CBCS GRADED: FINCH VARIANT WW#38,1/100809
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Swampy I'd say RMA knows a thing or two about variants, too...  |
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Swampy private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan None of that is my research, I take no credit for any of it. |
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Swampy private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Thats a given, since that's who Larry and Donkey were agreeing with. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan Was there someone who wasn't keeping it civil...? We should absolutely keep it civil, so if I see anyone not being civil, I'll certainly say something, myself. Quote: Originally Posted by SAF Well...not to put TOO fine a point on it, but you've just listed a picture with seven copies FOR SALE. If your estimations are right, that's around 1.75% of the entire print run of the book OR MORE. That's an impressive feat! So, it's natural to want the number reported to be as low as possible. Just basic human nature at work, for which you can't be faulted. However.... I'd still like to know who the "majority of the collecting community" is who decided this? Because, realistically, we have to look at the facts, regardless of the opinions of a majority that may, or may not, exist, right...? Facts, the truth, is ultimately what matters. Quote: Originally Posted by SAF I don't think I quite understand what you mean, here. The incentive variant program is barely a decade old; the first ratio incentive variants were coming out in 2004/2005. And...again, I'm not sure who these "most people" are who are "accepting" these ideas as "fact." And...pardon me for being blunt, but...isn't the truth all that matters, even if it's just one person saying it? If 10,000,000 people think that mosquitos are a type of cat, and 1 person says they're actually insects...does it matter that 10,000,000 people think otherwise...? |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Personally, I am saddened when people become entrenched with false information, simply because that's just what they've always heard, or it seems simple, or they're trying to sell something, or some other reason, and become unwilling to consider the facts of the matter. The incentive variant program isn't rocket science, but it does manage to throw a few curveballs at folks who try to understand it. Hopefully, people will have desire to get at the truth of the matter.  |
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Swampy private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown +1 I'd love to see official information straight from DC. |
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Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user | |
| So much chest thumping over a number. The simple fact is there are not very many of these kicking around. Publishers are free to print whatever they like but that also is not good business. They will base the number they print on the number ordered plus a SMALL over-run to cover average losses. BTW rationed variants have been around longer than 11 or 12 years that I have a rationed variant from way back in 1998. They were not all that common but they have been around for a while. The rationing plans have changed a lot and they are far more common. |
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SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @DocBrown, Hi Doc, yes if my numbers are correct, I got lucky. I spent almost $2000 dollars and most of last year acquiring the 16 total issues I ended up with. That's with no guarantee what they'd grade at. I took all the risk. And yes, the lower the print run of any issue, the better off things go for the seller. As for my beliefs when I say the "majority of the collecting community", I'd say just see for yourself what the books are selling for. If people are paying $700-$1000 depending on grade and signature, they may NOT be in the majority but that's okay with me. My question and I mean it legitimately, so what are the print runs of the dealer holdback incentives? And if none really knows, then it would seem to come down to what someone believes and is willing to pay for said book. |
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Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user | |
That's a nice cover BTW. The price is out of my range of affordability though  |
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SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Going as far back as the McFarlane run on ASM, the different covers of the same issues although may not have been called "retailer incentives", but I'd say unofficially, they'd qualify. | ||
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Swampy private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Oxbladder That makes me think of Unity from Valiant. Didnt you have to order so many copies of whatever to get the free zero issue, and order even more for the variant? |
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SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Swampy, I haven't a clue about Unity. I've just gotten back into the game last year after many years away. I'm still playing catchup. | ||
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SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| But for anyone interested, there are a bunch of ASM 300's on eBay right now listed as "retailer incentive". That was 1988. | ||
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SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Oxbladder,Thanks, as far as price goes, the eBay listings are a lot higher than what I sell at. The eBay sellers don't care for me. I undercut them. And I have more of them than they do! | ||
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Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Swampy yeah there was something like that. The platinum copies of Superman #75 and AOS #500 were incentive rations. Several small press books had rationed variants in the 90's. | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Oxbladder No, the platinum copies of Superman #75 and AOS #500 weren't "incentive ratios." They were both limited to about 10,000 copies. They may have been distributed by ratio, but you couldn't order them by ratio. "Rationing" is not the same thing as "1:X" The concept didn't really exist until Diamond took complete control of the distribution market in 1996-7 because it COULDN'T exist before then...there were still a multitude of distributors, and such a program would have been a nightmare to administrate before the consolidation of distribution AND online ordering. |
