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Opinion – various cost of sigs and drawings4452

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I bought a meat grinder on amazon for $60 and it's changed my life. 27.13K	27.13K kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	It's funny when you think about it. The creators are paid the first go around with the published art. We are trying to create our own "hustle" by selling the art signed or sketched. We are getting paid for our logistical services of running around, getting the book signed, sketched, graded...we should get paid too, right? Middle man or not, we get the book to it's intended destination either way.
	8 years ago	Post 76 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @BigRedOne1944 Your dislike for capitalism or flippers does not make them wrong. While the hobby needs collector's who want to keep the books, one can only store so many. Selling some books clears room to buy others. Middle men including flippers (such as your local comic shop) do add some value to the hobby whether you like them or not. Lots of people provide a valuable service to others by doing the heavy lifting. It's a piece of cake to go to eBay and pay $199 for a STAR WARS #3 CGC SS 9.8 * JASON AARON * KENOBI ACTION FIGURE VARIANT * MARVEL...or less, JJ considers offers...than it is to do the heavy lifting of obtaining that book with this sig in 9.8 condition. What is the value of one's time worth? If you can't, or don't want to, get your books signed for yourself, there are people who provide this service, which has value to you. Not only that, there are lots of these so-called "flippers" who are, themselves, collectors...just like store owners...who do this so they can afford to build their collection. When you think about it, it's just silly. A creator puts his blood, sweat, and tears into a comic they create, and they only make a small portion of the price of that book, maybe 25 cents per copy...and no one bats an eye. But ask some to sign a comic for slabbing, all reason goes out the window, and they want all OR MORE of the supposed "profit" they assume that person in front of them is trying to make...? It's madness. These creators fundamentally do not understand the market, how it works, and they are actively being lied to by people who are self-serving and only looking out for their own profit, telling them they ought to "charge such and such, because people are making fat profits off your sig!" Madness. If someone is going to make an economic argument, make the ENTIRE argument, and point out to these creators that their signature IS NOT WORTH what they're charging. "But they can charge whatever they want!!!" - not in dispute. That's a specious argument, because no one is disputing they can charge whatever they want. Want to charge $10,000,000? Go for it. Knock yourself out. But you will KNOW that your sig isn't worth that. Same scenario, smaller scale. But SOME of them, if not MOST of them, CAN understand economics, and wouldn't be so quick to upcharge IF they understood this reality.
	8 years ago	Post 77 • IP flag post

Collector 85	85 Jack private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 7
	I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers.
	8 years ago	Post 78 • IP flag post

Collector 4.03K	4.03K VaComicsGuy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	The problem with some of these positions is that they presuppose what the "creator" is thinking, or what their intention is. What if. . . . . . the creator doesn't give a damn what we do with the book after getting it signed? What if their intention is to stick it to the grading companies? What if they feel they are entitled to more $ based not on the actual finalized value of the book, but for their time and effort for the actual signing itself? To use the painter analogy, the painter is not getting paid based on the value the paint creates. He is getting paid to paint, to apply color to the wall. In much the same way, the artist isn't getting paid for the value of the book, he is getting paid to apply color (ink) to the book. How many of us would really create something and then sit by quietly while we watched (1) a flipper (2) an AW (in some cases but not all) and (3) a grading company make money off of our creation, while being told we should be grateful? As for the position that the signature isn't worth the money, the fact that hundreds of people line up to pay (or complain that the lines closed out before they got their chance) proves that the signature DOES, IN FACT, add value (economic or otherwise), at least to those people that pay the requested mount. I'm not a fan of signatures. My 10 yr old is. He's already figured out that if he doesn't like what an artist is offering, move on.
	8 years ago	Post 79 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jack I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers. Ok. So who's a "regular fan"...?
	8 years ago	Post 80 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by VaComicsGuy The problem with some of these positions is that they presuppose what the "creator" is thinking, or what their intention is. What if. . . . . . the creator doesn't give a damn what we do with the book after getting it signed? What if their intention is to stick it to the grading companies? What if they feel they are entitled to more $ based not on the actual finalized value of the book, but for their time and effort for the actual signing itself? To use the painter analogy, the painter is not getting paid based on the value the paint creates. He is getting paid to paint, to apply color to the wall. In much the same way, the artist isn't getting paid for the value of the book, he is getting paid to apply color (ink) to the book. How many of us would really create something and then sit by quietly while we watched (1) a flipper (2) an AW (in some cases but not all) and (3) a grading company make money off of our creation, while being told we should be grateful? As for the position that the signature isn't worth the money, the fact that hundreds of people line up to pay (or complain that the lines closed out before they got their chance) proves that the signature DOES, IN FACT, add value (economic or otherwise), at least to those people that pay the requested mount. I'm not a fan of signatures. My 10 yr old is. He's already figured out that if he doesn't like what an artist is offering, move on. Fantastic point-of-view! Talk about cutting to the heart of the matter. Nice! Oh, and on the flipper thing and profits check out the selection of Todd McFarlane slabbed and sketched yellow labels on eBay. Holy crap! $8500.00 for a sketch of Vision signed by Todd and Stan. Make you laugh when the same comic graded at 9.2, signed by Todd and Stan, with a sketch of Captain America sold for $250.00. You can purchase McFarlane Hulk pages for much less that 8500.00. Crazy! Link to the discussion when we chatted about it in the Stan Lee bubble thread... clickable text
	8 years ago	Post 81 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by VaComicsGuy
The problem with some of these positions is that they presuppose what the "creator" is thinking, or what their intention is.

