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Backlash against new CGC slab sellers?534

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Collector 1.08K	1.08K _bc private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by LordRahl Quote: Originally Posted by D84 Quote: Originally Posted by LordRahl Quote: Originally Posted by D84 Quote: Originally Posted by LordRahl Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego Many eBay listings that have "CGC" in the title are also raw books, PGX books, and CBCS books. Also the sheer number of years CGC has been around compared to CBCS is a big factor in name recognition. All these factors make those eBay search results very skewed and not a reliable indicator of anything. Exactly. You are talking about 15+ years worth of books out in the marketplace for CGC and what... about 2 years for CBCS? I'd like to see the numbers of monthly submissions for both, 3 months ago, now and 3 months from now. THAT would be a telling number. Of course we won't be privy to that type of info but it sure would be interesting. And CBCS books selling for less than CGC is not a myth. It is unfortunate reality. That may equalize some over the next year or so but if it equalizes because CGC prices come down and not because CBCS prices catch up, then we all lose. Well, the sellers loose. The buyers get a more stabilized market, which will be good for every one in the long run. Lets face it, prices are increasing at an over-accelerated rate, and the market can't keep this up indefinitely. Will it now? You sure about that? Okay, let me clarify. It is good for all people who love comics. It will not be good for speculators who are just trying to make a quick buck. I don't think you are thinking this through all the way. Ok, let's take a pure collector. Someone who doesn't sell much and doesn't speculate on hot books. This person has been buying at FMV for the last 5 years. He's spent... I don't know... $50K for example. Market tanks because people lose confidence in 3rd party grading and everyone mass stampede's out of the hobby like they did back in the 90's. Now that collectors books are worth $20K. Even if he plans to never sell, that is going to be an off-putting feeling. NO ONE likes losing money, even if it's just on paper. It will only be good for people that are just now getting into the hobby and will be able to buy books on the cheap. That probably isn't that many people. You just described me to a T (up to the market tanking point). As someone who's also into other equities that are based on a "paper" value, you're right, fluctuations do occur and typically cooler heads prevail in the long-term. That's why diversification of investments is always sound advice. In the Pre-Hero Marvel (PHM) world where I dwell, the CBCS selling/closing prices are very competitive to CGC. Again, as you stated, it was not that way a year ago but "the times they are a changin'". _bc
	9 years ago	Post 51 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 20.52K	20.52K DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	If you auction a book starting at a dollar and fail to get FMV it could just as easily be because you failed to get enough interested eyes on it and some lucky Smo got a great deal. If you want a guaranteed FMV, then list it at FMV and let the buyer who's willing to pay come to you.
	9 years ago	Post 52 • IP flag post

Collector 52	52 LordRahl private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego If you auction a book starting at a dollar and fail to get FMV it could just as easily be because you failed to get enough interested eyes on it and some lucky Smo got a great deal. If you want a guaranteed FMV, then list it at FMV and let the buyer who's willing to pay come to you. This is a strategy that some take. I don't like the strategy personally. I can't tell you the number of times that I've auctioned a book and was just scratching my head at the final price. In a "that just went for stupid money" kind of way. You won't get that from BIN pricing as there is no bidding fever, with the exception of truly rare/hard to find books.
	9 years ago	Post 53 • IP flag post

Collector 208	208 Ghost_Town private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by LordRahl Quote: Originally Posted by comeaux Quote: Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids Quote: Originally Posted by Resurrection Let me ask a general question. what would be the ethical responsibility associated with the selling of the new slabs. EX: I sell a book and within 3 weeks it develops waves? Is it still my responsibility to take the book back, or do I send the customer to CGC? In one instance I lose potentially $15.00 in shipping, on a "hot" book I could lose a hundred bucks in the process as the book may no longer be hot? What is everyones thought? It is CGC's responsibility, not the seller of the book. I don't think it's as cut and dry as this, a person selling a book in the new slab is aware that there may be a potential issue as waves may develop over time. As Barton said, doing the right thing has no expiration date. I don't think it's as cut and dry as either your statement or Copper Age's. Sure if it's a prominent dealer like Joe, you'd expect the kind of response that Barton received. What if it's some Joe Shmoe on ebay that just sent in some of his nicer books because he needed money? He might not even know about the problems with the holder. And months later whoever bought it might go back for a refund. If I'm Joe Schmoe, I'd be pretty confused. You're absolutely right about not everybody living up to Joe V's standards. Which is why I wouldn't buy a book in the new holder of any significant value from anyone I don't know and trust. And if it's not obvious, I'm placing the fault for these situations on CGC and the new holder. I understand that seller's are in a weird bind not of their own making. But for people who are aware of the potential issues, I think there's a stand up way to act if problems pop up in these new wave holders.
	9 years ago	Post 54 • IP flag post

