Most buyers DO NOT CARE about grade4980
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| DocBrown, a LOT of AmWay "product" meant to be consumed amongst seller's friends was "collected" in to basements and garages. Those first line seller's were indeed inadvertantly collecting: dust It is also very much the nature of the non-returnable "direct market" aspect in comic book speculation concepts now gussied up in a fancy plastic coffin by too many taking this aspect of the gig in to extremes akin to Tulip Mania. A major reason how secondary buyer levels such as the likes of Chuck, Buddy et al ended up with 10 million comics each and counting. I already, "been there, got the t-shirt" 30+ years ago now then natural flooding disaster destroyed same. Thought about going in to the paper mache brick biz for a few minutes. I never said wrote hinted at intimated Steve G owned owns ever owned aspects of CGC - dunno where you surmise that concept. Steve G also called a single person, not blindly in to an LLC entity And again, I call trimming destruction (take away) Restoration (to me) is when something is added to item. In 50+ years in this comics gig since 1966 placing first RBCC #47 there is very little I was not privy to and in cases helped a lot pioneer. Been taking out spine rolls since the 70s. With all the new guys on the set offering "pressing services" spine rolled well loved read comics have become down right scarce. But I never got in to and/or advocated piece replacement which to me defeats the purpose of each survivor maintaining its structural integrity so its story how it got up to today may be preserved rather then Frankensteins they have become instead. Using and strongly advocating mylar instead of plastic bags was one of them. Pushing acid free backer boards with that mylar < mylite another. Being one of Chris Pedrin's first "fortress" customers another. But we also had to learn it's short-comings just as the slab has damage potential short comings well documented at this stage of that game. And, once again still gently towards those who claim I "hate" slabbing, that is a misnomer constantly bandied abut by those who buh-leeve the BS slopped around inside that fruit stand across the street for some years now. Ergo, yes, micro-trimming falls in to category being looked at early on. There is actually little "new" you have yet to bring up to my attention (and we really should keep our mom's out of the equations in light of some psych evlauation out of Oregon - just saying  )Just a few off top of noggin having woke up at 5 am to begin the beguine one more day of pulling and packaging more eBay auction & such orders.Euro customers it's pushing noon there shortly. They be active having sold in to over 68+ countries my last count. I love selling on the internet as these dino-bones are worn out from shleppin 2 tons four times a week for 30 shows a year over the course of decades. Setting up, just traveling across country with a over-full van & trailer, is for the younger generation(s) of paper haulers bouncing their stuff along the pothole ridden roads of America. Lots of unknown damage occurs that way of inter-facing with customers. Now, for full disclosure, not being able physically to set up at shows as in days of yore brings Jackson Browne to mind.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQtYrl0QKig with many many versions available to absorb. I used to say to my self, "...just one more show..." and well after a thousand comicons set up from June 1967 thru April 2012 those days of daze are past participle in my personal lexicon. These days I focus much of my selling towards the readers of comics and still remain bemused when a slab guy asks, "Are your comics graded" meaning are all 6000+ listings certified by the "pros" - http://stores.ebay.com/BLBcomics Am beginning the process of auctioning off the contents of my warehouse ith 45,000 comics in it. There are going to be some good deals fr those who choose to follow along. If not, could care less. Goal is simply to build the nest for oldest kid's healing recovery from a 6th surgery coming shortly, pay off those still left from when CGC-centric misguided lost souls were overtly attacking 2011-2016, and if luck be with me have enough left over to finish Comic Book Store Wars. After seeing myself in the credits of over 200 books worldwide on about regarding dissecting comics, tis time I finish my main tome put on hiatus a decade ago whilst dealing with well documented medical scenarios. It has long been mostly written. Need six months "free" time to focus on putting all the visual aid puzzle pieces together framing the 100,000+ words early on edited by decades long friends like Julius Schwartz, Jerry Bails, others of near equal stature (you'll see) in to cohesive proper truthful time line which I hope its students read to enjoy and possibly learn from. Comic Book Store Wars is a sum total of interviews, talks, chats, meetings, with tens of thousands of collector friends met along a very long path now fading away. So many friends passed on now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdKNlGfkyhc has me buildng my bucket list instead post ipso facto             |
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| Post 76 • IP flag post | ||
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FN_2199 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Darkga I see this with Ikea products. People want Ikea products or they need one more piece for their Ikea hack but don't want to drive 2 hours back to Ikea. Since Ikea doesn't sell much online, someone who lives down the street from one of their stores will advertise the entire Ikea catalog on eBay for an inflated price and then simply go down the street to buy whatever the eBay customer bought from the eBay seller. |
