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Opinion – various cost of sigs and drawings4452

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Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos It is a minor point but worth noting. I have quite a few signed books available for sale in my Ebay store. If these artists want a piece of the pie are they willing to compensate me if the book sells at a loss? Exactly! Now we're talking!!
	8 years ago	Post 51 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	I'll confess that I haven't read everyone's post here. I did scan over a few. My comment is just a stand-alone statement. I reasoned with Neal Adams and he did a sketch for $50 less than his advertised rates. A signature came free with the sketch. I don't care anything about signatures. A signature by itself would have meant nothing to me and you wouldn't have coaxed me into buying one for even a dime. I respect his talent and his accomplishments. As a person, I see him as a business man who knows the value of his name and he works hard to maintain the financial value of his name and the value of his art on the market. His livelihood and his business requires that he not diminish the value of his work. What he charges does not offend me in any way. I paid what my budget allowed for his sketch. If the price had been higher, I would have walked away and still thanked him for considering my request. His comic art can sell for tens of thousands a page. Most modern artist that you meet at shows can't sell their art for that much. As far as I'm concerned, he's a legend in the industry and I feel honored to have anything that he took the time to draw for me.
	8 years ago	Post 52 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by X51 I'll confess that I haven't read everyone's post here. I did scan over a few. My comment is just a stand-alone statement. I reasoned with Neal Adams and he did a sketch for $50 less than his advertised rates. A signature came free with the sketch. I don't care anything about signatures. A signature by itself would have meant nothing to me and you wouldn't have coaxed me into buying one for even a dime. I respect his talent and his accomplishments. As a person, I see him as a business man who knows the value of his name and he works hard to maintain the financial value of his name and the value of his art on the market. His livelihood and his business requires that he not diminish the value of his work. What he charges does not offend me in any way. I paid what my budget allowed for his sketch. If the price had been higher, I would have walked away and still thanked him for considering my request. His comic art can sell for tens of thousands a page. Most modern artist that you meet at shows can't sell their art for that much. As far as I'm concerned, he's a legend in the industry and I feel honored to have anything that he took the time to draw for me. But you still talked him down $50, right.....?
	8 years ago	Post 53 • IP flag post

Collector 1.58K	1.58K DavidM private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	I used to go to cons in the late 80's early 90's. Artists did not charge for their signature then. I have numerous comics signed by Miller, Gaiman, And Lee. I have many other signatures by lesser names also. The prevailing thought of the time was the signatures brought down the value as they were not mint anymore. I got my comics signed for my personal collection and didn't care if they lost value, they meant more to me. I don't think It's a good thing that artists charge for their signatures but you can blame sports. Baseball and Football guys were charging long before the comic artists did. Bottom line is personal preference. If you really want the signatures, go for it. I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.
	8 years ago	Post 54 • IP flag post

