Let's Talk Marvel "Fresh Start"5582
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Marvel lost me as a customer of new comics for life in about 2001. I don't care what they do at this point. I'll go see the movies until I'm tired of those too. | ||
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Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by X51 That's around the time I stopped buying new Marvel books as well...aside from the random special projects that a favorite creators I liked worked on. I'll occasionally glance through a new Marvel book at the LCS, but it's mostly undecipherable to me these days. Thank goodness for back issues. |
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 I'll probably wake up constipated.
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Pre_Coder private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by conditionfreak YOU CAN DO IT! |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Logan510 Evidently during that time, they let John Romita Jr. do model sheets for all the characters and used his lousy art as a template for how the characters should look. It was horrid. |
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 past performance is no guarantee of future actions.
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KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by conditionfreak Also resist the variant craze!!! There are - insert profanity of choice here - people bidding up ASM 797 homage variant covers to the same or more than ASM 238 - the cover they are paying homage to. I just don't understand.....I would hands down take the original 238 |
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I'll probably wake up constipated.
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Pre_Coder private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by X51 Horrid is putting it mildly. JR Jr. is nothing more than a mass production penciller. If you take the costumes off the superheros/villains, you would not be able to tell them apart. |
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BrianGreensnips private msg quote post Address this user | |
| So now, I will have completed the Old Old Man Logan. Now I will collect the New Old Man Logan. So nutty. I also hate when they do numbering like for example Invinsible Iron Man #30 then 30.1, 30.2 exc. |
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I'll probably wake up constipated.
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Pre_Coder private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BrianGreensnips Exactly! It's a comic book, not an upgrade on computer software. |
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Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by X51 I like JRJR, so I don't have a problem with that. It was more that I didn't recognize the characters anymore as they were so far removed from the ones I grew up loving. I blame Joe Quesada and Bill Jemas for that more than some characters design templates. |
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cseale0223 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Haven’t bought marvel for two years except for the Legacy one shot which I regret buying. Won’t be come back. I think the art is lacking and the stories are not any good. | ||
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DJC_II private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by KatKomics That's harder than it looks |
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JustABitEvil private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I haven't been following modern books for a while, when I saw they were bringing back Jean Grey I decided to give it a shot. I should have known better. The kindest word I have for Pheonix Ressurection is: lame. Upon a re-read it felt like the Hobbit movies, not enough plot for 5 issues. All that buildup and then total anti-climax, the Pheonix leaves because she asks it to, I almost threw that last issue across the room when I was done. They could have done that whole story in a 56 page one shot and maybe made it good. Not to say it was completely horrible, I liked her goodbye scene with Cyclops but that was about it. X-Men Red shows some promise but I'm willing to bet it holds my interest for less than six months, assuming it doesn't get rebooted twice in that time. I guess what I'm saying is I won't be making mine Marvel. |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Logan510 There were other serious problems at the time. I quit reading during the clone saga a couple of years earlier. I was still buying stuff after that. When I looked back, it was general poor quality that made me drop Marvel. They are like a dog chasing it's tail now. It's an endless circle of events and reboots. |
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I'm going to play devil's advocate, though its a tough crowd to do that in since you all make valid points. However, I think there is some good reading out there in Marvel Moderns. The recent Punisher run was entertaining, and the Thanos series has been on-point. Aside from those...I think they're suffering from title creep. They have an issue that sells based on a supporting character appearance, and all the sudden someone in the office greenlights a series starring a character nobody actually wants to read full time. I think the "fresh start" is a nice way to spin "we're cutting back on all the titles that aren't selling." I'm a lifelong ASM collector, so I'll keep the subscription rolling *and* keep chipping away at the back issues until I have a complete set. You are absolutely correct on the issue of variants though; too many, at too high a price for the "rare" versions (though nothing is truly rare in the age of Ebay, just more expensive). I like certain artists, like Clayton Crain or Brent Schoonover, so I'll buy those variants; but I'm not shelling out $100+ per variant for Dell'Otto or $1000/cover for Bagley/McFarlane variants...though I did snag a Venom #6 McFarlane for a steal.  |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| There was an efficiency and pacing to the stories in the 60's and 70's. Modern comics don't have it. Too many static poses and wasted panels. Too many idiotic storylines. Someone was telling me about Spider-island years back. I think Spider-Gwen and Gwen-Pool get talked about a lot. Since I'm not buying comics and have to listen to these moronic premises, all it does is turn me off from buying modern comics even more. Do they really not know how to write something more intelligent and interesting? |