Collector 1.54K	1.54K D84 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by LordRahl Quote: Originally Posted by D84 Quote: Originally Posted by LordRahl Quote: Originally Posted by D84 Quote: Originally Posted by LordRahl Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego Many eBay listings that have "CGC" in the title are also raw books, PGX books, and CBCS books. Also the sheer number of years CGC has been around compared to CBCS is a big factor in name recognition. All these factors make those eBay search results very skewed and not a reliable indicator of anything. Exactly. You are talking about 15+ years worth of books out in the marketplace for CGC and what... about 2 years for CBCS? I'd like to see the numbers of monthly submissions for both, 3 months ago, now and 3 months from now. THAT would be a telling number. Of course we won't be privy to that type of info but it sure would be interesting. And CBCS books selling for less than CGC is not a myth. It is unfortunate reality. That may equalize some over the next year or so but if it equalizes because CGC prices come down and not because CBCS prices catch up, then we all lose. Well, the sellers loose. The buyers get a more stabilized market, which will be good for every one in the long run. Lets face it, prices are increasing at an over-accelerated rate, and the market can't keep this up indefinitely. Will it now? You sure about that? Okay, let me clarify. It is good for all people who love comics. It will not be good for speculators who are just trying to make a quick buck. I don't think you are thinking this through all the way. Ok, let's take a pure collector. Someone who doesn't sell much and doesn't speculate on hot books. This person has been buying at FMV for the last 5 years. He's spent... I don't know... $50K for example. Market tanks because people lose confidence in 3rd party grading and everyone mass stampede's out of the hobby like they did back in the 90's. Now that collectors books are worth $20K. Even if he plans to never sell, that is going to be an off-putting feeling. NO ONE likes losing money, even if it's just on paper. It will only be good for people that are just now getting into the hobby and will be able to buy books on the cheap. That probably isn't that many people. No, I took all of the above concepts into account. When you speculate or "invest" there is the chance of it loosing value. That's the nature of the beast. I've paid more than fair market value for a book I wanted and watched the price drop. You know what? I didn't care because I have the book and that's what I wanted.
	9 years ago	Post 55 • IP flag post

Collector 421	421 matterus023 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I really want to buy an all star comics 33 and 41 but can't as I know what is happening to those poor comics as we speak in the new case For now the modern market will easily keep CGC going but perhaps as the word gets out more and more will get into line and realise CGC are taking the piss. Well a man can dream anyways lol The issue is that many amateurs or just those who aren't as invested in comics (whether it be financially or keen hobbyist) may just not know what is going on. This applies with many aspects of comics. When you get into comics you may of fell in to the trap where you bought a comic at say a 9.6 and 2 years down the line think how could I not see this is an 8.0 at best. Or send a comic off to be pressed. Comes back wavier than when it went in but just think hey it has been pressed must be better. Trust me this happens So what I am saying is some wouldn't even consider to look for these issues or know about them. Like I say in time the word should get out enough. Regarding dealers. As long as they mention the problems I'm fine with that. But some have been actively defending, NOT mentioning it at all and actually making out like out of 100 comics none of theirs even have the bad newton rings. This is unacceptable and hope people clue up to these guys and refuse to buy from in the future.
	9 years ago	Post 56 • IP flag post