Completely and fully agreed, except that I suspect we're not coming at it from the same perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG

What if. . .
. . . the creator doesn't give a damn what we do with the book after getting it signed?

When a creator says "I'm charging more because you're going to sell this", they clearly, unequivocally give a damn about what we're doing with the book after getting it signed.

No question about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
What if their intention is to stick it to the grading companies?

Punishing your fans because you don't like the grading companies...?

Seems an odd way to go about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG

What if they feel they are entitled to more $ based not on the actual finalized value of the book, but for their time and effort for the actual signing itself?

Not in dispute. Creators can charge whatever they want, for any reason they want.

The issue...again...is that there are creators who aren't doing what you've said here, but are doing it because they believe...this isn't supposition, they have told people, to their faces, that this is why they're doing it...that ALL the people getting books slabbed are doing it "for profit."

This is not true.

Would SOME creators charge whatever they want, regardless? Of course.

Would SOME creators say "huh. I didn't know that. I guess I won't charge a different price." Yes. And THOSE are the creators trying to be reasoned with, as X51 put it earlier.

It's a matter, then, of persuasion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
To use the painter analogy, the painter is not getting paid based on the value the paint creates. He is getting paid to paint, to apply color to the wall. In much the same way, the artist isn't getting paid for the value of the book, he is getting paid to apply color (ink) to the book. How many of us would really create something and then sit by quietly while we watched (1) a flipper (2) an AW (in some cases but not all) and (3) a grading company make money off of our creation, while being told we should be grateful?

That's absolutely right. The painter isn't getting paid based on the value HIS WORK creates; that is, the additional sales value of the home. Same with creators. And, in fact, the painter is actually doing MORE work...far more work...than just signing a book, which requires very little effort in the grand scheme of things.

And it's quite a bit of a stretch to suggest that a signature is a "creation." Ok, fine, in an absolute sense it is, but it is not anything most people would call "work product." He's just signing his name, not creating something (just talking about signatures, not sketches. That's a whole separate argument.)

Again: the book doesn't belong to the creator. The house doesn't belong to the painter. If I'm painting for a flipper, what business is that of mine? I charge this price, he/she accepts, done deal. What happens to the house afterwards is none of my concern.

Your arguments are from emotion, rather than reason. To "sit quietly by while we watched someone making money off our creation, and being told we should be grateful", as if the creator is being taken advantage of in some way, and the creator has a right to feel angry. That's not the case.

Yes. Yes, they should be grateful that people supported their work and care about it enough to want to obtain their signature. The publishers make money off their creation. The printers make money off their creation. The distributors make money off their creation. The retailers make money off their creation.

And the creator should be grateful for each and every one of those facets of the industry, which allows him to GET PAID for the ability to get his vision to the public. That's a POWERFUL ability to have, to be able to share your vision with the world.

Absolutely he or she should be grateful! I would be! Wouldn't you...?

That said, that particular book is NOT the creator's "creation." It is a COPY of it. A REPRODUCTION. The creator no more owns that than the journalist owns the copy of the newspaper I bought the other day. What business is it of the creator what someone does with THEIR PROPERTY? So the grading company is "making money" off of a COPY of the creator's work. So? What business is that of the creator's? It's not his property. If I wish to send a copy of X-Men #297 to be made into those paper mache shoes, is not the "paper mache shoe making company making money" off the creator's work...?

Yup.

And I bought THAT COPY, and can do with THAT COPY whatever I feel like, and it's none of the creator's business what I do with THAT COPY. Eat it, sell it, grade it, bonfire it, mulch it, turn it into a mobile...all none of the creator's concern or business.

No one is making the argument that signing a book has ZERO value. Of course it does! It's effort, however small, for the creator. But some of these creators...and a lot more...are being convinced that their signatures are magic fairy princesses that take books that would only be worth $1...SLABBED...and magically turn them into $500 books.