Collector 517	517 VictorCreed private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jeremy_K There was a creator who wanted around $250 for a sketch on the Harley Quinn comic where she is stealing a painting and the painting is blank. If you know the comic I'm talking about it isn't worth slabbing if you are looking to make a buck. This would be a very small head sketch that would take 5 minutes. How can any reasonable person put $250 into a simple little head sketch on a $5 book. Point being I think the artist needs to take a little look at the situation. As in i'll do the sketch for $25 and whom do I make it out to. Or sure little kid I'll sign your beat up comics and charge these adults behind you. Maybe she didn't want to sketch at all so set a crazy price.
	8 years ago	Post 55 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by X51 I'll confess that I haven't read everyone's post here. I did scan over a few. My comment is just a stand-alone statement. I reasoned with Neal Adams and he did a sketch for $50 less than his advertised rates. A signature came free with the sketch. I don't care anything about signatures. A signature by itself would have meant nothing to me and you wouldn't have coaxed me into buying one for even a dime. I respect his talent and his accomplishments. As a person, I see him as a business man who knows the value of his name and he works hard to maintain the financial value of his name and the value of his art on the market. His livelihood and his business requires that he not diminish the value of his work. What he charges does not offend me in any way. I paid what my budget allowed for his sketch. If the price had been higher, I would have walked away and still thanked him for considering my request. His comic art can sell for tens of thousands a page. Most modern artist that you meet at shows can't sell their art for that much. As far as I'm concerned, he's a legend in the industry and I feel honored to have anything that he took the time to draw for me. But you still talked him down $50, right.....? Yeah. I honestly spent all the money I had at his table. It's not like he could've gotten more. I've bought stuff from his store through his son and I've exchanged emails with him in the past. I wouldn't say he knows me, but I never saw a communication gap in communicating with him. The price drop was associated more with a package deal he was selling that included a sketch. I already owned the item he was including in the package deal.
	8 years ago	Post 56 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DavidM I used to go to cons in the late 80's early 90's. Artists did not charge for their signature then. I have numerous comics signed by Miller, Gaiman, And Lee. I have many other signatures by lesser names also. The prevailing thought of the time was the signatures brought down the value as they were not mint anymore. I got my comics signed for my personal collection and didn't care if they lost value, they meant more to me. I don't think It's a good thing that artists charge for their signatures but you can blame sports. Baseball and Football guys were charging long before the comic artists did. Bottom line is personal preference. If you really want the signatures, go for it. I don't think it's going to change anytime soon. When I see signatures, I do feel that it brings down the value of an item for me unless it's tied to me eeting the person and talking to them. It's more of a sentimental remembrance. I've bought things from creators and asked them not to sign the items. I bought some artwork from a creator and he asked if I wanted him to sign it. I smiled and said that it was a little pointless since there isn't anything more personal than having a page that he spent hours drawing. I left it up to him and he signed it anyway. At one show, I wanted some art from Olivia, but I think her paintings were about $6,000 a piece. A man who was at the show pointed me to some rough watercolor layout sketches that she had brought. With a $150 discount, I purchased one. it was uncanny luck because not only did I get Olivia to sign it, but I was also able to get the model to sign it. People say that you shouldn't get something personalized if you want to be able to resell it, but I honestly didn't care. I've probably said it elsewhere, but having Mike Judge's signature did have some meaning to me. I grew up seeing various celebrities first hand. To me, they are just people who got off their rear and took the initiative to actually do something rather than sit back waiting for fame to come to them.
	8 years ago	Post 57 • IP flag post

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics I slab Sigs for profit. Signed books go for a premium, and I'm all for paying someone for their labor. These artists carry overhead. Hotel rooms, rental cars, their booth and food are not free. There's no shame in them making a living by supplying what people demand. Nope. None at all. I don't think anyone disagrees with this. I've never seen anyone disagree with this. The question, then, isn't whether they should be paid for their labor, but how much, and under what circumstances? There is one thing I'll challenge, though: "Signed books go for a premium." That's not necessarily true, and it's certainly not true much of the time. Stan Lee charges $160 for his signature, currently. That means the "break even" point (meaning, the signed book didn't go for a premium) is about $225 if one is to sell the book on eBay. There are about 300 sold listings on eBay that sold for $225 OR LESS, as of today. That means all 300 of those books were sold for break even, or sold at a loss. No doubt, there are about 580+ listings that sold for MORE than the "break even" point. But there were a substantial number...nearly 40%...that sold for no premium, and, in fact, sold for a loss. If the argument is "Signed books sell for a premium", then that has to be true the vast majority of the time. It is not. A premium is different than a ROI. Signed books do go for a premium, but a premium does not equal a full return on what you paid. Premium just means they sell for more than average books without a signature. Of course there are some caveats. Having Jim Lee sign a Batman 608 makes sense. Having Jim Lee sign a Detective Comics 27 does not, and will greatly diminished the value of the book. If you want to make money, then you need to do your homework. I'll pay $15 for Tyler Kirkham's signature knowing that I will make back the $15 and then some. Of course, even that has caveats, the book needs to typically grade out at a 9.4 or better to recoup my investment.
	8 years ago	Post 58 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics A premium is different than a ROI. Signed books do go for a premium, but a premium does not equal a full return on what you paid. Premium just means they sell for more than average books without a signature. Of course there are some caveats. Having Jim Lee sign a Batman 608 makes sense. Having Jim Lee sign a Detective Comics 27 does not, and will greatly diminished the value of the book. If you want to make money, then you need to do your homework. I'll pay $15 for Tyler Kirkham's signature knowing that I will make back the $15 and then some. Of course, even that has caveats, the book needs to typically grade out at a 9.4 or better to recoup my investment. 1. Signed books DO NOT go for a premium, all the time. Exhibit A: 2. what is the point of a "premium" if it doesn't sell for more than the additional cost PLUS the reasonable compensation of time and effort...? None. Having Jim Lee sign a Batman #608 in 9.8 makes sense, yes. But you know what doesn't make sense...? Having him sign anything less than 9.6. The last sale of a 9.4...and we're not talking 6.5, here, but 9.4...was $41. Signed by Jim Lee, who now charges $30 for his signature. Did that make sense...? No, that seller lost money if they had it slabbed themselves. Yes, of course, if you want to make your money, you need to do your homework. But what about the people who don't necessarily want to make money, but want a, oh, Swamp Thing #39 in 9.8 signed by the creators...? 3. We're not talking about "ROI"...you don't call your employer paying you a paycheck a "ROI", even if, theoretically, that's what it is. It is compensation.
	8 years ago	Post 59 • IP flag post