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| Post 77 • IP flag post | ||
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Some one said they have bought and sold 100,000 comic books. In my day have bought & sold well over 3.5 million excluding that destroyed in the 86 warehouse flooding | ||
| Post 78 • IP flag post | ||
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos What were the shortcomings of a Fortress holder? I've only heard praise.  |
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| Post 79 • IP flag post | ||
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Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by neyko IF you are talking about Low Grade Comic Collectors on FB... those guys are judgmental dicks. Its the only FB group I ever left. As for the OP I would dispute people not caring about grade. I haven't met anyone yet that doesn't care about grade. Some of us may not anal and we may have to settle for lower or close or a price point but that doesn't mean that they don't care about the grade. Also to claim that people that don't care about grade are a majority without the stats to back you up is a bit bold. All I would say that people that are anal about grade are few and those that are not are far more common. |
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| Post 80 • IP flag post | ||
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Oxbladder Disagreements with the original poster will likely revolve around semantics. We all know that people care about grade to some extent. If I drop an Amazing Spider-Man #300 into an unflushed toilet, collectors will care. We all have different shorthand for compressing data in our brains and making the most logical purchasing decisions possible. Many of the disagreements here have nothing to do with what we know. It has everything to do with how we prefer to think about or describe what we know. |
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| Post 81 • IP flag post | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by BLBcomics Oh come on, Bob. lol That's not what anyone is talking about. Quote: Originally Posted by blb "Tulip Mania" does not apply to this situation in any way, for a variety of reasons that few here would be interested in reading, but a basic summary is that the foundation for "Tulip Mania" was that people weren't generally dealing in actual tulips, but rather, in short selling and [/i]futures trading[/i]...in other words, the general causes of later stock market crashes, including the most infamous one in 1929. That's not the case in slabbed comics. Also, "Tulip Mania" had to do with the demand for tulips themselves, while slabbing is just one very small part of the entire comics market. If the entire comic market crashes, the slabbed market will go down with it, but here's the thing: while the comic market survives, the slabbed market has yet to crash. "But...but...but what about 2008-2009, DB?? TONS of slabbed prices came crashing down! In fact, YOU'VE even mentioned that, hundreds of times over the years!" Absolutely. And why did those prices crash? Because they weren't real prices. They were artificial prices paid by impatient buyers (and there's nothing wrong with being an impatient buyer, most of the time), who HAD to have thus and such in thus and such grade, not realizing...or caring...that there were 50, 500, 5,000 more copies in that grade waiting in the wings for their own turn at slabbing. When that very real, very important point is considered, the fact is, in 18 years, the slabbed market has yet to crash, and it will take the crash of the entire comics market for that to be the case. Regardless of perception, "slabs" ARE NOT commodities in and of themselves, like tulips were. Despite the foolish opinions and behaviors of some, without the comic book INSIDE the slab, the slab itself has no value. Quote: Originally Posted by blb Then you'll have to explain these comments of yours, which directly refers to MY comment about the Certified Collectibles Group being an LLC: Quote: Originally Posted by blb You acknowledge that I was referring to the Certified Collectibles Group..."some LLC entity"...and use the phrase "across the street" which is generally used to refer to the competition, which would be CGC. If you weren't referring to CGC, maybe you could clarify who you mean, and who "Steve G" is, and just which "fruit stand" you're referring to? I have my guesses, but I don't want to assume. Quote: Originally Posted by blb I don't disagree with you, but that's not how the industry as a whole, or the grading companies, refer to it. If a book is trimmed, it goes into a "restored" slab, because, logistically, there's really no other option. The reasoning behind this is that the intent of trimming is to make the look better, which is the heart of restoration. People aren't trimming books to make them look worse, even if that's the end result a lot of the time. It's sound reasoning. And if we're talking about slabbed comics, we have to focus on what the industry as a whole thinks, not our individual opinions about the matter. To the original point, trimming is something that can't be detected by a black light. And...some other forms of restoration also cannot always be detected by black light...like married pages, for example. As others have pointed out, despite your claims to the contrary, restoration detection is not a matter of simply buying a black light and "ANY ONE" is now an "expert." Quote: Originally Posted by blb I'm not sure anyone's said you "hate" slabbing..."hate", after all, is a strong word...but when you refer to them as "coffins", you're not really expressing your great affection for them, are you...? And again you refer to the "fruit stand across the street." Just so we're all clear and on the same page, that's CGC, correct...? Quote: Originally Posted by blb If you're aware of micro-trimming, then that sinks your theory that all you need is a "eyeballs and/or rulers - preferably a combo there-of" to competently asses all instances of trimming, which also means one cannot be an "expert" at restoration detection as easily as you make it seem. Logical progressions, here. Quote: Originally Posted by BLB I very much look forward to seeing the finished product, though I do hope you get the outstanding issues with the comics community resolved sooner rather than later. Some of these folks have patiently waited for you to make things right for years. |
