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Finch WW#38, CBCS 9.4 $275, Anyone?897

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Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan @MR_SigS,Were joking Sig. I completely get what he was saying and in digging deeper, he's correct in a lot of things, AND way wrong on others. But, as always, I respect others positions. What things am I "way wrong" about? Are you willing to say? This is not a challenge, this is a reasonable request. If you can correct me, do so, and we can all learn. PS. You respect others positions...? Even if they're wrong...? If someone believed that (insert horrific thing to believe here), would that be worthy of respect...? Why, or why not...?
	8 years ago	Post 26 • IP flag post

Collector 391	391 SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	@DocBrown,Yes Doc, I certainly do respect others positions. Whether I agree with them or not. Why is that a difficult trait to accept? As a supervisor with the gov't, on a daily basis I have meetings with other dept. heads where disagreements occur all the time. In the end, consensus wins. That's how the best decisions are generally arrived at. And because people's lives depend on our decisions, disagreements are set aside. What you find incredulous to believe is a term with which you must be unaware of. It's called, "agreeing to disagree". And it can be accomplished with cordiality, decency, kindness and most importantly, respect. As far as proof goes, every day on here, people make statements about other forum members being wrong, people say some other member doesn't know what he is talking about, they'll make statements to the effect that another member is either ill informed or miss informed. Individuals make clothes and didn't statements as if it is fact when it may or may not be. There is a person on here Who provided The proof of what we are talking about. He monitors the different threads in this forum. If he wishes to get involved and provide that same information to you or anybody else, that will be his choice. For now, unless he wishes to get involved That's the best I can do. In the end, people believe what they wish to believe for their own reasons. For myself, I could care less if people think I am wrong about something and if they wish to expend The time, effort, research and energy to prove me wrong, then I believe that it is only right that I give them the respect they deserve. Being proven right in so far as the discussion concerning comic books go, it would seem to be extraordinarily important to you for whatever reasons. For me, there are a whole host of other things that I find much more important.
	8 years ago	Post 27 • IP flag post

Collector 11.12K	11.12K MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I guess some people here will just have to decide for themselves if they want to listen to someone who freely shares proof, info, and sources or someone on the sidelines who for whatever reason won't. But unless the evidence he has that proves Doc wrong isn't shared, the claim really doesn't hold water. And I say that with all due respect. So, to your acquaintance, if you can show that Doc is wrong, please show how. Many of us want the plain truth when it can be had. That's why we point out misinformation. We don't want MORE people misinformed.
	8 years ago	Post 28 • IP flag post

Collector 391	391 SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	@MR_SigS,You know the respect that I have for you Sig. But it wouldn't be right for me to drag this person in without his permission. In retrospect, I should've kept my big fat mouth closed!
	8 years ago	Post 29 • IP flag post

Collector 4.82K	4.82K dpiercy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Are you guys talking about that CGC Census graphic I posted where less than 200 were graded in the other thread? Doc said this, "The point isn't that "oh, no, it's definitely NOT 400!"...it very well COULD be...the point is, no one but the publishers and printers know, and they're not telling. So, ANY speculation is just that: speculation." Point taken. Doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for the book. No wish on my end to argue/debate number semantics.
	8 years ago	Post 30 • IP flag post

Collector 391	391 SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	was talking to my LCS today (he has owned his store for 28 years and worked in stores before that) and he said Doc had a few things right but mostly he was flat out wrong. While some extra copies of WW 38 were definitely printed he says that at most there would have been 420 total copies ... If the print run is 40K. As well, Diamond just administers distribution according to the publishers policies. The DC does not generally open their extra, undistributed copies to Diamond. Marvel does. However, there are not hundreds or thousands it would be the print run safety margin (usually 5%). @MR_SigS, Here is the PM I received from another member on here. I didn't get his permission so I apologize to him. And this will be the very last time I'll discuss this one issue. What follows is his words. I was also correct in saying that the platinum books were rationed and distributed based on orders. As well, rationed and rationed by order are different now but have their birth well before 2004/5. At that time DC and Marvel changed how it was done because they realized that they could make more money doing so. This was because first collectors started to pay more than cover for them and then the retailers started charging more. Publishers only making money off the front end rejigged how the books were to be rationed. Regardless of how it is run, the number existing is based on the orders. If 40K of a issue are printed the maximum, before safety margin is printed, would be 400. They do not print random numbers it is all based on orders.
	8 years ago	Post 31 • IP flag post

Collector 391	391 SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Got the PM insertion screwed up but it's understandable.
	8 years ago	Post 32 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
was talking to my LCS today (he has owned his store for 28 years and worked in stores before that) and he said Doc had a few things right but mostly he was flat out wrong. While some extra copies of WW 38 were definitely printed he says that at most there would have been 420 total copies ... If the print run is 40K.

