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Let's Talk Marvel "Fresh Start"5582

COLLECTOR JLS_Comics private msg quote post Address this user
I think what's being described above is a phenomenon that crept in to comic books about a decade or two ago and this is decompression. Instead of giving us a beginning, middle and end in one issue (aside from the meta/long game-story being told through the run) there is much filler added to stretch the story to 3,4,5 issues. It bloats the story, impacts the narrative and the pacing but, arguably, it sells much more copies.
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Collector thelastbard private msg quote post Address this user
@JLS_Comics Yeah, good term for it. Even if you know where you're going to end up when the story is finished, if you've "decompressed" to expand the story to five issues, there's a way to do it so it's not obvious, I think. Increase the stakes, throw in the kitchen sink, whatever.

Marvel Events have been decompressing their events for years. Let's add an issue because someone wrote more script, ha ha. Did it need to take that many issues? NOOO!!! In fact, when you look back through the issues, you think to yourself, what did they really do in all of those issues? I'm not using the Phoenix example here, but other ones where the main event series ends up being staging for a bunch of offshoots, for example. Posing and posturing in the main with little forward motion, yet people gobble it up. Yaaawwwwwnnnnnn....
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Collector Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by X51
There was an efficiency and pacing to the stories in the 60's and 70's. Modern comics don't have it. Too many static poses and wasted panels.

Too many idiotic storylines. Someone was telling me about Spider-island years back. I think Spider-Gwen and Gwen-Pool get talked about a lot. Since I'm not buying comics and have to listen to these moronic premises, all it does is turn me off from buying modern comics even more. Do they really not know how to write something more intelligent and interesting?


60 and 70's were not efficient at all. Well, 70 a bit more so but they had already gone through a bit of a revolution where the writer and artist realized that the person reading the book wasn't an idiot that had to have everything explained to them. 60's book were often overly verbose and the artist had little opportunity to display their skill unless the story called for splash pages and whatnot.

Now, IMHO, the art often can tell the story so the need to be overly verbose and patronizing has been shown the door.

You also have to understand that the industry has drastically changed. There have been so many other pressures on the industry that have whittled away their readership so they cannot afford to do too many one-off issues. They do serial story arc because that "should" people coming back issue after issue. One and done also loads up the pressure on the writer to make these one offs run together in a comprehensive continuity. Back in the 60's and 70's they didn't give a crap about continuity because they never thought that regular readers would ever question how a character could be doing one thing in one place yet also gallivanting around the world/universe apparently at the same time. Eventually Marvel had to reset their universe continuity with Secret wars and DC had to unify in to one continuity with Crisis.

Both Marvel and DC ultimately have been stuck spinning their wheel for decades though because ultimately their readers don't ever want them to change but they need to if they want to stay in business because other media can easily draw them away. So what do they do go back? that's not an option because the same readers who loved that old style would cry foul. If they do what Marvel has done in the last few years and force the change they get flac (usually by the same guys that complain regardless).

See I have no issue with change and I actually enjoy a ton of moderns but I don't get hung up on change. Change is inevitable. You either adapt with it or you just stall out. But hey comics allow for this. You don't like the new stuff? Great! There's a TON of books that you can (trick yourself into) (re)living the good old days (where there was just as much drek published). It gets a little old when you keep hammering on what others may enjoy. Especially when you don't even read them or sample around the various companies for different reads. This one of the best time in comics because you can find a book that fits your interests. If you just judge the modern industry based on what Marvel and DC does (like most of the collectors do) then I pretty much can say your POV is .... wrong.

I enjoy book from all eras but I am glad as hell they have changed over the years because if they didn't I certainly would not be reading them now.
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Collector Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by X51


I listened to an artist scoff at Jim Shooter's script because it was too thick like a phone book and it had all these links to photo references. He was proud that he'd ignored elements of the script and drew what he wanted.

There are clearly people working in the industry that have no place working in the industry.

There's another element about comics in the past that doesn't get discussed as much. The heroes had providence. They were right no matter what. They had obstacles, but their success wasn't random luck. They were a beacon of hope.

Why would I want to read about heroes that are a muddled mess every month? Hey Thor died! Isn't that horrible? Buy extra copies that'll be worthless when he comes back as a transgendered raccoon. There's nothing imaginative. Writers come up with the opposite of what people want to stir up emotion. I'm not playing the "follow the carrot on a stick" game. My dollar are therefore lost to the industry as I opt to stick with back issues. I'd much rather see a character grow and evolve to overcome newer, more challenging obstacles. If the hero dies, he's a loser. I don't buy comics to read about "hope" losing.


You shouldn't need to write a phone book script for one or even a series of comics. If you cannot get your point across simply and concisely then perhaps you should be writing a novel?

Heroes had providence back then because times were simpler and most people didn't question much about the world around them the way they do now. This all changed in the late sixties and early 70's when Marvel and DC started grounding their characters more in the real world. I think they pretty much had to. I doubt that comics would be here now if they kept the heroes having providence. Besides after the Watchmen there was no going back.

