Most buyers DO NOT CARE about grade 4980

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLBcomics

Back in the late 70s my pre-orders for Byrne Austin X-Men by #114 were 10,000 each. That was just the initial pre-orders.

You've made this claim before, Bob, and I don't quite understand the numbers...maybe you can explain it to me. In X-Men #120, the Statement of Ownership was filed, which said the average number of copies sold for the year which included X-Men #114 was a mere 115,260 copies.

That's for every copy sold in North America, and possible every copy sold in the UK, too (the reporting isn't entirely clear on that point.)

So, if the books averaged 115k copies sold, how did you, a single dealer with some stores in the SF Bay Area, account for nearly 10% of those sales...?

And at a time when the entire Direct Market accounted for less than 10% of total sales?

I'm not familiar with how distribution worked in the late 70's; can you explain how there were "initial pre-orders" at that very early time in the history of the Direct Market?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blb
Used to get CBG overnight air mail each week. Called Joe up, he had 1200 copies, I said sold, bank wire drafted the bucks, he shipped em out the next day UPS. When the UPS man delivered them he was saying the seller had been trying to get the shipment halted and sent back. See, they were retailing at least on the west coast in NM for $10 by then. What I agreed to do with Joe was mail back one 300 case as I did feel a bit guilty. But then, again, that was why some of us paid the "big bucks" to get CBG when the "normal" world would get their copies a week later. Some of us had already vacuum cleaned out the super good deals which were almost literally every week.

Wow...when was this? That's a fascinating piece of history!

7 years ago

past performance is no guarantee of future actions. 31.66K	31.66K KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Ok...getting a bit too much to re-read etc. but I think I'm a bit of both types of consumer and multiple viewpoints are probably correct. I am both a reader and collector. For books I read I generally care about condition and handle the books carefully and as long as there isn't some major flaw I mostly don't look though and pick the best on the rack (my LCS pulls the books for me - I just pick up my bag). I know full well they will likely never be 'worth' anything. Have many titles that can still be picked up for cover or less in my small 7k collection (don't tell the wife it's small...she already thinks it takes up too much space!). For books I 'collect' I care but only to a certain extent. I'm only 43 but that's old enough to be around before slabs and to think that 9.2 is NM and that while 9.8 is nice I personally can not justify paying multiples of the 9.2 price. I am happy to buy a NM raw as advertised and as long as it is 9.0 or higher I'm ok with that. My problem with the 9.8's or 9.6's of 'rare' slabbed books are that there are people like me who have these books (so not really rare - can't be if even I have it - as some people advertise) and they are not graded - since I currently do not intend to sell I slab very few each year (5 or less). What happens when I and others slab our books? That prior 9.8 will eventually, potentially become common place and drive the price down? Now I do like 9.8's mainly because they currently are devaluing the 9.2 to 9.6 books so that I can affordably pick them up!!
	7 years ago	Post 102 • IP flag post

Collector 8.11K	8.11K Drogio private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Quote: Originally Posted by KatKomics (don't tell the wife it's small...she already thinks it takes up too much space!) And we have our latest member quote to be taken out of context...
	7 years ago	Post 103 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	DocBrown, The numbers I cite are what I know to be my own truth about what i was doing in the comics world pre 1986. I had X Brynes in such a depth I had little true competition. Back then I called it turning the faucet off and on. Making a book scarce for a while amongst my 300 or so big buyer speculator accts of which only some had actual walk in stores. It was a different world then than now. What ever shows up in those Statements of Circ are to be taken not so literally. Post Batman TV show craze glut 1966-68 coming in to 1969 the concept of "honor" system affidavit return fraud kicked in for years up in to the mid 70s as cover prices soared 12 15 20 25 30 35 50 75 $1 in quick succession by the time we get to the 80s. Stuff was being sold for cash out the back loading docks at many of the then 900 ID companies then in that near monopoly periodical distribution business which no longer exists in such a returnable structure. I cover much of this in my Secret Origins of the Direct Market in 25,000+ words printed in Comic Book Artist #6 Fall 1999 and #7 Feb 2000 mag edited by Jon B Cooke published by TwoMorrows.com where one can score the PDF downloadable issues for a few dollars each. My friend Neal Adams informed me his self esteem in comics from that era was restored by those two articles. His X-men, GL/GA were in reality most excellent sellers - it just that the NYC Code publishers were not seeing the real sales/.
	7 years ago	Post 104 • IP flag post

past performance is no guarantee of future actions. 31.66K	31.66K KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by Drogio Quote: Originally Posted by KatKomics (don't tell the wife it's small...she already thinks it takes up too much space!) And we have our latest member quote to be taken out of context... Hey.....leave my member alone!!!
	7 years ago	Post 105 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	re 10,000 each Byrne X-men from #114 thru 143, yup. And those type numbers stayed up there for some years. I had em when most every other west coast dealer was out of most numbers. There was an extreme Byrne X craze there for a while which waned once he left to work on other titles. After he left X my own interest in his work waned as he began to climb the Miller DD train for a couple years. Dec 1981 I hosted Frank at his very first ever in-store signing the week end right before Christmas that year. Over 4000 crazed Miller fans came thru. All the advertising I did was in-house flyers handed out as well as mailed a flyer to every Bay Area comic book store. Half those guys closed up and came got in line. I tried to hustle them thru so they could get back to their stores as it was the last Saturday before Xmas day. Limit was five (free) sigs per person. Strict it was then. I even published a special Frank Miller print he signed and numbered he calls Lily Marlaine (based on a famous WWOne song but set 20 years later heavily influenced as he was by Eisner Spirit at the time. He marveled at my 580 different issues or so of the 618 weekly Spirit sections. He also was turned on by the Lone Wolf and Cub series I was importing from Japan. Months later First Comics began english translations with the first dozen covers drawn for American audience by Frank. And I also pre-ordered bought approx 7% of the initial first printing of TMNT #1 from Kevin and Peter. 300 of some 2000 copies printed. Pushing the alternative stuff also was always a main stay. I bought and sold a LOT of comics back in the day. Make of it what one will. Now just an old dinosaur....
	7 years ago	Post 106 • IP flag post