That's not the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG

As for the position that the signature isn't worth the money, the fact that hundreds of people line up to pay (or complain that the lines closed out before they got their chance) proves that the signature DOES, IN FACT, add value (economic or otherwise), at least to those people that pay the requested mount.

That's an inaccurate argument, at least in part, and here's why: nobody has said that the signature "isn't worth the cost." As you rightly point out, economic reasons aren't the only reasons to get books signed. I have paid John Totleben well over a thousand dollars...$1500 or so, I think...to get about 150 books signed by him over the years. A good chunk of those signatures aren't worth the $10 per book he charged...FINANCIALLY. However, for me, they're worth every penny.

But that's not the position that is being argued in this discussion, of course. The argument is "is it financially worth it", and the clear answer, much of the time, is a solid "no." We're talking about business, not "being a fan."

So, arguing that there are "hundreds of people who think it's worth the cost" isn't a valid argument in this discussion. That's not in dispute. Of course there are.

There are NOT, however, "hundreds of people hoping the books grade out the way they need them to, so the signature is worth the cost." That IS the argument.

8 years ago

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	I'm not going to lie, I do collect books, but I also flip a lot of books. The books I flip i have zero attachment to. I'm in it strictly for the money. I minimise risk by picking up books on the cheap, slab them, and if it makes economic sense, I have them signed to increase their value. There are a lot of assumptions made in this thread. 1. Never assume that every flipper is paying the same amount that you are for a creator to sign their book. 2. Never assume that every flipper purchased the book at the same price you did. 3. Never assume that a book you find today will have the same fair market value in the amount of time it takes to get the book signed and graded. 12 weeks is a long time.
	8 years ago	Post 83 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics I'm not going to lie, I do collect books, but I also flip a lot of books. The books I flip i have zero attachment to. I'm in it strictly for the money. I minimise risk by picking up books on the cheap, slab them, and if it makes economic sense, I have them signed to increase their value. There are a lot of assumptions made in this thread. 1. Never assume that every flipper is paying the same amount that you are for a creator to sign their book. 2. Never assume that every flipper purchased the book at the same price you did. 3. Never assume that a book you find today will have the same fair market value in the amount of time it takes to get the book signed and graded. 12 weeks is a long time. I didn't see any of those assumptions being made, but they are accurate statements nonetheless, which is all the more reason why creators should understand the market before assuming that everyone slabbing is doing it "for profit."
	8 years ago	Post 84 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 13.26K	13.26K shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by VaComicsGuy How many of us would really create something and then sit by quietly while we watched (1) a flipper (2) an AW (in some cases but not all) and (3) a grading company make money off of our creation, while being told we should be grateful? Quoted for greatness
	8 years ago	Post 85 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	The Plastino family incident is a perfect illustration of this problem. Al Plastino signed a book...I forget which one...and the infamous "Black Star" (or whomever was the SS eBay seller who listed everything pictured on a short column, as if it was Roman art) listed it for $8,500, and someone in the Plastino family saw it and freaked the hell out. Result? Al was convinced by said family that he was being taken advantage of, and was also convinced to start charging some ridiculous amount of money for his signature...and nobody got their books signed by Al Plastino again, because he had priced himself completely out of the market. Why? Because someone saw something they didn't understand (an idiot eBay seller asking an idiot price far, far in excess of what the book was really worth), and reacted emotionally instead of finding out the facts of the matter. Al lost, his family lost, his fans lost. Because someone had an emotional reaction to something they saw, and couldn't be bothered to investigate. That was something worth getting upset about.
	8 years ago	Post 86 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer Quote: Originally Posted by VaComicsGuy How many of us would really create something and then sit by quietly while we watched (1) a flipper (2) an AW (in some cases but not all) and (3) a grading company make money off of our creation, while being told we should be grateful? Quoted for greatness It's an emotional and erroneous argument. Calling a signature a "creation" is a very big stretch, and suggesting that a creator should be mad because someone else is POTENTIALLY...not actually, POTENTIALLY..."making money off of it" makes about as much sense as a creator being angry at a publisher, printer, distributor, and retailer for making money off their ACTUAL work.
	8 years ago	Post 87 • IP flag post

Collector 85	85 Jack private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers. Ok. So who's a "regular fan"...? I'm not sure what you're asking.
	8 years ago	Post 88 • IP flag post

Collector 85	85 Jack private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by VaComicsGuy As for the position that the signature isn't worth the money, the fact that hundreds of people line up to pay (or complain that the lines closed out before they got their chance) proves that the signature DOES, IN FACT, add value (economic or otherwise), at least to those people that pay the requested mount. Yes, I agree.
	8 years ago	Post 89 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBrown
When a creator says "I'm charging more because you're going to sell this", they clearly, unequivocally give a damn about what we're doing with the book after getting it signed.