The idea is being able to relate to a character in some way. Keeping a character having providence is COMPLETELY out of touch with everyday reality. I think Stan Lee showed the world that when he created Spider-man. Outside the suit he was the everyday teen/young adult. Bruce Wayne was/is still a rich dick and Superman is still a good boy. Who can relate to that?
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Collector thelastbard private msg quote post Address this user
@Oxbladder I think those are two different discussions. Scripts don't need to be a novel, but some artists do require more "guidance" than others. I think that is the point. If you're setting a scene, sometimes you need to give more information to do so. In other areas, a simple sentence or two can do the trick for a panel, then just list out the dialogue if there is any. Give and take - more details in some places, and less in others to let the artist shine. Some artists take a certain perverse pride in throwing the rule book out the window and it actually SCREWS the colorist and, worse, the letterer, who has to struggle to figure out where to fit things (if they can). I know first hand, because I've lettered over a thousand pages of comics. It's NUTS when artists throw out the rule book because they think they know better 100% of the time, especially when they don't have the "real" experience to back it up and know when to give and take.

On the script itself, does an artist want to read a boring script with NO direction is as good a question as does a reader want to read a boring comic? If you yourself are industry, I'd pose that question to you. If you are in, active, and working, please let me know. If you're not...

Keep in mind, too, that we're not talking about plotting, scripting, dialogue - we're just talking about the one stop shop version of an all-inclusive script handed off to an artist to, front-to-back, draw a book, hand off to an inker, ink from, hand off to a colorist, color from, hand off to a letterer, letter from, etc... No Marvel-style script or dissection of responsibilities, but what the majority of the industry does. Nor are we talking about a bible-length Alan Moore comic script.

On the other side of things, of course, characters need to be relevant and in tough with reality as much as possible. That's the awesome things about what Marvel was able to key into in the 60's and still tries to do today. The trick is with any book - great writing married with great artwork that keys into the right audience.

Oh, there are a few people in the forums here that prefer to not buy new books. I buy a lot of new books. I'm always chasing good stories. I think there are some great writers who I think I can learn from. I respect those, though, who DON'T like new books. It doesn't make them any less a collector. I respect their opinions, even as I may recommend a book or three. They can poke holes in things with the best of them, and they respect our opinions, too. Please be mindful when tossing out, "you're wrong" in their direction. Just sayin'! They DO "chase the dragon," too. Their tastes just differ. We've had the music analogy. If I can find a new music release this week I like and they can't, it doesn't mean they're dated... it just means they haven't found a new artist YET that they like. It doesn't mean they won't.
Post 55 IP   flag post


Collector X51 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxbladder
Quote:
Originally Posted by X51
There was an efficiency and pacing to the stories in the 60's and 70's. Modern comics don't have it. Too many static poses and wasted panels.

Too many idiotic storylines. Someone was telling me about Spider-island years back. I think Spider-Gwen and Gwen-Pool get talked about a lot. Since I'm not buying comics and have to listen to these moronic premises, all it does is turn me off from buying modern comics even more. Do they really not know how to write something more intelligent and interesting?


60 and 70's were not efficient at all. Well, 70 a bit more so but they had already gone through a bit of a revolution where the writer and artist realized that the person reading the book wasn't an idiot that had to have everything explained to them. 60's book were often overly verbose and the artist had little opportunity to display their skill unless the story called for splash pages and whatnot.

Now, IMHO, the art often can tell the story so the need to be overly verbose and patronizing has been shown the door.

You also have to understand that the industry has drastically changed. There have been so many other pressures on the industry that have whittled away their readership so they cannot afford to do too many one-off issues. They do serial story arc because that "should" people coming back issue after issue. One and done also loads up the pressure on the writer to make these one offs run together in a comprehensive continuity. Back in the 60's and 70's they didn't give a crap about continuity because they never thought that regular readers would ever question how a character could be doing one thing in one place yet also gallivanting around the world/universe apparently at the same time. Eventually Marvel had to reset their universe continuity with Secret wars and DC had to unify in to one continuity with Crisis.

Both Marvel and DC ultimately have been stuck spinning their wheel for decades though because ultimately their readers don't ever want them to change but they need to if they want to stay in business because other media can easily draw them away. So what do they do go back? that's not an option because the same readers who loved that old style would cry foul. If they do what Marvel has done in the last few years and force the change they get flac (usually by the same guys that complain regardless).

See I have no issue with change and I actually enjoy a ton of moderns but I don't get hung up on change. Change is inevitable. You either adapt with it or you just stall out. But hey comics allow for this. You don't like the new stuff? Great! There's a TON of books that you can (trick yourself into) (re)living the good old days (where there was just as much drek published). It gets a little old when you keep hammering on what others may enjoy. Especially when you don't even read them or sample around the various companies for different reads. This one of the best time in comics because you can find a book that fits your interests. If you just judge the modern industry based on what Marvel and DC does (like most of the collectors do) then I pretty much can say your POV is .... wrong.