Collector 1.01K	1.01K Homer private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics Stuff was being sold for cash out the back loading docks at many of the then 900 ID companies then in that near monopoly periodical distribution business which no longer exists in such a returnable structure. Were you buying any of these books that were being sold for cash, would you consider this theft on some level.
	7 years ago	Post 107 • IP flag post

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLBcomics
DocB,

Your technique of taking a person's post and making quotes within quotes within quotes may work wonderful for you - and others here. Me, this old dinosaur begins seeing same like one looks "inside" an infinity comic book cover.

It's done that way because it's easier to follow each point, addressed one by one, instead of having a gigantic chunk that needs to be scanned every time someone makes a counterpoint, to find the original point.

It's the same reason why paragraph breaks exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blb
AmWay marketing techniques is how others outside the thin sliver of the slab world which is yet just another microcosm of the wide world of comics. Those who go to the shows see some booth with semi acres of boxes of slabs - which is what led to AmWay comparison.

The comparison isn't apt. AmWay products were never intended to be bought or sold as collectibles. Nearly the entire purpose of slabbing is because they are collectibles.

No one doubts that some dealers end up with a lot of overstock slabs they don't want. But that's where the comparison ends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blb
Tulip Mania is simply a slice of real life history. There are many other examples thru the centuries.

TM lasted a while then it simply clogged up as greater fools to pay even more were getting harder to find. The original customer base simply begins to die off after a few decades. We are already in that slow motion phase.

As I explained above, tulip mania wasn't about tulips, but rather, speculation. The actual "mania" really only lasted for about a year. The demand for actual tulips that people actually wanted to have didn't disappear.

For a slice of "real life history" to be a valid comparison, it needs to bear at least some resemblance to the thing to which it is being compared. Slabs aren't tulips. And while the comics market stays, the slabbed market will stay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blb
So-called "whales" are paying the super big bucks for select few titles & numbers based on what their "wealth manager experts" are telling them to invest in. Certain titles will maintain their "worth" yet turn over much more slowly trading primarily amongst a select few who choose to believe what the kool-aide dispenser tells them to.

It is the vast majority of lesser titles which are "certified" being 9.8 types which slow down to a crawl then go off to hide die in storage as not every thing that high a cert number are worth ten times the lowly POS 9.2 NM-.

Doubtful. The reason why 9.8s sell for the premiums they do is because people know they're in superior condition, and they want them in that condition. They are the highest grade one can functionally collect, and it is a point of pride...and shrewd marketing...to own examples.

It's not the slab that is worth anything...it's the comic inside.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blb
This aspect is already readily visible all over where I look.

re micro trimming and responses you made seems to me you are micro-trimming on the analysis presented. Micro-trimming is as common as verified voter fraud. Such a tiny percent to be negligible

Again: not relevant. You keep changing the parameters of your argument; "moving the goalposts." You say "anyone can detect restoration, you just need a black light!" and when it's pointed out that that won't detect trimming, you change the argument to "well, trimming's not restoration, and anyways, anyone can detect that with a ruler and eyes", and when it's pointed out that trimming is called restoration by the industry as a whole, whether you or I think so or not, and that a ruler and eyes won't detect micro-trimming, you change the argument again to "well, micro-trimming is so rare, it doesn't matter."

In other words: pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

In fact, even if only a single book was micro-trimmed, it proves the point that, no, restoration IS NOT so easy for ANYONE to detect, and that therefore the restoration check service that CGC and CBCS provide is a service that has value, which was the original point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blb
If I were in the market and had the bucks to buy that VFNM Detective 27 sold at Heritage a while ago i would be pulling out the electron microscope to ascertain all sorts of nuances in the paper.

But of course bigger buck books can possibly trigger trim fraud like what began happening at Mastronet out of Chicago. That CEO guy went to Fed Prison last year June 2016 for five years.

I am not in to trim scenarios as I view cutting away on comics as "destruction" - either way you wish to continue nano-slice parsing my words, the purple kiss of death is attached there-to when detected.

I'm not nano-slicing or parsing your words. I'm taking you at your word, and asking questions where the facts don't seem to line up for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blb
Then again not all comic books come out of the binding trim sequence at the printing plant all the exact same size. I have accumulated some pretty fun manufacturing defect comics over the decades. I collect same for the comics business research I have conducted for decades. I should find that box and scan some examples gleaned out of the few million comics I have bought & sold earlier on.

I even have a few dozen Pop Hollinger copies which are a delight to try to figure out how he was working his taping folding machine.

Much of the rest of what you compiled in that longish "quote" machine post has pretty much been covered.

But not answered, which is why I ask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blb
Again, I will state, take it or not, when CGC-centrics maliciously attacked eBay store with orchestrated Intent to Disrupt, and being semi-disabled the past decade etc, when one's cash flow is disrupted like that, becomes a mite difficult to keep up balance of payments.