We've been over this before, but let's go over it again: according to what? How does he know that "at most there would have been 420 total copies"? Where does he get this information? Where is that information documented?

As I said before: the CGC census has 87 certification events for this book (this is up from the 86 of last week), in only a year and a half, which demonstrates that the print run is almost certainly much greater than 420 copies.

(420 copies...? What is this, the bong variant...?)

I've got credentials, if that matters to people, just as impressive (if not moreso) than your anonymous LCS owner. But credentials don't, and shouldn't, matter. The truth is all that matters, regardless of the source.

Just so you know: someone else saying "well, that guy is wrong" is not therefore proof that someone is wrong, regardless of who is saying it.

What, specifically, did I get right, and what, specifically, did I get wrong? If you won't be specific, why bother posting about it at all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
As well, Diamond just administers distribution according to the publishers policies. The DC does not generally open their extra, undistributed copies to Diamond. Marvel does. However, there are not hundreds or thousands it would be the print run safety margin (usually 5%).

Says who? Where is this documented? Are you aware that DC gives out incentive variants to retailers at special events all the time? Two weeks ago, at SDCC, they handed out 500 (that's five with two zeroes after it) of the DC Rebirth 1:100 Sketch variant? How did that happen? Where did all those extra copies come from? "According to Comichron" (the most popular misconception), they would only have needed 2,395 copies, at most, to fill orders...and, of course, many orders wouldn't have qualified, so the number needed for the incentive was certainly lower. So, 5% margin for safety...? That's only 120 copies extra...but they handed out 500! Where did they come from...?

Same with Harley Quinn/Suicide Squad April Fool's Special 1:50 Variant. 75k copies sold to the NA market through Diamond, 1:50 variant, should only need, at most, 1500 or so copies...5% of 1500 is 75 copies. Where did those extra 500 copies come from...?

It's a mystery!

:ohnoez: (we need better emoticons here.)

Are you getting the picture yet? We DO NOT know what they make, but we can extrapolate some hard numbers based on what we DO know...and...again...it's not what you're, or your PM friend, or your LCS is saying.

Please...by any and all means, PROVE me wrong! I would LOVE to know the truth of the matter. But enough with the "you're wrong, and I won't say how" shtick.

Time to put up or shut up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
@MR_SigS, Here is the PM I received from another member on here. I didn't get his permission so I apologize to him. And this will be the very last time I'll discuss this one issue. What follows is his words.

I was also correct in saying that the platinum books were rationed and distributed based on orders.

That would be Oxbladder who told you that.

How do I know?? Am I a mind reader...!? Have I hacked CBCS...?!

No, he's simply repeated the same misinformation before, using the same word, "rationed", then, too.

Which platinum books? How were they "rationed"? How was he correct? Where is the documentation that shows this (though, of course, I know that is what happened, too, because I was there, too.)

Here's the point on this one: it doesn't matter if the platinum books were "rationed" based on orders. That's not what we're talking about. If retailers received "gifts" from the publishers, based on the amount of particular books they ordered, great...but that's not the program we're talking about. The retailer incentive program, whereby retailers could order a specific variant based on their orders of the regular version of that book, is NOT how the platinum and various other variants of the 90's were offered. There was nothing from the distributors that allowed retailers to order any of these books at the time of initial ordering.

The platinums were all, or nearly all, REWARDS programs, not INCENTIVE programs. That is, they were GIVEN to retailers, usually after the fact, based on their orders. The retailers DID NOT "order" those platinums at the time they ordered the regular books, nor could they.

We've already been through this. Let's all get on the same page, huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxbladder
As well, rationed and rationed by order are different now but have their birth well before 2004/5. At that time DC and Marvel changed how it was done because they realized that they could make more money doing so. This was because first collectors started to pay more than cover for them and then the retailers started charging more. Publishers only making money off the front end rejigged how the books were to be rationed.

This doesn't make much sense, and I've asked for DOCUMENTATION of this before, and haven't gotten it.

Collectors were "paying more than cover" for variants as far back as 1990. I'm not quite sure how collectors could "first start to pay more" and THEN retailers "started charging more." I'm pretty sure that's the other way around.

If the retailer incentive program started "well before 2004/2005", it shouldn't be difficult at all to document that. I can document that it started in 2004/2005, as I have New Avengers (2005) retailer incentive variants, starting with the first issue, which was 1:20.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxbladder
Regardless of how it is run, the number existing is based on the orders. If 40K of a issue are printed the maximum, before safety margin is printed, would be 400. They do not print random numbers it is all based on orders.