I enjoy book from all eras but I am glad as hell they have changed over the years because if they didn't I certainly would not be reading them now.


I'm not going to debate the topic with you because we simply disagree on a lot of comic related topics.

All I'm going to do is post a link to Jim Shooter's blog explaining what Kirby did.

http://storytelling.jimshooter.com/strange-tales/

I happen to like that kind of pacing.
I've seen John Romita Sr. explain on a DVD (maybe a Daredevil DVD extra?) how Kirby accelerated the pacing.

You (or rather anyone else reading this) can watch the video series "How to Draw Comic the Marvel Way" with Stan Lee & John Buscema explaining why Marvel comics were different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5tU2PuRdU8

Regarding your next post, a phone book is necessary if you are telling a complex and intricate story where small details matter and historical accuracy is represented. It's the difference between an artist making your writing look good or making you look like an idiot.

Another excellent read is Toth giving a critique of Steve Rude's art.

http://illdave.com/comicbooks/history/toth-critiques-rude.htm

This isn't really about what you like because it is already represented in the market. In my analogy, you represent the person who is happy with the lemon skittles and there are plenty. I'm talking about what isn't represented in the market. I'm talking about the industry suffering so poorly that they have to charge $5 per comic to recover production costs.

In an overall sense, I qualify your tastes as garbage. That's fine, because it's just my personal opinion and you have your own which is equally polarized. I'm glad you have a selection you like in the market. I really am.

I really don't intend on replying to anymore of your posts, so I got a little more wordy with this reply than I originally intended. I did not write it for you. I wrote it for everyone else.
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Collector Pre_Coder private msg quote post Address this user
@Oxbladder @X51 I am loving this debate. Of course I am omitting the confrontation and absorbing the information.
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Collector KCBatmanFan private msg quote post Address this user
#1-32, #789-800, #1.

Marvel can't count.

https://www.cbr.com/amazing-spider-man-spencer-ottley-marvel-fresh-start/?utm_source=CBR-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&view=list

Why couldn't they just leave the numbering alone. This is the 4th Spider-Man #1 (if you count Superior, which I suppose you should since it's included in their numbering to get up to 800).
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COLLECTOR JLS_Comics private msg quote post Address this user
It's probably one of the titles that will have dual numbering on the cover
Post 59 IP   flag post
Collector JustThatGuy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCBatmanFan
#1-32, #789-800, #1.

Marvel can't count.

https://www.cbr.com/amazing-spider-man-spencer-ottley-marvel-fresh-start/?utm_source=CBR-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&view=list

Why couldn't they just leave the numbering alone. This is the 4th Spider-Man #1 (if you count Superior, which I suppose you should since it's included in their numbering to get up to 800).


Well think of it this way, sometime you get that “I don’t feel so fresh” feeling, so you just have to freshing up yourself.
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Collector KCBatmanFan private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustThatGuy
Well think of it this way, sometime you get that “I don’t feel so fresh” feeling, so you just have to freshing up yourself.


Daughter: "Mom, do you ever feel...not so fresh."

Mom: "Of course, honey. It's nothing to be ashamed of. I just renumber my title and I feel good as new."
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Collector det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user
Guy goes in a lcs.
" Hi. I want to collect Spider-Man. I want 5 #100s, 4 #1s and his best team up."
"Ok, your collecting Spiderman...which Spiderman?"
"You trying to be funny? There's only 1 Spider-Man. Spider-Man!"
"Nah, that's 1 title they never made..... Spider-Man!"

"You want me to take my business somewhere else?"
"So far, you haven't given me any business."
"Ok, forget Spider-Man for now. Give me the new issue of Fantastic Four."
"Who??"
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Collector KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Ya know what I hope... I hope they re-launch Spider-Man movies again and we see yet another Uncle Ben get it....that guy had it coming... never tire of seeing different actors portraying him get killed, over and over and over again!!
I wish they would do the same with Batman - just endless montages of parents getting killed - you know in case anyone left on the planet doesn't know their origin stories.
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Collector det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KatKomics
Ya know what I hope... I hope they re-launch Spider-Man movies again and we see yet another Uncle Ben get it....that guy had it coming... never tire of seeing different actors portraying him get killed, over and over and over again!!
I wish they would do the same with Batman - just endless montages of parents getting killed - you know in case anyone left on the planet doesn't know their origin stories.


And that's why we get to see Krypton exploding over and over and over and over. Now, it's gonna be a "new" tv series that shows in less than 26 weeks what is done in less than a minute on all the Super (man, girl,boy) series.

I wonder if there be dragons in this version like there were in Wiener of Steel?
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195035 64 14
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