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Opinion – various cost of sigs and drawings4452

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COLLECTOR 13.26K	13.26K shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	It's 16/4 against/for respectively, or 75/25%. Not that I'm counting With all the argument, I dont think a single person changed their mind either lol; good exercise, mates
	8 years ago	Post 101 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer It's 16/4 against/for respectively, or 75/25%. Not that I'm counting With all the argument, I dont think a single person changed their mind either lol; good exercise, mates See we can have a discussion that has various points of view without the thread getting locked. Nice to know but that wasn't my intention when I started the thread. Standing in line behind people railing about something gives you an opportunity to formulate an opinion about what they are going on and on and on about. I wish I could say it made the time go by faster but it didn't.
	8 years ago	Post 102 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers. Ok. So who's a "regular fan"...? I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not sure what's ambiguous about my question. You said "I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense." You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...?
	8 years ago	Post 103 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics X51 - that is exactly what I do. These "creator" souls are "real" people also. Many a time they disrupt their personal lives to attend these "comicons" - and get grief from some who do not do what the fan asks. Quickest way to break such "ice" is to talk about stuff other than comics and/or placement of sig on a comic book without a spine bend hurting the entertainment meant to be read. Bob...when you sell a comic book for a lot more money than it sold for when published, you're taking part in the mentality that is concerned with things like spine bends. That item has value because of what it is, true, but also the condition it is in. If you only wish to discuss the entertainment value of these books, why not just sell the latest, most current reprint of that story...? And if we're going to argue that creators "disrupt their personal lives to attend these comicons", I would bring up the fact that many of these creators' entire business model is based ON attending comicons. That it is not only NOT a "disruption", but it is, in fact, the method and mode by which they exercise their creative potential, whether it's taking commissions, or networking with publishers and other creators, or just simply getting a booth and selling their own product. I don't think it's reasonable to cast creators in the light of "well, look, they're doing everyone a FAVOR by showing up..."
	8 years ago	Post 104 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by VaComicsGuy
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
When a creator says "I'm charging more because you're going to sell this", they clearly, unequivocally give a damn about what we're doing with the book after getting it signed.

I've been to hundreds of cons and never heard an artist say that. I have heard them say they will charge more if it's getting slabbed but those are different statements.

That's not a valid counterargument. Just because you have never heard something doesn't therefore mean it's not been said.

Have you done signature series on a regular basis?

I have been directly involved in the CGC Signature Series program, mostly as a witness, for nine years. In that time, I have witnessed thousands of books. I can tell you who some of the creators are who have said this, or words to this effect:

Len Wein
Marv Wolfman
Neal Adams
Frank Miller
Adam Hughes
Jim Starlin
Nike Zeck (mostly because of Renee Witterstaetter)
Mike Golden (again, Renee)
Renee Witterstaetter
Rob Liefeld
Todd McFarlane
Chris Claremont

...and that's just off the top of my head. There's more. These creators all charge a "slabbing surcharge" specifically because they think that everyone slabbing books with their sigs are doing so "to make money."

Finally, even if all of that weren't the case, basic reason says that if they're charging more because it's being slabbed for a specific reason. That reason? Because they think you're going to sell it.

That's neither here nor there, however, because plenty of creators have stated that, upfront, without any qualms whatsoever, and I can produce a bevy of witnesses who have heard the exact same thing.

So, then, it goes back to the statement: "When a creator says "I'm charging more because you're going to sell this", they clearly, unequivocally give a damn about what we're doing with the book after getting it signed."

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
but are doing it because they believe...this isn't supposition, they have told people, to their faces, that this is why they're doing it.
Again, never head a creator say that,

Again, not a valid counterargument. I've never seen an eclipse in person; does that mean they don't exist? Not trying to be snide, simply trying to point out that counterarguments have to be rational.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
but even if some do, how does that apply to all creators? DO they all believe the same thing? You are creating a blanket statement and applying it to all creators that might charge different amounts.

Not true. I make a concerted effort to avoid blanket statements, and here's why that statement isn't one:

It doesn't apply to all creators. It only applies to those creators who charge a HIGHER PRICE for people who are slabbing, or who they THINK might be slabbing.

I mean, it's a bit of a silly side discussion we've gotten into; why ELSE do you think creators would charge a slab surcharge, other than "because they think someone might be profiting off their signature"...? If you can give me a plausible explanation for the surcharge that does NOT have to do with creators thinking this, please, by all means, share it. I'm willing to listen.

(as an aside, I know some people complain about it, but it's better to preserve the entire context of what others have said, so the chain of discussion doesn't get confusing.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
in fact, the painter is actually doing MORE work...far more work...than just signing a book, which requires very little effort in the grand scheme of things.
You are aware that painters create estimates that are essentially them telling you what they charge for the task you want performed, right?

Yes, I'm very much aware of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
Just like the artist tells you what he charges for the task you want performed. Nice that you get to be dismissive of the artists "very little effort. Here's the thing, if I want a Neal Adams autograph, I have only one source. If I want my house painted, I have thousands. Supply and demand. It might be "very little effort" for Neal, but fact is, he has the NA autograph market as a tiny little monopoly.

