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Comics Copper Age

Newsstand Premium6542

COLLECTOR conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user
I am not the only one to mention this. Barcodes are oogly. A Spidey head is a little better. But I much prefer just a price on the top left, like silver age books.

But alas. We are where we are.
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COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
The barcodes are fugly.
Post 27 IP   flag post
Collector Lonestar private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck
Hey Folks,

Looking for opinions on late 80’s Newsstand issues commanding a premium over their Direct counterparts.

I have an ASM #300 CGC 9.4 Newsstand edition that I may be selling. As far as pricing goes, would it be reasonable to expect a slight premium over other graded sales of this book that are Direct editions?

I think that collecting Newsstand editions is still a niche market. But it is growing and gaining more publicity and popularity. However, I believe that the "average" collector still doesn't understand the difference. While they might conceptually understand the difference between the direct market and the newsstand, they probably don't know how it changed over the years, what year it shifted more to direct market or how drastic a disparity there was in later years. (I would not consider anyone or most everyone on these forums as an average collector. You are all above average!)

So, yes, you can expect a premium for a newsstand over a direct market comic, but only to certain buyers. Many collectors will see the same comic (one newsstand and one direct), at the same grade, listed for two different prices. If it a book they want, but don't understand all the nuances of the difference, they will just buy the cheaper book, and be happy with it. You also have others that will do the same because they simply don't like the barcode. Or other collectors who understand the difference, but aren't focused on being a newsstand collector.

Thus, you can expect a premium and may get one, it might take longer to sell as you are probably targeting a smaller segment of the collecting community.
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Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck
@CopperAgeKids
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids
Back in 1988, nearly half of the copies printed, went to newsstands.....so there should not be much of a premium, at all..

I’ve heard that the ratio was more like 80:20 (Direct:Newsstand) in 1988. Also, the premium seems to reflect the fact that unsold newsstands issues were returned to the distributor making them even more scarce. Additionally, it’s postulated that direct edition issues from that era are more likely to kept in high grade condition.


Wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?😉


The numbers dont add up, so I understand your position, CAK.

However, there just is no data to mine in consideration of how these books were treated. Directs were hoarded, newsstands were mostly read. Until you actually start hunting high grade newsies it’s tough to understand how frustrating it can be to find certain ones in high grade.

That said, ASM300 is one of the LESS rare of the newsstand keys. People knew it was a key back then, even those pulling from the ns racks. Many more of 300 in 9.8 exist than you will find a 299 or 301



I know how tough some newsstands are, in the upper echelon of grades.I've been hunting newssies for the better part of 5 years.

We're in agreement with all of this, with one caveat.

That being, the lack of data you referred to, is a two way street.

Sure, directs were generally better preserved/less prone to getting jacked up in a comic store rack over a 7-11 spinner rack.

To really understand that two way street, you have to look at books on a case by case basis.

Ghost Rider 1 (1990's run) is a brute in 9.8....OTOH, there are plenty of other Marvel and DC titles from that same month, that are hardly any tougher to find in 9.8 news, than direct 9.8. I'm sure that you know this.

As far as general scarcity numbers of newsstands are concerned, Mike's graph is just that.

A graph.

Without providing any citations to news vs direct distribution by year, as his chart stands, it makes no sense to infer scarcity from such a graph.

Furthermore when you factor in that some companies produced more books for the direct market than newsstands to begin with, that is another variable that throws "educated ball parks" out of the window.

I know that is Mike's graph, those are not your numbers,just saying.
Post 29 IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck
@CopperAgeKids
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids
Wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?😉

Read KaptainMyke’s blog if you don’t believe me 😉

Collecting High Grade Newsstand Editions for Investing in Comics
http://blog.kaptainmyke.com/?p=1168



@shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
The numbers dont add up, so I understand your position, CAK.

They add up to 100, is that not what you were expecting?


@CaptainCanuck

Sure, 80 = 20 equals 100.

