Opinion – various cost of sigs and drawings4452
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
 Prior to Beanworld Larry Marder was asking me in 1985 during SDCC if he could draw in my comics memory book. There was an intensity about him I could not say no to. Larry was not yet published. He then came thru during the 40th anniv of SDCC and made another entry in 2009. Heck of a nice guy. The concept of slabbing 3rd party grade certifications on comics is not alien to me. Nor do I reject books have a special cert grade attached to them. In the beginning May 2000 at a special meeting Steve Geppi called in Baltimore area for Overstreet advisors Bruce Hamilton was CGC's original pitch man selling every one on the idea that "restoration" checks on the comics during what was then an epidemic of books being worked on was indeed an idea to warm up to. My views regarding CGC center only on the utter lack of ethics on the part of the owner of CGC regarding in-house damaging of All Star Comics #8 and the ensuing "intent to disrupt" attacks freezing up on my eBay store 2011 thru 2015 which were devastating. I applauded CBCS coming on the set a couple years ago - and continue to do same as it has forced CGC to back off their drive to attain monopoly over the sales of comic books on the net. Yes, am fully aware an accident of birth time line concepts (born 1952) allowed guys of my generation to meet up and matriculate with many who went on to become "super stars" in the field these past decades. Heck, guys like Art Adams, Mike Mignola, Darrick Robertson, others, used to be pre teen kids working sorting comics for trade credit in my stores. Interacting with a creator having some thing signed when you are there with him/her is authentication enough for me. Most all my acquisitions in that realm are personalized to me along with date done, place (like SDCC, NYC, Chicago, etc) so the creator knows it is for "me" and not for resale purposes. I hosted Frank Miller at his very first in-store signing back in Dec 1981 for DD #181 death of elektra issue. Over 4000 Bay Area comics fans came thru all obtaining "free" sigs. He signed non-stop from 9 AM thru 9 PM Saturday, then 10 AM thru 3 PM Sunday. And I mean non-stop - they were lined up thru the store, out the door, down the block. Part of Saturday was raining also. The week end before Xmas that year. Half the Bay Area comic book store owners closed their stores to come in to Berkeley as we were all " real fans" back in the day. My inter-actions with pros of all ages and stripes stem from getting in to the art of the story telling under the covers. That said, if one wants to continue the path of cover sig placement being witnessed then slabbed up, more power to whomever. My observations shared here and else where are merely about there will remain blow back from some creator types who do not see that as long term healthy for the hobby turned "big" business. Placing the comic books inside plastic coffins is indeed manufacturing commodity akin to buying a DVD/BlueRay, never opening it, getting actors & directors to sign all over it, then slabbed - and never playing the movie. Just an opine, mind you. Frank Miller drew The Spirit in my memory book drawing on Will Eisner inspiration as that night we had gotten really stoned and poured thru my then 550+ (near complete run of) Spirit sections.He had never seen so many all at once. Blew his mind at the time.  |
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cbj102 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| UGH! Going to NYCC in a few days and I love to get my books signed (I don't sell) BUT I wonder how many sigs I can afford? Some guys high on my list are.. Art Adams, Bret Blevins, Chris Claremont, David Finch, Ed McGuinness, Erik Larsen, Humberto Ramos, Michael Golden and Walt Simonson. Any body met and got sigs from these guys? How did it go? Do you remember how much? or was it free? |
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| Post 202 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BLBcomics But not a fair one. While there is an aspect of the comic collecting industry that does, indeed, treat these things like stocks, having no attachment to them whatsoever beyond their monetary value, I believe, and choose to believe, that that segment is small and will, when things cycle around as they always do, vanish into the ether once more. There have ALWAYS been people who smell opportunity...whether it was in 1965, or 1977, or 1981, or 1996, or 2017...who follow the money, and care nothing for the vehicle through which it is made. That was true when you had your stores, and it's true now. The vast, vast majority of people getting these books signed...and I know, because I'm one of them, and know the other players well...are doing it because they appreciate the work. I have "reading copies" of just about everything I have slabbed, and the reason I have them slabbed is BECAUSE of those reading copies, books I read and loved...and I'm not, by far, the only one. Thinking that people getting signed books slabbed are doing it solely for money, and have no connection to the books...or, as you put it, "never played the movie"...is a bad assumption, no matter who is making it. There are a few...but only a few. The vast majority appreciate the work, and have that copy they watch over and over again. That's reality, whether it's perceived or not. And people shouldn't have to prove they're fans to be treated with basic respect and courtesy. I've watched the demeanor of some creators completely change when presented with a book they think is going to be slabbed, because of this mostly false assumption - and they were completely wrong. Do they care...? Maybe. Should they care...? Maybe. I know it turns ME off when someone makes assumptions about me that aren't true...do these creators know that...? Many don't. And characterizing slabs as "coffins" doesn't do much to help these false perceptions, Bob. |