Documentation...? Proof, of any kind...? At all...? We know that this particular paragraph is demonstrably wrong, in MULTIPLE WAYS:

1. We do not know the print run of the regular copies, because Marvel, DC, Diamond, et al, DO NOT RELEASE that information. Comichron only accounts for copies SOLD in North America. So, starting with the "if 40k of a (sic) issue are printed" is already inaccurate.

2. We do know that Marvel, DC, and others have distributed, through various means and channels, MORE copies than the maximum number needed based on the (faulty) number quoted in #1 above, and far beyond the "safety margin" or "case requirement." That PROVES that they don't "print to order."

Come on, folks.

8 years ago

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by dpiercy Are you guys talking about that CGC Census graphic I posted where less than 200 were graded in the other thread? Doc said this, "The point isn't that "oh, no, it's definitely NOT 400!"...it very well COULD be...the point is, no one but the publishers and printers know, and they're not telling. So, ANY speculation is just that: speculation." Point taken. Doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for the book. No wish on my end to argue/debate number semantics. These aren't "semantics" being debated; people are trying to sell these books to others based on inaccurate information that clearly favors the seller. Because: money. That's hardly a matter of semantics.
	8 years ago	Post 34 • IP flag post

Collector 4.82K	4.82K dpiercy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I already conceded to what you said, and yet I stand here corrected, again! You are the man, DocBrown!
	8 years ago	Post 35 • IP flag post

Collector 391	391 SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Doc, I think we're at an impasse. I'm too tired to break down your post and refute things you've stated as fact.i will point out however what ANY intelligent, literate person knows of your post. Tha only statement you said that could be proven true is about the books distributed at SDCC. NOTHING else you said did you back up with a source other than yourself. Okay, so the census says 87 books with a history are known. You said it almost certainly demonstrates more than 400. How? Why? Did it occur that perhaps the publicity surrounding this book had people jumping to get them graded and sold quickly? Immediately after release, they were going for over $30 per book on eBay. I know because I was a buyer. Your statement carried NO proof. It's an opinion. Nothing more. You speak of how credentialed you are, maybe more so than a 28 year LCS store owner. But you don't say what those credentials are. Just because you say you are shows us nothing. You say WE KNOW that the various channels distributed far more than the faulty 40K listed. We do? How? Again your statement is opinion. So you know how many were distributed overseas? Where did you get that number? I said I respect others position. And I do, including yours. Yet you question that. You said where does he (Oxbladder) get his numbers? Where's the documentation? In his statement, he said right upfront he got it from a 28 year LCS owner. You asked who is this anonymous owner. The owner made his statements to Ox based on his experience, contacts within the industry, his knowledge of distribution policies. Most laymen trust their LCS owners. Again, you say you may be more credentialed than he. Okay, again, what are YOUR credentials? And as you say, where's the documentation? You stated people are trying to sell these books. Your wrong. People ARE selling these books. It's not as if these books aren't selling. Check eBays selling history. People are snapping them up. So all the people buying these books are idiots? They ALL did no research? In the end, right , wrong, indifferent, it does not matter. People are buying the books. I've got over $2000 in my bank that I didn't have 3 weeks ago. The constant, continuous, and ongoing discussion we've had has had people doing their own research and investigations. I've had 3 buyers because of it. So a big thank you for putting such a bright spotlight on this book. It's helped fatten my wallet nicely.
	8 years ago	Post 36 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
@DocBrown,Yes Doc, I certainly do respect others positions. Whether I agree with them or not. Why is that a difficult trait to accept?

Who said I didn't accept it? What does agreeing or disagreeing with a position have to do with respecting or disrespecting it?

You didn't answer my question: is every position worthy of respect, no matter what it is?

If I insist that Spiderman's first appearance in comics was in Action Comics #37, would that be a position worthy of respect?

No, there's just lip service..."with all due respect"...which is (nearly universally) code for "well, I don't think you deserve any respect, you toad, but I'll say that so it appears that I think you do."

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
As a supervisor with the gov't, on a daily basis I have meetings with other dept. heads where disagreements occur all the time. In the end, consensus wins. That's how the best decisions are generally arrived at.

Without getting into a debate on politics, no, that's not true at all. The best decisions are made by leaders, not committees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
And because people's lives depend on our decisions, disagreements are set aside.

Why is disagreement for disagreement's sake a bad thing...? What if the person disagreeing is correct, and everyone agreeing is wrong? Is truth determined by consensus? What happened to standing on principle?

