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X-Men #1206418

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Forum Crier 54.65K	54.65K OGJackster private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Found my price guides at the bottom of a stack of boxed. It'll take a few but I'll get to them.
	7 years ago	Post 76 • IP flag post

Forum Crier 54.65K	54.65K OGJackster private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0

	7 years ago	Post 77 • IP flag post

Forum Crier 54.65K	54.65K OGJackster private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I don't have 11-14
	7 years ago	Post 78 • IP flag post

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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse_O
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
These provide an absolutely invaluable resource to understanding the history of the comic book industry, along with tremendous insights into what was popular, when, why, and how much, from the perspective of the people who were living it at the time.

I DID live in it at the time!!!

You misunderstand.

I'm talking about people who were WRITING about the comic book industry and PUBLISHING those articles at the time.

Unless you're a lot older than I thought, I'm fairly certain you weren't writing for The Comics Journal or CBG in 1983, were you...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JO
And from MY perspective, Alpha Flight was NEVER "immensely popular". At least, not in the area I lived in and the other collectors that I knew at the time. Do you consider West Coast Avengers "immensely popular" also? They are another team that we laughed at back then. Yet, WCA (and later AWC) lasted for 102 issues. AF lasted for 130. So, by that measure, AF was only slightly more successful than WCA.

Your perspective doesn't square with what actually happened.

Or do you dispute this:

The amount of issues a title ran has very, very little to do with popularity. Sales of Batman in the mid 80s were in the tank. In fact, sales from 1985 were down more than 90% (75k copies avg SOLD) of the 1966 high (900k copies avg SOLD) of just 19 years earlier...but at the time, Batman was in the 370s and 380s in terms of issue numbers.

No, AF isn't remotely comparable to AWC, even though AWC did enjoy a brief moment in the spotlight, too. WCA #1 (regular series) wasn't the highest selling issue of 1985, when it came out. Even though sales reports for the title don't exist, the highest selling issue of 1983 was almost certainly Alpha Flight #1, beating even the gargantuan X-Men at the time.

Alpha Flight #1 went up gradually in back issue value from 1983-1990, peaking at $5. Not bad for a $1.00 cover price. That'd be a $4 book peaking at $20 today 4-6 years after it was published.

And, of course, the back issue values of AF appearances prior to #1 don't lie. Consider that...Machine Man #18 had a GUIDE value of $5.00, at a time when cover prices were 60 cents, and the rest of the run #2-17 was also valued at 60 cents. That's certainly not because of Wendigo.

Found my 2001 OPG:

7 years ago

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I'm not currently typing! Well, ok, I am NOW, but I wasn't then...this forum is haunted!
	7 years ago	Post 80 • IP flag post

Forum Crier 54.65K	54.65K OGJackster private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	That was tough to get to. Still, fun to see them, we haven't visited for a while.
	7 years ago	Post 81 • IP flag post

Forum Crier 54.65K	54.65K OGJackster private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	OMG! I forgot about this edition. Back in the late 80's I submitted the information about the Action Comics #1 Nestle Quik reprint. They added the information and printed my name in the acknowledgment section of the #19 OPG.
	7 years ago	Post 82 • IP flag post

-Our Odin- Rest in Peace 39.35K	39.35K Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@DocBrown I must be missing something here. I see a book published about John Byrne that came out in 1984. Since he helped create the Alpha Flight, it makes sense that Marina, Snowbird and Aurora would be on the cover. And the CBG article? All it says in regards to Alpha Flight is "Alpha Flight #12 will feature the death of a major character." That turned out to be Guardian. Calling him a "major character" is a bit of a stretch. Yes, he WAS an important character in Alpha Flight, but in the scope of Marvel comics, I don't think he'd rank as a major character. It reads more like a Marvel press release than any hard hitting investigative narrative.
	7 years ago	Post 83 • IP flag post

-Our Odin- Rest in Peace 39.35K	39.35K Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@OGJackster Very cool on the name mention!!!!
	7 years ago	Post 84 • IP flag post