I'm not sure, but maybe you could explain to me what "Intent to Disrupt" on your eBay account has to do with you writing hot checks to various others for comics...? And then not responding to the parties to whom you wrote those checks, over a period of several years...? Did the people who you say made these "intent to disrupt" attacks also hack your bank account and remove the funds needed to cover those checks...?

And, I don't really understand how "Intent to Disrupt" attacks hinder you as a seller. From my understanding...and please correct me if I'm wrong...but Intent to Disrupt is what someone gets caught doing to others...and doesn't affect a seller's account directly.

I mean, a few years ago (2/13), some doofus in the UK didn't like my prices, so she made a fake account, and "bought" all of my listings at once. Classic "Intent to Disrupt." I was pretty frosted, but the only thing I could do was limit new accounts from multiple purchases, and relist. It didn't interrupt my sales for months...only a few hours.

Here's the eBay policy page on that:

https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/unwelcome-buying.html

7 years ago

COLLECTOR 11.29K	11.29K conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	My two cents (not that anyone asked). Y'all be nutz.
	7 years ago	Post 109 • IP flag post

Collector 490	490 TommyJasmin private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by X51 You lost me Doc. I'm long-winded... but sheesh. Add this musical interlude to your next book. That is such a great auto-tune vid. I've forwarded that way too many times. +1
	7 years ago	Post 110 • IP flag post

Collector 2.96K	2.96K BabaLament private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	This is the part of the business that I don't fully understand. Maybe its because it was "before my time," things don't work that way anymore, or that I'm starting (very) small. I started a small online-only outfit, only doing back issues by Facebook shop, mostly so I can learn-as-I-go the paperwork & recordkeeping inherent to running a small business without going into debt. I'm nowhere near ready to open a retail LCS, so the ins & outs of dealing w/ Diamond & other distributors is, at this point, a far-off nightmare. The intricacies of restoration, counterfeit copies, and the minutia of grading are things I need to learn, in addition to proper pricing, learning print run numbers, etc. From the gist of what you've been arguing in this thread, I'm going from "cautious" to "terrified."
	7 years ago	Post 111 • IP flag post

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLBcomics
DocBrown, The numbers I cite are what I know to be my own truth about what i was doing in the comics world pre 1986. I had X Brynes in such a depth I had little true competition. Back then I called it turning the faucet off and on. Making a book scarce for a while amongst my 300 or so big buyer speculator accts of which only some had actual walk in stores. It was a different world then than now.

Oh, no doubt, but the numbers don't seem to add up, and I'm a numbers guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blb
What ever shows up in those Statements of Circ are to be taken not so literally. Post Batman TV show craze glut 1966-68 coming in to 1969 the concept of "honor" system affidavit return fraud kicked in for years up in to the mid 70s as cover prices soared 12 15 20 25 30 35 50 75 $1 in quick succession by the time we get to the 80s.

Really...?

Couple of things:

1. The statement of ownership is a document filed with the federal gov't.

As such, it's not something that someone really wants to "fudge" too much on.

Here's an example:

Note the last paragraph, which talks about potential civil and criminal penalties.

2. The avg. print run for X-Men that year, as printed in that issue, was 282K. Sales, as reported on the SOO, was 115K. That's a sell-through of about 40%, which was quite common throughout comics and broader magazine sales of the era.

Now...granted, affidavit fraud was pretty rampant. No doubt. And publishers were having much fewer sales reported than was actually taking place.

But that was on the newsstand market.

And you were buying through the Direct market, because you got a substantially higher discount, so affidavit returns didn't even apply to you.

And if Direct market sales in 1979 only accounted for 6% of Marvel's total sales...per Jim Shooter...then even if the numbers were off by a lot...say, 50,000 copies more were actually sold than reported...none of which had to do with you...that still means that 10,000 copies would have accounted for more copies than the entire Direct market received...for a book that, in 1978 when X-Men #114 was printed...you would have ordered this around April or May of that year...was not an exceptionally hot title.

Remember: the price of X-Men #94 in the 1978 OPG was only 60 cents. X-Men didn't start their long, slow climb to superstardom until that summer, and then it took a few years.

So, if X-Men wasn't a big seller...and even if sales were under-reported...in 1978, in the fledgling Direct market, that means your 10,000 copies would account for the entire Direct market allotment, and then some.

Are you sure you were ordering 10,000 copies...? Maybe it was 1,000, and you accidentally moved the comma.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blb
Stuff was being sold for cash out the back loading docks at many of the then 900 ID companies then in that near monopoly periodical distribution business which no longer exists in such a returnable structure.

Granted, but that didn't apply to you, because you were buying through the Direct market, for the discounts. Since you were hoarding the books in anticipation of increases in price, you wouldn't have been buying 10,000 copies through the much costlier newsstand system...right?