Ok, let's not take the coocoo train into silly town and call me "dismissive" for saying a signature is "very little effort."

Are you seriously suggesting that SIGNING YOUR NAME is anything beyond "very little effort"...?

Come on. People sign their names virtually every day. Some people sign their names multiple times a day. It's one of the least taxing things people do on a regular basis. It's the definition of "very little effort." That's not being "dismissive"...(interesting perspective, though!)...that's just calling something what it really is: very little effort.

You're arguing against a position that no one is taking: namely, that creators can't charge whatever they want for their signatures. No one is arguing in favor of that position. You're 100% correct, the only source for Neal Adams signatures is Neal Adams. But this isn't about that, and never has been. The issue is charging a SURCHARGE for people they know, or think, are going to be slabbing the book.

If Neal wants to charge $10,000,000 for his signature, God bless him, more power to him!

But Neal isn't the only creator in town, and if Neal wants to charge $10,000,000, he will get precisely zero customers for his signature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Again: the book doesn't belong to the creator. The house doesn't belong to the painter. If I'm painting for a flipper, what business is that of mine? I charge this price, he/she accepts, done deal. What happens to the house afterwards is none of my concern.
Absolutely. But, what happens if I ask the painter to do some more work? Even if it requires "very little effort" Think he'll paint the hall for free if I tell him, its very little effort? Of course not.

Agreed completely. And no one is arguing otherwise. No one is saying anyone should do anything for free, "very little effort" or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
Asking for a signature is asking the artist for MORE and the interesting part is he had no deal, contract or agreement with us in the first place. I'm going to try that out. A painter agrees to paint my neighbors house. They eventually sell it to me. I then go to the painter and tell him to do some touch ups for free. Its only very little effort. He should agree. Right? I'll just explain to him how he should be grateful to all the architects, builders, plumbers, realtors and contractors. Kind of a ridiculous argument isn't it? But I'm sure you will tell me why comics are different.

Again...you're arguing against a position that no one is arguing in favor of.

No one said anyone should do anything for free (and your examples here is not logically consistent, but I don't know if hashing out how would help anyone.)

(Oh, what the hell, I'll give it a shot.)

Architects, plumbers, realtors, and contractors have nothing to do with the painter getting his artistic vision out to the public when they are hired by home owners to paint their houses.

A painter does not need any of those people to have a successful house painting business.

Publishers PUBLISH the comic books that contain the creators' artistic vision.

Printers PRINT the comics that contain the creators' artistic vision.

Distributors DISTRIBUTE the comics that contain the creators' artistic vision.

Retailers SELL the comics that contain the creators' artistic vision.

Without ALL of those people, in one form or another, the creators' artistic vision DOES NOT get to the public.

So yes, the creators should be VERY grateful that such a system is in place.

Even Dave Sim couldn't print, distribute, or sell his comics by himself, although he might have, if he could!

So, yes, the argument that "I'll just explain to him how he should be grateful to all the architects, builders, plumbers, realtors and contractors" is, in fact, completely ridiculous, as you say, and yes, that's why comics are different.

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Originally Posted by VCG
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
. . . isn't a valid argument in this discussion.
I missed the thread rules and guidelines on what is and isn't valid but you say i'm wrong, so I must be.

Again, when you cut out context, these out of context statements lose their meaning. You have removed some important context clues which gives that statement its meaning. Here's the statement again, back in its context:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DB
...nobody has said that the signature "isn't worth the cost." As you rightly point out, economic reasons aren't the only reasons to get books signed. I have paid John Totleben well over a thousand dollars...$1500 or so, I think...to get about 150 books signed by him over the years. A good chunk of those signatures aren't worth the $10 per book he charged...FINANCIALLY. However, for me, they're worth every penny.

But that's not the position that is being argued in this discussion, of course. The argument is "is it financially worth it", and the clear answer, much of the time, is a solid "no." We're talking about business, not "being a fan."

So, arguing that there are "hundreds of people who think it's worth the cost" isn't a valid argument in this discussion. That's not in dispute. Of course there are.

...the argument isn't invalid because you don't have the right or ability to make it. You have the right and ability to make any argument you want, valid or invalid, and the thread "rules and guidelines" allow you to do so. That's not what is meant by "invalid argument in this discussion" means.

It means that you're arguing for a position which isn't in dispute; namely, that "hundreds of people think it's worth the cost." That is not in dispute. Let me say it again: that is not in dispute. There are, indeed, OFTEN (not always!) hundreds of people who think it's worth the cost. No dispute there. So, arguing that point, as if there were people arguing AGAINST that point, isn't a valid argument in THIS discussion, because no one is disputing that.

No one is disputing that lots of people pay those prices, whatever "those prices" means. However, there are NOT "hundreds of people", in my experience, that are SLABBING books on any given day, for any given creator. I've spent entire days running around artist alley, and have seen perhaps a dozen, maybe two dozen, maybe three dozen people who are SLABBING, as opposed to just getting signatures without slabbing (see below for more explanation.)