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| Post 82 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BLBcomics Without context, this is just bragging. I was the one who said I have bought and sold OVER 100,000 comic books. Why does that matter in the context of the discussion? Because it establishes that I have had a lot of books pass through my hands, far more than the average person, and even the average collector. I'm not just Joe Blow off the street who's never actually seen a comic, but bloviating about it anyways on an internet forum, like many unfortunately do. In the context of the discussion, it is an example of bona fides, of why my opinion might have more weight than others. If we're talking about comic book retailing in the 70's, I would naturally defer to you, because you actually experienced it directly. You WERE a comics retailer in the 70's so, barring stronger contradictory evidence, I'm going to defer to your experience and knowledge on the situation as greater than, say, someone born in the 90's. That doesn't mean your opinions about it are necessarily correct...it's simply a matter of weight. As for the comparison... 1. You've got 25 years on me. 2. I am not, and never have been, a "dealer." I have never owned a store, and have only set up at 3 conventions in my entire life. So, naturally, you would have handled far more comics than I. |
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| Post 83 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Oxbladder Hair successfully split. Did you read the original post, or just the title of the thread...? |
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| Post 84 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by X51 Except that when you're dealing with the small subset of buyers who DO care about that 1/16" spine stress mark, or that fingerprint on the back cover, or that thumb dent, and, more importantly, are willing to pay to have those things not be there...then it's no longer a matter of semantics in those cases. That's the heart of the matter. As the context of my original post makes clear, yes, people care about grade "to some extent." My point is that that "extent" is very low, and, to the obsessively anal types...like me...knowing that in advance can potentially save much time, effort, and frustration. |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown I agree. |
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| Post 86 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
| On an only very slightly related tangent... One of the reasons why I don't set up at conventions is that the thought of people pawing through my books and crunching them all up gives me hives. I'd also have a problem with it in a store. I like to deal with...and cater to...those who, like me, are interested in the ultra high grade stuff, and the vast majority of con dealers and retailers don't care about that stuff....and quite a few consider it an annoyance and a hindrance. Once you buy it, you're free to take it and burn it, but until that happens, keep your grubby Cheeto™ mitts off my books. |
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| Post 87 • IP flag post | ||
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by X51 Chris Pedrin's invention is indeed fantastic. Back before mylar was readily available in the mylite wafer thin variety. All there really was easy to stock it seems to me were the "guillotine" top loaders. All holders from everyone have potential for inadvertent book damage we have witnessed with some of the slabs. One had to become adept at figuring out just how many layers to place in as the books got more vintage ie thicker page counts. Some times the inexperienced soul made the layers too tight, too many times some would ignore the mylar supplied by Chris, then the color of the comic book would adhere to the glass in the summer time heat in those vans bouncing along to the shows nationwide. A few tragic accidents happened which gained widespread gossip which saw Chris phase out of the manufacturing now back in the day. His Fortress gig was not that many miles south of my then Berkeley store. I used them without trouble for "big ticket" books which is what the fortress was truly created for. |
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| Post 88 • IP flag post | ||
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Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown I read the post and disagree. You can bully and puff your chest all you like I disagree. I have yet to meet anyone that doesn’t care about grade. It just might not be the deal-breaker. |
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| Post 89 • IP flag post | ||
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BLBcomics So... the holders were fine and the problem was with the user? That's what I get from your reply. When I saw them, they were holding big ticket items... Wonder Woman #1, Detective Comics #1 etc. |
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| Post 90 • IP flag post | ||