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BrianGreensnips private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I read the first 2 issues of Old Man Hawkeye and really liked it. I will be adding it to my pull list along with Old Man Logan which I have reading from the beginning. Nothing else is grabbing me though. | ||
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thelastbard private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @X51 The pacing does kill me in a lot of books. I finish issues or a few issues, since I tend to read chunks at a time, and I realize that the same story could have been told a LOT faster. I'm all about letting stories breathe, but if you do so, there needs to be a good reason for it, not pointless dialogue... It needs to move characters forward in some way or secondary plots that are laying the foundation for future storylines or something. That, of course, was the great thing about the 60's through 80's when we had long form storytelling dominating the House of Ideas. A recent example I found was Phoenix Resurrection. I was really bummed, because I read the first and last issue and thought to myself, "I don't feel like I missed anything by not reading the middle issues." What I read wasn't bad by any stretch, and I'm sure the middle issues were good, but I should have felt lost by that jump, not like there was puttering and exposition to get to five issues. When I write, I want my artists to be able to show off what they can do, and I want to be able to let the characters breathe, BUT I'm also a dense writer. If I have 22 pages, I want to cover a lot of ground, and there's an organic need for everything to happen - characters are driving things in a certain direction - nothing is forced or wasted. If it is, it's cut, because I'm usually writing more than I need and have to cut down. I don't know if we'll ever go back to true long form writing in the big two in a way that will make the older generations happy. I mean, to some degree it is in there if we look at, say, Detective Comics, regardless if the storylines are "written for trade", but it will be scrapped at some point... they WILL switch writers. It always happens every couple of years. With their biggest books, we get a couple of years of writers earning their stripes, things start to get good, even great, and seeds are sewn, come to fruition, etc, sometimes writers get up to 50 issues for some sort of payoff - then they cash out and are assigned to another book. The question is how they stacked up.  As I mentioned previously, Bendis had a GREAT run on Ultimate Spider-Man... Honestly, I do think it was an achievement, and very different from his other, high exposition writing.Shutting up now! I have some pages to letter. Oops! |
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 I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
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drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
| How about this for a Marvel fresh start? |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @drchaos I agree. It's the only way to be sure. | ||
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by thelastbard In most cases, modern artists are doing portrait work. I noticed once that a smug poster on another message board always used an avatar with a character poking out their chest. I'd look at it and think "who stands like that." In many cases, the characters aren't doing anything. I don't think that much will change. If the writer has to put more words on paper, it's a pay cut. If they hire an artist who knows how to draw a story efficiently, they'd have to pay more. They are more interested in hiring copycats of whoever is doing well at the time and paying them a little less. The sales are so poor that the publisher is forced to cut corners. It seems to escape everyone's mental grasp that if you improve the quality & integrity of the product, it will build a bigger audience slowly. Bendis' work doesn't interest me. He's been on my radar since Jinx, aka Goldfish, and his other crime stuff. Here's an analogy.. For me, it's like pouring a bag of skittles onto a table. My favorite flavor are the red ones. If someone removes all the red ones, then the orange ones are going to be my favorite. Eventually, if you remove my favorites, I'm going to be stuck with flavors that don't interest me. What I like is not really there anymore. If I post on messageboards, the people criticizing my tastes never understood the subtle differences between red skittles or yellow ones. They are telling me how wonderful the yellow ones are. I'm happy for the people who like the lemon flavored skittles, but don't expect me to forget that I like the strawberry ones. Don't expect me to forget that there is 2/5th's the selection and it costs me 25 times what I was paying when I started buying comics. To be honest, the 2/5ths selection is so diluted from what it used to be, that it's really like paying 200 times what I used to pay when I started. |
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thelastbard private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @X51 I totally get you! A lot of people enjoy things because they're the best of what's available. In other cases, it has been an evolution of the form, good or ill, and we like it or we don't, and it comes down to taste (the strawberry Skittles). Totally fair. On the artist front, I've had to work with a lot of artists who had no experience working in the medium and others who have a good amount of experience, but haven't hit the big leagues yet. You're right, there's a BIG difference. One difference between the larger publishers and my world (well, my world is the world of one, I suppose, ha ha), is that I've taken the time to train a lot of artists in how to work within the "conventions" of the comic book world. How to read a script, layout pages, the angles, etc... I let them have their freedoms, too, but if they came from a world of fine art, I helped guide them. I don't know that larger publishers take the time to do that. The end result is "pretty" art, but static, not