Ah, politics. Compromise wins the day...almost always at the expense of principle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
What you find incredulous to believe is a term with which you must be unaware of.

I'm sorry, how do you know what I do and do not find incredulous...? How can you presume to know that of which I am and am not aware...?

And why the need to reply to me with comments like this, while making sure to offer lip service to "respect"...? Is that showing respect for me...?

Not offended, understand. You're not the first, and won't be the last. Just asking the uncomfortable questions, because they need to be asked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
It's called, "agreeing to disagree".

"Agreeing to disagree" is code for "I think you're wrong, but I can't prove it, so I'll just continue to think what I think, proof, evidence, and facts aside."

You're more than welcome to "agree to disagree" and end your end of the conversation, SAF. Nothing's preventing you, after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
And it can be accomplished with cordiality, decency, kindness and most importantly, respect.

Sure it can. I agree wholeheartedly.

But that brings up some questions: what is "kindness"? Is letting someone believe things that aren't true an act of kindness, or selfishness? Is it respectful to tell people they are "flat out wrong", without providing any evidence that they are? Is it cordial and decent to become angry at someone for simply asking questions about claims made to sell an item?

Interesting perspectives, I imagine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
As far as proof goes, every day on here, people make statements about other forum members being wrong, people say some other member doesn't know what he is talking about, they'll make statements to the effect that another member is either ill informed or miss informed. Individuals make clothes and didn't statements as if it is fact when it may or may not be.

I don't understand that statement, and I can't figure out what you meant to say. Would you mind clarifying?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
There is a person on here Who provided The proof of what we are talking about.

He did...? If I missed it, would you mind reposting it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
He monitors the different threads in this forum. If he wishes to get involved and provide that same information to you or anybody else, that will be his choice. For now, unless he wishes to get involved That's the best I can do.
In the end, people believe what they wish to believe for their own reasons.

Indeed. Truer words are rarely spoken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
For myself, I could care less if people think I am wrong about something and if they wish to expend The time, effort, research and energy to prove me wrong, then I believe that it is only right that I give them the respect they deserve.

Your perspective is off. It's not about proving anyone wrong. It's about getting to the truth, wherever it may lie.

If you take it personally, if you let your pride get in the way, if you get offended at that which is not offensive, the truth cannot be found.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
Being proven right in so far as the discussion concerning comic books go, it would seem to be extraordinarily important to you for whatever reasons. For me, there are a whole host of other things that I find much more important.

You are only the latest in a very, very, verrrry long line of people who make claims that they can't prove, then, when challenged, become personally offended, and so attempt to turn the conversation into a personal one by saying things like "well, you clearly need to be right", as if the conversation has anything to do with me or what I need.

You use the correct word here: "seem." But what "seems" to you isn't what really is. If I am wrong, I have but one request: show me why and how. Isn't that treating someone with respect? Kindness? Decency? Cordiality? Oh yes, absolutely. It is the height of selfish disrespect to know the truth, and withhold it from someone. However...it's also selfishly disrespectful to not know the truth, but pretend one does.

It's never been about "needing to be right." It's about searching for what's true, regardless of where that truth is. Why be offended by truth? Why cling to opinions that are demonstrably wrong? Pride? Yes, pride, and more.

I will show you more kindness, cordiality, decency, and respect than you have shown me during this conversation by saying this...if you can take it to heart: this isn't personal, so don't take it personally. And if you made it this far, congrats!

With all the respect that is due you, whatever that may be, in whatever measure it is due.

8 years ago

Collector 1.29K	1.29K Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	I hope that people realize Doc is not providing any more proof for his claims than anyone else. Frankly I don't care what his opinion is. Never have. Go back and read his claims they are loaded with contradictory statements. Needless to say my experience within the industry and connections to long time retailers allows me to know when someone is just stirring the poop because they can. Whether there are 250 or 420 or however many thousands Doc thinks there are sitting around was never what this thread was about. SAF threw out a number that, in all likelihood, is not far from the mark. Why people who don't give a sh about the books even care I don't know. It is bloody annoying and makes me wanna disrupt those folk's future selling threads. This whole poopstorm was never about providing reliable data/information. It was about one person pontificating and trying to bully other to see their POV. Anyway, this is my last time feeding the t*l. I hope you sell the book SAF despite other's attempts prevent it.
	8 years ago	Post 38 • IP flag post

Collector 11.12K	11.12K MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan @MR_SigS,You know the respect that I have for you Sig. But it wouldn't be right for me to drag this person in without his permission. In retrospect, I should've kept my big fat mouth closed! Well, I wouldn't put it so harshly. And I'm not asking you to drag him out. I addressed him since you said he monitors the threads. It's an invitation. If he has solid info on the hobby and print numbers, please share.
	8 years ago	Post 39 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Doc, I think we're at an impasse. I'm too tired to break down your post and refute things you've stated as fact.i will point out however what ANY intelligent, literate person knows of your post.