I would be VERY surprised if, for example, Jae Lee had more than 30 people who specifically went to see him FOR Sig Series at SDCC...the biggest con of the year. Very surprised.

You have to separate and make a distinction between those who suck up the cost...like a trip to Disneyland...because it's worth it to them PERSONALLY...which is NOT the discussion here...vs. people who are trying to make it a BUSINESS venture...which IS the discussion.

In other words, there are people who say "This copy of Thor #385 that Stan wrote is a rag, but it was the first comic I ever bought, and even though I know it's not really "worth" it to pay $160 for him to sign it on the aftermarket, I'm going to pay to have it signed and slabbed, because it's worth it to ME, for personal reasons." - This is not the discussion here.

And there are people who say "This copy of ASM #25 I have is roughly a 9.0, 9.2. I need to decide if the risk is worth the cost, because I'm getting this signed and slabbed to sell. If it comes back an 8.0, it will be a loss for me." - This is the discussion.

Sorry to belabor the point, but it was missed initially.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
OR, or, and I just might be totally nuts here, but maybe you are trying to cherry pick what you want to discuss and dismissing what others have to say by saying, "yeah. but no." Like when you said, . . .

I agree that you are totally nuts here, for the reasons laid out directly above. You're arguing in favor of an argument...that "hundreds of people think it's worth the cost", so creators can charge what they want, because it DOES add value for the people willing to pay it"...that no one is arguing in opposition to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Your arguments are from emotion, rather than reason. To "sit quietly by while we watched someone making money off our creation, and being told we should be grateful", as if the creator is being taken advantage of in some way, and the creator has a right to feel angry. That's not the case.

I'll give you $ 1000 if you can show me where I said the creators were being taken advantage of....or where I said the creator has a right to be angry (or even not) I didn't say either of those things and you know it but hey it's alot more fun to create drama out of nowhere isn't it?

What are the words "How many of us would really create something and then sit by quietly while we watched (1) a flipper (2) an AW (in some cases but not all) and (3) a grading company make money off of our creation, while being told we should be grateful?" supposed to evoke/imply/suggest...?

Serious question, there. You used emotional language: "sit quietly by", "being told we should be grateful"...to evoke a specific idea, mood, or concept, did you not...?

If so, what OTHER interpretation of that statement right there is there to be made, aside from "cue the violins, someone's being taken advantage of."...? Serious question, here. I'm willing to listen if you meant something else.

I don't think you're being very honest, here, with yourself or everyone else. I can't help but notice that you're quick to say "that's not what I said! You're just trying to create drama!", but then don't go on to explain what you DID mean. If I interpreted your comment incorrectly, why not explain how...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
There are NOT, however, "hundreds of people hoping the books grade out the way they need them to, so the signature is worth the cost." That IS the argument.
REALLY? SERIOUSLY? so all of those people selling on Ebay, MCS, Here and on a ton of other sites arent' hoping their books grade out to make it worthwhile? Someone better tell them. I don't have time to get to all of them but I'll do what I can.

You have misinterpreted my statement. My apologies. Let me re-word it for you, to make my meaning clearer: There are NOT, however, "hundreds of people hoping the books grade out the way they need them to, so the signature is worth the cost"...there are about two or three dozen of those people. I know who they are, because I've worked with and along side of them for nearly a decade. It's not a large group of people. Yes, sure, there are certainly a lot of people who do one-offs or two-offs...but not people who do it on a regular basis.

My statement didn't mean to say there were NO people doing this; and, frankly, the context of the whole conversation should have made that abundantly clear, because there are a handful of people who have stated they DO do this, myself included.

Hopefully that clears that up. Again, my apologies for not making that as clear as can possibly be (and it's a great example, of how easy it is to misunderstand others in the written word, why benefit of the doubt is CRITICAL in honest, open dialogue, and why "a lot of words" are often necessary.)

8 years ago

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	DocBrown, Valid points. Most every one you made I agree with. That said, of course what ever minor blemish is on any given comic book goes in to what ever grading criteria is being sought and thought of in the establishment of any given price on any particular comic book. Having set up at over a thousand comicons nationwide and attended Lucca and Rome in Italy as well as Angouleme in France from June 1967 thru April 2012 (first Wondercon LA was my last set up)it has been five years away from the booth gig in comics selling mode. That said, the atmosphere at larger shows these days is not a fun experience in the main any more for many. Older collectors (whom I cater to) who read their books is who I aim what ever feeble marketing campaigns I conduct any more. That is mainly running 3.5 VG- thru 7.0 FVF as well as over a couple thousand NM 1970s thru mid 80s in my eBay store for those who slab that stuff up. Heck, if any thing, I see my humble self as a "pioneer" in speculating on brand new comics beginning in 1968 with the #1 Marvel title expansions (CA 100, IM 1, DS 169 etc etc) buying 200 each ordered from Omaha ID, then kicking em back for a few months then offering those as centers out at 25 cents each. I quickly learned back in high school I could get 50 cents each for those purple Iron Man #1 issues. By 1970 bought 600 Conan #1 for cover price. Those were a buck each six months later. By late 1972 found a guy in NY/NJ area who had unopened 300 boxed case lots of Conan #1 for $600. Bought five cases and put em out at $5 each or 5 for $20. Swamp Thing #1 debuted the week we opened that first Comics & Comix location in Berkeley CAlif Aug 1972. By late 70s was pre-ordering buying 10,000 each month of the Byrne X Men beginning with #114. By the time GI Joe #1 was published bought 35,000 then with #2 bought 17,000 - and on it goes across the spectrum That all said - simply a microcosm of the comics slice of life - the market dictates what people will pay - and what people will attempt to charge. Those in to the slab game sealing up comics thinking in terms of "value" need only look as far as AmWay, perchance look at Franklin Mint marketing ploys. This witness Protection Program will not last. History says so,and the silly sad lost souls getting hung up in 9.4 9.6 9.8 and fabled miracle land of 9.9 and the Big Ten Oh will be in for a rude shock awakening. All one needs for "protection" on comics early 1950s on up a Mylite #2 Silver Gold with a Gold size backer board to change out every couple years - and one is set for archival storage (plus temp humidity controls, etc etc yada yada) I am sure there are some artists who think they need to play the comicon roulette wheel circle as a biz model. That too will fade away. When I get a comic book signed, I get it on the inside first page - never the cover - the inks run on the slick paper over time. And here is a fun drawing Rand Holmes put in my book
	8 years ago	Post 106 • IP flag post