dynamic, artwork, and pages that are difficult to letter and have taken too many liberties with the script, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by thelastbard I listened to an artist scoff at Jim Shooter's script because it was too thick like a phone book and it had all these links to photo references. He was proud that he'd ignored elements of the script and drew what he wanted. There are clearly people working in the industry that have no place working in the industry. There's another element about comics in the past that doesn't get discussed as much. The heroes had providence. They were right no matter what. They had obstacles, but their success wasn't random luck. They were a beacon of hope. Why would I want to read about heroes that are a muddled mess every month? Hey Thor died! Isn't that horrible? Buy extra copies that'll be worthless when he comes back as a transgendered raccoon. There's nothing imaginative. Writers come up with the opposite of what people want to stir up emotion. I'm not playing the "follow the carrot on a stick" game. My dollar are therefore lost to the industry as I opt to stick with back issues. I'd much rather see a character grow and evolve to overcome newer, more challenging obstacles. If the hero dies, he's a loser. I don't buy comics to read about "hope" losing. |
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poka private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by thelastbard When are we going to be able to read some of your new stuff? |
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det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Let's see.., Dark Avengers had Norman Osborn conviince the U S that he was a good guy AND the only one strong enough to protect everyone. That and Civil War had the most bang for the time used. Maybe, if we slip Ambush Bug into this universe, and restart everything correctly, we could get Kermit as Mr Fantastic and ...maybe not. Frank Castle as Mr Fantastic? Not impossible. |
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thelastbard private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @X51 I've read posts from artists on Facebook about that very thing... Artists talking about how writers are second fiddle to artists, when, in fact, the intention of comics was always supposed to be a true marriage of the two. A "meaty" script isn't intended to insult an artist, but to help bring them into the world in the creator's mind. In the case of a Jim Shooter, he was the creator in many cases, and the artist just a gun for hire with no right to much beyond "wiggle" in the script. I mean, sometimes when you write a script, you have no clue which artist will draw it and how many references they may need due to skill level, so you need to cover your bases. If you're going in knowing the artist, you can work in a little bit of a different shorthand. Frustrating... Right now in the industry (mainstream), artists are feeling like they are playing second fiddle to writers again like before the celebrity artist era. So, they tell stories of what they do with the scripts, how they ignore things, make miracles out of crap scripts, and SOME artists from the celebrity artist era even chime in and tell their own stories, tooting their own horns, despite being a VERY polarizing artist in their own right. Anywho, I don't touch those discussions on FaceBook except to maintain the "comics should be a marriage of..." and stay out of pissing contests between people feeling shortchanged. I've never had an artist complain about one of my scripts except for someone from the Eastern Block letting me know one was "too complicated", because English was his... third language. We didn't end up working together. @poka Dominatrix: Hellbent in Heels is in March Previews, thankfully! I'm lagging on getting it lettered at the moment, ha ha... Should be finished in the next few days, but 100% of the art is completed. I'm REALLY hoping we get Zipper wrapped up, so we can debut it at SDCC. Because of the sluggish sales on the single issues, the decision was made to pull the plug on singles and go to trade. A bit of a bummer, but what can you do. This time interior art AND cover by Kewber Ball, which I prefer. clickable text  |
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JLS_Comics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I think what's being described above is a phenomenon that crept in to comic books about a decade or two ago and this is decompression. Instead of giving us a beginning, middle and end in one issue (aside from the meta/long game-story being told through the run) there is much filler added to stretch the story to 3,4,5 issues. It bloats the story, impacts the narrative and the pacing but, arguably, it sells much more copies. | ||
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thelastbard private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @JLS_Comics Yeah, good term for it. Even if you know where you're going to end up when the story is finished, if you've "decompressed" to expand the story to five issues, there's a way to do it so it's not obvious, I think. Increase the stakes, throw in the kitchen sink, whatever. Marvel Events have been decompressing their events for years. Let's add an issue because someone wrote more script, ha ha. Did it need to take that many issues? NOOO!!! In fact, when you look back through the issues, you think to yourself, what did they really do in all of those issues? I'm not using the Phoenix example here, but other ones where the main event series ends up being staging for a bunch of offshoots, for example. Posing and posturing in the main with little forward motion, yet people gobble it up. Yaaawwwwwnnnnnn.... |