Ugh. Argumentum ad populum, a common logical fallacy. You attempt to flatter and persuade the audience by saying that anyone who agrees with your following statement must therefore be "intelligent" and "literate", and if one disagrees with it, they must necessarily by stupid and illiterate.

Yuck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
Tha only statement you said that could be proven true is about the books distributed at SDCC. NOTHING else you said did you back up with a source other than yourself.

You're still missing the fundamental issue of this entire conversation: I'm not the one making the claim. You are. The burden of proof is on you, and has been since the beginning.

That said, I have given you copious documentary evidence for the things I've said, easily checked out at Comichron, Diamond, and elsewhere.

I am becoming more and more convinced that it isn't possible for you to speak in anything but vague, unsubstantiated claims, and aren't capable of addressing specific points, but I will try one more time: what specifically have I said that I "did not back up with a source other than myself"...?

Specifically. No "nothing", no "everything", no "almost everything"...enough of the generalities, get specific.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
Okay, so the census says 87 books with a history are known.

Incorrect. There are 87 certification events recorded on the census. That does NOT mean that 87 books are on the census. It COULD be 87 different copies, but it could be 80, or 75, or 62. We only know that the MAXIMUM number of certified copies is 87.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
You said it almost certainly demonstrates more than 400. How? Why?

I already explained that in your other thread, but I'll explain it again:

USM #1, DF. There are 7,500 copies officially, according to the DF COA for the book. There are likely more, but we know there are at least 7,500.

Here's the documentation for that:

(signed example)

(unsigned)

(I've also discovered a "222 copy" run graded by CGC, but I'm not sure if that was taken from the 7500, or represents 222 MORE copies.)

However...on the census, there are only 878 copies on the census. Where are the other 6622? And this is a book that has been "worth slabbing" since very soon after the book was released.

And this is just an example. There are all sorts of books that have known print runs that have only a small percentage of those print runs represented on the census.

Bone #1 - ~ 2,000 copy print run, only 233 on the census.

TMNT #1 - ~ 3,275 print run, only 677 on the census (and I KNOW those numbers are off, because I have a label here.)

Strangers in Paradise #1 - 3,000 print run, only 86 copies on the census.

(The documentation for all of these can be found here: https://www.cgccomics.com/census/index.asp, and here: http://www.recalledcomics.com/StrangersInParadise1.php

and here: http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/2013/07/an-interesting-long-forgotten-fact.html

and here: https://westfieldcomics.com/wow/low/low_int_040.html)

And these are all books that are decades older than WW #38, and have all been worth slabbing since the beginning of CGC 17 years ago.

Wonder Woman #38 is a year and a half old, and there are already 87 grading events on the census.

Now. Granted, that doesn't PROVE that particular point, and it never can...but it goes a long, long way to extrapolating it. The idea that, after only a year and a half, 20% of the entire print run has been slabbed, when that's true of almost no, if not no, other book, completely defies the odds.

That's how and why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
Did it occur that perhaps the publicity surrounding this book had people jumping to get them graded and sold quickly?

That's true of many, many popular books. This particular book isn't "the single hottest book on the market", nor is it probably even in the top 25. I doubt it's even in the top 10 hottest incentive variants.

That said, though, there are, of course, various reasons why people slab, and which cannot ever be quantified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
Immediately after release, they were going for over $30 per book on eBay. I know because I was a buyer. Your statement carried NO proof. It's an opinion. Nothing more.

Which statement...? I've made many of them. To which SPECIFIC statement are you referring here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
You speak of how credentialed you are,

No, I didn't. I said I had credentials just as impressive, if not moreso, than an anonymous LCS store owner. So do you. So does everyone.

Know why...?

Because he's anonymous...if he even exists. I suspect he does, but of what value is anonymous "testimony", given through yet another anonymous source...? "My anonymous source says that his LCS owner...also anonymous...says you're wrong."

Even Lionel Hutz would have shredded that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
maybe more so than a 28 year LCS store owner. But you don't say what those credentials are. Just because you say you are shows us nothing.

RIGHT! EXACTLY! Now you're getting it! Just because someone SAYS something doesn't mean it's true! You're on the right track, now!

