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Grading Help Needed

My comic seems overgraded6224

Collector slabberbag private msg quote post Address this user
I bought a comic that has the following defects:

1) "production tears" that were on the front and back covers
2) a weird blue stain that stained the front, top and back pages and another blue marker spot on the comic

The grader notes mention the production tears, but don't mention the blue stain at all for some reason, which is very disappointing because it's pretty obvious. I know there's no fraud involved because the picture taken by CBCS has the blue stain on it, but I didn't notice it because of the poor resolution.

The comic has an additional spine stress that breaks color. Assuming that those defects are the only problems with the comic, can it still be a 9.2 comic or was a mistake made?






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Collector GanaSoth private msg quote post Address this user
I do believe that "production" issues are taken into effect and careful consideration when grading comics. Store stamps etc as well. I do believe they do not take away from the comic's grade. Also, depending on how old the comic is, gets less strict grading grades (they are on the curb of grading).
We do not know if it was graded fairly or not as you didn't include a picture of the entire comic book.
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Collector QuaBrot private msg quote post Address this user
Blue stains are common, from distributors spraying comics from that era to mark them as returns (what I've heard from one LCS), and the rips you see at the edge there are production rips - so they are all considered part of the process and are not defects in the usual sense (i.e. things that happened to the comic after it was bought/produced - the blue stain I guess being similar to date stamp or notation which doesn't affect grade as that was part of the process of selling the books).
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Collector Tdog13 private msg quote post Address this user
I have a copy of that same ASM 121 being graded right now. It too had the production tears on the front bottom. I hope I get as high a grade as you did.
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Back in the days before publishers printed coding color bars in the books, some newsstand distributors would spray paint the stacks of new books to make it easier for a vendor to pull books that needed to be pulled from sale (the cover month) and returned for credit. "Blue" meant "pull in June, 1973" in this case.

It's called "distributor overspray" and doesn't have too much an effect on the grade. The "blue marker" is probably just stray printer's ink. You can tell by holding the book up to a raking light. If the gloss and texture of the spot is the same as the rest of the cover surrounding it, it's usually part of the production of the book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GanaSoth
Also, depending on how old the comic is, gets less strict grading grades (they are on the curb of grading).


That's probably why my tires are so worn out...they keep hitting the grading curb.
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CBCS TimBildhauser private msg quote post Address this user
The posts above explain this fairly well. Distributor ink, unless it's an excessive amount (which this is not), doesn't really have an impact on the grade. The same goes for the production tears on the bottom edge. They're not uncommon.

Things of this nature might keep a book from reaching 9.8 but are allowable in the 9.2 range.
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Collector GanaSoth private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown

Quote:
Originally Posted by GanaSoth
Also, depending on how old the comic is, gets less strict grading grades (they are on the curb of grading).


That's probably why my tires are so worn out...they keep hitting the grading curb.


Hahaha thats actually pretty funny. (Was supposed to be curve.) Thats what happens when the phone has auto-text/correct features and one doesn't proof-read what they text.
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Collector Homer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimBildhauser
The posts above explain this fairly well. Distributor ink, unless it's an excessive amount (which this is not), doesn't really have an impact on the grade. The same goes for the production tears on the bottom edge. They're not uncommon.

Things of this nature might keep a book from reaching 9.8 but are allowable in the 9.2 range.


Could you define "excessive amount" when it comes to distributor ink.
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Collector GanaSoth private msg quote post Address this user
@Homer Here are some pics of excessive amounts.



Post 9 IP   flag post
Collector Homer private msg quote post Address this user
@GanaSoth yes those look like excessive amounts. However where does the line cross from excessive to acceptable. Is it one square inch, is it worse with darker purple, less lighter blue.
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GanaSoth
@Homer Here are some pics of excessive amounts.



Now there’s a perfect example of “buy the book not the grade”. Holy hell. Imagine one’s fury if they got a good deal on an unseen H181 6.5 and this mess showed up.

I wouldnt pay more than 1.5 money for that.

Imo it should count heavily against grade if its any more than a 1.5” edge spray with no more than 1/8” bleed into the top/back cover.
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Collector GanaSoth private msg quote post Address this user
@Homer I honestly dont know. Its kinda like the missing pieces on covers, there is a certain amount that can be missing before it gets incomplete. But as to how much is excessive, guess there is a rule? I'm not sure.
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Collector Homer private msg quote post Address this user
@GanaSoth
I think the grading companies just put there grading opinion on the book, its a judgement call on how much is allowed. I have sent in many of Spidey 361 which has those tears on the bottom and the staples seem to have small tears also, one day they get 9.6 grades, the next they fail a pre screen, than the next they are 9.8. It is what it is, its a grading opinion with the severity of production flaws getting a free pass or factored into the grade.
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Now there’s a perfect example of “buy the book not the grade”. Holy hell. Imagine one’s fury if they got a good deal on an unseen H181 6.5 and this mess showed up.