Collector 4.95K	4.95K Lonestar private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 6
	Quote: Originally Posted by Towmater Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer It is not the creator's/artists business what you do with a book after he/she signs it. But, it certainly is their business how they want to make money, and feel like they arent getting porked by flippers making a mint off of their sigs. Its america at it's finest. If you dont like the way they're doing business, move along to someone else. I have encountered several that charged extra, and I was happy to pay it. Sakai even does an extra little doodle for folks paying the slab premium! On your business comment I would like to add a follow-up... - I'd like to know how many flippers on eBay have a business license. - I'd like to know how many of them pay income tax on their intrastate internet sales (Note I stated intrastate). - I'd like to know how many of them pay income taxes on the income generated from their flipping activities. - I'd like to know how many of them are paying sales tax on their sales if they are setting up at a convention. I think it would be entertaining to find out what percentage do any of the above. And after you find that out, you can find out how many of the writers/artists report all those cash sales of autographs, sketches or other things. Or at least accurately report that income.
	8 years ago	Post 60 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Lonestar Quote: Originally Posted by Towmater Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer It is not the creator's/artists business what you do with a book after he/she signs it. But, it certainly is their business how they want to make money, and feel like they arent getting porked by flippers making a mint off of their sigs. Its america at it's finest. If you dont like the way they're doing business, move along to someone else. I have encountered several that charged extra, and I was happy to pay it. Sakai even does an extra little doodle for folks paying the slab premium! On your business comment I would like to add a follow-up... - I'd like to know how many flippers on eBay have a business license. - I'd like to know how many of them pay income tax on their intrastate internet sales (Note I stated intrastate). - I'd like to know how many of them pay income taxes on the income generated from their flipping activities. - I'd like to know how many of them are paying sales tax on their sales if they are setting up at a convention. I think it would be entertaining to find out what percentage do any of the above. And after you find that out, you can find out how many of the writers/artists report all those cash sales of autographs, sketches or other things. Or at least accurately report that income. I'm not curious about what you brought up. I guess you are as you brought it up. Have at it. I would like to see the IRS drop the 1099 reporting level to 1K. I think you'd see some interesting things happen if Paypal had to issue them at that level.
	8 years ago	Post 61 • IP flag post

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics A premium is different than a ROI. Signed books do go for a premium, but a premium does not equal a full return on what you paid. Premium just means they sell for more than average books without a signature. Of course there are some caveats. Having Jim Lee sign a Batman 608 makes sense. Having Jim Lee sign a Detective Comics 27 does not, and will greatly diminished the value of the book. If you want to make money, then you need to do your homework. I'll pay $15 for Tyler Kirkham's signature knowing that I will make back the $15 and then some. Of course, even that has caveats, the book needs to typically grade out at a 9.4 or better to recoup my investment. 1. Signed books DO NOT go for a premium, all the time. Exhibit A: 2. what is the point of a "premium" if it doesn't sell for more than the additional cost PLUS the reasonable compensation of time and effort...? None. Having Jim Lee sign a Batman #608 in 9.8 makes sense, yes. But you know what doesn't make sense...? Having him sign anything less than 9.6. The last sale of a 9.4...and we're not talking 6.5, here, but 9.4...was $41. Signed by Jim Lee, who now charges $30 for his signature. Did that make sense...? No, that seller lost money if they had it slabbed themselves. Yes, of course, if you want to make your money, you need to do your homework. But what about the people who don't necessarily want to make money, but want a, oh, Swamp Thing #39 in 9.8 signed by the creators...? 3. We're not talking about "ROI"...you don't call your employer paying you a paycheck a "ROI", even if, theoretically, that's what it is. It is compensation. You can find anecdotal evidence on almost anything. Nothing is certain, and this market of comics changes on a daily basis. I've sold 9.4s with Lee's signature and reaped quite the profit. Many people on eBay aren't that savvy when it comes to selling on eBay. Sometimes people sell stuff that they're not sure of it's true value, sometimes people sell stuff on the cheap because they're cash strapped, or maybe that guy turned a really good profit by sitting on the book forever and a day. I picked up a Batman 655 Kubert variant out of a dollar bin, and graded out to 9.6. I sold it for $275,well below market price. By the time I was done with grading and shipping I had about $25 invested in it. Compare that to the guy who will spend $150 for the same book raw, grade out to 9.8 and get $500 for the book. For every dollar I invested I got $11 back. For every dollar he invests he gets back (assuming he spent the same for grading) he got back $2.86. The only people who know how much they made are the people selling them, and attempting to put every seller on the same level field and in the same economic circumstances is a futile exercise.
	8 years ago	Post 62 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 11.29K	11.29K conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 6
	I know most of us here are just passing time, talking about a mutual interest and hobby. So having said that, I would just like to say again, what I always say. It's your money. Do what the heck you want with it. Who am I to say you are making a mistake, or are a gullible fool? I do what I want with my money, and some of it makes no sense whatsoever, to my family and friends. Sometimes not even to me, five minutes after I did it. Like buying comic books.
	8 years ago	Post 63 • IP flag post

