X-Men #1206418
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Quote:Originally Posted by CaptainCanuck True, but that book (Marvel Premiere #19) came out AFTER Hulk #180. But what of Iron Fist #13...which contains a very obvious cameo of Sabretooth, but which has NEVER gotten any widespread acknowledgement...? (The answer is because it's an ad, a preview...not a story appearance. Same with New Mutants #86.) |
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Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown And new mutants annual #6 (first Shatterstar, via a pin-up)! |
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Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown And I did that on post #19. Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown @DocBrown - I don't have a 30+ year collection of OPG's. Do you happen to know when they switched to the terms that @OGJackster posted a screenshot of in post #21?  |
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| Another issue I just thought of is if it went to "first mention", the value and demand for free preview books would exponentially rise. Here's a question. What is the first appearance of The Walking Dead? Capes #1 has a 5-page "preview" of The Walking Dead but not considered the 1st... or is it?  |
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 I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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| They do count previews. DC Comics Presents 26 for Starfire, Raven, and Cyborg and New Teen Titans 16 for Captain Carrot. | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by Jesse_O Excellent! Glad we agree. Quote: Originally Posted by JO You don't need a 30+ year collection of OPGs. You merely need to be more inquisitive, and less inclined to settle on conclusions before the matter is fully investigated. You have resources available to you of which you don't seem aware or to be taking advantage. I do not know when they switched. I would imagine it was in the last 5-10 years. The handiest OPG I have is 2000; the rest are packed. |
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OGJackster private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jesse_O I had easy access to Overstreet Price Update '87.   |
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Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Good point, just as Avengers #32 is the 1st appearance of Bill Foster, not Black Goliath. |
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Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @OGJackster Thank you for finding that!!! Ok - so somewhere between OPG #15 (1985) and the OPG 1987 update, they decided that #120 was the first appearance. It wasn't "a couple of decades" that it was debated. Yet, CGC, in 2000, decided to call #120 a cameo. Interesting. | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by MR_SigS And there are tons...or tonnes...of examples of this in comics. |
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| Guess Alpha Flight just isn't important enough to get the facts straight about. Haha | ||
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Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user | |
| LOL!!!! | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jesse_O No. You are incorrect. Here's a picture of the 1987 OPG (the "Big" Guide):  1991 OPG:  2000 OPG: Sorry for the fuzzy pictures, but you'll see that all of those listings, as well as every OPG in between (and almost certainly up to 2005 or later) had the word "cameo" in the description for #120. You'll notice, in that picture from the 1987 Update, that there is a ton of information that is missing, but IS included in the "Big Guide." This is because the Updates weren't meant to be exhaustive...that was the goal of the big guide. For example...do you see ANY mention of the "Phoenix" for X-Men #100 or #101? Now, look back at the OPG that was published 6 months before the Update...and see what it says. The Updates, in fact, didn't report many titles, and only reported books going back to about 1955-56. Again...more inquisitive, less inclined to come to conclusions before the matter is fully investigated. The quest for knowledge isn't a contest. |
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| "LOL!!!", I suppose...? | ||
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OGJackster private msg quote post Address this user | |
Official Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide Companion (FIRST EDITION, 1987)  |
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| I have a #10, 1980 price guide, I'll see if ai can find it. | ||
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Alpha Flight, as mentioned earlier, wasn't broken out in OPG #10: From #11-#14, they were treated as essentially the same: "120, 121-Alpha Flight"...and that's it, with some adjustment, until the 1985 OPG (#15.) |
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Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Yeah, this isn't confusing at all!!!! LOL!!!! So, we now know that in 2000, when CGC came on the scene, OPG still said cameo for #120. At some point, they changed that, and there is no evidence of CGC changing also. The picture is getting clearer. And I can see how this all happened, because honestly, Alpha Flight was a 3rd or 4th rate team. They were greatly overlooked. Personally, I enjoyed them and that is why this topic interests me. TBH, I really never cared when their first appearance was. They were just a fun read, nothing I ever took too seriously as far as collecting. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by OGJackster Nice, Jack! I don't even have that one! Those were published for the "book store" chains that didn't think they had a market for the Big Guide. They were purposely printed to look like the other "price guides" for collectibles at the time. Very nice! |