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| Post 203 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by cbj102 Art, Ed, and Walt are generally free, BUT...BUY something from them, or put in a fair amount of money into the donation box for Heroes if they have one...minimum is generally $1/book. If you get 10 books signed, don't put in $5...put in $20. Claremont charges ($10-$20), Humberto charges ($5-$10), and Golden charges ($5-$10.) Walt and Louise are great, so is Art. Art doesn't talk much, but his wife Joyce will. I don't know about Dave , Bret, or Erik, but I imagine Bret is free, too. |
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| Post 204 • IP flag post | ||
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BLBcomics It's a good observation. Contrary to what others have stated, there are plenty of folks who own books (and signed books) in coffins that they have never read, do not have reader copies of, and *maybe read them online just because they have the slab (not vice versa). As an example, look up "comic book investing". How many sites come up with "expert" advice! Even comiclink, a respected auction house, has investment advice. People are buying up plenty of books they never read, or ever intend to read. Hell, I own a few slabs (er, coffins) of the commodity type. I think you are absolutely correct, Bob; in different words, putting comics in slabs has certainly transformed many of them into nothing more than a commodity. Not all, but yes, many. Maybe even most. |
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| Post 205 • IP flag post | ||
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Lonestar private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by cbj102 Walt Simonson & Michael Golden were both at Baltimore two weeks ago. Walt Simonson did not charge, but asked for donations to Heroes Initiative. Michael Golden was $5 per book, $10 if witnessed for CGC/CBCS. Chris Claremont was at Tidewater back in May. At that time he charged $5 per book, $10 if witnessed for CGC/CBCS. |
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| Post 206 • IP flag post | ||
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cbj102 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Thanks @DocBrown & Lonestar these guys are like rock stars to me and I agonize over which books to get signed as I don't make it to cons often. | ||
| Post 207 • IP flag post | ||
 I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
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drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by cbj102 Most of the guys you mentioned are reasonable. |
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| Post 208 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer So you say. I find it interesting that anyone would presume to know what is in other people's hearts and minds, and that's what's being done here. "Oh, you want to SLAB this? Not a real fan. Fake fan. Get out of my line, you filthy profiteer! NEXT!" You think there are "plenty of folks who own books in coffins that they have never read..."? If so, how many? What proportion of the comic collecting industry do these people make up, and more importantly, how does anyone tell the difference based on appearance? I'll answer those questions: you don't know. No one does. The proliferation of "comic investment sites" does not therefore mean that everyone slabbing is solely about the money, nor does it turn every slab into a "commodity." Nor does it, by the way, mean that all of those people running and participating in said investment sites aren't fans, either. Many of them participate...as I have argued before about retailers...BECAUSE they are fans. And, even if the answer is "more likely than not", so what? It's still not try for everyone, and even if it's not true for even one person (and we know that's true, just by this discussion) then it's not reasonable to make that assumption about everyone. Bob's sold comic books for decades...he's made his entire adult life about selling comic books. Is he not a fan, because he's "making money"? He's "profiting" off of these creators' efforts? I don't think so, not in the slightest. I don't think anyone could credibly make that claim. And yet, because people are slabbing books and selling them...motivations and reasons be damned...they're, all of them, "not real fans", according to some. Tell me how that makes any sense...? Calling them "coffins"...especially on a slabbing company's message board...is a disservice. It perpetuates the idea that people slabbing...sig series or not...are doing so solely for monetary reasons, as if that slab is every book's "final resting place." That's not true, and never has been true, despite what anti-slabbers vociferously claim. And while it's usually true for sig series books, that still doesn't mean the term is a positive one to use to refer to slabs. Making assumptions about the people who come to see you to get their stuff signed...whether it turns out to be true or not...is simply bad policy, because there will be times when it's not true, and then what...? |
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| Post 209 • IP flag post | ||
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer  |
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| Post 210 • IP flag post | ||
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by X51 I agree. I stopped collecting along time ago and then came back to it years later. I understand where you are coming from. |
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| Post 211 • IP flag post | ||