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KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Probably a combo of user and holder problems. User for tightening too much/not using holder correctly and materials in holder for having adverse consequences when that happened. |
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| Post 91 • IP flag post | ||
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by KatKomics If you seal it properly, only Mylar makes contact with the book. If you have a thicker book, you set down another gasket spacer. What Bob described is user error. They are trying to press the book using a comic holder. They used to have a demo where they'd put a book in one of these and drop it in a tank of water. The book would come out dry. |
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| Post 92 • IP flag post | ||
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Homer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BLBcomics Since your bragging about your accomplishment, do you have anything to show for it monetarily. |
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| Post 93 • IP flag post | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Why can't I do what Doc? Make sense? As much as your sentence "my question to you is why can't you?" makes sense? It's a little fuzzy, but I seem to recall from grade school most sentences have, at minimum, a subject and a predicate. Let me simplify the analogy for you, and limit the context to exact statements you made to start the thread, to (hopefully) avoid further ambiguity. Thread title: Most buyers do not care about grade (except with your typical all-caps shouting in the middle). Followed shortly by "This applies, obviously, to raw books". So you're entire thread, is essentially: "Buyers don't care about grade, ignoring those who do." Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Oh, I get it now. You want to further restrict the range of your discussion to only people who buy comics, but don't collect them. Wow Doc, just wow. As if the vast majority of people who walk into comic stores these days plunk down $50 of their hard-earned money on comics averaging 4 bucks a pop, to just go home, and do anything but collect these? Really Doc? Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown And that's just a very inane point Doc. I can string a bunch of "very's" together too, and apply it to the few people who are privileged enough to just say dammit, I want an ASM 129, and I want it now! Maybe for most of us, our options are we simply can't have anything we want, whenever we want it. Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Which is... different than caring about grade, apparently? :-) This is exhausting Doc, we can go back and forth for days, and I know how your threads go, you will argue your points until people start believing the Earth is flat again. I don't have the time or energy for that. I'm fine with conceding you win here. I can't help but make the final point, however, that for this last volley you have 1 upvote and I have 6. It's clear when you state something here, for you it's unequivocal. But the readers hear, they don't seem to be in universal agreement. |
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| Post 94 • IP flag post | ||
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Homer Am merely talking about days that used to be. Fires, flooding, tornados & hurricanes, natural disasters from which you pick your self up (if you can) and start all over again. Back in the late 70s my pre-orders for Byrne Austin X-Men by #114 were 10,000 each. That was just the initial pre-orders. Then there was the buying up & out of other guy's inventories like when Joe Koch advertised X-Men #96 at a buck each. Used to get CBG overnight air mail each week. Called Joe up, he had 1200 copies, I said sold, bank wire drafted the bucks, he shipped em out the next day UPS. When the UPS man delivered them he was saying the seller had been trying to get the shipment halted and sent back. See, they were retailing at least on the west coast in NM for $10 by then. What I agreed to do with Joe was mail back one 300 case as I did feel a bit guilty. But then, again, that was why some of us paid the "big bucks" to get CBG when the "normal" world would get their copies a week later. Some of us had already vacuum cleaned out the super good deals which were almost literally every week. By the early 80s was buying out other store's stock as they gave up ghost of wanting to live in a comic book cave open to the public. Was also buying huge lots on expeditions back east to NYC & environs which began in 1970. When I co-opened by first comic book store Aug 1972 Swamp Thing #1 had just debuted, Smith was doing Conan still, Kirby New Gods Forever People were still coming out. When Hulk 181 came out we had bought our usual 900 copies of each we aimed at selling out of. It was a no biggie book until after Bryne was brought on to the X book. By the early 80s X-men from 114 thru 121 were retailing NM at $10 each. Chuck R used to set up right across from my tables at SDCC. Each year he would bring out a few suitcases of Edgar Church copies. End of the show on Sunday he would saunter over asking me if I would trade straight across my X retail for his then double guide Mile High issues. He would wrack up a few grand in X and I would pick out Church issues. Amassing over 400 Church copies that was our "system" worked great for 1983 84 85 up till the BTW central warehouse destruction flooding. My NM/M factory fresh $10 X issues cost me half of 35 cents. He got what he needed even more (Bryne X ruled the known comics universe back then for some years) based off his per copy cash outlay for some 20,000 NM/M vintage comics. I stopped my then ten tables at SDCC due to the ensuing implosion. Began funding $75K for a Ch 11 re-org and as part of that sold all the 400+ Church books to Steve Geppi one phone call. Faxed the list, bank wire, shipped em out, thanks for the memories. |