I've been to hundreds of cons and never heard an artist say that. I have heard them say they will charge more if it's getting slabbed but those are different statements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBrown
but are doing it because they believe...this isn't supposition, they have told people, to their faces, that this is why they're doing it.

Again, never head a creator say that, but even if some do, how does that apply to all creators? DO they all believe the same thing? You are creating a blanket statement and applying it to all creators that might charge different amounts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBrown
in fact, the painter is actually doing MORE work...far more work...than just signing a book, which requires very little effort in the grand scheme of things.

You are aware that painters create estimates that are essentially them telling you what they charge for the task you want performed, right? Just like the artist tells you what he charges for the task you want performed. Nice that you get to be dismissive of the artists "very little effort. Here's the thing, if I want a Neal Adams autograph, I have only one source. If I want my house painted, I have thousands. Supply and demand. It might be "very little effort" for Neal, but fact is, he has the NA autograph market as a tiny little monopoly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBrown
Again: the book doesn't belong to the creator. The house doesn't belong to the painter. If I'm painting for a flipper, what business is that of mine? I charge this price, he/she accepts, done deal. What happens to the house afterwards is none of my concern.

Absolutely. But, what happens if I ask the painter to do some more work? Even if it requires "very little effort"

Think he'll paint the hall for free if I tell him, its very little effort? Of course not. Asking for a signature is asking the artist for MORE and the interesting part is he had no deal, contract or agreement with us in the first place. I'm going to try that out. A painter agrees to paint my neighbors house. They eventually sell it to me. I then go to the painter and tell him to do some touch ups for free. Its only very little effort. He should agree. Right? I'll just explain to him how he should be grateful to all the architects, builders, plumbers, realtors and contractors. Kind of a ridiculous argument isn't it? But I'm sure you will tell me why comics are different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBrown
. . . isn't a valid argument in this discussion.

I missed the thread rules and guidelines on what is and isn't valid but you say i'm wrong, so I must be. OR, or, and I just might be totally nuts here, but maybe you are trying to cherry pick what you want to discuss and dismissing what others have to say by saying, "yeah. but no." Like when you said, . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBrown
Your arguments are from emotion, rather than reason. To "sit quietly by while we watched someone making money off our creation, and being told we should be grateful", as if the creator is being taken advantage of in some way, and the creator has a right to feel angry. That's not the case.

I'll give you $ 1000 if you can show me where I said the creators were being taken advantage of....or where I said the creator has a right to be angry (or even not) I didn't say either of those things and you know it but hey it's alot more fun to create drama out of nowhere isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBrown
There are NOT, however, "hundreds of people hoping the books grade out the way they need them to, so the signature is worth the cost." That IS the argument.

REALLY? SERIOUSLY? so all of those people selling on Ebay, MCS, Here and on a ton of other sites arent' hoping their books grade out to make it worthwhile? Someone better tell them. I don't have time to get to all of them but I'll do what I can.

I'm not a wall of text guy and I apologize to the board for this post. Doc Brown, If you would like to continue this conversation, we can do so through PM.

8 years ago

past performance is no guarantee of future actions. 31.7K	31.7K KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	I don't know...I tend to not care really and really really if it an older artist who isn't working that much anymore. Now I know it's not our fault if they were paid well back in the 70's, 80's or 90's and did not manage their money properly but I still maintain artists, comic or otherwise, have different employment and income stream issues than normal working folks. If their work is no longer the fad of the day (lets see where Artgerm?? is in 10-20yrs) and they did not save for a rainy day but I am still a fan and would like a signature or sketch - why get bent out of shape if they ask for a few bucks
	8 years ago	Post 91 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 6
	Back in 1974 we started a Comics Memory Book which over the years has grown to where the 250 pages in it are "full" and never paid a dime for anything in it. Collecting a signature from a comics creator should be a personalized relationship - if however brief - at a show, shows over the years, chance encounter of a "3rd" kind, what ever runs one's wagon. The slab community with its 9.8 9.6 9.4 9.2 obsession(s) has soured a majority of the comics collecting community especially since the advent of the "yellow" SS series and jacked up prices being asked. Any one ever study the marketing ploy tactics of AmWay? This slab sig gig is akin to same. A Comics Reality.
	8 years ago	Post 92 • IP flag post