There are plenty of people who aren't bothered by that, understanding the realities of comic book distribution back in the mid-70s. Other than the sun-fading on the spine, the book looks like an otherwise very nice copy. And I know there are many, many people who would be thrilled to pay a 6.5 price for what might otherwise structurally be 9.0-9.4 copy.

What is a "mess" to you isn't a problem for others. It's just some light paint spatter.

That's the danger of blanket statements.
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
What is a "mess" to you isn't a problem for others. It's just some light paint spatter


So you wouldnt call paint splatter on a comic book a “mess” lol... OK. To each their own 👌🏻
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Originally Posted by DocBrown
What is a "mess" to you isn't a problem for others. It's just some light paint spatter


So you wouldnt call paint splatter on a comic book a “mess” lol... OK. To each their own


That's not what I said.

I said what is a "mess" to you isn't a PROBLEM for others.

(emphasis added)

As with everything, it depends entirely on the item in question. In this case, again, it's just some light paint spatter. It's not anywhere near as bad as the pool of ink on the "Melvin" copy posted above.

If this paint spatter was on a Batman #473, I'd call it a mess, and toss it in a giveaway box.

But on this Hulk #181...? No problem.

And at least one buyer, on Mar 27, 2017, agreed. The price paid for this exact book in this grade...$1275...was right in line with the average at that time. It was on the LOW side of the average, so yes, eye appeal did affect the final price a bit...but it certainly didn't sell for a "1.5" price (which was about $600, based on a Mar 7, 2017 sale.)
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CBCS TimBildhauser private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GanaSoth
@Homer I honestly dont know. Its kinda like the missing pieces on covers, there is a certain amount that can be missing before it gets incomplete. But as to how much is excessive, guess there is a rule? I'm not sure.
It varies based on the book & how it affects eye appeal. If it's only on the back cover it won't take as big of a grade hit as if it affects the front cover.

There isn't really a standard for it. It's determined on a case by case basis.
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Collector BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by GanaSoth
@Homer Here are some pics of excessive amounts.



Now there’s a perfect example of “buy the book not the grade”. Holy hell. Imagine one’s fury if they got a good deal on an unseen H181 6.5 and this mess showed up.

I wouldnt pay more than 1.5 money for that.

Imo it should count heavily against grade if its any more than a 1.5” edge spray with no more than 1/8” bleed into the top/back cover.



I agree with Shrewbeer here.

That is one ugly mess of a book. Not even worth $50 bucks to me, and only if I had a buyer that wasn't bothered by the awful looking splattering(I can't image there are many)
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Collector VCBE private msg quote post Address this user
Production errors are 100% taken from the grade as I have had many talks with them about that issue. Grading I believe was one of the WORST things that ever happen to Comics. Because they are subjective and not a FACT it's the grade, facts come out the EXACT SAME EVERY TIME. They have 3 graders and they NEVER agree sometimes a grade and half apart and they meet in the middle. For some reason, Graders who grade newer books don't grade older book as they GRADE THEM DIFFERENTLY... WHY??? Isn't a grade a grade??? Grading comics got everyone by the B*LLS but that what you have to do and we at all at their mercy, also it's who you know...
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Collector Homer private msg quote post Address this user
@VCBE No one is at the mercy of the grading companies. If you have dislike, you have the option to only buy raw books, and only sell raw books. No one is forcing anyone to get involved with graded books.
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by VCBE
also it's who you know...

Please elaborate

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCBE
They have 3 graders and they NEVER agree

If I recall correctly, someone from CBCS commented the last time you said that and discredited as not true (I think it was TB)
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by VCBE
also it's who you know...

Please elaborate

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCBE
They have 3 graders and they NEVER agree

If I recall correctly, someone from CBCS commented the last time you said that and discredited as not true (I think it was TB)


You are correct, This is from the "First CBCS Submission" thread.







First CBCS Submission
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CBCS TimBildhauser private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by VCBE
also it's who you know...

Please elaborate

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCBE
They have 3 graders and they NEVER agree

If I recall correctly, someone from CBCS commented the last time you said that and discredited as not true (I think it was TB)
It was in fact me and I'm going to do it again now.

