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Can BAS tell a real Stan Lee autograph?9621

Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
I got Stan Lee to sign this book at a convention in New Orleans in person and they can’t tell it’s real? Makes me wonder about that company. If you have a Stan Lee auto probably wouldn’t send it in to get verified just saying.
A blind Stan Lee can tell this is real. Lol
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Collector JLA555 private msg quote post Address this user
Hes issue is the older it got, hes sig got shaky making it harder to verify.
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Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLA555
Hes issue is the older it got, hes sig got shaky making it harder to verify.
it was from around 2010-2012 some where in there. Cgc had him signing at a wizard world convention.
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Collector kevinlmillard private msg quote post Address this user
It looks legit to me. This is one I had signed in person by Stan about 5 years ago. I just had it authenticated a couple of months ago by CBCS and couldn't be happier with it! I have another one I'm going to drop off with them next month for Stan.
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Collector gmellos private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLA555
Hes issue is the older it got, hes sig got shaky making it harder to verify.
it was from around 2010-2012 some where in there. Cgc had him signing at a wizard world convention.


submit to cbcs for verification
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Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmellos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLA555
Hes issue is the older it got, hes sig got shaky making it harder to verify.
it was from around 2010-2012 some where in there. Cgc had him signing at a wizard world convention.


submit to cbcs for verification


I did it got denied lol
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Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinlmillard
It looks legit to me. This is one I had signed in person by Stan about 5 years ago. I just had it authenticated a couple of months ago by CBCS and couldn't be happier with it! I have another one I'm going to drop off with them next month for Stan.


Good luck on the next one I hope it passes.
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Collector kevinlmillard private msg quote post Address this user
@Zombie_Head I know you said you had it signed in person, but after looking your signature and going back and looking at the 5 Stan signatures I have from 2009 - 2018 I can understand the discrepancy. The L and the drop in the Y are off from anything I have. All of my L's have a loop and the Y's go out strait with no drop off.
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Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user



Here’s the convention booklet and wrist band and ticket stub from his signing. Like I said it’s real they just can’t tell real from fake.
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Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Back then I didn’t care about grading and slabbing so I passed on it. I guess I should have let cgc slab it. Live and learn. I wouldn’t send any Stan Lee autos in just saying.
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Collector Bronte private msg quote post Address this user
While I would be upset at a known to me signature was denied, I also recognize signature verification is not an exact science. I would imagine it is kinda like grading a book. There isnt an exact template. It's a best guess / effort scenario.

May I ask what they charged you for the attempt?
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Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronte
While I would be upset at a known to me signature was denied, I also recognize signature verification is not an exact science. I would imagine it is kinda like grading a book. There isnt an exact template. It's a best guess / effort scenario.

May I ask what they charged you for the attempt?


It’s usually $25 but they had a special for $10 off so that’s why I sent it in. I don’t think they can tell a real one vs a fake one because his autograph changed so much over time. If they can’t tell then don’t offer the service on his autograph.
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Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinlmillard
@Zombie_Head I know you said you had it signed in person, but after looking your signature and going back and looking at the 5 Stan signatures I have from 2009 - 2018 I can understand the discrepancy. The L and the drop in the Y are off from anything I have. All of my L's have a loop and the Y's go out strait with no drop off.


Here’s my buddies that got verified from 2010. Not much different
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronte
While I would be upset at a known to me signature was denied, I also recognize signature verification is not an exact science. I would imagine it is kinda like grading a book. There isnt an exact template. It's a best guess / effort scenario.


It's much more of a science than comic grading is. From the BAS website: "Our experts analyze the ink, structure of the autograph and, when necessary, reference our database of exemplars to make a side-by-side comparison of the signature. If a signature requires us to take a deeper look, we have state of the art tools like a Pro-Scope or VSC machine at our disposal."

If you google "VSC for signature authentication", you will find the Foster+Freeman site. Go in there and look at the Questioned Document Examination (QDE) machines - especially the VSC 8000. The science behind signature verification is extensive and exact. That is why legit signatures can sometimes fail. If something happens to throw off that signature, it fails.

In short, as evidenced by other Stan Lee signatures that HAVE passed, the failed example here does not mean that Stan Lee signatures cannot be verified. In fact, it should give confidence to people that the ones that have passed are definitely legit. Just my take on this whole thing.

And remember ... failing verification does not mean it's a fake or a forgery!!!
Post 14 IP   flag post
Collector Bronte private msg quote post Address this user
Apparently, I am SEVERELY mistaken as to how I assumed it was done.

@Jesse_O
Thank you for informing me on the process.
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Collector gmellos private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronte
Apparently, I am SEVERELY mistaken as to how I assumed it was done.

@Jesse_O
Thank you for informing me on the process.


I would try to submit it again?
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Collector etapi65 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
I got Stan Lee to sign this book at a convention in New Orleans in person and they can’t tell it’s real? Makes me wonder about that company. If you have a Stan Lee auto probably wouldn’t send it in to get verified just saying.
A blind Stan Lee can tell this is real. Lol
Pretty certain the "L" got you denied. If you look at his typical sig the "L" is looped. The downstroke on the "a" doesn't cut through the rest of the "a" quite the same either. All they can do is compare it to the samples they have and let the machine do it's work; if it varies enough it won't pass. Unless you can show examples of them verifying faked sigs. I understand why you're angry, but your experience doesn't invalidate the process. There's always a risk of having sigs denied from verification whether you know them to be legit or not. I have every confidence they can spot a fake. They may also, occasionally peg one as not possible to be verified that's legitimate. It's not a bunch of dudes in a room with cigars throwing at dart boards. This is a well-established, well-respected process. Yours isn't the first to be unverified but likely authentic and it won't be the last.
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Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by etapi65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Head
I got Stan Lee to sign this book at a convention in New Orleans in person and they can’t tell it’s real? Makes me wonder about that company. If you have a Stan Lee auto probably wouldn’t send it in to get verified just saying.
A blind Stan Lee can tell this is real.