Collector 4.95K	4.95K Lonestar private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Towmater Quote: Originally Posted by Lonestar Quote: Originally Posted by Towmater Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer It is not the creator's/artists business what you do with a book after he/she signs it. But, it certainly is their business how they want to make money, and feel like they arent getting porked by flippers making a mint off of their sigs. Its america at it's finest. If you dont like the way they're doing business, move along to someone else. I have encountered several that charged extra, and I was happy to pay it. Sakai even does an extra little doodle for folks paying the slab premium! On your business comment I would like to add a follow-up... - I'd like to know how many flippers on eBay have a business license. - I'd like to know how many of them pay income tax on their intrastate internet sales (Note I stated intrastate). - I'd like to know how many of them pay income taxes on the income generated from their flipping activities. - I'd like to know how many of them are paying sales tax on their sales if they are setting up at a convention. I think it would be entertaining to find out what percentage do any of the above. And after you find that out, you can find out how many of the writers/artists report all those cash sales of autographs, sketches or other things. Or at least accurately report that income. I'm not curious about what you brought up. I guess you are as you brought it up. Have at it. I would like to see the IRS drop the 1099 reporting level to 1K. I think you'd see some interesting things happen if Paypal had to issue them at that level. I honestly don't really care about either. I was just being a smart a$$. But I'll bite, why are you curious about what you brought up?
	8 years ago	Post 64 • IP flag post

Collector 841	841 Jeremy_K private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
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	8 years ago	Post 65 • IP flag post

Collector 841	841 Jeremy_K private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by VictorCreed Quote: Originally Posted by Jeremy_K There was a creator who wanted around $250 for a sketch on the Harley Quinn comic where she is stealing a painting and the painting is blank. If you know the comic I'm talking about it isn't worth slabbing if you are looking to make a buck. This would be a very small head sketch that would take 5 minutes. How can any reasonable person put $250 into a simple little head sketch on a $5 book. Point being I think the artist needs to take a little look at the situation. As in i'll do the sketch for $25 and whom do I make it out to. Or sure little kid I'll sign your beat up comics and charge these adults behind you. Maybe she didn't want to sketch at all so set a crazy price. The guy is notorious for charging a lot. Another board member once said it best "Have fun at the Con, and make sure to pay NA $5 if you make eye contact."
	8 years ago	Post 66 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics

You can find anecdotal evidence on almost anything. Nothing is certain, and this market of comics changes on a daily basis.

I've sold 9.4s with Lee's signature and reaped quite the profit. Many people on eBay aren't that savvy when it comes to selling on eBay. Sometimes people sell stuff that they're not sure of it's true value, sometimes people sell stuff on the cheap because they're cash strapped, or maybe that guy turned a really good profit by sitting on the book forever and a day.

But, you understand that that doesn't prove your point, right...? That you're basically arguing for creators not to be charging a slab surcharge, right...? BECAUSE the market is so unpredictable, then creators shouldn't be charging special prices for slabbers, because you never know if you've got a rookie in front of you, or a guy with a PhD in economics, right...?