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| Post 95 • IP flag post | ||
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by KatKomics Yo X51, yes, my longish story short, more user than holder problems. KatKomics has aspects down as well. One had to be semi-trained in proper methodology. Some accidents with some big ticket books led to an evolution more in to Mylar with much thicker acid free boards being marketed which were infinitely less expensive. The Fortress as such was much more expensive per unit cost. I always thought and was a but scared putting Fortress books in boxes like many do the slabs of today, then trekking half way across the country to set up at shows on a regular basis. See, most of the major shows being held during hot summer months. If not placed in just right with the thin mylar, or not using mylar as some tried out, being too tight from not having enough layers, bad PR accidents ensued. All that jostle up and down, hitting pot holes, sliding on ice, braking hard as a result, etc etc served to magnify potential damage pitfalls encountered hauling one's good to the market place(s) to interface with buyers & traders. I have Chris's story written down amongst all my boxes of interviews, research materials, etc going in to Comic Book Store Wars have been getting back in to finally after a lost decade. And I really have to get back at packaging eBay stuff. Some of you here bought some, I hobble on crutches much of the day being semi-disabled this past decade. I need to pick up the pace.... |
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| Post 96 • IP flag post | ||
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| DocB, Your technique of taking a person's post and making quotes within quotes within quotes may work wonderful for you - and others here. Me, this old dinosaur begins seeing same like one looks "inside" an infinity comic book cover. AmWay marketing techniques is how others outside the thin sliver of the slab world which is yet just another microcosm of the wide world of comics. Those who go to the shows see some booth with semi acres of boxes of slabs - which is what led to AmWay comparison. Tulip Mania is simply a slice of real life history. There are many other examples thru the centuries. TM lasted a while then it simply clogged up as greater fools to pay even more were getting harder to find. The original customer base simply begins to die off after a few decades. We are already in that slow motion phase. So-called "whales" are paying the super big bucks for select few titles & numbers based on what their "wealth manager experts" are telling them to invest in. Certain titles will maintain their "worth" yet turn over much more slowly trading primarily amongst a select few who choose to believe what the kool-aide dispenser tells them to. It is the vast majority of lesser titles which are "certified" being 9.8 types which slow down to a crawl then go off to hide die in storage as not every thing that high a cert number are worth ten times the lowly POS 9.2 NM-. This aspect is already readily visible all over where I look. re micro trimming and responses you made seems to me you are micro-trimming on the analysis presented. Micro-trimming is as common as verified voter fraud. Such a tiny percent to be negligible If I were in the market and had the bucks to buy that VFNM Detective 27 sold at Heritage a while ago i would be pulling out the electron microscope to ascertain all sorts of nuances in the paper. But of course bigger buck books can possibly trigger trim fraud like what began happening at Mastronet out of Chicago. That CEO guy went to Fed Prison last year June 2016 for five years. I am not in to trim scenarios as I view cutting away on comics as "destruction" - either way you wish to continue nano-slice parsing my words, the purple kiss of death is attached there-to when detected. Then again not all comic books come out of the binding trim sequence at the printing plant all the exact same size. I have accumulated some pretty fun manufacturing defect comics over the decades. I collect same for the comics business research I have conducted for decades. I should find that box and scan some examples gleaned out of the few million comics I have bought & sold earlier on. I even have a few dozen Pop Hollinger copies which are a delight to try to figure out how he was working his taping folding machine. Much of the rest of what you compiled in that longish "quote" machine post has pretty much been covered. Again, I will state, take it or not, when CGC-centrics maliciously attacked eBay store with orchestrated Intent to Disrupt, and being semi-disabled the past decade etc, when one's cash flow is disrupted like that, becomes a mite difficult to keep up balance of payments. Am talking on this chatroom in threads as I have stated intent. And finally able to physically make a strong stab at it. |
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| Post 97 • IP flag post | ||