Collector 4.03K	4.03K VaComicsGuy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	@BLBcomics That's very cool. I'm not a signature guy but my 10 yr old is. He thought about starting a sketch book but decided he's rather have individualized items so (1) he can display (2) he can change what he displays (3) all of his eggs aren't in one basket if something happens. I think, In time, he will switch to what you are doing.
	8 years ago	Post 93 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics Back in 1974 we started a Comics Memory Book which over the years has grown to where the 250 pages in it are "full" and never paid a dime for anything in it. Collecting a signature from a comics creator should be a personalized relationship - if however brief - at a show, shows over the years, chance encounter of a "3rd" kind, what ever runs one's wagon. The slab community with its 9.8 9.6 9.4 9.2 obsession(s) has soured a majority of the comics collecting community especially since the advent of the "yellow" SS series and jacked up prices being asked. Any one ever study the marketing ploy tactics of AmWay? This slab sig gig is akin to same. A Comics Reality. I always like the sketches you post.
	8 years ago	Post 94 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.42K	30.42K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	It seems that most people on both sides of the argument are missing the bigger picture and not asking the right questions. The most important question is Why now? These artists could have attacked the signature series approach at any time but only recently started attempting to collect these extra fees. I believe the answer has to do with the emergence of CBCS and the competition between the two grading companies. This gives the artists the carrot and stick of exclusivity where both companies have an incentive to cooperate that did not exist before. I also noticed that many of the handlers are former CGC employees. This may not be a coincidence.
	8 years ago	Post 95 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 11.29K	11.29K conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Wow. Am I glad I no longer obtain signatures. https://forum.cbcscomics.com/topic/4175/cbcs-signature-restrictions-for-aws/
	8 years ago	Post 96 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Back circa 1999 a friend and I drove all the way down to the bottom of Illinois to take in "Superman Day" in Metropolis. While there wandering the town a bit I noticed a line stretching out the door, asked the last few lost souls who was inside, they said Alex Ross. Ross was then fairly new on the set but had come in with a bang with his neat art so i got in line. A big sign at the door said, "Don't even ask for a drawing, Sigs Only!" After an hour or so it was my turn in front of this guy. All I was expecting was an autograph in it, but then He flips thru my Comics Memory Book, page after page of many of his own fave creators, looks down for half a sec, then stands up on the seat of his chair speaking loudly to every one - 75 to 100 other lost souls like me - saying he realizes the sign says no drawings, but he (Alex Ross) just HAD to have a drawing in it. So, I got me a Supes head shot full page. Then I had to walk back out the single door past all those others silently staring daggers my direction. After the first 20 sets of "dagger eyes" I sort of smiled and beamed basking in another ten seconds of jealous fans. So much so I felt blessed by the Comic Ghods! I reiterate, simply start a book of sigs. They all sign same for free. I talk with the creators about their work when I meet them. Most of em highly resent the slab SS crowd sealing up their stories in plastic coffins. Those who think they are going to make Big Bucks "flipping" such transitory treasures as a signed funny book slabbed up so it can not be read all worked up over 9.8 vs 9.6 vs Or Worse (lower slab number) who resent the fact that many a creator resents such overt mercantile behavior even going so far as cutting holes in a plastic/mylite for sig placement with it having a few backer boards to maintain hoped for 9.8 magic numbers seem to complain a lot when creators simply do not "see" their POV. Where is the "fun" in such activity? Just wondering (a real query).
	8 years ago	Post 97 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer Quote: Originally Posted by VaComicsGuy How many of us would really create something and then sit by quietly while we watched (1) a flipper (2) an AW (in some cases but not all) and (3) a grading company make money off of our creation, while being told we should be grateful? Quoted for greatness It's an emotional and erroneous argument. Calling a signature a "creation" is a very big stretch, and suggesting that a creator should be mad because someone else is POTENTIALLY...not actually, POTENTIALLY..."making money off of it" makes about as much sense as a creator being angry at a publisher, printer, distributor, and retailer for making money off their ACTUAL work. So in your opinion, DC should never have paid the 50k stipend to Siegel and Shuster for the rest of their lives over Superman? I mean, they weren't legally obligated to do so. DC and Marvel pay creators royalties depending on the sales of their books. Maybe flippers should do the same?
	8 years ago	Post 98 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	If I was someone who collected signatures, I would have asked for Robert's signature. I had a fun conversation with him at Heroes con one year. I love to hear him tell about the history of the industry. From my experience in talking with celebrities (or pseudo-celebrities), flattering them with discussions about their work is flat out boring to them and it puts you into a category of being "them". I exchanged emails with Neal Adams and we discussed geology. I never once said "I loved your art on batman" or discussed his art at all. I carried on a conversation with a model at one show about wine. We also talked about her boyfriend that was touring with Ozzy Osbourne. These people are more than just what they do for a living. They have other interests and they like talking about things that interest them. If you want to be just another annoying fan in line trying to get a signature, look anxious for it. Praise them on the same artwork that the previous 200 fans have provided praise. If you want to have an interesting and candid conversation, talk about what interests them. It might not even have anything to do with their work.
	8 years ago	Post 99 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	X51 - that is exactly what I do. These "creator" souls are "real" people also. Many a time they disrupt their personal lives to attend these "comicons" - and get grief from some who do not do what the fan asks. Quickest way to break such "ice" is to talk about stuff other than comics and/or placement of sig on a comic book without a spine bend hurting the entertainment meant to be read.
	8 years ago	Post 100 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 13.26K	13.26K shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	It's 16/4 against/for respectively, or 75/25%. Not that I'm counting With all the argument, I dont think a single person changed their mind either lol; good exercise, mates
	8 years ago	Post 101 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer It's 16/4 against/for respectively, or 75/25%. Not that I'm counting With all the argument, I dont think a single person changed their mind either lol; good exercise, mates See we can have a discussion that has various points of view without the thread getting locked. Nice to know but that wasn't my intention when I started the thread. Standing in line behind people railing about something gives you an opportunity to formulate an opinion about what they are going on and on and on about. I wish I could say it made the time go by faster but it didn't.
	8 years ago	Post 102 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jack Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Jack I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers. Ok. So who's a "regular fan"...? I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not sure what's ambiguous about my question. You said "I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense." You're making a distinction between the two, so I'm wondering, in your mind, who is a "regular fan" and who is a "flipper"...? How does one distinguish between the two...?
	8 years ago	Post 103 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics X51 - that is exactly what I do. These "creator" souls are "real" people also. Many a time they disrupt their personal lives to attend these "comicons" - and get grief from some who do not do what the fan asks. Quickest way to break such "ice" is to talk about stuff other than comics and/or placement of sig on a comic book without a spine bend hurting the entertainment meant to be read. Bob...when you sell a comic book for a lot more money than it sold for when published, you're taking part in the mentality that is concerned with things like spine bends. That item has value because of what it is, true, but also the condition it is in. If you only wish to discuss the entertainment value of these books, why not just sell the latest, most current reprint of that story...? And if we're going to argue that creators "disrupt their personal lives to attend these comicons", I would bring up the fact that many of these creators' entire business model is based ON attending comicons. That it is not only NOT a "disruption", but it is, in fact, the method and mode by which they exercise their creative potential, whether it's taking commissions, or networking with publishers and other creators, or just simply getting a booth and selling their own product. I don't think it's reasonable to cast creators in the light of "well, look, they're doing everyone a FAVOR by showing up..."
	8 years ago	Post 104 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by VaComicsGuy
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
When a creator says "I'm charging more because you're going to sell this", they clearly, unequivocally give a damn about what we're doing with the book after getting it signed.