Captain Corrector 6.12K	6.12K CaptainCanuck private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck @OGJackster Quote: Originally Posted by OGJackster Today Kevin Smith stated that he thinks Alpha Flight should be the next boundary-pushing team to have a movie made about them. For speculators, keep an eye out on X-Men #120, first appearance and #121 first full appearance. Another instance of First Cameo (X-Men #120) currently worth more than First Full Appearance (X-Men #121) It all started out as one innocent little comment. Similar thing happened when I posted in the “Newsstand is Dead” cover contest lol.
	7 years ago	Post 85 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jesse_O @DocBrown I must be missing something here. I see a book published about John Byrne that came out in 1984. Since he helped create the Alpha Flight, it makes sense that Marina, Snowbird and Aurora would be on the cover. And the CBG article? All it says in regards to Alpha Flight is "Alpha Flight #12 will feature the death of a major character." That turned out to be Guardian. Calling him a "major character" is a bit of a stretch. Yes, he WAS an important character in Alpha Flight, but in the scope of Marvel comics, I don't think he'd rank as a major character. It reads more like a Marvel press release than any hard hitting investigative narrative. Yes, you're missing something. Those are examples of the impact that AF had on the comics world. Do you see Storm, or Phoenix, or Kitty Pryde, or Dazzler, or even Wolverine, or Reed Richards, or Ben Grimm...? No. What do you see? Susan Richards, who Byrne did NOT create...and three members of Alpha Flight. The CBG is an example of a top of the fold, front page news item about Guardian's death in Alpha Flight. You say "calling him a "major character" is a bit of a stretch", but the writer of CBG obviously didn't think so. They are examples of the impact AF had on the comics industry of the time. I will be more than happy to provide further examples as I come across them. And you didn't address the price guide values at all. What do you have to say about those...? Do you think they were inventions by Overstreet, who didn't like modern comics to begin with, in an attempt to dupe the comics buying public into thinking AF was much bigger than it was? What answer have you for the fact that AF was broken out, from a very young age, in the OPG, in titles like Machine Man, of all places? Hmmm...?
	7 years ago	Post 86 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by OGJackster That was tough to get to. Still, fun to see them, we haven't visited for a while. So, what does OPG #37, 38, and whatever the last one you have there have to say with regard to X-Men #120 and #121? Let's narrow the search for when the OPG changed it.
	7 years ago	Post 87 • IP flag post

Collector 1.11K	1.11K Redshade private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jesse_O @DocBrown, so because there is no "team picture", it's a cameo? No. I'll say it again: The people who compose the team known as "Alpha Flight" appear on panel only in their civilian identities. They do not appear AS ALPHA FLIGHT (that is, in costume, as super heroes) until the last page, and various arms, legs, and other appendages in a couple more panels in the book. Now...think about it: if Clark Kent didn't show up in costume, would you say Superman had appeared in that story...? The answer, of course, is no. But it's nice of you to acknowledge my post. Clark Kent IS Superman, so if Clark Kent appeared then Superman appeared, they are the same person. If Alpha Flight appeared whatever their clothing then Alpha Flight appeared. You are just twisting semantics to justify your own hectoring-listen-to-me-I-am-shouting-loudest-and-therefore-I-am-right opinions.
	7 years ago	Post 88 • IP flag post

-Our Odin- Rest in Peace 39.35K	39.35K Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	I see that cover as the impact that the womens' movement had on comics. The early 80's were rift with womens' movement groups and events. Geraldine Ferraro ran for vice president with Mondale in 1984. John Byrne already had one art book published in 1980, "The Art of John Byrne Volume 1". Byrne was working primarily on FF and AF at the time this book came out. They wanted a cover that would showcase his current work and appeal to women. Pretty straight forward marketing strategy in my mind. As for the prices, I'd say part of it was due to the rising cost of comics in general. In 1983, the basic cover price was .60. In 1990 it was $1.00. I realize that isn't 4 times, but I believe it played a part. Also, number 1's in nm condition have a history of appreciating over the years. Especially if a title is still relevant. Alpha Flight was still being published in 1990. It really does not surprise me at all to see that increase. Is it an indicator of popularity, it is ONE indicator of popularity.
	7 years ago	Post 89 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Redshade Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jesse_O @DocBrown, so because there is no "team picture", it's a cameo? No. I'll say it again: The people who compose the team known as "Alpha Flight" appear on panel only in their civilian identities. They do not appear AS ALPHA FLIGHT (that is, in costume, as super heroes) until the last page, and various arms, legs, and other appendages in a couple more panels in the book. Now...think about it: if Clark Kent didn't show up in costume, would you say Superman had appeared in that story...? The answer, of course, is no. But it's nice of you to acknowledge my post. Clark Kent IS Superman, so if Clark Kent appeared then Superman appeared, they are the same person. If Alpha Flight appeared whatever their clothing then Alpha Flight appeared. You are just twisting semantics to justify your own hectoring-listen-to-me-I-am-shouting-loudest-and-therefore-I-am-right opinions. There's no need to make a personal attack. That IS a violation of this board's terms of service, whether they are actually enforced or not. If you disagree, you are just as free as anyone else to formulate and express your own opinion, and I'm quite certain no one will accuse you of "hectoring-listen-to-me-I-am-shouting-loudest-and-therefore-I-am-right." If, however, you are not capable of having a disagreement without making these types of personal remarks, I would highly recommend you refrain from replying to what I say completely. They are, I would assume, beneath you, and only serve to create conflict where it isn't necessary. Thank you. As to your specific claim...obviously, since there are examples of characters appearing "out of costume" (the most famous perhaps being More Fun #51-53), it depends on context, but I would suspect that the vast, vast majority of people who collect comics would disagree that just because Clark Kent appeared in a story, that therefore "Superman did too."
	7 years ago	Post 90 • IP flag post