But without citations, those numbers don't add up.
Post 30 IP   flag post


COLLECTOR kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user
An easy way to prove the numbers are in fact, real - is to look up ebay completed sales and compare the sold comics by the exact year and meticulously look at each comic's image on ebay listings and count how many are direct, and how many are newsstand with upc barcode counterpart. Open the calculator up and count and divide by fractions. Try it on a few popular ones like ASM300 or BA12. You'll see for yourself.
Post 31 IP   flag post
Collector IronMan private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck
@CopperAgeKids
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids
Back in 1988, nearly half of the copies printed, went to newsstands.....so there should not be much of a premium, at all..

I’ve heard that the ratio was more like 80:20 (Direct:Newsstand) in 1988. Also, the premium seems to reflect the fact that unsold newsstands issues were returned to the distributor making them even more scarce. Additionally, it’s postulated that direct edition issues from that era are more likely to kept in high grade condition.


By the late 80's it is known that Marvel was selling 80-90% of their production direct. It was 1985-86 when it was break even. Prior to 1981 most books - like 80-90% - were newstand editions. It's also an accepted fact - though I have no documented references - that Marvel was a few years ahead of DC in embracing the direct market.

It's also been noted that we only have been told the numbers for the entire production. Marvel nor DC have ever revealed the break down month by month and title by title. It's safe to assume that some titles - say ASM for instance - may have sold much better on the newstand than the "average". And some individual issues - like say ASM 300 - may have sold more copies via the newstand than was normal for ASM.

As for newstand copies being less likely to have been well preserved. It FEELS like that is logical - but again it's unknown. Until a grading company that differentiates the two actually does a census, we won't have any evidence.

There were no doubt thousands of towns across the US where comic book collectors had no comic book store to go to. Where the newstand was the only local source for new comics. All through the 80's and into the 90's. Collectors - the theory goes - are the ones more likely to treat their comics gently, preserve the condition. So it becomes a question of how many collectors bought at newstands.
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COLLECTOR kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user

Post 33 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user
from my article:

Okay I broke down some maths. Let's look at Image Comics Spawn #1 by Todd McFarlane.


1992 Image Comics Spawn #1 by Todd McFarlane
That's a very publicly well known number having a 1.7 million copy print run in 1992. 15% of comics in 1992 were allegedly newsstand. 225,000 (1/4 million copies) I estimated the newsstand edition to be a 1:1000 ration of rarity. So 1:1000 is not accurate, that was hand grenade accurate. 32 is more accurate. I think it's even more accurate to say it's a 3:100. Or, 30 in 1000, if you will. That's still a very low number. Still rare. But not even a 1:100.
Post 34 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck
@CopperAgeKids
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids
Wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?😉

Read KaptainMyke’s blog if you don’t believe me 😉

Collecting High Grade Newsstand Editions for Investing in Comics
http://blog.kaptainmyke.com/?p=1168



@shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
The numbers dont add up, so I understand your position, CAK.

They add up to 100, is that not what you were expecting?


@CaptainCanuck

Sure, 80 = 20 equals 100.

But without citations, those numbers don't add up.


Not AT ALL what I meant lol

Add up.. as in... x newsstands distributed, unknown how many returned, etc.

IE impossible to tell what the actual print run is
Post 35 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user
you can go to http://comichron.com for retailer orders that gives you a pretty good ballpark estimate on print run
Post 36 IP   flag post
Collector IronMan private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptainmyke
from my article:

Okay I broke down some maths. Let's look at Image Comics Spawn #1 by Todd McFarlane.


1992 Image Comics Spawn #1 by Todd McFarlane
That's a very publicly well known number having a 1.7 million copy print run in 1992. 15% of comics in 1992 were allegedly newsstand. 225,000 (1/4 million copies) I estimated the newsstand edition to be a 1:1000 ration of rarity. So 1:1000 is not accurate, that was hand grenade accurate. 32 is more accurate. I think it's even more accurate to say it's a 3:100. Or, 30 in 1000, if you will. That's still a very low number. Still rare. But not even a 1:100.