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Quote:Originally Posted by Jesse_O No, it's really not. Quote: Originally Posted by Jesse_O According to whom? Alpha Flight was IMMENSELY popular in the early and mid 80's, so much so that they are one of the very few teams in the entirety of comics history to have their appearances broken out and sought after. X-Men #120, 121, 139, 140, Machine Man #18...all highly desired because of Alpha Flight. For a long time, X-Men #139 and #140 were worth more than #141 and #142 because of AF. Look at the price of MM #18 vs. the rest of the series (1987 OPG):  That doesn't seem to me to be what a 3rd or 4th rate team would be capable of. One of the best selling, if not THE best selling, books of 1983 was Alpha Flight #1, written and drawn by Byrne at the absolute pinnacle of his career. AF has certainly seen better times, and they are certainly a 3rd or 4th rate team NOW...but they DID see much better times. If AF hadn't been so popular, no one would have cared. Do you see a "1st Proteus" designation? Or a "1st Eric the Red"? Or even a "1st White Queen"...? I GREATLY recommend acquiring and reading any of a number of publications of the time period that deal with what was going on in the industry, starting, of course, with the OPGs, the OPG Updates, Comics Journal, Comics Buyer's Guide, and anything else you can get your hands on from the time period. These provide an absolutely invaluable resource to understanding the history of the comic book industry, along with tremendous insights into what was popular, when, why, and how much, from the perspective of the people who were living it at the time. Quote: Originally Posted by Jesse_O Quote: Originally Posted by JO I appreciate your acknowledgement that your first statement was incorrect. Also, a point of clarity: I mentioned that the debate about what to call X-Men #120 was debated for a few years...from 1980-1984...before they settled on what would become the OPG standard for the next 20 years. I didn't say it was debated for a couple of decades, if that's what your statement is referring to. This discussion has been an absolute pleasure. I humbly thank you for the opportunity. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by OGJackster PS...can anybody spot the errors...? |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by OGJackster This has been the delineating difference: is the preview a real "preview" of pages that are going to be printed in "the official release", or is the preview its own, standalone story? In the case of DC Comics Presents #26, that story is a standalone story that leads into NTT #1. In the case of Walking Dead #1...it's just the first five pages of issue #1, page for page. That's why Capes #1 and Agents #6 hasn't been considered the "first appearance." Of course, you can imagine if they had, a la Hulk #180-182 style, introduced Rick Grimes in a standalone story all his own prior to WD #1. That seems to me to be the most logical differentiation. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown If my math is correct the X Men 1 has risen about 1000% since 1987 and the S and P has risen about 300% My error was not investing in high end comics back then. Hard to make it up now, but the comic guys were smarter than me. I do have a terrible #1 though, that’s something! |
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Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown I DID live in it at the time!!! And from MY perspective, Alpha Flight was NEVER "immensely popular". At least, not in the area I lived in and the other collectors that I knew at the time. Do you consider West Coast Avengers "immensely popular" also? They are another team that we laughed at back then. Yet, WCA (and later AWC) lasted for 102 issues. AF lasted for 130. So, by that measure, AF was only slightly more successful than WCA. |
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Quote:Originally Posted by doog If we're comparing 1987 Update value to top 2017 OPG value, it's substantially more than 1000%, which would only be $5500. But comparing the two is really not possible. That price...$540...was the 1987 price for books that could grade, and have graded, anywhere from between 6.0 and 9.4 today, restored and unrestored alike. That range is so wide, there's no real way to compare what such a price would have actually bought in 1987. |
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OGJackster private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Found my price guides at the bottom of a stack of boxed. It'll take a few but I'll get to them. | ||
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I don't have 11-14  |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jesse_O You misunderstand. I'm talking about people who were WRITING about the comic book industry and PUBLISHING those articles at the time. Unless you're a lot older than I thought, I'm fairly certain you weren't writing for The Comics Journal or CBG in 1983, were you...? Quote: Originally Posted by JO Your perspective doesn't square with what actually happened. Or do you dispute this:   The amount of issues a title ran has very, very little to do with popularity. Sales of Batman in the mid 80s were in the tank. In fact, sales from 1985 were down more than 90% (75k copies avg SOLD) of the 1966 high (900k copies avg SOLD) of just 19 years earlier...but at the time, Batman was in the 370s and 380s in terms of issue numbers. No, AF isn't remotely comparable to AWC, even though AWC did enjoy a brief moment in the spotlight, too. WCA #1 (regular series) wasn't the highest selling issue of 1985, when it came out. Even though sales reports for the title don't exist, the highest selling issue of 1983 was almost certainly Alpha Flight #1, beating even the gargantuan X-Men at the time. Alpha Flight #1 went up gradually in back issue value from 1983-1990, peaking at $5. Not bad for a $1.00 cover price. That'd be a $4 book peaking at $20 today 4-6 years after it was published. And, of course, the back issue values of AF appearances prior to #1 don't lie. Consider that...Machine Man #18 had a GUIDE value of $5.00, at a time when cover prices were 60 cents, and the rest of the run #2-17 was also valued at 60 cents. That's certainly not because of Wendigo. Found my 2001 OPG:  |
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