Lol
Pretty certain the "L" got you denied. If you look at his typical sig the "L" is looped. The downstroke on the "a" doesn't cut through the rest of the "a" quite the same either. All they can do is compare it to the samples they have and let the machine do it's work; if it varies enough it won't pass. Unless you can show examples of them verifying faked sigs. I understand why you're angry, but your experience doesn't invalidate the process. There's always a risk of having sigs denied from verification whether you know them to be legit or not. I have every confidence they can spot a fake. They may also, occasionally peg one as not possible to be verified that's legitimate. It's not a bunch of dudes in a room with cigars throwing at dart boards. This is a well-established, well-respected process. Yours isn't the first to be unverified but likely authentic and it won't be the last.


When someone has a real autograph and it gets denied it doesn’t give that company much credit in verifying signatures. Just saying.
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Collector Darkseid_of_town private msg quote post Address this user
Actually it gives them extraordinary credit if you understand the process of verifying signatures. For instance one of the methods used to verify signatures is predictive analysis...or for simpler terms it looks for where a signature should fall within known examples.....it then views the signature looking to see if the way each line loop and curve falls within the expected parameters...if it does not it fails.


By virture of understanding what they do write your name ten times. Let me know the minute you get any two that are perfectly identical...you wont...never. The pressure points, loops and flow of the letters will always be slightly different. Verifying signatures requires the signature being verified to fall within expected parameters given other samplings.



Now suppose you sign your name one day and are sick, or did not hardly sleep the night before..trust me, it will be noticeable within your signature to some degree...or were using a medication, or drunk, or hurried, or angry ...it might make that signature fall outside the expected parameters.


It does not mean the angry signature nor the drunk one are fakes, it simply means they deviate enough from established examples to give cause to question the signature...which means they are doing their job, questioning and verifying it as they should...


If they were just rolling a dice, or flipping a coin you might get results that match your expectations better, but as long as there is a method and science involved, there will be deviation.


If you think all things are that precise, remember it when the next coke machine kicks out your quarter because its a newer state quarter that is just enough different than other quarters to be considered bogus.
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Collector Zombie_Head private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkseid_of_town
Actually it gives them extraordinary credit if you understand the process of verifying signatures. For instance one of the methods used to verify signatures is predictive analysis...or for simpler terms it looks for where a signature should fall within known examples.....it then views the signature looking to see if the way each line loop and curve falls within the expected parameters...if it does not it fails.


By virture of understanding what they do write your name ten times. Let me know the minute you get any two that are perfectly identical...you wont...never. The pressure points, loops and flow of the letters will always be slightly different. Verifying signatures requires the signature being verified to fall within expected parameters given other samplings.



Now suppose you sign your name one day and are sick, or did not hardly sleep the night before..trust me, it will be noticeable within your signature to some degree...or were using a medication, or drunk, or hurried, or angry ...it might make that signature fall outside the expected parameters.


It does not mean the angry signature nor the drunk one are fakes, it simply means they deviate enough from established examples to give cause to question the signature...which means they are doing their job, questioning and verifying it as they should...


If they were just rolling a dice, or flipping a coin you might get results that match your expectations better, but as long as there is a method and science involved, there will be deviation.


If you think all things are that precise, remember it when the next coke machine kicks out your quarter because its a newer state quarter that is just enough different than other quarters to be considered bogus.


Sounds like they need to update some more Stan Lee autographs into their system. I’m not the only one this has happened to.
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Collector JLA555 private msg quote post Address this user
This is why cgc doesn't verify Signatures.
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Collector Wraith private msg quote post Address this user
And you won't be the last..

It's unfortunate but that's the way the system works ..

I have a todd mcfarlane sig that I know is legit as I got it direct from image comics back in the day , but I wonder it will ever pass an authentication test because it looks like he picked up or slipped the pen half way through his sig in a fashion I've not seen on other pictures of his sig before .

It's a bummer , but is what it is .
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Collector Musicmansell78 private msg quote post Address this user
I had the same thing happen to me man. I had a Web of Spider Man #1 signed by both Louis Simonson and Stan Lee. They verified the Simonson, but not the Stan Lee signature. Why would I have a book with one legit signature and then try to fake the other? Same as you man, I had it signed in person, and this is the second book of mine with Stan Lee's signature that this has happened with (also happened on a Wolverine #4).

Like you, it made me question their ability to verify signatures by Stan in his later age. After reading this thread, my take is, the process is solid (they verified a bunch of other signatures for me), but I agree that they need to input further examples of Stan Lee's signature through out the ages for a better representation of his various styles. To have 2 legit signed books come back, and hearing all the stories of others who could not have theirs verified tells me they either need to do the update, or stop offering Stan Lee verification.

That's just my 2 bucks. (I know the saying is "my 2 cents" but inflation has made my opinion worth more, ha ha!)
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