Now just apply that thinking to your anonymous source, and his anonymous source, and you'll be good to go!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
You say WE KNOW that the various channels distributed far more than the faulty 40K listed.

You cannot invent things, and then claim that I said them.

I never said anything like you're claiming here.

Again, and this is critical if you're going to have these kinds of discussions: you cannot make things up, and then claim that other people said them when they did not.

I said we know that the 40k number only represents sales in North America.

That means exactly what I said, nothing more and nothing less.

I didn't say anything like "WE KNOW that the various channels distributed far more than the faulty 40k number." I said trying to USE Diamond's NA sales number as if it were equivalent to the print run of the regular book is faulty.

Nothing about "distributed far more", because that's not something we know. There are other English speaking countries in the world that received English comics. What that number is, we don't know, because it's not public.

IN FACT...you're confusing what I said about distribution of the INCENTIVE VARIANTS with distribution of the REGULAR EDITIONS.

Point #2, in the post above to which you refer, (Post #33 for those keeping score), is talking about the subsequent distribution of INCENTIVE variants, not the REGULAR edition, to which point #1 refers...and even STILL, I didn't say anything like "far more" in EITHER point.

You really need to pay closer attention, SAF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
We do? How? Again your statement is opinion.

In this case, my "statement" is actually your invention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
So you know how many were distributed overseas?

No, and never said I did. Whose posts are you reading?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
Where did you get that number?

Nowhere, because I didn't say I had such a number. Whose posts are you reading?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
I said I respect others position. And I do, including yours. Yet you question that.

As should everyone. Not all "positions" are created equally, as I demonstrated above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
You said where does he (Oxbladder) get his numbers?

Oops! You "revealed" your "anonymous" source!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
Where's the documentation? In his statement, he said right upfront he got it from a 28 year LCS owner.

That's not documentation. That's an anonymous quote from an anonymous source, via another anonymous source.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
You asked who is this anonymous owner. The owner made his statements to Ox based on his experience, contacts within the industry, his knowledge of distribution policies. Most laymen trust their LCS owners.

Again, that's not documentation. Documentation requires, you know...documents and such. Like the ones I posted earlier in this post, showing the print runs of the various books being discussed.

This anonymous LCS owner isn't even named, so how can these theoretical statements be examined? They can't.

"Most laymen trust their LCS owners" is another appeal to popularity. 1. You don't know that. 2. Why should "laymen" trust a person whose very livelihood is to sell them these very products, and thus has a built in conflict of interest? 3. You're asking everyone reading this to trust the anonymous source of an anonymous source. You start the post by appealing to everyone's intellect, then hope they're too dumb to recognize that.

You assume this LCS owner has 28 years of experience. What is that experience in? Doesn't that matter? Does he have experience with retailer incentives, and how the program works? We have no idea, because we have no idea who this person is, or if this person even exists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
Again, you say you may be more credentialed than he. Okay, again, what are YOUR credentials? And as you say, where's the documentation?

As I said before: I'm not the one making the claim. You are. The burden of proof is on you. And, as I also said before, credentials may impress some, but they have no bearing on the truth.

If I whipped out my credentials, would you care? Would that change your mind?

If the answer is no, what's the point?

If the answer is yes, you can be swayed more by man's accomplishments than the truth, which doesn't speak well of you.

The fact of the matter is, I am here, a known quantity, with plenty of references, and the anonymous LCS guy...whoever he may be...is not.

That ALONE gives what I say infinitely more weight. In a court of law, such "proof" is called "hearsay", and would almost universally not be allowed.

"Yeah, your honor, this guy told me that this LCS guy that he goes to said you wuz wrong. Case closed."

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
You stated people are trying to sell these books. Your wrong. People ARE selling these books. It's not as if these books aren't selling. Check eBays selling history.

You're doing it again.

I never said, nor implied, anything that you're claiming here. You can't make things up that I didn't say, and then claim I said them. I never, at any time, made any such distinction as you are claiming I made here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
People are snapping them up. So all the people buying these books are idiots? They ALL did no research?

Again, I never said, nor implied, anything of the sort. You can't make things up that I didn't say, and then claim I said them. Whether people are "snapping them up" or not is wholly irrelevant to this entire discussion.

I am challenging your unequivocal claim that there are "only 400 copies in existence!" That is all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
In the end, right , wrong, indifferent, it does not matter. People are buying the books. I've got over $2000 in my bank that I didn't have 3 weeks ago. The constant, continuous, and ongoing discussion we've had has had people doing their own research and investigations. I've had 3 buyers because of it. So a big thank you for putting such a bright spotlight on this book. It's helped fatten my wallet nicely.