He sounds like a vegan who wants real mayonnaise to be vegan friendly. 1.53K	1.53K Instant_Subtitles private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Don't mind me. I'm just showing a video of popcorn being made while you guys argue over the benefits, uses, and disuses of modern society's own barter system.
	8 years ago	Post 107 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	I do not see any one arguing here, rather, a discussion on various views of what constitutes a working business model in today's environs. The linkage between reader fans of the comics is more important to many of the comics creator friends I know and communicate with. Same with the older collectors I buy and sell with who view the slab trip thru rose colored lenses at times. Other creators seem to have incorporated the Sig Witness Protection Slab gig in to their working model seeking to make perceived short term bigger bucks at the comicons all over the place these days of days. The SS gig guys seem to be more than a couple dozen but maybe they are also master promo guys who make a louder noise beyond their actual true numbers of players. I think it is more than a couple dozen based off what i see offered out for sale on the net but what do I know? Am just a 65 year "old school" dealer of fantasy stuff dating back well over a century. I am honest up front I do not understand this "new school" market place which is built on false foundation as commodity rather than entertainment value. Can you imagine buying sealed DVD movies and/or Music CDs and never opening the package? Makes as about much sense on brand "new" comics which is what some of these creator guys getting wrung thru the wringer by stating they do not wish to encourage such behavior by charging more to such participants of the "flipper" market. Just my humble opine. I am always eager to learn other perspectives regarding long term health growth in this biz.
	8 years ago	Post 108 • IP flag post

past performance is no guarantee of future actions. 31.7K	31.7K KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Wait!! are we supposed to be reading the books?? I thought it was all about the variant cover art! Seriously though, 43 and read almost every book (might leave the odd 1950's space book unread and buy the collected hardcover) I see your wizard and raise you a space Cerebus!!
	8 years ago	Post 109 • IP flag post

He sounds like a vegan who wants real mayonnaise to be vegan friendly. 1.53K	1.53K Instant_Subtitles private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@BLBcomics The whole argument is based on something others are doing, not you. We both share a brief period of collecting anything did not require eBay, or even the internet. But the whole argument is if an autograph should be seen as a means to ask for more money. One side says "Yes", with ties to artists and writers turning it into a paid service. And the other side says "No" just because it is an optional paid service and should not be added to the current value of the comic. And neither side agreeing that said increment is done for a specific group of potential buyers. And you are posting things that make me wish I had my old photos. As well as feel what you have experienced is up there with my late Uncle's music career.
	8 years ago	Post 110 • IP flag post

past performance is no guarantee of future actions. 31.7K	31.7K KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Quote: Originally Posted by Instant_Subtitles @BLBcomics The whole argument is based on something others are doing, not you. We both share a brief period of collecting anything did not require eBay, or even the internet. But the whole argument is if an autograph should be seen as a means to ask for more money. One side says "Yes", with ties to artists and writers turning it into a paid service. And the other side says "No" just because it is an optional paid service and should not be added to the current value of the comic. And neither side agreeing that said increment is done for a specific group of potential buyers. And you are posting things that make me wish I had my old photos. As well as feel what you have experienced is up there with my late Uncle's music career. Second that @BLBcomics would love to see more of your posts rather than the pissing match!! Moldoff, Anderson, Tuska!!!!
	8 years ago	Post 111 • IP flag post