I've been to hundreds of cons and never heard an artist say that. I have heard them say they will charge more if it's getting slabbed but those are different statements.

That's not a valid counterargument. Just because you have never heard something doesn't therefore mean it's not been said.

Have you done signature series on a regular basis?

I have been directly involved in the CGC Signature Series program, mostly as a witness, for nine years. In that time, I have witnessed thousands of books. I can tell you who some of the creators are who have said this, or words to this effect:

Len Wein
Marv Wolfman
Neal Adams
Frank Miller
Adam Hughes
Jim Starlin
Nike Zeck (mostly because of Renee Witterstaetter)
Mike Golden (again, Renee)
Renee Witterstaetter
Rob Liefeld
Todd McFarlane
Chris Claremont

...and that's just off the top of my head. There's more. These creators all charge a "slabbing surcharge" specifically because they think that everyone slabbing books with their sigs are doing so "to make money."

Finally, even if all of that weren't the case, basic reason says that if they're charging more because it's being slabbed for a specific reason. That reason? Because they think you're going to sell it.

That's neither here nor there, however, because plenty of creators have stated that, upfront, without any qualms whatsoever, and I can produce a bevy of witnesses who have heard the exact same thing.

So, then, it goes back to the statement: "When a creator says "I'm charging more because you're going to sell this", they clearly, unequivocally give a damn about what we're doing with the book after getting it signed."

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
but are doing it because they believe...this isn't supposition, they have told people, to their faces, that this is why they're doing it.
Again, never head a creator say that,

Again, not a valid counterargument. I've never seen an eclipse in person; does that mean they don't exist? Not trying to be snide, simply trying to point out that counterarguments have to be rational.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
but even if some do, how does that apply to all creators? DO they all believe the same thing? You are creating a blanket statement and applying it to all creators that might charge different amounts.

Not true. I make a concerted effort to avoid blanket statements, and here's why that statement isn't one:

It doesn't apply to all creators. It only applies to those creators who charge a HIGHER PRICE for people who are slabbing, or who they THINK might be slabbing.

I mean, it's a bit of a silly side discussion we've gotten into; why ELSE do you think creators would charge a slab surcharge, other than "because they think someone might be profiting off their signature"...? If you can give me a plausible explanation for the surcharge that does NOT have to do with creators thinking this, please, by all means, share it. I'm willing to listen.