If we're talking about what's fair, right...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ
I picked up a Batman 655 Kubert variant out of a dollar bin, and graded out to 9.6. I sold it for $275,well below market price. By the time I was done with grading and shipping I had about $25 invested in it. Compare that to the guy who will spend $150 for the same book raw, grade out to 9.8 and get $500 for the book. For every dollar I invested I got $11 back. For every dollar he invests he gets back (assuming he spent the same for grading) he got back $2.86.

It makes more sense for the guy to spend $200 to get $500, than it does to spend $25 and get $275. The other guy made $300, while you only made $250. He won. He made $50 more than you, minus fees. Same work. Same effort. Same costs.

I'll say it again: these examples do not work, because they are NOT REPEATABLE. That said, even if you could repeat it over and over again, who cares? If one guy turns $200 into $500, and does it 100 times, he's turned $20000 into $50000...while you've turned $2500 into $27500....he's still made $30,000, you've still only made $25,000. Which one do I pick...? Who cares what your return on the dollar is...?

But it doesn't work with comics, because...again...it's not repeatable. If you had 100 9.6 Batman #655 Kubert variants, you're not selling them all for $275. You'll sell them for a smaller and smaller and smaller amount...and you're certainly not FINDING 100 copies of Batman #655 variant in the dollar bin.

The only POSSIBLE exceptions are books like New Mutants #98, Batman Adventures #12, and Hulk #181...books that are ultra common, but still have voracious demand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by occ
The only people who know how much they made are the people selling them, and attempting to put every seller on the same level field and in the same economic circumstances is a futile exercise.

I don't think anyone's doing that at all. Frankly, it's nobody's business what "economic circumstances" a seller is in. That no one's concern but the seller's. I'm only talking about the reality of the market as it exists, and the market demonstrates that it's immensely risky, with very little reward, while creators have the impression that there's immense reward, with very little risk.

8 years ago

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Lonestar And after you find that out, you can find out how many of the writers/artists report all those cash sales of autographs, sketches or other things. Or at least accurately report that income. I would be willing to bet that some of them are scrupulous accounts, but a lot of them are not.
	8 years ago	Post 68 • IP flag post

I'm a #2. 11.57K	11.57K BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Personally, The "Eggs" and "Muffins" analogies? They are general items you can get from a million different people at a million different places 24 hours a day 7 days a week. They are NOT collectable or potentially rare pop culture items. Just a ridiculous comparison the even make. A Neil Adams, or Any other Creator Signature can be obtained from ONLY one source .... The Creator. If you want said signature it will be at a limited time, place and price of their choosing. If you don't agree with any of these rules and pricing your free to go try your luck flipping some eggs or muffins for a profit. IMHO, there is simply too much greed in the hobby by "Speculators" who are ONLY involved in the hobby and obtaining these signatures to try and turn a profit. They have no real interest in the Stories or Artwork, or for that matter even the Creator/Artist, Only weather they can Flip it for a profit. Im all for Capitalism! But for heavens sakes quit acting like the creator/artist owes you the right to turn a profit off of his work or signature. The Creator/Artist don't owe you Jack Squat beyond the published book they already created for your reading and viewing pleasure. Nothing more. Im ALL for them getting as much as they can. In fact, if it were me I would be monitoring the sales of the books and items with my signatures on them and charging accordingly. I also would not be concerned about alienating my true Fan base, as the vast majority of these flippers are only fans until the profit dries up. Once I see the prices start to fall and feel I have Bled the "Speculator/Flippers" for everything they're worth, and they move on to become "Fans" of the Next big thing? I then go back to signing for the true fans for a nominal $5-10 fee or even Free! Which after signing 10's of thousands of items is likely all my signature is now worth. Next up? I really cash in on the "Speculator/Flippers" with my new DNA sample signed books. I just spit on the cover! or for an extra fee I would be more than willing to smear a finger full of my fecal matter on it for you. Ahh.... ya just gotta love Capitalism!
	8 years ago	Post 69 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Personally, The "Eggs" and "Muffins" analogies? They are general items you can get from a million different people at a million different places 24 hours a day 7 days a week. They are NOT collectable or potentially rare pop culture items. Just a ridiculous comparison the even make.

What does them being collectable or potentially rare have to do with this situation?

There are a little less than 200 copies of New Mutants #98 in various flavors for sale on eBay right now.

I have, literally, my pick of any copy I want, in pretty much any condition I want.