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Doc Wait, I'm not allowed to "presume to know" here, but you are? Yes, we disagree on this entire subject, but this really is not productive. Lets move on. Here's what I said: Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer Here's what you said: Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown And here's your response to me, which if you truly believe, would apply as well to your own post. Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown I might remind of another quote as well, a quote in which I thought was quite wise actually. Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Let's not make this personal, shall we? I rather enjoy this subject of debate  |
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| Post 212 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer No. That's the point. No one is. Again, that's the point. Quote: Originally Posted by sb Anyone and everyone is free to move on with any discussion at any time they see fit. The answer to moving on is not continuing to discuss it. If there is continued discussion, clearly, parties have not "moved on", but have decided to stay and discuss, and there's nothing wrong with either option. Is this not true...? And...we disagree on this entire subject...? Do you believe that...? Quote: Originally Posted by sb I have no idea what you're talking about, here, unfortunately, and don't have any idea how what you just posted relates to what I said. You're going to have to explain to me what was personal about what I said to you. For distinction, you do know that using the word "you" when NOT followed by a personal comment about someone means that comment isn't personal, right...? Just for clarity's sake, saying "you don't know" is not "personal." It's not a comment about your personality or method of expression or foibles or anything about you, personally. Plus, it's true for everyone. You don't know, I don't know, Marv Wolfman doesn't know, Len Wein didn't know, George Perez doesn't know...nobody knows what's in the hearts and minds of people getting books slabbed, based on the appearance. So, while no, you cannot know what is in someone's heart and mind simply by looking at them...and no one can know that...that doesn't mean that you can't know what's in someone's heart of mind if they choose to tell you (which is the situation I describe above.) I am confident in making these statements because I have direct experience with many of these folks, over many years, and have discussed the issue, often over dinner and/or drinks, long into the night. Do I know the precise amount? Nope. Can I give with any certainty a precise number? Nope. Can I even divide a person into "this is the profit part, and this is the fan part?" Nope. I can't even divide MYSELF that way. No one can. But, as can be seen from the context of my statements, the answer to the question is "how many people getting books signed and slabbed are doing it because they're fans?" isn't "no one", and that's really the point. If it's not "no one", then creators are doing themselves a disservice to make snap judgments about the person standing in front of them, and worse, upcharging them because of it. |
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| Post 213 • IP flag post | ||
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BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I appreciate the straight forward conversation(s) regarding the myriad levels and aspects of collecting. This Yellow SS aspect I am seriously trying to learn what runs the wagon(s) of those in to same. So far i think there have been fair and balanced reasoning involving much most of those who seek this aspect of collecting. I have only been bringing up the Perception is Reality concept as there seems to be a public awareness issue in a negative vein brought on i surmise from those "flippers" who have made it more difficult for those who collect purely (mainly) for enjoyment If this were over on the other side of the street from CBCS a long time ago Troll-Bots would have been high jacking the thread sending it off in all sorts of blind alley dead ends.  |
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| Post 214 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by BLBcomics I appreciate your willingness to understand the issue, but it's interesting that you mention perception being reality so much. My perception about what would happen at CGC, and what happens here, are entirely 180 degrees opposite from yours: that it would be taken much more seriously at the CGC board (and, indeed, has been), but that the Troll-Bots would attempt to have the thread locked...indeed, have started to make overtures in that direction...as they have done with countless threads for just about the whole existence of this board. |
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| Post 215 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Here, let's break this down a little more simply, because I know concepts can get lost in the weeds: You, shrewbeer, say "Contrary to what others have stated, there are plenty of folks who own books (and signed books) in coffins that they have never read, do not have reader copies of, and *maybe read them online just because they have the slab (not vice versa)." How do you know that? How CAN anyone know that? Do people announce something like that? Think about it: "I don't know anything about comics, have never read them, and don't care a thing about them, and only care about them because they're worth $$$. I don't read comics, but I read one online once because I had a slab of it." Why would anyone say that? It's negative, and detrimental to be honest about that, even if and when it's true (and it IS true, for some!) So, no one can know that there are "plenty of folks who own books in coffins that they have never read", etc. It's not something that people would readily admit, so it's not something that others can readily know. On the other hand, I say "it's not true that everyone, or even the majority, are into slabbing just because of the money, but because they are fans, and take an active interest in the works of these creators." How do I know that? Because I'm one of those people, and I know many people who have said "yes, I'm getting