@VCBE Who exactly are you talking to that's telling you that production flaws count against the grade of the book? It depends on the nature of the defect and the overall grade of the book. For example... a 1/4" bindery tear at the top or bottom of the spine on a book that's an 8.5 doesn't affect the grade of that book AT ALL. There are many types of production flaws that are completely ignored on books and don't impact the grade unless it's a matter of the book getting a 9.8 in which case it might (sometimes, not always) hold it back from 9.8.

Also, where are you getting the (incredibly wrong) fact that all 3 graders are not only a grade and a half apart and they don't agree on a grade 100% of the time? It looks like, once again, we have a case of you running off at the mouth about things you really, truly know nothing about. I mentioned before that unless you've spent time in the grading room at either CBCS or CGC that there's no way you would ever have the kind of insight into the process that you claim to have. I sincerely doubt CGC let you hang out in their grading room and I know for sure that during the time I was grading at CBCS (about 3 years) you weren't in the room.
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by VCBE
Production errors are 100% taken from the grade as I have had many talks with them about that issue. Grading I believe was one of the WORST things that ever happen to Comics. Because they are subjective and not a FACT it's the grade, facts come out the EXACT SAME EVERY TIME. They have 3 graders and they NEVER agree sometimes a grade and half apart and they meet in the middle. For some reason, Graders who grade newer books don't grade older book as they GRADE THEM DIFFERENTLY... WHY??? Isn't a grade a grade??? Grading comics got everyone by the B*LLS but that what you have to do and we at all at their mercy, also it's who you know...


Let me ask you this: would you prefer the bad old days, where restored books were being sold as unrestored, and overgrading was so rampant, people just accepted that a "Near Mint" book had 10-20 color breaking spine tics, and a 2" color breaking crease?

I do not. I'm very happy to buy a CBCS 9.8 graded book and have it actually be pretty darn close to perfect. VERY happy. Thrilled, actually. And the additional cost to get what I want...? Doesn't even come close to matching the time, effort, annoyance, and frustration of dealing with endless cheats and villains on eBay who think the above is a description of a "mint condition!" book.

The reality is, after nearly 20 years of "graded comics", the total amount of books slabbed wouldn't account for the print run of X-Men #1 (1991.) There are billions and billions of comic books in existence. There have only been about 4-5 million books graded.

There are plenty of ungraded books to choose from, AND here's the best part: you don't need to take the grading company's word for it. You can open the slab yourself and take that comic out of it. No more problem.

I do concede your point about different grading standards for different ages. That's an unfortunate consequence of the personal perspectives of those in charge of the grading companies.
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
I agree with Shrewbeer here.

That is one ugly mess of a book. Not even worth $50 bucks to me, and only if I had a buyer that wasn't bothered by the awful looking splattering(I can't image there are many)


The free market is a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Did you see where this exact copy sold for $1275 to someone...? I bet that person was pretty happy to not have to pay $2000-$3000 for it.
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Comic book grading revolutionized the comic book market.

There would be no $1,000,000 comics...with the possible exception of the Church Action #1 or Allentown 'Tec #27...without it. There CERTAINLY wouldn't have been a $1.5M AF #15 sale.

Buying high dollar books in the slab era has never been safer. And nearly every seller, whether they offer slabs for sale or not, now has to deal with the reality of the slabbed market. No more can they sell their overgraded garbage to the unsuspecting with impunity, as they did in the bad old days. Grading has forced the market to get better, in the perfect way that the market works: the unfettered exchange of goods and services. When a seller of raw books has to compete with slabbed books, the seller gets better, or they go out of business. It's as simple as that.

There are people who paid top dollar in the late 90's for books like AF #15...that turned out to be trimmed, or color touched, or with a married interior page, or a small tear seal...who STILL...20 years later, in a market consumed with madness...STILL haven't recovered what they paid, and that's not even accounting for inflation.

For the general flaws of the practice, or the specific flaws of the companies involved, the good far outweighs the bad. Night and day difference from what "had gone before", and as someone who had to deal with the bad old days, I'll take slabbing every day of the week, and 5 times on Sunday. Return to the past...? Perish the thought.
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Collector Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimBildhauser
The posts above explain this fairly well. Distributor ink, unless it's an excessive amount (which this is not), doesn't really have an impact on the grade. The same goes for the production tears on the bottom edge. They're not uncommon.

Things of this nature might keep a book from reaching 9.8 but are allowable in the 9.2 range.

Yeah, that's what happened to my copy of ASM 121 ... it had a production tear in the back pretty much exactly like the OP. (But not the two in the front.) I thought it would be a 9.4, since it was a printer pull and in the back, but it came back 9.2. Very bummed (since the difference is, what, $500-$600?) Otherwise, it's a beauty of a book.
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