The point isn't that they are available or not...the point is that Wal-Mart doesn't charge you a surcharge depending on what you plan to do with the purchase afterwards...and neither does anyone else.

THAT is the point, not their relative scarcity or abundance. If you want to insert other types of collectibles in that analogy, feel free: the point still stands. It's not the seller's business what I plan on doing with the item...whether it's a signature or a muffin...after I buy it.

Simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by br
A Neil Adams, or Any other Creator Signature can be obtained from ONLY one source .... The Creator.

Sure, but Neal Adams isn't the only creator signing. There are hundreds of creators at most big cons, so there's plenty to choose from. If the muffin and eggs analogy bothers you so much, pick any exclusive item, like the Midtown variants, or the Graham Crackers variants, or the Dynamic Forces variants, or the J. Scott Campbell variants, and then see if they charge a DIFFERENT PRICE...or even ASK...if you're planning to slab it.

They don't, because they know such a question would be absurd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by br
If you want said signature it will be at a limited time, place and price of their choosing. If you don't agree with any of these rules and pricing your free to go try your luck flipping some eggs or muffins for a profit.

No problem. Like I said, there are literally hundreds of creators at most big cons; there are PLENTY who will be perfectly happy to sign for a price *I* like, who understand the value of business.

I mean, do you see what you're saying...? You are literally telling creators to behave like the character "Comic Book Guy" from the Simpsons.

"I'll sign, fanboy, but you WILL pay my price, and you WILL come when and where I tell you, and you WILL like it!!"

Hey, who knows, it might work, because: addicts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by br
IMHO, there is simply too much greed in the hobby by "Speculators" who are ONLY involved in the hobby and obtaining these signatures to try and turn a profit. They have no real interest in the Stories or Artwork, or for that matter even the Creator/Artist, Only weather they can Flip it for a profit.

Agreed! That was true in the early 90's, and it's true now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by br
Im all for Capitalism! But for heavens sakes quit acting like the creator/artist owes you the right to turn a profit off of his work or signature.

Wait...so, the publishers, distributors, printers, and retailers DON'T have a right to turn a proft off of a creator's work...?

Uh oh! Someone better tell THEM!

And what if I DON'T make a profit...? Do I get a refund...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by br
The Creator/Artist don't owe you Jack Squat beyond the published book they already created for your reading and viewing pleasure. Nothing more.

Absolutely true. Except, you know, perhaps a measure of gratitude for spending your money to support said published book. But, you're right, that's practically nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by br
Im ALL for them getting as much as they can.

Sure! Wait, what's stopping you from donating all you earn to them...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by br
In fact, if it were me I would be monitoring the sales of the books and items with my signatures on them and charging accordingly.

GOOD! Maybe you can teach them that their signatures DO NOT automatically add value to anything they sign! I welcome such an accurate accounting of the Sig Series program!

Quote:

Originally Posted by br
I also would not be concerned about alienating my true Fan base, as the vast majority of these flippers are only fans until the profit dries up.

REALLY...? How do you know...? Did you take a survey...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by br
Once I see the prices start to fall and feel I have Bled the "Speculator/Flippers" for everything they're worth, and they move on to become "Fans" of the Next big thing?

True. And then where does that leave the creator, who alienated his "true fans" by charging them higher prices based on what they intended to do with the book...?

Without those people...oh, they certainly exist...what are these creators going to do when the fly-by-nights have moved on...?

I'll tell you, because I lived it: crickets. Empty tables. Artists practically begging for work (and yes, I have had creators ask me if I knew any editors. NAME creators.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by br
I then go back to signing for the true fans for a nominal $5-10 fee or even Free! Which after signing 10's of thousands of items is likely all my signature is now worth.

Oooo...I think all the ill will created during the "squeeze 'em for every penny they've got!!!" era will have soured those who remain quite a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by br
Next up? I really cash in on the "Speculator/Flippers" with my new DNA sample signed books. I just spit on the cover! or for an extra fee I would be more than willing to smear a finger full of my fecal matter on it for you.

Ahh.... ya just gotta love Capitalism!

Yeah, you lost me with this last bit. Good luck on that.