I bought a meat grinder on amazon for $60 and it's changed my life. 27.13K	27.13K kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	@BLBcomics I love the Alex Ross sketch . Bravo. I love your sketchbook.
	8 years ago	Post 112 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Here is one of two Craig Flessel drawings in the book plus friend Jim Steranko voicing friendship with daughter Katy. Jim contributed drawings and other signed artifacts to Katy's medical surgery benefit friend Russ Cochran held back in Feb 2016. There are a couple hundred pages to go. Have to scan more.
	8 years ago	Post 113 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.42K	30.42K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Limit the number of books or don't limit the number of books. Sign books or don't sign books. Charge for signatures or don't charge for signatures. While I like free signatures as much as the next guy I do not have a problem with an artist charging for their signature. There is nothing wrong with selling a comic book for a profit. If there was, the artists and the writers should look in the mirror for taking blood money from their evil employers. Collector's may intend to keep the books but bills tend to pile up and "collections" get sold all of the time, especially by the loved ones of collectors who have passed on. While artists might have a warm and fuzzy idea in their head of who is a "true collector" and worthy of a free signature those unworthy flippers and speculators have probably been following the artist longer. The evil sellers will also get the artist's signatures out to a wider audience who will not be at the cons. Instead of worrying about what will happen to someone else's book after it has been signed, artists and writers should appreciate that everyone who is spending money to attend a show and waiting on line is a fan of their work instead of worrying about ulterior motives. Graded or not the decision to sell the signed books is not theirs to make.
	8 years ago	Post 114 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos Limit the number of books or don't limit the number of books. Sign books or don't sign books. Charge for signatures or don't charge for signatures. While I like free signatures as much as the next guy I do not have a problem with an artist charging for their signature. There is nothing wrong with selling a comic book for a profit. If there was, the artists and the writers should look in the mirror for taking blood money from their evil employers. Collector's may intend to keep the books but bills tend to pile up and "collections" get sold all of the time, especially by the loved ones of collectors who have passed on. While artists might have a warm and fuzzy idea in their head of who is a "true collector" and worthy of a free signature those unworthy flippers and speculators have probably been following the artist longer. The evil sellers will also get the artist's signatures out to a wider audience who will not be at the cons. Instead of worrying about what will happen to someone else's book after it has been signed, artists and writers should appreciate that everyone who is spending money to attend a show and waiting on line is a fan of their work instead of worrying about ulterior motives. Graded or not the decision to sell the signed books is not theirs to make. As far as I'm concerned, artists can charge whatever they want for whatever reason they want and the market will decide. Good for the ones who're savvy enough to realize their signature can sometimes hold more than sentimental value for the person getting the book signed. The argument that they've been paid for the work already so they shouldn't care is spurious at best. A lot of the older school guys did not make great money initially for their work...some might argue "so what? They knew the deal going in, why should I weep for the poor artist"? I imagine people like this probably think that DC should never have succumbed to the moral pressure they were receiving to take care of Siegel and Shuster who were living nearly destitute. "So what? They got paid for their work, they should've made a better deal like Bob Kane did"...there are "people" ( I use that term lightly ) who actually believe this. People like that might as well stand on the Hero Initiative table at the next con they attend and take a huge dump.
	8 years ago	Post 115 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan510

As far as I'm concerned, artists can charge whatever they want for whatever reason they want and the market will decide. Good for the ones who're savvy enough to realize their signature can sometimes hold more than sentimental value for the person getting the book signed.

Remember that comic book collectors act like addicts so the flippers should be able to manipulate the market and get the return on investment they seek, not matter how large. We are addicts and have to have it. No matter the price that the flippers want to charge for the hottest, autographed, slabbed book out there we will pay it.

This isn't the really real world.

Thus, the whole discussion has been an exercise in futility for those of us who want the free market to decide where the dollars go and not harsh the mellow of a creator who wants a bigger taste of the pie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan510

The argument that they've been paid for the work already so they shouldn't care is spurious at best. A lot of the older school guys did not make great money initially for their work...some might argue "so what? They knew the deal going in, why should I weep for the poor artist"? I imagine people like this probably think that DC should never have succumbed to the moral pressure they were receiving to take care of Siegel and Shuster who were living nearly destitute. "So what? They got paid for their work, they should've made a better deal like Bob Kane did"...there are "people" ( I use that term lightly ) who actually believe this.

People like that might as well stand on the Hero Initiative table at the next con they attend and take a huge dump.

Quoted for greatness. Take a huge dump, that's funny!

8 years ago

Collector 135	135 Nino_013 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Looking at this example, the final price barely cover the cost of the grading fees let alone the cost of the signatures...
	8 years ago	Post 117 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.42K	30.42K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@Nino_013 Correctamundo! Guess which artists the flipper avoids when buying books next time.
	8 years ago	Post 118 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	I bet some fan is happy with their purchase though.
	8 years ago	Post 119 • IP flag post

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Nino_013 Looking at this example, the final price barely cover the cost of the grading fees let alone the cost of the signatures... This is part of doing homework. If you're a flipper it has to make sense, and low risk.
	8 years ago	Post 120 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nino_013
Looking at this example, the final price barely cover the cost of the grading fees let alone the cost of the signatures...

Maybe someone bought it to flip it. At that price you'd do OK just using it as part of a trade at a Con.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan510
I bet some fan is happy with their purchase though.

For sure, for sure and it happened in the really real world.