7 years ago

Collector 1.01K	1.01K Homer private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics DocB, But not answered, which is why I ask. Quote: Originally Posted by blb Again, I will state, take it or not, when CGC-centrics maliciously attacked eBay store with orchestrated Intent to Disrupt, and being semi-disabled the past decade etc, when one's cash flow is disrupted like that, becomes a mite difficult to keep up balance of payments. I'm not sure, but maybe you could explain to me what "Intent to Disrupt" on your eBay account has to do with you writing hot checks to various others for comics...? And then not responding to the parties to whom you wrote those checks, over a period of several years...? Did the people who you say made these "intent to disrupt" attacks also hack your bank account and remove the funds needed to cover those checks...? And, I don't really understand how "Intent to Disrupt" attacks hinder you as a seller. From my understanding...and please correct me if I'm wrong...but Intent to Disrupt is what someone gets caught doing to others...and doesn't affect a seller's account directly. I mean, a few years ago (2/13), some doofus in the UK didn't like my prices, so she made a fake account, and "bought" all of my listings at once. Classic "Intent to Disrupt." I was pretty frosted, but the only thing I could do was limit new accounts from multiple purchases, and relist. It didn't interrupt my sales for months...only a few hours. Here's the eBay policy page on that: https://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/unwelcome-buying.html None of this makes sense BLB, if you fell on hard times and couldn't pay back the dealers who you wrote the hot checks to. A rational business decision would of been to return their phone call to explain your financial hardship situation. Then return the comics that you were unable to pay for. Since your financial claim is you were unable to sell the books due to your Ebay account being shut down, the books should of still been in your inventory. On the flip side you did already sell the books and they were not available to be returned. In that case your running a rob Peter to pay Paul business model and you backed yourself into a corner all on your own.
	7 years ago	Post 113 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by KatKomics My problem with the 9.8's or 9.6's of 'rare' slabbed books are that there are people like me who have these books (so not really rare - can't be if even I have it - as some people advertise) and they are not graded - since I currently do not intend to sell I slab very few each year (5 or less). What happens when I and others slab our books? That prior 9.8 will eventually, potentially become common place and drive the price down? Now I do like 9.8's mainly because they currently are devaluing the 9.2 to 9.6 books so that I can affordably pick them up!! Depends entirely on demand. New Mutants #98 has 2,885 9.8s on the census...but the book still sells for about $800 as a 9.8. That's phenomenal. The demand is utterly insatiable. The 9.8 river for that book has slowed to a steady small stream. The census isn't going to double and double again and again, like it did from 2008-2013. But there are only 71 copies of New Mutants #97 on the census. It's worth nothing. There are just as many, if not more, New Mutants 97s out there in 9.8 potential as 98s, because it waa heavily ordered last part of X-Tinction Agenda. But nobody wants it currently. There's not yet been a case where a book was popular AND common in 9.8, where the price was driven down because a lot of new copies came to market. That was only true for census rarities. When there were only 12 copies on the census, Harbinger #1 was a $2500 book. Now, however, the price between copies #50 and the current #262 has remained relatively consistent...wide range, but no "crash", which one might have predicted 7 years ago for this book. In fact, this year, the book is back up in price, on average, even though there are more copies on the census than ever. It's a pretty interesting thing to analyze.
	7 years ago	Post 114 • IP flag post

Collector 490	490 TommyJasmin private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 6
	Hoo-wee Doc, looks like I got under your skin with the SHOUTING COMMENT! :-) Say what you want Doc, caps is shouting. If you want emphasis, please refer to the "Bold" link at the upper left of the input box when you are typing. Please, my ears are bleeding. Example. Stay with me Doc: SHOUTING! PLEASE DON'T DO THIS DOC MY EARS ARE BLEEDING! -> emphasis <- This is ok Doc, we all get it when you emphasize. Since you wrote a book here, I just don't think I can keep embedding further quotes and get any sleep tonight, so I'll try and hit your main points here: 1. I can see you're really having some fun with this thread, cool, I love it! You are wordsmithing and putting Grammarly and Jack London to shame here. +1 2. This is directed to the viewers at large (who we know can't be trusted in general since they are upvoting me more than you, but I'm with you, polling is inherently flawed in this country). ANYWAY, (like that?) I want to point out to all readers who wander across this, I do not, across the board, argue against Doc on his posts. In fact, for his "Dispelling the myth of the Incentive Variant" thread, I was actually one of his staunchest supporters. He even praised me at some point, but thought I was someone else, since he referred to me by some handle I did not recognize. 3. No one can argue by themselves. Wrong Doc. Come to my house sometime and watch my wife in action when I've pissed her off. Sorry, I can personally vouch for this one. 4. This one is important for the part of the thread you care about Doc. Doc says "The fact that many, many comics are published today which have zero "collectible" value proves the point: the people buying these, for the most part, aren't collectors; they're readers". Doc, Doc... you and I both know, too many of these poor saps come home, bag and board this stuff, and truly believe it will put their kids through college. 5. Did I mention I love how much fun you are having with this one? 6. Back to your shouting sensitivity. Did you really think I was going to click on a link with some scary lady with mouth wide open and some all caps words in 96 point Futura? Absolutely not! I pity the fool clicks that link. (please don't correct me on the font type Doc, please, it's late). 7. Jeez Doc, I am typing as fast as I can, ok, I accidentally wrote "you're" (contraction you are) instead of your. Cut me a little slack. You are clearly grammatically superior to most, if not all, forum lurkers here. You politely asked for pedanticity forgiveness though, and I hearby grant it :-) (maybe inventing new words on the way). 8. Yeah, I brought some snark, but you dish it back pretty cleverly. kudos. I love the bit where you say "I'm too lazy..." then drop in a Venn diagram. That rocked Doc. 9. Yeah yeah, I saw the "hear" not "here" typo immediately after I posted, and thought "should I edit that, or let Doc have some fun with it?" Thanks for not letting me down Doc! 10. Man, we could go on all night hey? This is kinda fun (kinda, but I could list 1,000 things I'd rather be doing Doc). 11. Ok, better try to make sure I hit all your touchy points, lest I suffer a single post that spans pages! 12. Gimme a minute to scan your tomb. Wait! tome, not tomb! Careful Tommy Doc would not let that one slide for sure. Ok, you came back to the "why can't I say this?" thing twice, so that seems important to you. Same answer though - seems pointless to make a thread saying "let's make a blanket statement about this group of people, but for sake of argument, we'll leave out the people it most applies to" (collectors of graded books). 13. Closing irony: I pretty much agree with Doc's thread, it's just I quibbled a bit over the term "most". In other words, I pretty much agree with Doc's point, I just thing the percentage of collectors (sorry, buyers, not collectors - see Venn diagram) is likely not as high as Doc claims (which, apparently is 50.1% minimum). Now come on gang, please be fair on the upvotes for Doc (~15 K posts! he'c clearly the expert!) vs. little old me at a pittance of a little over 100!
	7 years ago	Post 115 • IP flag post