(as an aside, I know some people complain about it, but it's better to preserve the entire context of what others have said, so the chain of discussion doesn't get confusing.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
in fact, the painter is actually doing MORE work...far more work...than just signing a book, which requires very little effort in the grand scheme of things.
You are aware that painters create estimates that are essentially them telling you what they charge for the task you want performed, right?

Yes, I'm very much aware of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
Just like the artist tells you what he charges for the task you want performed. Nice that you get to be dismissive of the artists "very little effort. Here's the thing, if I want a Neal Adams autograph, I have only one source. If I want my house painted, I have thousands. Supply and demand. It might be "very little effort" for Neal, but fact is, he has the NA autograph market as a tiny little monopoly.

Ok, let's not take the coocoo train into silly town and call me "dismissive" for saying a signature is "very little effort."

Are you seriously suggesting that SIGNING YOUR NAME is anything beyond "very little effort"...?

Come on. People sign their names virtually every day. Some people sign their names multiple times a day. It's one of the least taxing things people do on a regular basis. It's the definition of "very little effort." That's not being "dismissive"...(interesting perspective, though!)...that's just calling something what it really is: very little effort.

You're arguing against a position that no one is taking: namely, that creators can't charge whatever they want for their signatures. No one is arguing in favor of that position. You're 100% correct, the only source for Neal Adams signatures is Neal Adams. But this isn't about that, and never has been. The issue is charging a SURCHARGE for people they know, or think, are going to be slabbing the book.

If Neal wants to charge $10,000,000 for his signature, God bless him, more power to him!

But Neal isn't the only creator in town, and if Neal wants to charge $10,000,000, he will get precisely zero customers for his signature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Again: the book doesn't belong to the creator. The house doesn't belong to the painter. If I'm painting for a flipper, what business is that of mine? I charge this price, he/she accepts, done deal. What happens to the house afterwards is none of my concern.
Absolutely. But, what happens if I ask the painter to do some more work? Even if it requires "very little effort" Think he'll paint the hall for free if I tell him, its very little effort? Of course not.

Agreed completely. And no one is arguing otherwise. No one is saying anyone should do anything for free, "very little effort" or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
Asking for a signature is asking the artist for MORE and the interesting part is he had no deal, contract or agreement with us in the first place. I'm going to try that out. A painter agrees to paint my neighbors house. They eventually sell it to me. I then go to the painter and tell him to do some touch ups for free. Its only very little effort. He should agree. Right? I'll just explain to him how he should be grateful to all the architects, builders, plumbers, realtors and contractors. Kind of a ridiculous argument isn't it? But I'm sure you will tell me why comics are different.

Again...you're arguing against a position that no one is arguing in favor of.

No one said anyone should do anything for free (and your examples here is not logically consistent, but I don't know if hashing out how would help anyone.)

(Oh, what the hell, I'll give it a shot.)

Architects, plumbers, realtors, and contractors have nothing to do with the painter getting his artistic vision out to the public when they are hired by home owners to paint their houses.

A painter does not need any of those people to have a successful house painting business.

Publishers PUBLISH the comic books that contain the creators' artistic vision.

Printers PRINT the comics that contain the creators' artistic vision.

Distributors DISTRIBUTE the comics that contain the creators' artistic vision.

Retailers SELL the comics that contain the creators' artistic vision.

Without ALL of those people, in one form or another, the creators' artistic vision DOES NOT get to the public.

So yes, the creators should be VERY grateful that such a system is in place.

Even Dave Sim couldn't print, distribute, or sell his comics by himself, although he might have, if he could!

So, yes, the argument that "I'll just explain to him how he should be grateful to all the architects, builders, plumbers, realtors and contractors" is, in fact, completely ridiculous, as you say, and yes, that's why comics are different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
. . . isn't a valid argument in this discussion.
I missed the thread rules and guidelines on what is and isn't valid but you say i'm wrong, so I must be.

Again, when you cut out context, these out of context statements lose their meaning. You have removed some important context clues which gives that statement its meaning. Here's the statement again, back in its context:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DB
...nobody has said that the signature "isn't worth the cost." As you rightly point out, economic reasons aren't the only reasons to get books signed. I have paid John Totleben well over a thousand dollars...$1500 or so, I think...to get about 150 books signed by him over the years. A good chunk of those signatures aren't worth the $10 per book he charged...FINANCIALLY. However, for me, they're worth every penny.

But that's not the position that is being argued in this discussion, of course. The argument is "is it financially worth it", and the clear answer, much of the time, is a solid "no." We're talking about business, not "being a fan."

So, arguing that there are "hundreds of people who think it's worth the cost" isn't a valid argument in this discussion. That's not in dispute. Of course there are.