8 years ago

I bought a meat grinder on amazon for $60 and it's changed my life. 27.13K	27.13K kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	T-BIRD!
	8 years ago	Post 122 • IP flag post

I bought a meat grinder on amazon for $60 and it's changed my life. 27.13K	27.13K kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Oh man, I'd be pissed if that was my comic book that sold that low - just the signatures alone on that master race book are like $250!
	8 years ago	Post 123 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan510
Quote:
Originally Posted by drchaos
Limit the number of books or don't limit the number of books. Sign books or don't sign books. Charge for signatures or don't charge for signatures. While I like free signatures as much as the next guy I do not have a problem with an artist charging for their signature.

There is nothing wrong with selling a comic book for a profit. If there was, the artists and the writers should look in the mirror for taking blood money from their evil employers.

Collector's may intend to keep the books but bills tend to pile up and "collections" get sold all of the time, especially by the loved ones of collectors who have passed on.

While artists might have a warm and fuzzy idea in their head of who is a "true collector" and worthy of a free signature those unworthy flippers and speculators have probably been following the artist longer. The evil sellers will also get the artist's signatures out to a wider audience who will not be at the cons.

Instead of worrying about what will happen to someone else's book after it has been signed, artists and writers should appreciate that everyone who is spending money to attend a show and waiting on line is a fan of their work instead of worrying about ulterior motives. Graded or not the decision to sell the signed books is not theirs to make.

As far as I'm concerned, artists can charge whatever they want for whatever reason they want and the market will decide. Good for the ones who're savvy enough to realize their signature can sometimes hold more than sentimental value for the person getting the book signed.

I think everyone posting in this discussion agrees with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by logan510
The argument that they've been paid for the work already so they shouldn't care is spurious at best.

Since you can't resist responding to or interacting with me, I'll give you a direct reply (rather than an "oblique" reference, dancing around each other, which is silly, and not really fooling anyone paying attention.)

I'm pretty sure that no one's made this argument in this entire discussion. If no one's made this argument...and indeed, it is completely spurious...then it's a red herring, designed to muddy the discussion.

There have been a lot of arguments made...some good, some not so much...so why bring up arguments that haven't been made by anyone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by logan
A lot of the older school guys did not make great money initially for their work...some might argue "so what? They knew the deal going in, why should I weep for the poor artist"?

That is correct, but it's also irrelevant to the discussion. What someone else has or has not made is none of my concern, and should not be the foundation for any decision I make. In the exact same way, what I have made or might make is no one else's concern, and should not be the foundation for any decision others make.

You know who DID make money, or at least had the creative freedom to express themselves as they saw fit, among the "older school guys"...? The ones who took the risk. The ones who ventured out on their own (Hi Wally Wood! Hi Neal Adams! Hi Barry Smith!) The ones who traded security for risk.

Neal Adams didn't like how Marvel and DC were treating creators, so you know what he did...?

He founded his own publishing company.

He could probably have worked at Marvel and DC for his entire career...he was, after all, the very first "hot artist"...but he traded security for risk, and did it HIS way. Was Continuity a smash success...? Not really. And it really demonstrates the value of working for a large corporation.

But it was HIS. It rose or fell based on HIM, not what some corporate suit wanted.

So, how did that turn out for him...? Anyone going to see any films made by Continuity Studios this weekend...? Selling any Continuity Comics back issues featuring their most famous creation...? Putting any Continuity Toys, Inc. action figures on their shelves...?

How about Aardvark-Vanaheim?

Pacific Comics?

Eclipse?

First?

Capital?

Chaos?

Aircel?

Arrow?

How's EC doing these days?

Tower Comics?

Charlton?

Gold Key? (ok, that one's a sorta gimme.)

Valiant?

Acclaim?

Publishing is a RISKY business. If one chooses security over risk, that's a perfectly valid choice...but it IS a CHOICE, and there are consequences for all the choices we make. Neal put HIS money where his mouth is, and founded his own publishing company. It didn't work, but you MUST respect the man for being willing to trade security for risk.

And, there are also instances where it was a smashing success: Image. And an enduring success, if not smashing: Dark Horse. And there are others, who have carved out their niches in the industry, and I applaud each and every one of them for daring to do it on their own, on their terms. But the successes are few, very few, and very far between. This industry is LITTERED with failures, up and down, because PUBLISHING IS RISKY.

Quote:

Originally Posted by logan
I imagine people like this probably think that DC should never have succumbed to the moral pressure they were receiving to take care of Siegel and Shuster who were living nearly destitute.

This is a terrible argument. It's a harsh example of what happens when people argue from emotion, rather than reason. DC never should have succumbed to the "moral pressure" they were receiving from a bunch of busybody "do-gooders" (we call them "Social Justice Warriors" these days.)

It set a TERRIBLE precedent that anyone could come back, long after the fact, and renegotiate the past, which put DC Comics at great and unacceptable risk, all because of political correctness and pressure.

First off, WERE Siegel and Shuster "living nearly destitute"...? If so, why...?

Second, what happened to the money they made during their working careers?

Third, what was preventing them from negotiating better terms PRIOR TO selling the rights to Superman?

"That's none of your business!" CORRECT! It's no one's business but THEIRS...until they MAKE it everyone else's business by going public about it.