Collector 1.11K	1.11K Redshade private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Redshade Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jesse_O @DocBrown, so because there is no "team picture", it's a cameo? No. I'll say it again: The people who compose the team known as "Alpha Flight" appear on panel only in their civilian identities. They do not appear AS ALPHA FLIGHT (that is, in costume, as super heroes) until the last page, and various arms, legs, and other appendages in a couple more panels in the book. Now...think about it: if Clark Kent didn't show up in costume, would you say Superman had appeared in that story...? The answer, of course, is no. But it's nice of you to acknowledge my post. Clark Kent IS Superman, so if Clark Kent appeared then Superman appeared, they are the same person. If Alpha Flight appeared whatever their clothing then Alpha Flight appeared. You are just twisting semantics to justify your own hectoring-listen-to-me-I-am-shouting-loudest-and-therefore-I-am-right opinions. There's no need to make a personal attack. That IS a violation of this board's terms of service, whether they are actually enforced or not. If you disagree, you are just as free as anyone else to formulate and express your own opinion, and I'm quite certain no one will accuse you of "hectoring-listen-to-me-I-am-shouting-loudest-and-therefore-I-am-right." If, however, you are not capable of having a disagreement without making these types of personal remarks, I would highly recommend you refrain from replying to what I say completely. They are, I would assume, beneath you, and only serve to create conflict where it isn't necessary. Thank you. As to your specific claim...obviously, since there are examples of characters appearing "out of costume" (the most famous perhaps being More Fun #51-53), it depends on context, but I would suspect that the vast, vast majority of people who collect comics would disagree that just because Clark Kent appeared in a story, that therefore "Superman did too." Oh dear, the lady doth protest too much, methinks. I am not making a "personal attack" and I would hope that I am not "violating the board's terms of service" and I am not "creating conflict" at all, I think that you are playing (over-playing) the victim card. I leave such actions to your good self.
	7 years ago	Post 91 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse_O
I see that cover as the impact that the womens' movement had on comics. The early 80's were rift with womens' movement groups and events. Geraldine Ferraro ran for vice president with Mondale in 1984. John Byrne already had one art book published in 1980, "The Art of John Byrne Volume 1". Byrne was working primarily on FF and AF at the time this book came out. They wanted a cover that would showcase his current work and appeal to women. Pretty straight forward marketing strategy in my mind.

I think you mean "rife", and as I said before, the book is a look at the career of John Byrne. At the time it was published, there wasn't anything hotter than the X-Men, which was, and would remain, the #1 selling title in comics for quite some years.

And yet, they chose to put on the cover NOT any of the female X-Men...but three members of Alpha Flight.

Yes, John Byrne was working on Alpha Flight at the time...but that's not the only reason why a book about the career of John Byrne featured ZERO X-Men on the cover, the characters that made him a superstar, and several members of Alpha Flight instead.

It wasn't because Alpha Flight wasn't popular...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JO

As for the prices, I'd say part of it was due to the rising cost of comics in general. In 1983, the basic cover price was .60. In 1990 it was $1.00. I realize that isn't 4 times, but I believe it played a part. Also, number 1's in nm condition have a history of appreciating over the years. Especially if a title is still relevant. Alpha Flight was still being published in 1990. It really does not surprise me at all to see that increase. Is it an indicator of popularity, it is ONE indicator of popularity.

So, Machine Man #18...which had an OPG value of $5.00 in the 1987 OPG...when cover prices for standard comics (DC, Marvel, Archie, etc.) were 75 cents...and the rest of the run, #2-17, had an OPG value of 60 cents...that's just a function of "the rising cost of comics"...? It had nothing whatsoever to do with the appearance of Alpha Flight...?