8 years ago

He sounds like a vegan who wants real mayonnaise to be vegan friendly. 1.53K	1.53K Instant_Subtitles private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I'm not getting into any arguments. Because the reality of it all is that all comic books have no value outside what it first sold for. The prices for vintage, rare, and more is solely based on supply and demand... NOT what one seller claims it is worth. So arguing about how much less/more an autograph makes the comic is no different than saying how much anybody's collection is worth. To you, it is what you paid in total. To another, more or less. Point being with the entirety of the flip-flop argument is that that a comic book -- regardless of condition and rarity -- is worth what it's original price would be when you include inflation/deflation of its region's currency. And yes, any added services can be added to the item's value. It's like what Shrewbeer originally said: A signature is a service fee. Meaning that if I paid cover price for a comic book and got the autograph for free, the comic is still worth what I paid. But if I bought a $5 comic, paid $5 for shipping, $20 to have it signed, and $50 for grading services... Guess what? To break even, I would have to sell the comic book for $80. Which makes the comic worth a minimum value be that much to me. Possibly more to my target buyers, and less to all others. But when it comes to services like this one, I like to remind myself that the "real world" (Ha!) does not have most of these creators receive royalty checks. They signed their rights to such in order to have any work, hoping to be the next Bob Kane or Jim Lee. So when they do ask for a certain amount, it is due to them having a reasonable doubt that their autograph is worth that much to their target audience. Which is not everybody. Because in the end, the autograph on whatever was signed will be based on historical significance in the long-run. And that is one example of leverage towards the means of obtaining more money. With the rest being grading/slabbing, supply/demand, and every rarity/sentimental value. But for now, the whole argument is based on "How much it is worth to me", not a discussion on how the entire bartering system works. Because that is where the validity of an autograph comes into play when you include the ideal target audience/fanbase. Nothing less, nothing more. Cheers.
	8 years ago	Post 71 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.42K	30.42K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@BigRedOne1944 Your dislike for capitalism or flippers does not make them wrong. While the hobby needs collector's who want to keep the books, one can only store so many. Selling some books clears room to buy others. Middle men including flippers (such as your local comic shop) do add some value to the hobby whether you like them or not.
	8 years ago	Post 72 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant_Subtitles

...It's like what Shrewbeer originally said: A signature is a service fee. Meaning that if I paid cover price for a comic book and got the autograph for free, the comic is still worth what I paid. But if I bought a $5 comic, paid $5 for shipping, $20 to have it signed, and $50 for grading services...

Guess what? To break even, I would have to sell the comic book for $80. Which makes the comic worth a minimum value be that much to me. Possibly more to my target buyers, and less to all others.

But when it comes to services like this one, I like to remind myself that the "real world" (Ha!) does not have most of these creators receive royalty checks. They signed their rights to such in order to have any work, hoping to be the next Bob Kane or Jim Lee...

I agree. You can purchase books that have been slabbed at auctions all the time for less than the cost of slabbing them + the shipping cost involved in that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944

A Neil Adams, or Any other Creator Signature can be obtained from ONLY one source .... The Creator.
If you want said signature it will be at a limited time, place and price of their choosing. If you don't agree with any of these rules and pricing your free to go try your luck flipping some eggs or muffins for a profit.

That's hilarious!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944

Im all for Capitalism! But for heavens sakes quit acting like the creator/artist owes you the right to turn a profit off of his work or signature.

They don't owe anyone anything besides the service they have charged for. If you want to pay the toll then pay the toll. If not, then move on. As I stated, to another line because it would have shortened the line I was in and cut some of my waiting time down. 'Cuz I'm waiting in the really real world and standing behind a fan boy that smells isn't fun.

My views on all the ROI talk in the thread...
Speculation is just that speculation. It doesn't mean that you are guaranteed anything. The market could go up or it might go down for the object you seek a ROI upon.

If a person believes that what they are buying is worth X but will increase in value to Y and wants a ROI on what they are purchasing then they set the level of that ROI that they are comfortable with. Is it a 1.00? More than a 1.00? I've no idea. That's up to each person. Kind of like what a buyer is willing to pay, isn't it?

What I do find entertaining is that people are shouting at creators for attempting to make a profit while saying that it hampers their path to a profit. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander. If you don't believe you can turn a profit based upon the cost involved in getting your product to market then don't do it. Better yet, you could save your money and set-up a private signing and lower the cost of the items you seek to sell. It allows you a better profit margin and you'll be able to set some of the terms in your event with the artist through your negotiations.