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SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @DocBrown, I certainly believe you keep on top of the market and know what you're talking about! | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Oxbladder Let's keep it civil, shall we? If you're going to characterize correction of fairly widespread misinformation as "chest thumping", you're probably not really interested in getting at the truth of the matter. That "number" is inaccurate, and it is repeated on a daily basis. Isn't it important that we get things accurate? I think so. Quote: Originally Posted by OB According to whom? Publishers print as much as they think they need. They keep it SECRET because that IS "good business", but printing whatever they want, for their own purposes, is not "not good business." Quote: Originally Posted by OB Great! Do you have any documentation that demonstrates that? Quote: Originally Posted by OB Cool! Which one? "1:X" variants became a regular program at Marvel and DC around 2004/2005. So, any incentive variant (not just RATIONED variant, which is completely different!) from before then would be interesting to note. Quote: Originally Posted by OB Just so we're clear: rationed variants...that is, variants that were "1 per store" or "1 given for every 500 copies ordered" is NOT the same...similar, but NOT the same...as "1:X" incentive variants, which were ORDERING/DISTRIBUTION ratios. Granted, absolutely granted, if there were variants that were handed out for "x amount of copies ordered", yes, that absolutely is essentially the germ of what came later...BUT, it wasn't exactly the same thing that became the incentive variant program. It was really more of a "rewards" program. It wasn't designed to GET retailers to order more...it was a "reward" for ordering as much as they did. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan Link? I just searched "Amazing 300 incentive", and found nothing. And, while yes, there were variants that existed at that time, you could count them on two hands, for nearly all publishers. Variants weren't really a "thing" until the early 90's. Really, Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #1 was the first "mainstream" variant comic. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Swampy You had to order a complete set of Unity chapters #2-9, to get a copy of Unity #0 for free. But...it wasn't a variant, it was just a special "free" program from Valiant. Unity #0 Red was essentially a "1 per store" variant, for stores that met a certain threshold. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan No, because they weren't what are now called "incentive variants", that is, variants that are designed as an incentive to get retailers to order more copies of the regular book. Again, that didn't happen until 2004/2005 or so. Before that, there were sporadic instances, but they weren't designed to get retailers to order more of the regular books. |
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Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user | |
| 1:x is a ration shorthand. If you worked in science you would know this. Any time something is rationed it acts as an incentive. That is why the use of the current rationing came into being. The lower they push the ratio the more it will push retailers to order to certain limits to get these books. Now, who gets some of the lower rationed books is based upon previous months orders this is a recent method before then it was pretty simple you ordered x number of books you got x number of variants. Whether the ratio is 1:4 or 1:200 it is an incentive and whether it was revealed in the consumer advance solicit magazines or not it usually mentioned the rationing in the dealer copy. Whether it was actually named as an incentive is moot. Like I said before it is not good business to print a random number of copies. They print based on orders with a small over-run. That's the way it has always been since they went direct. You are right that consolidating distribution made it much easier but the groundwork was set way back in the 90's. It most certainly has evolved and is nothing like it was back then but make no mistake the current model was born a LONG time ago. (BTW I was a retailer back before and during consolidation and after so I know full well that there were "incentives". Back in the mid 2000's it exploded when people started paying multiples of cover and retailers followed suit not long after. Yes they were not common as they are now but they were also NOT rare instances.) |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Oxbladder I question the use of the term "rationed". It's not like the publishers put a limit on how many copies each retailer can receive. If an LCS wants to order 100,000 copies to get 1000 variant covers they can do that, they can get as many variants as they want if they're willing to pay. The publishers don't print the book ahead of time and then say "we only have 500 copies, were going to have to allocate them 2 per LCS." This is the way I see it, tell me if this is too simple: Major Publisher: Hey Mr. Retailer, what would you say if I gave you a special variant cover for every 100 copies you order of Comic X #4? Retailer: Sounds good! That's it. No promise of maximum or minimum print runs, no promises that they won't sell some themselves, in fact no promises at all. Quote: Originally Posted by Oxbladder I'm not sure you want to speak in absolutes like that. According to Larrys Comics, Marvel doesn't print a random number of copies, they print 1,500 of everything rounded to the case. This makes sense since it seems like a losing proposition to just print 200-300 copies of a book. And we're talking about Marvel here - nothing they do for $$$ surprises me. |
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dpiercy private msg quote post Address this user | |