Or X-Men #139 and #140, which had an $11 OPG value in that same OPG, when #129, the first Kitty Pryde, was only $10, #131-136, 138 were only $8, #137 was also only $10, and X-Men #141 and #142 were $4.80 and $3.80 respectively...? That was just due to the rising cost of comics? Nothing to do with the popularity of AF...?

...really?

7 years ago

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Redshade Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Redshade Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jesse_O @DocBrown, so because there is no "team picture", it's a cameo? No. I'll say it again: The people who compose the team known as "Alpha Flight" appear on panel only in their civilian identities. They do not appear AS ALPHA FLIGHT (that is, in costume, as super heroes) until the last page, and various arms, legs, and other appendages in a couple more panels in the book. Now...think about it: if Clark Kent didn't show up in costume, would you say Superman had appeared in that story...? The answer, of course, is no. But it's nice of you to acknowledge my post. Clark Kent IS Superman, so if Clark Kent appeared then Superman appeared, they are the same person. If Alpha Flight appeared whatever their clothing then Alpha Flight appeared. You are just twisting semantics to justify your own hectoring-listen-to-me-I-am-shouting-loudest-and-therefore-I-am-right opinions. There's no need to make a personal attack. That IS a violation of this board's terms of service, whether they are actually enforced or not. If you disagree, you are just as free as anyone else to formulate and express your own opinion, and I'm quite certain no one will accuse you of "hectoring-listen-to-me-I-am-shouting-loudest-and-therefore-I-am-right." If, however, you are not capable of having a disagreement without making these types of personal remarks, I would highly recommend you refrain from replying to what I say completely. They are, I would assume, beneath you, and only serve to create conflict where it isn't necessary. Thank you. As to your specific claim...obviously, since there are examples of characters appearing "out of costume" (the most famous perhaps being More Fun #51-53), it depends on context, but I would suspect that the vast, vast majority of people who collect comics would disagree that just because Clark Kent appeared in a story, that therefore "Superman did too." Oh dear, the lady doth protest too much, methinks. I am not making a "personal attack" and I would hope that I am not "violating the board's terms of service" and I am not "creating conflict" at all, I think that you are playing (over-playing) the victim card. I leave such actions to your good self. Again: there's no need for your personal attacks. If you have an argument to make, make it. If you can't make it without making personal comments about others, then maybe your argument isn't that strong to begin with...? I mention these things to bring them to light, to expose them for what they are. I am more than capable of handling anything you could ever imagine you could toss at me, but I restrain myself from commenting in kind because it's both disrespectful to our host, and a guaranteed way to get myself suspended. I invite you to read over the thread titled "New Message Board Atmosphere" for further information. It's stickied to the top of the forum. In other words, "don't get mad, brah." Make better arguments.
	7 years ago	Post 93 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	To illustrate the point further, which of these pictures is a picture of Superman, and which is a picture of Clark Kent: Also...this IS Batman: ...but it is NOT Bruce Wayne.
	7 years ago	Post 94 • IP flag post

-Our Odin- Rest in Peace 39.35K	39.35K Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I agree that Alpha Flight plays a part in those books rising in values. I was talking about Alpha Flight #1 specifically. But let's take those same books and see how they compare now. After all, the sign of a truly level 1 group or character is staying power. I see X-men #129, 137 and 141 outpricing all of the others except for #120 and 121. And Machineman #18?? Has that price changed in the last 10 years?? That one tanked. Machineman #1 is worth more now. It's clear we disagree on this. What level group would YOU consider AF to be? I'll give it a solid 3, edging to a 2. How about you?? From 1 to 5. And you are correct, I meant rife.
	7 years ago	Post 95 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	And then there's this: http://thedorkreview.blogspot.com/2014/06/superman-does-not-appear-in-marvel.html Clark Kent appearances...in Marvel Comics...in which Superman is, for legal reasons, nowhere to be seen. Clearly, the writer of the above blog agrees with the "if not in costume, it's not an appearance." And, of course, that's been the tradition for decades.
	7 years ago	Post 96 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse_O
I agree that Alpha Flight plays a part in those books rising in values. I was talking about Alpha Flight #1 specifically.

But let's take those same books and see how they compare now. After all, the sign of a truly level 1 group or character is staying power. I see X-men #129, 137 and 141 outpricing all of the others except for #120 and 121. And Machineman #18?? Has that price changed in the last 10 years?? That one tanked. Machineman #1 is worth more now.