Collector 490	490 TommyJasmin private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics DocB, Your technique of taking a person's post and making quotes within quotes within quotes may work wonderful for you - and others here. Me, this old dinosaur begins seeing same like one looks "inside" an infinity comic book cover. It's done that way because it's easier to follow each point, addressed one by one, instead of having a gigantic chunk that needs to be scanned every time someone makes a counterpoint, to find the original point. It's the same reason why paragraph breaks exist. Quote: Originally Posted by blb AmWay marketing techniques is how others outside the thin sliver of the slab world which is yet just another microcosm of the wide world of comics. Those who go to the shows see some booth with semi acres of boxes of slabs - which is what led to AmWay comparison. The comparison isn't apt. AmWay products were never intended to be bought or sold as collectibles. Nearly the entire purpose of slabbing is because they are collectibles. No one doubts that some dealers end up with a lot of overstock slabs they don't want. But that's where the comparison ends. Quote: Originally Posted by blb Tulip Mania is simply a slice of real life history. There are many other examples thru the centuries. TM lasted a while then it simply clogged up as greater fools to pay even more were getting harder to find. The original customer base simply begins to die off after a few decades. We are already in that slow motion phase. As I explained above, tulip mania wasn't about tulips, but rather, speculation. The actual "mania" really only lasted for about a year. The demand for actual tulips that people actually wanted to have didn't disappear. For a slice of "real life history" to be a valid comparison, it needs to bear at least some resemblance to the thing to which it is being compared. Slabs aren't tulips. And while the comics market stays, the slabbed market will stay. Quote: Originally Posted by blb So-called "whales" are paying the super big bucks for select few titles & numbers based on what their "wealth manager experts" are telling them to invest in. Certain titles will maintain their "worth" yet turn over much more slowly trading primarily amongst a select few who choose to believe what the kool-aide dispenser tells them to. It is the vast majority of lesser titles which are "certified" being 9.8 types which slow down to a crawl then go off to hide die in storage as not every thing that high a cert number are worth ten times the lowly POS 9.2 NM-. Doubtful. The reason why 9.8s sell for the premiums they do is because people know they're in superior condition, and they want them in that condition. They are the highest grade one can functionally collect, and it is a point of pride...and shrewd marketing...to own examples. It's not the slab that is worth anything...it's the comic inside. Doc and Bob - 9.8s generally follow the same pattern, you both know this. See attached pic (randomly, really) chosen from my site Nostomania, representing 9.8 sales over time for UXM 142. If you have to be one of the first to buy the first 9.8's of any given book to hit the market, you are overpaying. Just sit tight and as the census goes up, the price will drop significantly. Ok, not randomly - I chose a book that, I assumed had some initial 98 frenzy. Point only applies to books with 9.8 demand of course.
	7 years ago	Post 116 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by TommyJasmin Hoo-wee Doc, looks like I got under your skin with the SHOUTING COMMENT! :-) Say what you want Doc, caps is shouting. If you want emphasis, please refer to the "Bold" link at the upper left of the input box when you are typing. Please, my ears are bleeding. Example. Stay with me Doc: SHOUTING! PLEASE DON'T DO THIS DOC MY EARS ARE BLEEDING! -> emphasis <- This is ok Doc, we all get it when you emphasize. I'll respond to the rest of this when I have time and desire. You've been making subtly, and now openly, snide and snarky comments. Are you interested in having a discussion, or just winning a snark battle? Because I can be as snarky as anyone, but that will lead to locks and suspensions, which I'd rather not. If you are reveling at thinking you "got under my skin", then you're not interested in a genuine conversation, but a snark battle. You are hardly the first person to complain about "caps-as-emphasis." To the above: you can emphasize the way you wish, and I will emphasize the way I wish. When I think italics are appropriate, I use them. When I think bold is appropriate, I'll use it. When I think caps are appropriate, I'll use them. I wouldn't disrespect someone by dictating to them my style preferences; why do you...? If the occasional capitalized word is offensive to you, the answer is to not interact with those who do it. But one question: who is the "we" you're referring to? Unless there are multiple personalities in your head, you only speak for you. There wasn't an election for board spokesman, so invoking "we" to bolster your point is a poor debate tactic.
	7 years ago	Post 117 • IP flag post