Collector 421	421 matterus023 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Just gone back and read some other comments. People have asked what you would do if you realise you have some of these issues with your new cases and you're selling them on. Here is my opinion for what it is worth:- If you were fully aware of these issues before you bought them, then you HAVE to mention this when selling. Even if they arrive flat then you should at least give your buyer a heads up to what could happen. If you had no idea when you bought the comics then things become more difficult. It is just a horrible position to be in. But if their is doubt there is no doubt. What I mean is if there is that tingling in your brain that says I should mention it then you must mention it. If you lose out then learn your lesson and move on. Easier said than done I know. If it was a very expensive comic then you have the option to take it out and decide to press if need be, (or if that sits well with you) sell raw and show the CGC label but explain what has happened or send to say CBCS and pray the waves haven't effected it too badly. As soon as you have information to hand that could effect the integrity of the comic you have to pass that on. Lots wont as this is human nature. I mean lots want to slab a comic to increase their margins. But loads are immoral and have worked out that you can over-grade raw and the amateurs will pay top dollar. But a topic for another day I feel Regarding GPA as it has been brought up the whole set up to me doesn't work for these reasons:- 1. They include ALL sales from ebay. Many slaes on ebay are shill bidded. Trust me. Iv'e done the research. So they catalogue fake bids 2. Some people are awful at selling. Bad photos, no description etc so will sell for less. Some are great at selling, great description etc so will sell for more. 3. Some sell and have no idea of price so sell far too cheap. 4. Many bigger dealers sell to their mate on purpose (bin price) for an inflated cost. Creates a false market 5. It stops you from doing your research. Checking GPA kills you looking at many copies and getting better at grading. Plus many people won't buy a 9.8 if the wrap is off centre etc. This is not mentioned in GPA as to why that 9.8 say sold for less 6. Many dealers get 'gift grades'. They use say CGC a lot and a comic which is a 6.0 at best comes back a 7.0. So their 7.0 sells for less say as many know this and won't pay a 7.0 price as they know it is a 6.0 I could go on. People's argument to these points is that it takes an average so any discrepancies are pushed out this way. Not overly true. For the cheaper and less speculative stuff GPA can be a good tool but for speculation stuff, hot comics, GA etc GPA is truly useless. Sorry for blabbing on. Just my opinion on things as well
	9 years ago	Post 57 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Place Buy It Now Or Make An Offer works very well for many of us for many years. The serious interested collector will work some thing out with you on a short stack. Unless it is one of those big auction house 'event' gigs, most all other auctioning is a function of whom ever happens to be looking that day and/or week. Books that "drop" in "value" were never "worth" that much higher price to begin with.
	9 years ago	Post 58 • IP flag post

Collector 1.29K	1.29K Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I have nothing against sellers but I will not purchase any books in new slabs. Of course I may not purchase any CGC slabbed book because I don't know the readily identifiable markers that indicate the new slab.
	9 years ago	Post 59 • IP flag post

I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery. 60.21K	60.21K DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by Oxbladder I have nothing against sellers but I will not purchase any books in new slabs. Of course I may not purchase any CGC slabbed book because I don't know the readily identifiable markers that indicate the new slab. If the page quality is under the now larger number grade, then it is a new holder.
	9 years ago	Post 60 • IP flag post

Collector 1.29K	1.29K Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Thanks. I'll keep that in mind when shopping around.
	9 years ago	Post 61 • IP flag post

Collector 52	52 DWL private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by DrWatson Quote: Originally Posted by Oxbladder I have nothing against sellers but I will not purchase any books in new slabs. Of course I may not purchase any CGC slabbed book because I don't know the readily identifiable markers that indicate the new slab. If the page quality is under the now larger number grade, then it is a new holder. People did not like the new label but there is a silver lining in the change, it makes it easy to spot a new holder. Hence, buyers who wish to do so (like myself) can avoid buying the new case. To be honest, I will still be buying books in the old holder and the even older holder, but not the new case.
	9 years ago	Post 62 • IP flag post

Collector 337	337 DannyBoy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids Quote: Originally Posted by 1Cool This whole thing is driving me crazy. Just did a search on E-Bay and there is 3,825 results for CBCS and 57,559 for CGC. Some of the CGC could be people saying "CGC it" or similar but that is a staggering difference. I know CBCS is much newer so there is a ton less in the marketplace but that 15 times more CGC books have sold then CBCS - how do you overcome those numbers when it comes to selling CBCS books? The disparity between those numbers, and the price disparity as well(especially on moderns, where it is the highest) will lessen over the coming months. To me, the difference in numbers seems appropriate compared to how long each company has been in business. I would also agree that CBCS will be narrowing the gap in the near future. I have nothing against people who want to sell comics in the new CGC holder. I respect your right to do your business the way you see fit. But keep in mind that many customers will exercise their right not to purchase comics in the new CGC slab.
	9 years ago	Post 63 • IP flag post

Collector 1	1 zuulioso private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I was looking at the comic link summer feature auction preview last night and noticed that a ton of the books are in the new case. It makes me wonder what those books will look like in two months when the auction starts and if they will be compelled to rescan if the creep engine has taken affect by then. I feel like they would have no choice because if I received a book from that auction that exhibited waves that did not in the scan I would have to fight the no return policy. On the flip side I wonder if the non-new cases will fair better than usual?
	9 years ago	Post 64 • IP flag post

Collector 28	28 edowens71 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by zuulioso I was looking at the comic link summer feature auction preview last night and noticed that a ton of the books are in the new case. It makes me wonder what those books will look like in two months when the auction starts and if they will be compelled to rescan if the creep engine has taken affect by then. I feel like they would have no choice because if I received a book from that auction that exhibited waves that did not in the scan I would have to fight the no return policy. On the flip side I wonder if the non-new cases will fair better than usual? Another issue is that the waves aren't always apparent in the straight-on scans. Here's a scan and photograph that I took last night within 5 minutes of one another: Scan looks great, right?
	9 years ago	Post 65 • IP flag post