It's the same "Won't someone PLEASE think of the CHILDREN!!" emotional appeal that people use to guilt others into doing what THEY, themselves, feel guilty about. Guilt loves company. "Siegel and Shuster got the shaft! I feel guilty about that! I shouldn't be supporting DC, or buying Superman. I know! I'll make OTHER PEOPLE feel guilty, so I won't feel as much guilt!"

What was stopping anyone who pressured DC from helping Siegel and Shuster personally? Maybe some of them did, but I'd be willing to bet that a lot of them did not. What's stopping them from donating to Siegel and Shuster's estate now?

Nothing.

"But DC has made billions off of Superman!!"

True! And it's easy to look back over early 80 years and say that. But in 1937, when Harry Donenfeld was considering whether to publish a new "action" comic book, he was not thrilled...to put it mildly...with the fantastic aspects of this new "superman." He thought that such a ridiculous character would be roundly rejected by the public.

And he might not have been wrong.

Detective Comics, Inc. took the risk by publishing the work of these unknown young artists. Siegel and Shuster had been shopping Superman around for quite some time before DC decided to publish him.

AND...the fact that Superman has been shepherded over the ensuing decades by a multi-national corporation has ensured that the character remains a vibrant part of the social fabric of America and the world. That is something Siegel and Shuster themselves could not do, because no individual, no matter how smart, or powerful, or rich, can do that. It takes a corporation to do that. The reason Superman is STILL IN the public eye isn't because of Siegel and Shuster...it's because of DC and their legion of creators handling the character long after Siegel and Shuster left IN THE FORTIES.

Superman is just as much a part of the human consciousness because of John Byrne and Curt Swan and Ed McGuinness and Julius Schwartz and Fred Ray and Jack Burnley and Elliot S! Maggin and George Reeves and Christopher Reeve and Richard Donner.

Are there hues and cries for THOSE people to receive further compensation from DC...?

Again: Siegel and Shuster traded RISK for SECURITY. Playing on people's emotions, trying to guilt them into feeling sorry for people who may or may not have made wise decisions with their careers or money, is manipulative.

And the immutable law of economics is simple: those who take the risk are the ones who earn the reward, if it comes. Siegel and Shuster traded risk for security. There was quite literally nothing preventing them from publishing Superman THEMSELVES, especially in that era when a new publisher sprang up every other week, or negotiating a better deal. Nothing at all.

After all...Bob Kane did it.

And anyone suggesting that people are evil or bad for saying this are, in fact, themselves touting their moral superiority over others. There is nothing stopping anyone...nothing at all...from putting their money where their mouth is and donating to the Siegel or Shuster estates EVEN NOW, if one REALLY feels THAT strongly about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by logan510
"So what? They got paid for their work, they should've made a better deal like Bob Kane did"...there are "people" ( I use that term lightly ) who actually believe this.

I'm not sure what you mean by "people", and why you use that term lightly. What else would they be? Cats? Horses? Aliens?

Quote:

Originally Posted by logan510
People like that might as well stand on the Hero Initiative table at the next con they attend and take a huge dump.

I believe that the kids today call this "virtue signalling."

8 years ago

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics Quote: Originally Posted by Nino_013 Looking at this example, the final price barely cover the cost of the grading fees let alone the cost of the signatures... This is part of doing homework. If you're a flipper it has to make sense, and low risk. Yes, but the question I want to ask is "do you still think everyone slabbing is making fat cash off of your signatures?" Some of them...not all, for sure...but some of them would look at that and say "DAMMMNNNN! I feel a little guilty charging that guy $100 for my sig!" ...and that's where the entire argument rests, right there. The hope that some of these guys will say "DAMMMMNNN!! That seller got SMASHED! I thought my sig was worth a LOT more than that!" Because maybe that will moderate some of this. Maybe it won't. And if it doesn't, and there are still hundreds of people willing to line up and fork over the $$$, God love 'em, more power to them, and I wish them the best. If people are willing to shell it out, and the creator doesn't think slabbing is just a vehicle for $$$$, great. But there's a flip side to everything, and if there comes a time...which, by the way, has already happened...when the fickle populace moves on, where will the creators be? There were times when, yes, Frank Miller was considered a washed-up has-been, and had very few diehard fans. Same with Jim Lee. Same with John Byrne. Same with Todd McFarlane. Especially same with Rob Liefeld. Stan's a special case, but Stan has always been a special case, and there will always be exceptions to the rule. It has happened before...it will happen again. And I hope that there are still fans around when it does. We'll see!
	8 years ago	Post 125 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	And, of course, that business "model" obviously isn't sustainable. Eventually, "flippers" will be forced to move on to something else, and you know who loses in that scenario...? No, not the flippers. The collectors and the creators. The collectors, because there will no longer be a way to get books signed that they really want, other than doing the heavy work themselves, which many people can't do. So, someone may NEVER get that Batman #405 signed by Miller, because it's simply not cost-effective for anyone to actually do the work of making that happen. And the creators, because it's better to make $100 than $0 while trying to make $500. As well...creators stifle their own legacy. As should be obvious, a lot of them are dying. Once that happens, no more sigs. There are fewer Al Plastino SS out there than there otherwise might be, because of the Plastino incident. And that's a shame, because there are fewer examples of books signed by Plastino available for people to own, to have a tangible connection to him. And he's gone. Same with Len, same with Bernie, same with Darwyn, same with Turner, etc etc etc.
	8 years ago	Post 126 • IP flag post