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| and, re your original thread starter, most buyers want a decent nice copy they can read and enjoy such play under the covers. Guys I sell are mainly my age filling in holes in certain runs but more so collect by the artist creator in the main. Not first appearance driven, or movie appearance flipper driven, or exotic pre-manufactured low low print run cover variants, or needing witnessed sigs from creators on covers which is then sealed up These all have a place in the sun - to be sure. It is simply common knowledge amongst the greater wider comics reading world such is viewed in part as aberrant behavior fads - which come and go with the moon tides. Was at that very first meeting Geppi called May 2000 with Bruce Hamilton as hired pitch man The meeting called all the OPG "advisors" in to one room. Long story short, agreement was made there was a place for such an ethical service between buyer and seller as there was back then a wide open lawless range rider types working on books who did not know what they were doing. Me, by accident of birth, I have seen much most all this unfold in real time over the decades. Most of my own comics gurus are passed on over these same past decades. I know most all the warehouse finds of the 60s 70s 80s. Heck, exactly parts of which I was scoring trading batches for batches as my goal before the flood was to attempt to field at the same time as least one of every comic book from 1934 on up back when I also still believed the Yellow Kid first comic strip 1895 and Famous Funnies #1 first comic book 1934 as the given gospel. Best of Two Worlds got to 85% complete on that goal. Fueled by rampant comics speculators and getting in on pieces of many fabulous warehouse finds back in the day. The finders would seek me out. Then natural disaster hits, wipes out 20 years work building a little empire. Changes one perspective of what is important in life. After that my quest became data on the evolution of the business of comic books. That trek is back on track as is the now just beginning of thinning out the herd given limited mobility. Worked at the eBay store filling orders and packaging from 5 AM till 6 PM. Thirteen hours has zonked me out for the night. Tomorrow yet another push. Pacing myself out of necessity. And here is my white paper Military #15 with its super neat Reed Crandall proto-EC three witches story. Some silverfish ate a small piece of the upper edge spine long ago before I got it. This and #9 with its Eisner Man in the Iron Mask Blackhawk story are my favorite two of that title. Had em, read em all from 1 thru 102 (Moderns also). The first few are fun BH stories but enhanced with neat Jack Cole Death Patrol from whence Blackhawk was born as a "serious" counter weight. This Military 15 is otherwise way solid high grade. Silverfish only eat the unprinted white paper portions of slick covers, not the color printed portions, and never pulp paper from my obsrvations.  |
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| Post 98 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by TommyJasmin Here, I'll post it again: "you can't make a generalization while first excluding an unknown percentage of the total population." So my question to you is...why can't you? Seemed pretty clear already from the context, but I'm happy to clarify further. Quote: Originally Posted by tj If we're going to get pedantic, you ought not forget that I included an ellipsis, which you did not quote, and which negates your complaint. That you didn't understand it, doesn't therefore mean it didn't make sense. "I can say the same about you!" Granted. Which is why I asked for clarification; clarification which, to a great extent, you haven't provided. Quote: Originally Posted by tj Good. Looking forward to less ambiguity. Quote: Originally Posted by tj You are incorrect. WHEN YOU TYPE EVERY WORD IN A SENTENCE, THAT IS THE STANDARD INTERNET PRACTICE TO DENOTE SHOUTING. Literally, it's when the entire sentence...or ALL of it...is in caps. Hence, the phrase "ALL caps", not "MOST caps" or "SOME caps." However...when you only capitalize CERTAIN words within a sentence, that is understood to be EMPHASIS...not "shouting", as many erroneously claim throughout the internet. The fact that NOT ALL of the words are capitalized means it is not "all-caps." Contextually, it always amuses me when someone interprets a stray capitalized word or three as "shouting." It must sound very odd in their head, because it doesn't make any sense if it is SHOUTING. If, however, it is for EMPHASIS, then it DOES make sense. See this video for further explanation: (Note title of video...is she SHOUTING the words "SENTENCE STRESS", or is she just emphasizing them?) Quote: Originally Posted by tj Since you opted to be pedantic earlier, I hope you'll forgive me for being pedantic now...without noting who has done it justifiably. The word you're looking for is "your." "Your" is a pronoun which indicates possession. "You're" is a contraction of the words "you" and "are." "So you are entire thread, is essentially: " doesn't make any sense, as I'm sure you can see. Also, there's no need for a comma after the word "thread." Normally, I ignore the vast swaths of grammar, spelling, and punctuation errors that infest the internet like the plague, but, again, since you took the liberty of attempting to correct a sentence of mine, I hope you don't mind if I return the favor. Quote: Originally Posted by tj Incorrect. You JUST (emphasis, remember, not "shouting" ) quoted the title of my thread: MOST buyers. That means, self-evidently, that there is a portion of buyers who DO care about grading. The title of the thread, therefore, ignores no one, since both the explicit most and the implicit remainder are not ignored. Glad to clarify that for you. Quote: Originally Posted by tj That is not correct. You quoted the relevant part, so I'm not at all sure why you don't understand what I've said. Here, let me say it again, though it is literally just a couple sentences up: "Collectors are PART OF the group of buyers, but they are not all of it." That means collectors are INCLUDED in the group of buyers, but the distinction is made between collectors and buyers. All collectors are buyers, but not all buyers are collectors. I would diagram it for you, but I'm too lazy to do so at the moment. Ah