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Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by X51 60 and 70's were not efficient at all. Well, 70 a bit more so but they had already gone through a bit of a revolution where the writer and artist realized that the person reading the book wasn't an idiot that had to have everything explained to them. 60's book were often overly verbose and the artist had little opportunity to display their skill unless the story called for splash pages and whatnot. Now, IMHO, the art often can tell the story so the need to be overly verbose and patronizing has been shown the door. You also have to understand that the industry has drastically changed. There have been so many other pressures on the industry that have whittled away their readership so they cannot afford to do too many one-off issues. They do serial story arc because that "should" people coming back issue after issue. One and done also loads up the pressure on the writer to make these one offs run together in a comprehensive continuity. Back in the 60's and 70's they didn't give a crap about continuity because they never thought that regular readers would ever question how a character could be doing one thing in one place yet also gallivanting around the world/universe apparently at the same time. Eventually Marvel had to reset their universe continuity with Secret wars and DC had to unify in to one continuity with Crisis. Both Marvel and DC ultimately have been stuck spinning their wheel for decades though because ultimately their readers don't ever want them to change but they need to if they want to stay in business because other media can easily draw them away. So what do they do go back? that's not an option because the same readers who loved that old style would cry foul. If they do what Marvel has done in the last few years and force the change they get flac (usually by the same guys that complain regardless). See I have no issue with change and I actually enjoy a ton of moderns but I don't get hung up on change. Change is inevitable. You either adapt with it or you just stall out. But hey comics allow for this. You don't like the new stuff? Great! There's a TON of books that you can (trick yourself into) (re)living the good old days (where there was just as much drek published). It gets a little old when you keep hammering on what others may enjoy. Especially when you don't even read them or sample around the various companies for different reads. This one of the best time in comics because you can find a book that fits your interests. If you just judge the modern industry based on what Marvel and DC does (like most of the collectors do) then I pretty much can say your POV is .... wrong. I enjoy book from all eras but I am glad as hell they have changed over the years because if they didn't I certainly would not be reading them now. |
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Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by X51 You shouldn't need to write a phone book script for one or even a series of comics. If you cannot get your point across simply and concisely then perhaps you should be writing a novel? Heroes had providence back then because times were simpler and most people didn't question much about the world around them the way they do now. This all changed in the late sixties and early 70's when Marvel and DC started grounding their characters more in the real world. I think they pretty much had to. I doubt that comics would be here now if they kept the heroes having providence. Besides after the Watchmen there was no going back. The idea is being able to relate to a character in some way. Keeping a character having providence is COMPLETELY out of touch with everyday reality. I think Stan Lee showed the world that when he created Spider-man. Outside the suit he was the everyday teen/young adult. Bruce Wayne was/is still a rich dick and Superman is still a good boy. Who can relate to that? |
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thelastbard private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Oxbladder I think those are two different discussions. Scripts don't need to be a novel, but some artists do require more "guidance" than others. I think that is the point. If you're setting a scene, sometimes you need to give more information to do so. In other areas, a simple sentence or two can do the trick for a panel, then just list out the dialogue if there is any. Give and take - more details in some places, and less in others to let the artist shine. Some artists take a certain perverse pride in throwing the rule book out the window and it actually SCREWS the colorist and, worse, the letterer, who has to struggle to figure out where to fit things (if they can). I know first hand, because I've lettered over a thousand pages of comics. It's NUTS when artists throw out the rule book because they think they know better 100% of the time, especially when they don't have the "real" experience to back it up and know when to give and take. On the script itself, does an artist want to read a boring script with NO direction is as good a question as does a reader want to read a boring comic? If you yourself are industry, I'd pose that question to you. If you are in, active, and working, please let me know. If you're not... Keep in mind, too, that we're not talking about plotting, scripting, dialogue - we're just talking about the one stop shop version of an all-inclusive script handed off to an artist to, front-to-back, draw a book, hand off to an inker, ink from, hand off to a colorist, color from, hand off to a letterer, letter from, etc... No Marvel-style script or dissection of responsibilities, but what the majority of the industry does. Nor are we talking about a bible-length Alan Moore comic script. On the other side of things, of course, characters need to be relevant and in tough with reality as much as possible. That's the awesome things about what Marvel was able to key into in the 60's and still tries to do today. The trick is with any book - great writing married with great artwork that keys into the right audience. Oh, there are a few people in the forums here that prefer to not buy new books. I buy a lot of new books. I'm always chasing good stories. I think there are some great writers who I think I can learn from. I respect those, though, who DON'T like new books. It doesn't make them any less a collector. I respect their opinions, even as I may recommend a book or three. They can poke holes in things with the best of them, and they respect our opinions, too. Please be mindful when tossing out, "you're wrong" in their direction. Just sayin'! They DO "chase the dragon," too. Their tastes just differ. We've had the music analogy. If I can find a new music release this week I like and they can't, it doesn't mean they're dated... it just means they haven't found a new artist YET that they like. It doesn't mean they won't. |
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