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics Quote: Originally Posted by Nino_013 Looking at this example, the final price barely cover the cost of the grading fees let alone the cost of the signatures... This is part of doing homework. If you're a flipper it has to make sense, and low risk. Yes, but the question I want to ask is "do you still think everyone slabbing is making fat cash off of your signatures?" I don't really care. The important thing to me is that I make cash when I'm flipping a book, and if the price of the creators signature will increase my ROI, then I'll gladly pay it. If a $20 investment yields me an extra $50 I'm going to smile all the way to the bank.
	8 years ago	Post 127 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Logan510 I bet some fan is happy with their purchase though. I did a quick run through on Miller signed and slabbed stuff on eBay. Man, talk about a market that has its ups and downs. The down point looks to be now. People have picked up Miller signed slabbed comics for $100.00 - $75.00 with all sorts of other signatures. Fingers crossed that the comic market as a whole will dip. Might make a Happy New Year for those of us seeking to buy things right after Christmas when people need cash to pay off bills and pay taxes.
	8 years ago	Post 128 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nino_013
Looking at this example, the final price barely cover the cost of the grading fees let alone the cost of the signatures...

This is part of doing homework. If you're a flipper it has to make sense, and low risk.

Yes, but the question I want to ask is "do you still think everyone slabbing is making fat cash off of your signatures?"

I don't really care.

Noted. As stated, that was the question *I* want to ask, not what YOU should ask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ
The important thing to me is that I make cash when I'm flipping a book, and if the price of the creators signature will increase my ROI, then I'll gladly pay it.

If a $20 investment yields me an extra $50 I'm going to smile all the way to the bank.

Technically, the price of the signature DECREASES your ROI, but I understand your point.

And what happens when every creator has priced his or her signature out of your ability to "ROI"...? Or anyone's? Because, as the above example clearly shows, it's already been happening for a long time. Do you think there will always be SOME comic that will give you some sort of "ROI" by getting it signed...? Or does that not factor into your business model, and you'll just abandon SS entirely as soon as you "can't make money with it"...?

I get that you don't care. Noted.

But what about the people who do? Do they not count?

Because, oddly enough (which isn't odd at all), motivated by self-interest, I want to see OTHER PEOPLE get what makes them happy, too. And if everyone is priced out, that's going to end...even for you.

I am part of the SS program because I enjoy it. I get a thrill out of meeting creators and having them sign my books. And yes, I do, in fact, sell many of them to pay for the rest.

I'm not making any judgments about your business model, unlike many doing the same to "the dirty flippers", and if you don't care about SS as a "thing", there is nothing wrong with that. The industry needs people like you, too. But, if SS is not your thing, and you are motivated by nothing but profit...why on EARTH are you arguing IN FAVOR of creators charging more for slabbing than for non-slabbing?

It's a bit backwards. You are arguing against your interests. And it doesn't take a doctorate in Econ to know that, does it?

8 years ago

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics Quote: Originally Posted by Nino_013 Looking at this example, the final price barely cover the cost of the grading fees let alone the cost of the signatures... This is part of doing homework. If you're a flipper it has to make sense, and low risk. Yes, but the question I want to ask is "do you still think everyone slabbing is making fat cash off of your signatures?" I don't really care. Noted. As stated, that was the question I want to ask, not what YOU should ask. Quote: Originally Posted by occ The important thing to me is that I make cash when I'm flipping a book, and if the price of the creators signature will increase my ROI, then I'll gladly pay it. If a $20 investment yields me an extra $50 I'm going to smile all the way to the bank. Technically, the price of the signature DECREASES your ROI, but I understand your point. And what happens when every creator has priced his or her signature out of your ability to "ROI"...? Or anyone's? Because, as the above example clearly shows, it's already been happening for a long time. Do you think there will always be SOME comic that will give you some sort of "ROI" by getting it signed...? Or does that not factor into your business model, and you'll just abandon SS entirely as soon as you "can't make money with it"...? I get that you don't care. Noted. But what about the people who do? Do they not count? Because, oddly enough (which isn't odd at all), motivated by self-interest, I want to see OTHER PEOPLE get what makes them happy, too. And if everyone is priced out, that's going to end...even for you. I'll never get out of it completely. There are some signatures that aren't worth the effort, Stan Lee, Frank Miller and Todd McFarlane being three of them. There will always be deals to be had, and as I stated earlier, not everyone is paying the same price for witnessed sigs. As a collector, I have no problem getting Todd McFarlane or Jim Lee to sign a book for me for free and have it red labeled. It's for my personal collection and I'm the one who has to be satisfied, not an unknown faceless customer on eBay. If it's a creator who only charges and doesn't offer free signatures, then I may pass depending on the price and how bad I want it.
	8 years ago	Post 130 • IP flag post

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