this signed and slabbed because I love (insert creator's name here) and have read everything they've ever written/drawn." Lots of people say that. It's a positive expression. How many? Don't know. Are they the majority of SS slabbers? YES. How can I know that? Because of the fact that these slabs sell to people. Are some of those people "investors"? Of course. But are most of those people just fans? Yes, because if that wasn't the case, there would be no market for these...as there wasn't 10 years or so ago. If the majority of these books were being sold to other "flippers" or "investors", the market would not be able to sustain itself...again, as it did not, about 10 to 15 years ago. There was functionally no market for Sig Series, because A. people didn't really know it existed (that's me!) and B. those who did were doing it ENTIRELY for fan reasons, and not selling them (and, couldn't really if they wanted to...again, no market) and C. there weren't that many around. Then, someone sold one, and it sold for decent money, and the domino effect began, and we have the market we have today...because collectors formed the foundation of that market. People saw it, liked it, and said "wow! I have to have one...or two...or ten...or a hundred...of those! Those are COOL!" Hell, I tried to sell a 9.0 Frazetta signed Vampirella #1 Royal Blue in 2008, to recoup the costs of getting my other ones done, and it didn't even cover the cost! I was out $750 for the sigs ALONE, plus another $200 for the grading, and the 9.0 sold for $527. That's a book that would sell for three times that amount, if not more, today. And who would it be sold to...? Who is paying $1500-$2000 for a Frank Frazetta sig...? Investors? Flippers? No, collectors! |
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| Post 216 • IP flag post | ||
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Again, the point is being lost. You're getting on me for "presuming to know", and again reiterating, that "no one" should do it, yet youre doing it yourself. Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown You know all of the people who get books signed, and therefore can conclude with certainty that the "vast majority are doing it because they appreciate the work"? You dont know that. No one does. It's a presumption, an educated guess. Which, by the way, makes for a good productive discussion. Just don't get on me for doing the same. Thats all the point was  |
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| Post 217 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer Incorrect. See the post above. |
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| Post 218 • IP flag post | ||
 He sounds like a vegan who wants real mayonnaise to be vegan friendly.
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Instant_Subtitles private msg quote post Address this user | |
| ...And this is why I am prone to sticking with AFA/VGA in terms of "in coffin" stuff. Because investors will pay $2,000 for a vintage Frank Frazetta signed comic if they are convinced that they will see a x1.5 increase, or higher, by the time they are convinced it is time to sell their investment. Which is why many flippers are purchasing titles that are of little value, and doing what it takes to increase their profit margins. And the only hobbyists/collectors who pay the prices the investors and flippers ask for are the ones that have no other options. They chose to make this the focal point of their hobby, and they also do not have the ability to do all of these things by themselves. Which many creators will understand, while also knowing that those investing on their name are only piggybacking on their popularity/fame. That, and collectors are hobbyists. Hobbyists are a certain kind of investor. And investors do it for their own reasons, which also has flippers blend in with them.  |
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| Post 219 • IP flag post | ||
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| On the flip side, I knew a collector that only collected the highest grade copies when he was young. As he got older, he cashed in his immaculate bronze age collection on the highest grade Silver age keys he could obtain. The guy was literally splitting on comics that looked perfect and upgrading if there was even the slightest difference making one better. Once he'd achieved his goal, he saw me buying a raw copy of a comic in fine and had a look of disappointment on his face. Upon looking at me flip through the pages of he comic I'd bought he confessed and said that he wished he'd kept some reading copies. This was right before the CGC had started. You'd think that he might go out and buy some cheap reading copies to supplement the jaw dropping collection he'd acquired. A few years went by. CGC was gaining a foothold. I asked a retailer friend of his if he still had his awesome collection. I was informed that he got bored with it and sold it all off. I was disappointed that someone would invest that much energy and effort to get the best, and then he'd just let it all go. To my knowledge, he never bought comics again. My point is that once you reach the goal that you felt was unobtainable, the thrill of the chase might be gone. When I obtained an Amazing Fantasy #15, I lost all interest in owning Amazing Spider-Man #1-100. I think there are a lot of people who buy the grade in slabbed form, but never actually read the comic. |
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| Post 220 • IP flag post | ||
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by X51 He'd hate some of my collection. I have 0.5 comics in the slots of some of the keys that I can't afford. |
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| Post 221 • IP flag post | ||
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater He was just picky for himself. He never talked down about anyone else's purchases. I just want the comic to stay together. Someone looked at me like I was crazy when I proceeded to read Amazing Fantasy #15. I wanted to see what it would've been like to open it and read it in 1962. |