Good! I'm glad you have benefitted, sincerely. I would hope that all those buyers made those decisions not based on erroneous information, but I'm glad you got your sales.

8 years ago

COLLECTOR 20.52K	20.52K DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0

	8 years ago	Post 41 • IP flag post

Collector 391	391 SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Doc, you're a literate, thoughtful, intelligent person. Great with words and communication. I've no doubt that in person your a great guy. Whether you believe it or not, I really do have a ton of respect for you. I think a better way of saying what I mean is I respect everyone's right to thier opinion. Not necessarily the opinion itself. In your case, yes I certainly do respect your position itself. It's not a position where anyone is subject to any type of harm or injury so of course I respect your position. So maybe that clarifies enough for you where you get what I mean. To be totally honest, I truly love a good debate. I'd love to go point by point over things I've said proving my statements. And, I could back up my "vague, unsubstantiated claims" as you say. There are 2 reasons why I have not done this. The first and most important reason is i'm stuck using my telephone for all this communication. My home computer is down right now and I don't have a laptop. So all this cutting and pasting that you do going back-and-forth I would be doing but I find it too time-consuming, too difficult, and too much of a pain in the ass to do it just using my cell phone. The second reason which is not as important is the fact that it's just not as important to me as it is to you to completely prove to the entire world that I am right and you are wrong. That seems to be your position. Not whether everything were discussing is actually valid or truthful but that you are perceived as being completely correct and you have proven me wrong. Doc, it's just not that important to me! I simply feel like the people out there can read our statements and our positions on this forum and I am happy with what ever they come away believing. Right or wrong, whatever people want to believe, I'm good with that, I don't care. So as far as this conversation goes, I'd like to ended on a high note, and let's just discuss our favorite comic books!
	8 years ago	Post 42 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
The second reason which is not as important is the fact that it's just not as important to me as it is to you to completely prove to the entire world that I am right and you are wrong. That seems to be your position. Not whether everything were discussing is actually valid or truthful but that you are perceived as being completely correct and you have proven me wrong. Doc, it's just not that important to me! I simply feel like the people out there can read our statements and our positions on this forum and I am happy with what ever they come away believing. Right or wrong, whatever people want to believe, I'm good with that, I don't care.

With the respect that is due, this really gets at the heart of it, doesn't it? You don't care what people believe, as you freely admit.

However, I do care. I want people, including myself, to not believe that which is not true, but to know the truth, the facts of a matter, wherever it lies.

We have wandered a little afield into philosophy, but you keep repeating (because, as you admit, you don't care what people believe (including yourself))...the fiction that this has anything to do with "needing to be right"...at least on my end.

That is a completely natural response. I do not judge you, nor am I offended by you or what you've said. I am pointing out what is, in the hopes that the truth may be known by all, regardless of who is "wrong" and who is "right."

That's really the difference, here. I have nothing against you; how could I? I don't know you, and have nothing against you. You have taken this personally, but it's not personal in any way. I speak because, believe it or not, I care. If I did not care, I'd say nothing and let anyone believe whatever fantasy they felt like, including myself. You don't think I have believed fiction? I surely have. If I am wrong, I would hope that someone would care enough about me to show me how (not just say "you're wrong."

So do we care for our fellow man, and challenge each other where we can and where appropriate, or do we laugh and call him a fool, letting him suffer in ignorance...? I like to think I know where I stand on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
So as far as this conversation goes, I'd like to ended on a high note, and let's just discuss our favorite comic books!

I might nitpick, and say you can't really end on a high note when you've just publicly declared that you think this is all about me "being proven right."

8 years ago

Collector 391	391 SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Doc, it would seem as though you do not completely understand someone's position unless they make every facet of it completely known do you. As far as caring what people think, if I treat people right, treat them with dignity, respect, honesty, and treat them the way that I wish to be treated, if at that point they disagree with me, I don't care. I have done everything I can. And if they don't believe me or wish to disagree with me, there's nothing more I can do. Doc, I make tons of mistakes. I always have and I always will. I do try to learn from them and not repeat them what up dude I'm goo I make tons of mistakes. I always have and I always will. I do try to learn from them and not repeat them. And in this particular thread, I'm not taking it personal at all. I'm rather enjoying it. Because my PC is not working I'm having to use my phone, I get frustrated because it's very difficult for me to get my point across the way that I want to. The conversation a couple weeks ago, I mistakenly took personal. This one I am not taking personal at all. So if my frustration and having to use my phone instead of my PC to hold this discussion is showing, that's OK because my phone and I have a very antagonistic relationship with each other anyway! I truly hope you're having a great day, mine is dealing with this oppressive Florida heat!
	8 years ago	Post 44 • IP flag post