...the argument isn't invalid because you don't have the right or ability to make it. You have the right and ability to make any argument you want, valid or invalid, and the thread "rules and guidelines" allow you to do so. That's not what is meant by "invalid argument in this discussion" means.

It means that you're arguing for a position which isn't in dispute; namely, that "hundreds of people think it's worth the cost." That is not in dispute. Let me say it again: that is not in dispute. There are, indeed, OFTEN (not always!) hundreds of people who think it's worth the cost. No dispute there. So, arguing that point, as if there were people arguing AGAINST that point, isn't a valid argument in THIS discussion, because no one is disputing that.

No one is disputing that lots of people pay those prices, whatever "those prices" means. However, there are NOT "hundreds of people", in my experience, that are SLABBING books on any given day, for any given creator. I've spent entire days running around artist alley, and have seen perhaps a dozen, maybe two dozen, maybe three dozen people who are SLABBING, as opposed to just getting signatures without slabbing (see below for more explanation.)

I would be VERY surprised if, for example, Jae Lee had more than 30 people who specifically went to see him FOR Sig Series at SDCC...the biggest con of the year. Very surprised.

You have to separate and make a distinction between those who suck up the cost...like a trip to Disneyland...because it's worth it to them PERSONALLY...which is NOT the discussion here...vs. people who are trying to make it a BUSINESS venture...which IS the discussion.

In other words, there are people who say "This copy of Thor #385 that Stan wrote is a rag, but it was the first comic I ever bought, and even though I know it's not really "worth" it to pay $160 for him to sign it on the aftermarket, I'm going to pay to have it signed and slabbed, because it's worth it to ME, for personal reasons." - This is not the discussion here.

And there are people who say "This copy of ASM #25 I have is roughly a 9.0, 9.2. I need to decide if the risk is worth the cost, because I'm getting this signed and slabbed to sell. If it comes back an 8.0, it will be a loss for me." - This is the discussion.

Sorry to belabor the point, but it was missed initially.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
OR, or, and I just might be totally nuts here, but maybe you are trying to cherry pick what you want to discuss and dismissing what others have to say by saying, "yeah. but no." Like when you said, . . .

I agree that you are totally nuts here, for the reasons laid out directly above. You're arguing in favor of an argument...that "hundreds of people think it's worth the cost", so creators can charge what they want, because it DOES add value for the people willing to pay it"...that no one is arguing in opposition to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Your arguments are from emotion, rather than reason. To "sit quietly by while we watched someone making money off our creation, and being told we should be grateful", as if the creator is being taken advantage of in some way, and the creator has a right to feel angry. That's not the case.

I'll give you $ 1000 if you can show me where I said the creators were being taken advantage of....or where I said the creator has a right to be angry (or even not) I didn't say either of those things and you know it but hey it's alot more fun to create drama out of nowhere isn't it?

What are the words "How many of us would really create something and then sit by quietly while we watched (1) a flipper (2) an AW (in some cases but not all) and (3) a grading company make money off of our creation, while being told we should be grateful?" supposed to evoke/imply/suggest...?

Serious question, there. You used emotional language: "sit quietly by", "being told we should be grateful"...to evoke a specific idea, mood, or concept, did you not...?

If so, what OTHER interpretation of that statement right there is there to be made, aside from "cue the violins, someone's being taken advantage of."...? Serious question, here. I'm willing to listen if you meant something else.

I don't think you're being very honest, here, with yourself or everyone else. I can't help but notice that you're quick to say "that's not what I said! You're just trying to create drama!", but then don't go on to explain what you DID mean. If I interpreted your comment incorrectly, why not explain how...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCG
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
There are NOT, however, "hundreds of people hoping the books grade out the way they need them to, so the signature is worth the cost." That IS the argument.
REALLY? SERIOUSLY? so all of those people selling on Ebay, MCS, Here and on a ton of other sites arent' hoping their books grade out to make it worthwhile? Someone better tell them. I don't have time to get to all of them but I'll do what I can.

You have misinterpreted my statement. My apologies. Let me re-word it for you, to make my meaning clearer: There are NOT, however, "hundreds of people hoping the books grade out the way they need them to, so the signature is worth the cost"...there are about two or three dozen of those people. I know who they are, because I've worked with and along side of them for nearly a decade. It's not a large group of people. Yes, sure, there are certainly a lot of people who do one-offs or two-offs...but not people who do it on a regular basis.

My statement didn't mean to say there were NO people doing this; and, frankly, the context of the whole conversation should have made that abundantly clear, because there are a handful of people who have stated they DO do this, myself included.

Hopefully that clears that up. Again, my apologies for not making that as clear as can possibly be (and it's a great example, of how easy it is to misunderstand others in the written word, why benefit of the doubt is CRITICAL in honest, open dialogue, and why "a lot of words" are often necessary.)

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