Collector 490	490 TommyJasmin private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by TommyJasmin Hoo-wee Doc, looks like I got under your skin with the SHOUTING COMMENT! :-) Say what you want Doc, caps is shouting. If you want emphasis, please refer to the "Bold" link at the upper left of the input box when you are typing. Please, my ears are bleeding. Example. Stay with me Doc: SHOUTING! PLEASE DON'T DO THIS DOC MY EARS ARE BLEEDING! -> emphasis <- This is ok Doc, we all get it when you emphasize. I'll respond to the rest of this when I have time and desire. You've been making subtly, and now openly, snide and snarky comments. Are you interested in having a discussion, or just winning a snark battle? Because I can be as snarky as anyone, but that will lead to locks and suspensions, which I'd rather not. If you are reveling at thinking you "got under my skin", then you're not interested in a genuine conversation, but a snark battle. You are hardly the first person to complain about "caps-as-emphasis." To the above: you can emphasize the way you wish, and I will emphasize the way I wish. When I think italics are appropriate, I use them. When I think bold is appropriate, I'll use it. When I think caps are appropriate, I'll use them. I wouldn't disrespect someone by dictating to them my style preferences; why do you...? If the occasional capitalized word is offensive to you, the answer is to not interact with those who do it. But one question: who is the "we" you're referring to? Unless there are multiple personalities in your head, you only speak for you. There wasn't an election for board spokesman, so invoking "we" to bolster your point is a poor debate tactic. Doc, I've been working in tech since WAY before the Internet was born. The consensus among my peers is caps is shouting. Unless you are among the few who take the view "hhmm... almost all scientists say global warming is a thing, that sure seems suspicious" then you should accept the view of the majority. Caps is shouting and just own one for once Doc. Maybe even change a behavior? It's ok, I do it all the time. Growth is good. I see I just broke 200! Not bad for staying up past my bedtime. Wish I could engage further. I still suspect you are having fun. And yeah, I do think I got under your skin a little. Can't prove it of course, it happens, no biggie, all is forgiven, I'm with you the Incentive Variant is... ok a myth is extreme, but exaggerated for sure. Peace out Doc - I got a normal 9-5 job, Nostomania is just my side project to ideally provide useful tools to collectors, level the playing field, and promote truth in a hobby that unfortunately is tainted with deceit (sometime I will tell some real stories, as I'm sure you have).
	7 years ago	Post 118 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 11.29K	11.29K conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Which one are you? Two shoe salesmen go to a third world country. One of the shoe salesmen calls his wife and tells her "Honey I'm coming home. No one here wears shoes." The other shoe salesmen calls his wife and tells her, "Honey, I'm going to be here for a very long time. The whole country needs shoes." So, which one are you?
	7 years ago	Post 119 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by conditionfreak Which one are you? Two shoe salesmen go to a third world country. One of the shoe salesmen calls his wife and tells her "Honey I'm coming home. No one here wears shoes." The other shoe salesmen calls his wife and tells her, "Honey, I'm going to be here for a very long time. The whole country needs shoes." So, which one are you? That should be its own topic.
	7 years ago	Post 120 • IP flag post

I'll probably wake up constipated. 20.1K	20.1K Pre_Coder private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 5
	"Most buyers DO NOT CARE about grade" I've still yet to read in this thread the substantiation of this claim.
	7 years ago	Post 121 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Before Best of Two World's central warehouse flooding mid feb 1986 we had grown it in to being in the top ten of comics dealerships in the country. I definitely had a control faucet on much of the flow in the Bay Area. Either believe it or not, matters zilch to me. Truly, I could care less. Affidavit return fraud was most hot & heavy late 60s thru mid 70s via the 900 or so ID gigs in the USA. Those who ask questions on this subject conflate differing time line zones mixing them all up. The late 60s are not the early 70s. Early 70s are not the mid 70s. The late 70s are not the mid 70s either. Marvel did not start supporting the DM until 1980. The fraud was being perped by the ID workers themselves. Pocketing the cash spent by those seeking large lots of certain comics perceived by others to be "hot" sellers hopefully going up in price. Reliance on the ID distributors extended in to the 80s. Forty years ago in the late 70s there was still a lot of ID reliance. If one has to ask about how hot Byrne X stuff was back then one still has a LOT of home work on how this biz evolved. Explaining here seems to be spinning wheels. Best I can offer is download Comic Book Artist 6 and 7 from John Morrow. Set you back 3.95 per ish. 25,000 words of research presented there. Might make for a semi long posting here. http://twomorrows.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=98_56 Re eBay Intent to Disrupt attacks tis a very real cyber war attack on a store which freezes the store up. Being 95% reliant on said outlet being disabled makes for an interesting scenario. When constantly repeated can have devastating consequences. Both short and long term. I fail to see what is so difficult to comprehend.
	7 years ago	Post 122 • IP flag post

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyJasmin

2. This is directed to the viewers at large (who we know can't be trusted in general since they are upvoting me more than you, but I'm with you, polling is inherently flawed in this country).

I never said, nor implied, anything of the sort. My comment was about the "like" system on this board, and that system alone. Getting "likes" doesn't make your points more (or less) valid, as you suggested in a previous post. That is the "appeal to popularity" fallacy. There are plenty of people here who don't give two blind squats about the content of a post, and will "like" something solely because it is critical of someone they don't like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
ANYWAY, (like that?) I want to point out to all readers who wander across this, I do not, across the board, argue against Doc on his posts. In fact, for his "Dispelling the myth of the Incentive Variant" thread, I was actually one of his staunchest supporters. He even praised me at some point, but thought I was someone else, since he referred to me by some handle I did not recognize.

Would you mind pointing to the specific post in question? Each post is numbered, so it's relatively easy to point to once it's found.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
3. No one can argue by themselves. Wrong Doc. Come to my house sometime and
watch my wife in action when I've pissed her off. Sorry, I can personally vouch for this one.