hell, here:  (Not even REMOTELY to scale) (The things I do to make a good argument...) So, as you can see, I am talking about ALL buyers, which INCLUDES all collectors. MOST buyers of comics DO NOT CARE about grade (as in, "you said this was a 9.4, but it's only a 9.0!!! SCAM!!!!!" ), even collectors. That does not therefore mean that they don't care if the book is coverless, or badly torn, or otherwise mutilated. You need to understand the distinction I'm making, or this entire discussion won't make any sense to you. Here, I'll say it in a different way that might make it more clear to you: "This thread is not JUST about whether COLLECTORS care about grade, but whether BUYERS care about grade. All collectors are buyers, but not all buyers are collectors." Again, glad to clarify further. Quote: Originally Posted by tj My point, as you are trying to make it be, IS NOT exclusionary (remember: emphasis, not "shouting" ) I didn't say anything about "do anything but collect these." However...the point remains that the vast majority of people who buy comics aren't collectors...they are readers. How do I know this...? It's fairly straightforward: the vast majority of comics aren't collectable. That is, people interested in comics have decided, as an organism called "the comic market", that they have no interest in paying any sort of premium for the vast, vast, VAST majority of comic books published (and by premium, I mean, "a price greater than the average cover price at the present time." ) But we DO know that people buy these comics, because they trade on a regular basis at prices above $0.00. There are quite literally billions of comic books that exist; at any given time, only a small fraction of them are for sale, and the books taken to conventions are invariably the ones with the most potential for profit; ie., the "collectable" ones. And there have been times, after the establishment of comic books as collectibles in the mid-60's, where owners of comics DID throw out pallets and pallets of comics that were totally worthless, and which no one wanted. That isn't the case, and hasn't been the case for a long time, but there was a time in the mid to late 90's where the storage costs were more than the value of the books being stored, and so into the trash they went. The fact that many, many comics are published today which have zero "collectible" value proves the point: the people buying these, for the most part, aren't collectors; they're readers, and buyers, for the most part, do not care about condition the way buyers of slabbed comics care about condition...or, to be more precise, "the grade on the slab." All of that is an interesting tangent, but the point is, collectors are only a portion of the buyers, but they aren't at all excluded from the greater pool of buyers of which they are a part. You've made some interesting interpretations, here. Quote: Originally Posted by tj So say you. Quote: Originally Posted by tj Oh boy. Trigger warning! "Privileged"...? "Few people"...? None of this has anything to do with the point, which was that if your, AS YOU SAID, "fave dealers" don't have what you're looking for....regardless of what it is....then you will have to look for sellers who DO have it, or forego it until and IF your "fave sellers" manage to find one for you. Forget ASM #129. It was an EXAMPLE. How about Doom Patrol (1987) #4? Action Comics #482? Fantastic Four #413? The same exact principle applies. The principle has nothing to do with the value of the book. And it is the PRINCIPLE (remember, emphasis, not "shouting" ) that applies, here, not the example. You're arguing against points and statements that no one made. Quote: Originally Posted by tj I've made this point several times. Others have made this point. The point is IN the sentence, right there, that you just quoted. I'll make it again, and hopefully, this time it sticks...? Yes, it IS "different than caring about grade"...they care about condition TO AN EXTENT. But ONLY to an extent. MOST buyers aren't bothered if a comic is graded "Near Mint" by someone selling it, and it would only grade 9.0 at CBCS. That. Is. The. Whole. Point. This isn't a difficult principle to understand. Quote: Originally Posted by tj You're telling me! It IS exhausting dealing with people who don't understand what someone else has said, and become snarky about it, who meander into irrelevant sidepoints, like whether or not someone can buy an ASM #129, as if the example to illustrate a principle was the principle itself. Very exhausting. Quote: Originally Posted by tj ...and what is the opposing party, or parties, doing...? Right: "Arguing their points until people start believing the Earth is flat again." It's not a valid point, yet that doesn't stop the intellectually lazy from making it on a regular basis. Do you know what the quickest way for you to end any "argument" is...? You stop arguing. No one can "argue" by themselves, but those who don't...or can't...make their points fairly resort to ad hominem, as you have done here, while completely ignoring their own participation in said "argument." It's sloppy, lazy, and disrespectful, both to your opponent, and everyone reading this. I'm not offended by it, but others might be. If you, as you claim, "know how my threads go"...don't you then bear some responsibility for choosing to take part in a thread like this anyways...? Quote: Originally Posted by tj So, you make comments in a thread, but when those comments are challenged, or you are just asked to clarify what you mean, you "don't have the time or energy" to deal with that...? If I make a comment, I expect and am fully prepared to have it challenged, because that's how public discourse works. If I can't be bothered to defend my opinion, I don't post it at all. That's how it's supposed to