Collector 11.12K	11.12K MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@DarthLego Textbook. smh
	8 years ago	Post 45 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 20.52K	20.52K DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@MR_SigS sometimes threads need a little levity, I go where I'm needed, blindly following the dark side. If I make at least one person smile and laugh then mission accomplished.
	8 years ago	Post 46 • IP flag post

Collector 391	391 SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@DarthLego, it works for me!
	8 years ago	Post 47 • IP flag post

Collector 391	391 SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@DarthLego, Aaahhh, the Dark Lord of the Sith---A shining beacon of light in these troubled times! There's a contradiction in terms.
	8 years ago	Post 48 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego @MR_SigS sometimes threads need a little levity, I go where I'm needed, blindly following the dark side. If I make at least one person smile and laugh then mission accomplished. Again: there's levity, then there's mockery. "Levity" at the expense of another isn't levity. If I make at least one person smile and laugh at your expense...mission accomplished...?
	8 years ago	Post 49 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan @DarthLego, it works for me! lol Yes, indeed it does. :cloud9:
	8 years ago	Post 50 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Just for the record, because there are people chattering back and forth in private: Vague claims don't cut it. Saying things like "you may say right things, but you also say wrong things" doesn't cut it. If you're not willing to be direct and specific, your claims have no value. If you're going to make a claim, the burden of proof is on YOU, not the "other guy" to "disprove" you. That's how it works, and that's how it has always worked. It does NOT "go both ways", when a claimant is challenged. One more time: YOU make the claim, YOU prove it when challenged. Enough with these Jr. High "well, you can't prove it EITHER!" tactics. The only thing I can guess is that there are some of you who have bought into the whole idea that incentive variants are tied to the sales numbers as reported by Diamond. They aren't, which has been more than amply proven, over and over again, on various sites. Yes, I know how appealing using those numbers is. Because it appears so obvious, it's very easy to fall into the trap. But appearances are, especially in this case, deceptive. Whether it's stubborn pride, or that you don't want anybody upsetting your financial apple cart, the facts don't matter to some of you, and you're quite willing to distort, twist, and lie to continue your narrative. Not a problem, but I will continue to be here to correct that fiction. And until you're willing to stop making excuses and inventing things that others say to make your points...any of you...we're going to continue to have these discussions. And if you don't have the balls to post about it publicly, if you're afraid that you might look bad, maybe that's your clue that your "facts" aren't, and you ought not be posting about it privately, either.
	8 years ago	Post 51 • IP flag post

Collector 391	391 SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Doc, ease up buddy! No one is mocking anyone. Go through some of the different threads. You'll see that in addition to frank discussion, there's also good natured teasing and joking. Don't take it serious, have fun with it yourself! Think about it, the evil, grim, commanding presence of Darth Vader is represented on here as a LEGO with a hoodie! With your command of the language, I'm sure you could have a lot of fun with that.
	8 years ago	Post 52 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Doc, ease up buddy!

Lighten up, SAF. You read far too much into what other people write, and think they react as you do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
No one is mocking anyone.

Then your definition of "mocking" is different from the standard definition.

Once more, just stating what is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAF
Go through some of the different threads. You'll see that in addition to frank discussion, there's also good natured teasing and joking. Don't take it serious, have fun with it yourself! Think about it, the evil, grim, commanding presence of Darth Vader is represented on here as a LEGO with a hoodie! With your command of the language, I'm sure you could have a lot of fun with that.

Oh brother.

8 years ago

Collector 391	391 SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	oh brother? Well at least I'm having fun with it. The more time I spend having you psychoanalysing me and having you tell the world what I'm thinking, and why, the more you show people what you are. (Brother)
	8 years ago	Post 54 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan oh brother? Well at least I'm having fun with it. The more time I spend having you psychoanalysing me and having you tell the world what I'm thinking, and why, the more you show people what you are. (Brother) I know this is a fool's errand, but where...specifically, now...have I "told the world what you're thinking", aside from fact that you think I need to "ease up"...? After all, you said "ease up buddy!", so, by process of rational deduction, anyone can tell that you think I need to "ease up"...by the definitions of those concepts. After all, if I say "I'm happy", don't you know what I'm thinking, by that declarative statement...? meh And I thought you were having fun...? It's all light and airy, right? Fun? Laughter? "Don't take things so seriously"...? So what's with that last comment...? Do you mean that in jest...? I'll hang up and take my answer on the air. :popcorn:
	8 years ago	Post 55 • IP flag post

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