We can't know with issue #1. But Spawn 8 and 9 the newstand editions had very slightly different covers - so CGC differentiates them in their census and notes they are newstand.

We can't use the CGC census here as gospel - but it may be a fairly good indicator of the relative size of newstand vs direct. And since #9 is something of a key there have been a lot of copies sent in. So the sample size is more likely to be reflective of the entire universe.

CGC has graded 1960 Direct Edition Spawn #9's. And 80 Newstands. That ratio indicates that 4% were newstand. 25 to 1. If that number was about the same for the first issue, then we would be looking at about 68,000 copies of the newstand edition of Spawn 1. That isn't a lot compared to 1.7 million total. But it is not RARE. It's not SCARCE. Because 68,000 copies is in the range of what the best selling comic titles normally sell today.

We can also look at grades to get an indication of "newstand scarcer in high grade" might be true The numbers suggest that is true.

50% of Spawn 9 newstand editions were 9.6 or better.
79% of Spawn 9 direct editions were 9.6 or better.
The numbers are even more tilted at 9.8 - 19% of the newstands came in at 9.8, 55% of direct.
Post 37 IP   flag post
Collector KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user
Why do you guys put newsstand on such a high pedastool? True, some of them were actually sitting on a rack in a supermarket or drug store. A lot were never put out on display and instead stayed in the back or stock room. In my opinion it’s just a bar code.
Post 38 IP   flag post
Collector Joosh private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNampa
Why do you guys put newsstand on such a high pedastool? True, some of them were actually sitting on a rack in a supermarket or drug store. A lot were never put out on display and instead stayed in the back or stock room. In my opinion it’s just a bar code.

Post 39 IP   flag post
Collector KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Oooo....came across these when looking for other stuff in my boxes

These would be 1995 and I got them while at school in Ottawa (also have the ashcan), even remember the store - probably have some Babylon5 etc that are also newsstand.

Pretty sure no one is paying a premium though


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COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
I have some mid 1990s X-men books I bought off the stand at the grocery store. If anyone is interested, I'll sell them for $75/pop.
Post 41 IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KatKomics
Oooo....came across these when looking for other stuff in my boxes

These would be 1995 and I got them while at school in Ottawa (also have the ashcan), even remember the store - probably have some Babylon5 etc that are also newsstand.

Pretty sure no one is paying a premium though




If those x-files were in 9.8 slabs, you'd get a premium.

Newsstand 9.8's of x-files 1's were selling for 125% to 200% of direct 9.8's, were moving at.

That was last year, when x-files got hot again.The sizzle is largely gone on those books, now.

There is a demand cap on TV based newsstand books like this....

You are not selling X-Files to a comic-centric based collector group; they would largely only care about #1 on the cover and it being in a 9.8 slab.
Post 42 IP   flag post
Collector X51 private msg quote post Address this user
The UPC rectangle is only there so a UPC code can be put there. They don't need the rectangle on a direct market book, so a Spidey head or text is a substitute for what is is supposed to be there. As far as I'm concerned the UPC code belongs there. When you also factor that they are typically harder to find in nice shape and there is a demand for them in nice shape, I just prefer them overall. To me, their journey and existence is more interesting. They took a path less traveled and they are more interesting than a comic shop ordering 50 (or a case of something) and being placed directly into a subscription box for a customer. I have always preferred UPC codes. The direct market versions remind me of all the Whitman comics that collectors scorned when I first started collecting.
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Collector CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user
There’s also the flip side to this. In terms of relative ‘rarity’, Direct editions from 1979 to 1983 are the equivalent to 1990’s Newsstand editions.
Post 44 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck
There’s also the flip side to this. In terms of relative ‘rarity’, Direct editions from 1979 to 1983 are the equivalent to 1990’s Newsstand editions.



