarn lingo communicating with his brethren kin of similar persuasions. Or S&K (as in Simon & Kirby, not Stan & Kirby)  |
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| I'm glad you brought up that whole Jerry Bails' All Star 8 issue Bob. Did you ever make good with his widow after you fleeced her for her husband's comics once he died? Please, tell us more. |
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 If I could, I would. I swear.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Spurt_Hammond Is that you, Dr. Butt? |
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| There are some very interesting comments here........ | ||
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| Is Dr. Butt your nickname for Stu? | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by DrWatson From one doctor to another |
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If I could, I would. I swear.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego No. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by The_Curmudgeon Yes it is. Think DeTECtive Comics |
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The_Curmudgeon private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by JLS_Comics Yeah, yeah, I get that. But why TEC and not just DC or DTC? If it's shorthand, does it have to do with the distribution systems, and why? Who decided that was going to be the code? Sorry for hijacking your thread @BLBcomics. |
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