Not at all in dispute. AF took a massive dive in popularity by the early 90s and never recovered. Along with that went values as back issues. And the only reason #120 is as expensive as it is is because it's a bitch to find in high grade because every little flaw shows up like it was under a spotlight. Otherwise, #120 would track with #121 in value, which is substantially lower than #129, and about on par with #141.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JO
It's clear we disagree on this. What level group would YOU consider AF to be? I'll give it a solid 3, edging to a 2. How about you?? From 1 to 5.

I'm not sure we disagree at all. AF has been beset by lame, uninspired creators since the late 80s. It's a group that saw its greatest expression by and under John Byrne...by far.

Since then, it's been nothing but mediocre to bad to terrible. AF is, at best, a fourth rate superhero team.

But they didn't start out that way...

7 years ago

-Our Odin- Rest in Peace 39.35K	39.35K Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown AF has been beset by lame, uninspired creators since the late 80s. It's a group that saw its greatest expression by and under John Byrne...by far. THAT we are in total agreement on!!! I guess my disdain from them stems from the fact that I really did like them when they came out. Alas, I was the lone person with that opinion among my peers. But then, somewhere around the first appearance of Lady Deathstrike (#33) something changed. Maybe it was in my life or maybe it was the comic, but I lost all hope for it around then and went over to the "dark side". They became my least favorite Marvel team until Great Lake Avengers (another John Byrne creation) hit the scene in the late 80's early 90's.
	7 years ago	Post 98 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jesse_O @DocBrown I must be missing something here. I see a book published about John Byrne that came out in 1984. Since he helped create the Alpha Flight, it makes sense that Marina, Snowbird and Aurora would be on the cover. And the CBG article? All it says in regards to Alpha Flight is "Alpha Flight #12 will feature the death of a major character." That turned out to be Guardian. Calling him a "major character" is a bit of a stretch. Yes, he WAS an important character in Alpha Flight, but in the scope of Marvel comics, I don't think he'd rank as a major character. It reads more like a Marvel press release than any hard hitting investigative narrative. I think your circle back then was the aberration. Alpha Flight was hugely popular and anticipation for their own series was big before it came out.
	7 years ago	Post 99 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I'd also like to add that early on, X-Men #121 went for more than #120 as a back issue locally in Chicago.
	7 years ago	Post 100 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Note to "Logan510": it would be very much appreciated if you would stop using the "Like" button as a cudgel. Thanks.
	7 years ago	Post 101 • IP flag post

Collector 1.11K	1.11K Redshade private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Note to "Logan510": it would be very much appreciated if you would stop using the "Like" button as a cudgel. Thanks. Not really understanding what you mean here. Is this a case of giving it but can't take it?
	7 years ago	Post 102 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Redshade Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Note to "Logan510": it would be very much appreciated if you would stop using the "Like" button as a cudgel. Thanks. Not really understanding what you mean here. Is this a case of giving it but can't take it? Why are you trying to pick a fight? There's no answer I can give that would be acceptable to you, because you're not looking for understanding. You're just looking to create conflict to "score points." Just because it isn't enforced, doesn't mean it's not a violation.
	7 years ago	Post 103 • IP flag post

Collector 1.11K	1.11K Redshade private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Oh dear. Playing the victim again? I am not looking to pick a fight. Man, know thyself. Enough is enough.
	7 years ago	Post 104 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Redshade Oh dear. Playing the victim again. Enough is enough. Yes, indeed it is. Like I said earlier, I can handle anything your imagination could possibly conjure up, but I will not respond in kind, because 1. it is disrespectful to our host, and 2. it will cause me to be suspended. Since I like posting here, I restrain myself. Why can't you? If you take a swing at me, I'm going to point it out. All of this "you're the one who tries to start arguments" nonsense is deflection from the people trying to pick fights. No surprise there. So, I will simply call out the REAL fire starting for what it is, and hopefully, at some point, it will make enough of an impact on those in charge that they take it seriously. The answer is beyond simple: if you don't like what someone says, or the way they say it, your options are to ignore them, and/or take it up with moderation. I'm pretty sure you're not a moderator, so it's none of your business to lecture other members about how and what to post, making personal attacks, when it has nothing to do with you. Anyone wanting to see where the trouble actually starts? Look no further than post #88. Enough IS enough.
	7 years ago	Post 105 • IP flag post

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