This is just insincere nonsense, and not even worthy of even this response. Moving on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
4. This one is important for the part of the thread you care about Doc.
Doc says "The fact that many, many comics are published today which have zero "collectible" value proves the point: the people buying these, for the most part, aren't collectors; they're readers".
Doc, Doc... you and I both know, too many of these poor saps come home, bag and board this stuff, and truly believe it will put their kids through college.

Not in dispute, and not relevant to this discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
5. Did I mention I love how much fun you are having with this one?

Not relevant. Comments about people personally have no business in these kinds of discussions, whether they are positive or negative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
6. Back to your shouting sensitivity. Did you really think I was going to click on a link with
some scary lady with mouth wide open and some all caps words in 96 point Futura? Absolutely not! I pity the fool clicks that link. (please don't correct me on the font type Doc, please, it's late).

More insincere nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
7. Jeez Doc, I am typing as fast as I can, ok, I accidentally wrote "you're" (contraction you are) instead of your. Cut me a little slack. You are clearly grammatically superior to most, if not all, forum lurkers here. You politely asked for pedanticity forgiveness though, and I hearby grant it :-) (maybe inventing new words on the way).

That's very kind of you. As I stated before, trying to correct the tidal wave of poor grammer, spelling, syntax, and punctuation on the internet is impossible. However, since you so generously, if inaccurately, pedantically attempted to call me out for "not making sense", I thought it only fair to respond in kind. That said, how we communicate is a reflection on how much we respect (or not) the people with whom we are communicating, and that includes following the fairly straightforward rules of the English language (as applicable.) It is a mark of respect to write properly, and to look for mistakes and edit them where necessary.

Many people won't agree with that, and those are the ones who do not respect the people with whom they are trying to communicate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
8. Yeah, I brought some snark, but you dish it back pretty cleverly. kudos. I love the bit where you say "I'm too lazy..." then drop in a Venn diagram. That rocked Doc.

I respond to the level of snark initiated. I do not initiate the snark in a discussion, because letting your emotions get the better of you shows a lack of self control, which includes expressions of annoyance and frustration. Once the snark begins, any serious discussion from that point on is not going to happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
9. Yeah yeah, I saw the "hear" not "here" typo immediately after I posted, and thought "should I edit that, or let Doc have some fun with it?" Thanks for not letting me down Doc!

You're most welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
10. Man, we could go on all night hey? This is kinda fun (kinda, but I could list 1,000 things I'd rather be doing Doc).

The question is not what they are, but why aren't you doing any of them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
11. Ok, better try to make sure I hit all your touchy points, lest I suffer a single post that spans
pages!

Again, personal commentary doesn't have any place in these discussions. But I do appreciate that, as you have resorted to ad homimem, you have more effectively conceded the point than any statement could.

For that, I thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
12. Gimme a minute to scan your tomb. Wait! tome, not tomb! Careful Tommy Doc would not let that one slide for sure. Ok, you came back to the "why can't I say this?" thing twice, so that seems important to you. Same answer though - seems pointless to make a thread saying "let's make a blanket statement about this group of people, but for sake of argument, we'll leave out the people it most applies to" (collectors of graded books).

It "seems pointless" because you still fail to grasp the principles involved.

If a book is graded...again, "graded" here being a euphemism for SLABBED, not "graded by Fred the local comic shop owner"...then the point is moot: the book has already been professionally assessed by a third party grading company, and in 99.9992457% of all cases (that's a rough estimate, mind), the buyer of a slab knows exactly what they're going to be getting.

So no, the thread doesn't apply to them, because it has nothing to do with slabs.

This isn't unclear, it's not controversial, it's not particularly difficult to grasp, so I have to ask: are you just trolling for the sake of trolling? I mean, props if you are, because I've wasted more time on this than I should have, if you're just trolling to get a reaction.

It's simple: most buyers of raw books don't care about the grade of that book. If it would grade 9.4 at CBCS, great. If it would grade 8.0 at CBCS, fine. If it would grade 9.8 at CBCS, no problem. If it would grade 6.5 at CBCS, probably not an issue.

And when you understand that, and realize that you're competing...whether it's on eBay, or at a store, or at a con...with people who, for the most part, do not care about the grade of the book, so long as it's "good enough", which leads to sellers who also do not care, will cater to those clients (and scorn you), and can honestly tell you "everyone thinks my grading is spot on. What's YOUR problem??"...then it could potentially save you a serious amount of time that would be otherwise wasted dealing with people who don't care, and don't have to care.

Pretty simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
13. Closing irony: I pretty much agree with Doc's thread, it's just I quibbled a bit over the term "most". In other words, I pretty much agree with Doc's point, I just thing the percentage of collectors (sorry, buyers, not collectors - see Venn diagram) is likely not as high as Doc claims (which, apparently is 50.1% minimum).

Sigh.

50% plus 1 is not the same thing as 50.1%.

I mean, if you're just trolling for a reaction, you're doing pretty well, but this limbo you're in...is he serious, is he not serious, who knows?...doesn't give me much to work with. How's about you pick one, and then we can go from there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj

Now come on gang, please be fair on the upvotes for Doc (~15 K posts! he'c clearly the expert!) vs. little old me at a pittance of a little over 100!

lol

Thanks, but while approval and agreement from others is nice and appreciated, it's certainly not necessary. If I wanted to win the popularity contest, I'd just tell everyone what they wanted to hear.