The CGC Census shows 86 copies graded. Regardless of the "actual" numbers, this book is rare. I think the 400 number @SilverAgeFan cited is plausible. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by dpiercy Just as plausible as saying DC printed 1,000 of these and have 500 in a warehouse that will slowly find their way to the public. Just as plausible as Aspen saying we're going to print 3,000 copies of an issue and then they print 9,000 copies of it. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Oxbladder I know that, and I don't even work in science.  Quote: Originally Posted by OB Yet, as Swampy explained above, these books aren't rationed, in the traditional sense of something being rationed. Quote: Originally Posted by OB Except, as I pointed out above, the early examples were a sort of "rewards" program, not an ordering program. That is, retailers weren't given the option to order 500 copies of X-Men #1 (1991), and for that, they would get a gold hologram X-Men card (and it's doubtful any of them would.) They just ordered 500 copies (or whatever amount), and Marvel gave them a gift. While similar to the current retailer incentive program, it wasn't designed the same, to GET retailers to up their orders. And, lower ratios don't necessarily incentivize retailers to order more. It depends on the title, the variant, and other factors. Many retailers say "I have to order HOW many copies of Vader Down to get that Chip variant...?" Quote: Originally Posted by OB No, it's not. You'll have to provide the specific examples that I asked about before, so it can be examined. IF...and this is a very big IF...the dealer ordering forms mentioned "retailer: if you order X amount of this book, you may order 1 copy of this variant of it" then yes, that would be a retailer incentive. But, again, such a program couldn't even exist prior to the consolidation of distribution under Diamond in the mid-90's, and there's nothing contemporaneous in industry literature that describes such a program that I have seen until the mid-00's. If it exists, by all means, post it. I'd love the opportunity to learn something I didn't know. Quote: Originally Posted by OB Yes, you said that before, but you still have not explained why you believe this. By all means, please do. And, correction: no one said they print a "random" number of copies, if you're using "random" to mean Marvel circulation telling the printer "just print however many copies you feel like printing." Obviously that's not the case. Marvel, DC, et al, choose precise numbers and submit orders for those precise numbers. Yes, there's an amount for spoilage figured in, but even that number isn't random. However...if, by "random", you mean "printing more than they need for the incentive program"...you would be incorrect. Marvel, DC, et al, have repeatedly demonstrated that this is the case, even if they don't officially acknowledge it. At the Diamond lunch at SDCC last week, they handed out 500 copies of the DC Rebirth 1:100 Sketch Variant and 500 copies of Harley Quinn/Suicide Squad April Fool's Special 1:50 Variant. Where did those copies come from...? DC had them printed, in excess of that required for the incentive program. Other than trying to prop up the market for these "rare" variants, I really don't understand why this is so controversial to folks. Pride...? :shrug: Quote: Originally Posted by OB DC and Marvel joined the Direct market in the mid-70's. I'm not sure how that relates to the retailer incentive program of the 00's? There's a significant difference between printing what's ordered of a regular book in the tens and hundreds of thousands, and printing a 2-3-4k print run of an incentive variant, for advertising purposes. And...ALL publishers in the early to mid 90's were wildly overprinting everything, beyond what was being ordered. That's why there are still cases of Turok #1 and Adventures of Superman #500 floating around. Quote: Originally Posted by OB When? With whom? Do you have specific examples? Quote: Originally Posted by OB Ok. Which ones? Quote: Originally Posted by OB Ok, great! Then coming up with examples shouldn't be too hard. I look forward to seeing them! Thanks for the conversation! |
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Quote:Originally Posted by dpiercy Sure, 400 is plausible. So is 4,000. Before you guffaw, remember: DC doesn't release this information publicly. They could easily have several cases stored to hand out as they see fit, as they do at Diamond retailer lunches, for example. The point isn't that "oh, no, it's definitely NOT 400!"...it very well COULD be...the point is, no one but the publishers and printers know, and they're not telling. So, ANY speculation is just that: speculation. It's ok to make estimates, but making estimates based on flawed understanding renders those estimates fairly useless. And, the census shouldn't be used to demonstrate how "rare" something may be. There are many books that aren't on the census. CGC has only graded 3 million or so books. That's less than the print run of a single comic, Superman #75 (or Adventures of Superman #1, or X-Men #1, etc.) 99.925% of all comics ever published haven't been slabbed, and so aren't represented on the census. The census only gives us a broad idea about what is out there. WW #38 came out last year. The fact that there are already 86 copies on the census should tell you that there are almost certainly more than 400 copies in existence, and certainly not 250-300 as theorized earlier. Consider: ASM #667 Dell'Otto only has 24 copies total on the census, and that book is 5+ years old. While that doesn't confirm anything, it does point us in the direction that ASM #667 D'O is in lower supply than the WW #38 Finch. |
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SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| SOOOOO, I STARTED THIS AND WILL MAKE AN EFFORT TO FINISH IT. OFFICIALLY I CANNOT POSSIBLY TELL YOU HOW MANY WERE PRINTED. THE PEOPLE THAT ARE SAYING I DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE ARE CORRECT. BUT I AM GOING BY GENERALLY ACCEPTED DATA. THAT BEING SAID, YOU DISSENTERS ALSO CANNOT OFFICIALLY STATE WITH FACTS HOW MANY WERE PRINTED. SO HERE WE ARE. GIVE ME AN OFFICIALLY RELEASED NUMBER FROM DIRECT COMMUNICATIONS, AND I'LL STATE IT LOUD AND CLEAR. | ||
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Swampy private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan I thought you were going to give us the officially released numbers from DC when you said "DC themselves said the Finch cover would be available in the manner and numbers discussed as I've said." That's one of the reasons this thread is still going. If you don't have the info you said you did, then there's not much left to discuss. Unless DarthLego ever comes back, lol! |
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SilverAgeFan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @DocBrown, with respect you continue to split hairs and demand facts from those whom disagree with you. Now it's our turn. Cite any shop, any collector, any store owner or any insider you know. Get a current high level Marvel or DC official to publicly back up your position and this discussion is over. Until that occurs, neither position can be proven. | ||
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