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| Post 222 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Instant_Subtitles I don't think any investors are paying $2,000 for a FF signed comic because they are convinced it will see a 1.5x increase. But what does "doing what it takes to increase their profit margins" mean? Why are they purchasing titles that are of little value, if they are hoping to "make a profit"? Quote: Originally Posted by is Of course. That's how the market works. Do you expect hobbyists/collectors to be given a discount, sometimes a substantial discount, just because they don't intend to sell...? When I first got into collecting, I couldn't buy a set of Batman #426-429...which I REALLLLY wanted...for less than $100. I had no other options. Why? Supply and demand. The good news, of course, is that 1. not all comics rise in, or even maintain, value, and 2. if one has no other options, there's still been a rather substantial gain overall on the stuff they DID buy over the last, say, 10 years or more. Quote: Originally Posted by is Sure, why not? People bought multiple copies of Spiderman #1 in 1990, hoping to piggyback on McFarlane's fame. It's the way of things. McFarlane made a LOT OF MONEY because of that fact. I would be very surprised if even 25% of creators have any interest in, or understanding of, the back issue market. It just doesn't mean anything to them. That's why you see creators mangle books...not because they're malicious, but because they just don't understand, or care to. Quote: Originally Posted by is Er...true? |
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| Post 223 • IP flag post | ||
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Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer  |
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| Post 224 • IP flag post | ||
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He sounds like a vegan who wants real mayonnaise to be vegan friendly.
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Instant_Subtitles private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown I'll focus on this part, if that is acceptable. Rule #3 (aka "Never suck your thumb" in Warren Buffet's "Top 10" list of making money is to gather advance information on anything that can be considered profitable. So if an investor decides to pay maximum value for said signed comic book, it means that they were given information that allows them to make a short-term profit.Rule #6 (aka "Limit what you borrow" is a good way to tell yourself that you are borrowing (your own) money, which could have gone towards smaller, long-term investments. It is also a good way to manage a plan that will allow the investor to make a profit that not only allows them to pay back that "loan", while making a first-time sale to a potential long-term/permanent client.And rules #7 (aka "Be persistent" , #8 (aka "Know when to quit", and #9 (aka "Assess the risks" all coincide. Which states that if the investor wants to turn that project into a long-term business, they cannot act like every second is a chance to make more than a x1.5 profit margin. They have to maintain the belief that if they play it smart, they can make that profit margin before their reason for buying the comic dies down.Which all collaborates best with both rule #1 (aka "Reinvest your profits" and rule #2 ("Be willing to be different". Because for said investor, and not flipper, the money is where the clientele are. Which will explain one of two reasons why an investor is willing to make a small margin. With the other reason being that the $1,000 profit was used into smaller ones that offer a better profit margin.  Oh, and I only recommend investing in comics that I feel are low, longer-in-wait, risks. Namely ones that are not experiments, temporary replacements, and may have a positive impact once it is repeated on TV or in movies. Signed stuff is tricky, but having them slabbed helps guarantee your investment does not experience any condition-related issues. Which is why I think piggybacks and flipping are a waste of time.  |
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| Post 225 • IP flag post | ||
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Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Which is why I think piggybacks and flipping are a waste of time. I wish more people thought this way, less competition. Oh, and eBay sucks for buying books to flip |
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| Post 226 • IP flag post | ||
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I just found out that Roger Waters (Pink Floyd fame) went from only signing albums that were personalized due to eBay sellers is back to signing other items. That being said he's requesting on his Facebook page that those that resell his autograph on eBay stay away from his shows. I guess this isn't just happening in one industry now. | ||
| Post 227 • IP flag post | ||
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I thought Warren Buffets main investment rule was to buy when everyone else is selling. Does that apply to comic books? |
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| Post 228 • IP flag post | ||
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DavidM private msg quote post Address this user | |
Rummaging through my collection I found something of interest for this thread. The 1994 NY Comic Con program.  |
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| Post 229 • IP flag post | ||
 I live in RI and Rhode Islanders eat chili with beans.
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esaravo private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @DavidM - the good old days! | ||
| Post 230 • IP flag post | ||
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