Collector 337	337 DannyBoy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by edowens71 Quote: Originally Posted by zuulioso I was looking at the comic link summer feature auction preview last night and noticed that a ton of the books are in the new case. It makes me wonder what those books will look like in two months when the auction starts and if they will be compelled to rescan if the creep engine has taken affect by then. I feel like they would have no choice because if I received a book from that auction that exhibited waves that did not in the scan I would have to fight the no return policy. On the flip side I wonder if the non-new cases will fair better than usual? Another issue is that the waves aren't always apparent in the straight-on scans. Here's a scan and photograph that I took last night within 5 minutes of one another: Scan looks great, right? That last photo makes me cringe. I hope you were able to crack it out and save the book?
	9 years ago	Post 66 • IP flag post

Collector 28	28 edowens71 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Quote: Originally Posted by DannyBoy That last photo makes me cringe. I hope you were able to crack it out and save the book?
	9 years ago	Post 67 • IP flag post

Collector 316	316 Marc_1 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	I am officially done with CGC. Now that they deleted that thread I have determined they are shady and not caring of the comic book collecting community's concerns. Instead they dismiss it as a minor issue and then delete the thread that showed all the evidence of the the bad case. Seriously, this is upsetting to me. I have a lot of CGC books and I'm quite invested in them. To think this company would shit on their customers just sickens me.
	9 years ago	Post 68 • IP flag post

Collector 826	826 Kinzebac private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by edowens71 Quote: Originally Posted by DannyBoy That last photo makes me cringe. I hope you were able to crack it out and save the book? The difference between in the case and out of the case is really incredible.
	9 years ago	Post 69 • IP flag post

Collector 316	316 Marc_1 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	I have a stack of old OO ECs that are going no where near CGC Cases. Steve is getting them soon.
	9 years ago	Post 70 • IP flag post

Collector 337	337 DannyBoy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by edowens71 Quote: Originally Posted by DannyBoy That last photo makes me cringe. I hope you were able to crack it out and save the book? Awesome! Waves gone! But it leaves me wondering and worrying... If the comic had remained encapsulated for an additional 6 - 12 months, would there be permanent wavy damage?
	9 years ago	Post 71 • IP flag post

Collector 208	208 Ghost_Town private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DannyBoy Quote: Originally Posted by edowens71 Quote: Originally Posted by DannyBoy That last photo makes me cringe. I hope you were able to crack it out and save the book? Awesome! Waves gone! But it leaves me wondering and worrying... If the comic had remained encapsulated for an additional 6 - 12 months, would there be permanent wavy damage? Spine rolls form from improper storage over time. I can't imagine this would be much different.
	9 years ago	Post 72 • IP flag post

Collector 28	28 edowens71 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DannyBoy But it leaves me wondering and worrying... If the comic had remained encapsulated for an additional 6 - 12 months, would there be permanent wavy damage? I suppose it varies by the book, paper stock, pressure dynamics in the specific case, and who knows what else... Here's one that was in the slab less time than that EC, but there's a wave remnant left behind after I deslabbed it ( shoulder shrug emoticon ):
	9 years ago	Post 73 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 20.52K	20.52K DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Doing my own little part to spread the word, I just put my only CGC slab up on eBay and put this at the end of the description: "This is the old CGC case, not the new train wreck CGC case." All proceeds are going towards my first CBCS submission.
	9 years ago	Post 74 • IP flag post

Collector 826	826 Kinzebac private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@DarthLego link?
	9 years ago	Post 75 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 26.95K	26.95K dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Backlash might be a strong word but I do think that significant awareness and continued slabbing in these new cases will have a significant impact on how comics are bought and sold (at least for new Case CGC books) just as the advent of slabbing did. In effect, I can see disagreements between the seller, arguing for a higher price on a book because the label says it's a 9.0 and the buyer thinking it's overpriced because of possible damage from the case. Unfortunately for CGC, this seems awfully familiar to selling raw books so why slab with CGC?
	9 years ago	Post 76 • IP flag post

Collector 11.12K	11.12K MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by dielinfinite Unfortunately for CGC, this seems awfully familiar to selling raw books so why slab with CGC? Good question. Might be for resto check, but then it sounds like CGC's new case will give you reasons TO get restoration.
	9 years ago	Post 77 • IP flag post

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