work. Quote: Originally Posted by tj That you refer to a discussion as "winning" or "losing" demonstrates that you don't understand or respect the value of dialogue, as does everyone who goes into any discussion as if it were a contest to be won or lost. The goal is to understand where people are coming from, not verbally beat them into submission. Quote: Originally Posted by tj Oh please. You don't SERIOUSLY (remember, emphasis, not "shouting" ) think that the "like" system here is even remotely indicative of legitimate survey of opinion, but rather a poor man's popularity contest...? Here...? Hear...? Hear here! I'll assume your last statement is meant as a joke, and give it the appropriate "lol." The "upvote" system is not scientific in the least, and should never be construed as consensus about any opinion or topic, outside of a few very specific exceptions. |
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Collector
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| You lost me Doc. I'm long-winded... but sheesh. Add this musical interlude to your next book. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BLBcomics You've made this claim before, Bob, and I don't quite understand the numbers...maybe you can explain it to me. In X-Men #120, the Statement of Ownership was filed, which said the average number of copies sold for the year which included X-Men #114 was a mere 115,260 copies. That's for every copy sold in North America, and possible every copy sold in the UK, too (the reporting isn't entirely clear on that point.) So, if the books averaged 115k copies sold, how did you, a single dealer with some stores in the SF Bay Area, account for nearly 10% of those sales...? And at a time when the entire Direct Market accounted for less than 10% of total sales? I'm not familiar with how distribution worked in the late 70's; can you explain how there were "initial pre-orders" at that very early time in the history of the Direct Market? Quote: Originally Posted by blb Wow...when was this? That's a fascinating piece of history! |
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past performance is no guarantee of future actions.
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KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Ok...getting a bit too much to re-read etc. but I think I'm a bit of both types of consumer and multiple viewpoints are probably correct. I am both a reader and collector. For books I read I generally care about condition and handle the books carefully and as long as there isn't some major flaw I mostly don't look though and pick the best on the rack (my LCS pulls the books for me - I just pick up my bag). I know full well they will likely never be 'worth' anything. Have many titles that can still be picked up for cover or less in my small 7k collection (don't tell the wife it's small...she already thinks it takes up too much space!). For books I 'collect' I care but only to a certain extent. I'm only 43 but that's old enough to be around before slabs and to think that 9.2 is NM and that while 9.8 is nice I personally can not justify paying multiples of the 9.2 price. I am happy to buy a NM raw as advertised and as long as it is 9.0 or higher I'm ok with that. My problem with the 9.8's or 9.6's of 'rare' slabbed books are that there are people like me who have these books (so not really rare - can't be if even I have it - as some people advertise) and they are not graded - since I currently do not intend to sell I slab very few each year (5 or less). What happens when I and others slab our books? That prior 9.8 will eventually, potentially become common place and drive the price down? Now I do like 9.8's mainly because they currently are devaluing the 9.2 to 9.6 books so that I can affordably pick them up!! |
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Drogio private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by KatKomics And we have our latest member quote to be taken out of context... |
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| DocBrown, The numbers I cite are what I know to be my own truth about what i was doing in the comics world pre 1986. I had X Brynes in such a depth I had little true competition. Back then I called it turning the faucet off and on. Making a book scarce for a while amongst my 300 or so big buyer speculator accts of which only some had actual walk in stores. It was a different world then than now. What ever shows up in those Statements of Circ are to be taken not so literally. Post Batman TV show craze glut 1966-68 coming in to 1969 the concept of "honor" system affidavit return fraud kicked in for years up in to the mid 70s as cover prices soared 12 15 20 25 30 35 50 75 $1 in quick succession by the time we get to the 80s. Stuff was being sold for cash out the back loading docks at many of the then 900 ID companies then in that near monopoly periodical distribution business which no longer exists in such a returnable structure. I cover much of this in my Secret Origins of the Direct Market in 25,000+ words printed in Comic Book Artist #6 Fall 1999 and #7 Feb 2000 mag edited by Jon B Cooke published by TwoMorrows.com where one can score the PDF downloadable issues for a few dollars each. My friend Neal Adams informed me his self esteem in comics from that era was restored by those two articles. His X-men, GL/GA were in reality most excellent sellers - it just that the NYC Code publishers were not seeing the real sales/.  |
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past performance is no guarantee of future actions.
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KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Drogio Hey.....leave my member alone!!!  |
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