Post 45 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck
There’s also the flip side to this. In terms of relative ‘rarity’, Direct editions from 1979 to 1983 are the equivalent to 1990’s Newsstand editions.


This is where the numbers dont add up. Print run data says you are correct; yet early non-key 80s books in high grade newsstand are just as hard to find as some of the 90s stuff.

Hence why I don’t agree that the print run percentage charts posted are completely correct. They don’t account for the outside variables like vendor returns, and the percentage of readers versus collectors buying direct versus newsstand (preservation)
Post 46 IP   flag post
Collector CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptainmyke
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck
There’s also the flip side to this. In terms of relative ‘rarity’, Direct editions from 1979 to 1983 are the equivalent to 1990’s Newsstand editions.





Not profound, I know. Just trying to spark some conversation about it because most discussion seems to primarily address just the 90’s Newsstand aspect.
Post 47 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user
There is still more direct edition comic books than any newsstand edition comic books. Especially the fact that they stopped making newsstand comic books entirely.
Post 48 IP   flag post
Collector IronMan private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck
There’s also the flip side to this. In terms of relative ‘rarity’, Direct editions from 1979 to 1983 are the equivalent to 1990’s Newsstand editions.


I don't have any interest in seeking out newstand editions, largely because I collect hardly any comics published after 1990 and more like 1985.

But personal preferences aside, the Captain addresses an issue I wish the collecting public at large was more aware. Newstand is being hawked by sellers as rare, more desirable. Which is only true at some in the later 1980's. A decade before that the "rare" books are the direct editions.

Yet eBay and FB are full of listings identifying 1979 comics as "scarce newstand editions"
Post 49 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan
Yet eBay and FB are full of listings identifying 1979 comics as "scarce newstand editions"


I get what you are saying, but eBay is also full of DVD's, reprints and flat out modern comics listed in the Golden Age section of Comics. That's my major pet peeve with eBay. And I've seen comics listed as scarce, rare and hard to find that have a dozen more of the same comic listed at the same time. I honestly believe that SOME, a VERY small portion, of these sellers actually believe what they are posting. They are ignorant of what those terms really mean. I think the key is time, experiance and education.

We've seen an increasing number of comic collectors over the last 10-15 years. It takes time to learn and absorb all the terms and their meanings. I applaud CBCS for labeling newsstand comics now. It will help bring awareness to these issues and people will explore and learn which ones are rare and which ones aren't. The market will eventually catch up and you will see the pre-1986 ones not getting any sort of premium and perhaps even sell for less than the direct issues. But right now, the concept is new to a lot of new collectors who are having a knee jerk reaction.

Sellers are thinking they have a edge with a newsstand and buyers aren't really looking past that designation. In time, the scales will balance. You'll still see sellers using "newsstand" as a selling point on pre-1986 comics and you'll still see buyers falling for it. But I believe that the majority of buyers will catch on and that is about the best one can hope for.
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Collector CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O

The market will eventually catch up and you will see the pre-1986 ones not getting any sort of premium and perhaps even sell for less than the direct issues.


Agreed.
Post 51 IP   flag post
Collector CatmanAmerica private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by X51
The UPC rectangle is only there so a UPC code can be put there. They don't need the rectangle on a direct market book, so a Spidey head or text is a substitute for what is is supposed to be there. As far as I'm concerned the UPC code belongs there. When you also factor that they are typically harder to find in nice shape and there is a demand for them in nice shape, I just prefer them overall. To me, their journey and existence is more interesting. They took a path less traveled and they are more interesting than a comic shop ordering 50 (or a case of something) and being placed directly into a subscription box for a customer. I have always preferred UPC codes. The direct market versions remind me of all the Whitman comics that collectors scorned when I first started collecting.


UPC codes? We don't need no stinkin' UPC codes!
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