I don't want to sound like one of the ridiculous gaggle of monstrous braggarts around here, but smarter men than you have tried and failed to take me down a peg. You're going to have to work a whole lot harder than this if you hope to have any chance, and I just don't see it in you.

7 years ago

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyJasmin
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyJasmin
Hoo-wee Doc, looks like I got under your skin with the SHOUTING COMMENT! :-) Say what you want Doc, caps is shouting. If you want emphasis, please refer to the "Bold" link at the upper left of the input box when you are typing. Please, my ears are bleeding. Example. Stay with me Doc:
SHOUTING! PLEASE DON'T DO THIS DOC MY EARS ARE BLEEDING!
-> emphasis <- This is ok Doc, we all get it when you emphasize.

I'll respond to the rest of this when I have time and desire. You've been making subtly, and now openly, snide and snarky comments. Are you interested in having a discussion, or just winning a snark battle? Because I can be as snarky as anyone, but that will lead to locks and suspensions, which I'd rather not. If you are reveling at thinking you "got under my skin", then you're not interested in a genuine conversation, but a snark battle. You are hardly the first person to complain about "caps-as-emphasis."

To the above: you can emphasize the way you wish, and I will emphasize the way I wish. When I think italics are appropriate, I use them. When I think bold is appropriate, I'll use it. When I think caps are appropriate, I'll use them. I wouldn't disrespect someone by dictating to them my style preferences; why do you...? If the occasional capitalized word is offensive to you, the answer is to not interact with those who do it.

But one question: who is the "we" you're referring to? Unless there are multiple personalities in your head, you only speak for you. There wasn't an election for board spokesman, so invoking "we" to bolster your point is a poor debate tactic.

Doc, I've been working in tech since WAY before the Internet was born. The consensus among my peers is caps is shouting. Unless you are among the few who take the view "hhmm... almost all scientists say global warming is a thing, that sure seems suspicious" then you should accept the view of the majority. Caps is shouting and just own one for once Doc. Maybe even change a behavior? It's ok, I do it all the time. Growth is good.

I thought I made it pretty clear in an earlier post that I don't care what a so-called "majority" thinks or believes. That is your opinion; other people differ. You can either let it be a stumbling block to you, or you can recognize it as a legitimate stylistic difference of opinion, and let it go. ALL caps...as the name suggests...is shouting. SOME caps is not. If you disagree, great, kudos for you. I am comfortable with my stylistic choices, and I am not the only one with this opinion.

I do not "accept views" simply because a group of people may have them. I accept views because they are true, and reject views that are not. If a majority of the people on the planet believed that Mars was made of creamy nougat, would that make it so...?

As far as global warming goes, science is not determined by consensus. Never has been, never will be. Science is determined by hypothesis, experiment, and conclusion, and nothing's going to change that, despite the best efforts of the religious deniers who claim otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
I see I just broke 200! Not bad for staying up past my bedtime. Wish I could engage further. I still suspect you are having fun.

If I didn't think there was value in replyig, I wouldn't waste my time.

There's a reason I never engage certain people around here: there's no value to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
And yeah, I do think I got under your skin a little. Can't prove it of course, it happens, no biggie, all is forgiven,

You're forgiving me for thinking you got under my skin...?

That's an interesting approach.

In any event, people will draw their own conclusions, as they always do, and as they always should.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tj
I'm with you the Incentive Variant is... ok a myth is extreme, but exaggerated for sure.

It's a myth. The ratios have nothing whatsoever to do with print runs, and never have. That may change in the future, or it may not, but if the numbers aren't even related, they certainly can't merely be "exaggerated."

7 years ago

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Pre_Coder "Most buyers DO NOT CARE about grade" I've still yet to read in this thread the substantiation of this claim. There will be no substantiation forthcoming. This is a principle based on long experience, observation, and common sense. Trying to prove it would require effort far more massive than the information is worth. You either agree with me, or you don't. If you do, and get some value from my experience, great. If you don't, it's no skin off my nose. If I'm wrong, it does no harm to anyone. If most buyers DO care about grade, then you have a well educated base who make decisions fully aware of the consequences of their actions, who never pay more than they think an item is worth, and don't have unrealistic expectations about anything. But if I'm right, it means that people who do care about grading can understand what they're up against, and adjust accordingly. Assuming that most buyers don't care about grading helps to understand why that "F/VF" copy of "Comic X #13" sold for more than a slabbed copy "in the same grade", and also grants a little more perspective when dealing with sellers who say "no one's EVER complained about my grading before!" when you get a book graded "NM!" that has a two inch tear on the back cover, water stains, and Cheeto™ fingerprints. They don't care, because they don't have to. By the way...this isn't a revolutionary idea. It's been observed for a very, very long time: https://www.toistersolutions.com/blog/2013/8/19/5-reasons-why-angry-customers-dont-complain "A lack of complaints doesn’t mean things are going well." Food was a little on the cold side? Meh. Close enough. Drink was a little watered down at the bar? Eh. It's fine. Car is a little less reliable than the maker promised? I can make do. Service a little on the slow side? It got taken care of eventually. Comic on the shelf a little banged up? No problem, I can still read it. That's just life.
	7 years ago	Post 125 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 13.26K	13.26K shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	@Tommy it’s all just bait. Barking up that tree you’ll never be correct no matter the facts, and you’ll be blamed for being emotionally wrong as well. Most folks here just walk past the tree nowadays
	7 years ago	Post 126 • IP flag post

CBCS broke up with me over Facebook. 4.34K	4.34K CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Crazy
	7 years ago	Post 127 • IP flag post