8 years ago

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Those saying things like getting upset at creators (and using dismissive language to do so, then wondering why others respond in kind...I digress but you, dear reader, might take note) for wanting to make a profit while arguing that it impedes their own profit are making false analogies. It's a bad (as in, logically inconsistent) argument, but it's made nonetheless, and almost no one challenges these bad arguments. Here's why it's a bad argument: Not all "profit" is the same. There are people who are entitled to "profit", and there are people who are not. The person(s) who is/are entitled to a "profit" is/are the one(s) who own(s) the capital and who took the risk, or the most risk. People with no capital, and no stake in the work, are not entitled to any of the profit which may or may not exist. The creators don't own the comic being signed. They have no stake in it. It does not belong to them. By the fundamental rules of economics, they have no right to the "profit" someone may or may not make. And, while the argument COULD be made that they might be entitled to the "added value" that their signature might bring (which is, itself, a dubious prospect), then the only thing they would be entitled to is a portion of the difference...IF ANY...between what a signed book and an unsigned book sell for in the same grade. So, if a Batman #608 in 9.8 sells for $125, and a Batman #608 in 9.8 SS sells for $175, the argument could be made that the signer(s) are entitled to a portion of the difference, minus fees. Obviously, no one's going to do that, but that's the only argument that even COULD be made. They wouldn't even be entitled to the entire difference, obviously, because they're not the one doing the bulk of the work...just like a creator isn't entitled to the full cover price of a comic book sold at a retail location...they make, perhaps, 20-40 cents...very roughly...of that $2.99 comic. If one is going to make an economic argument, one should follow that argument to its logical conclusion, right? Consider the home improvement analogy: it is a long established real estate truth that spending money on repairs prior to selling your home can, and usually does (or people wouldn't do it), add substantially more value to the property than the cost of those repairs. If I pay a painter $5,000 to paint my house, but that paint job adds $20,000 to the value...is that painter entitled to that "profit", or any portion thereof...? If I pay a pool company $25,000 to add a pool, but that pool adds $65,000 to the sale price of the property, is that pool company entitled to that "profit"...? Worse, does the painter and the pool company ASK you if you're planning on selling the house, and then tell you it's more expensive...for the same service, mind...because of that...? No, of course not, and none of you would tolerate it, rightfully so. It's not the painter's house...it's YOUR house. It's not the creator's comic...it's YOUR comic. They're not entitled to any profit...again, IF it exists...because it's not THEIR property...it's YOURS. And that's why saying "why can't the creators profit if you're going to (itself a dubious argument)?" is a logically inconsistent argument.
	8 years ago	Post 74 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	By the way...if some of these creators are so jealously greedy that they can't stand people "making money off their signatures"...despite the fact that lots of people make actual money off their WORK and TALENT and ABILITY and EFFORT...then there's nothing at all stopping them from obtaining their OWN copies, signing them, grading them, and selling them THEMSELVES. And some of them do that. But it's work. A lot of work. And without a lot of return. Grading companies OFTEN give creators "freebies", so it's a win-win for them, if they want to.
	8 years ago	Post 75 • IP flag post

I bought a meat grinder on amazon for $60 and it's changed my life. 27.13K	27.13K kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	It's funny when you think about it. The creators are paid the first go around with the published art. We are trying to create our own "hustle" by selling the art signed or sketched. We are getting paid for our logistical services of running around, getting the book signed, sketched, graded...we should get paid too, right? Middle man or not, we get the book to it's intended destination either way.
	8 years ago	Post 76 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @BigRedOne1944 Your dislike for capitalism or flippers does not make them wrong. While the hobby needs collector's who want to keep the books, one can only store so many. Selling some books clears room to buy others. Middle men including flippers (such as your local comic shop) do add some value to the hobby whether you like them or not. Lots of people provide a valuable service to others by doing the heavy lifting. It's a piece of cake to go to eBay and pay $199 for a STAR WARS #3 CGC SS 9.8 * JASON AARON * KENOBI ACTION FIGURE VARIANT * MARVEL...or less, JJ considers offers...than it is to do the heavy lifting of obtaining that book with this sig in 9.8 condition. What is the value of one's time worth? If you can't, or don't want to, get your books signed for yourself, there are people who provide this service, which has value to you. Not only that, there are lots of these so-called "flippers" who are, themselves, collectors...just like store owners...who do this so they can afford to build their collection. When you think about it, it's just silly. A creator puts his blood, sweat, and tears into a comic they create, and they only make a small portion of the price of that book, maybe 25 cents per copy...and no one bats an eye. But ask some to sign a comic for slabbing, all reason goes out the window, and they want all OR MORE of the supposed "profit" they assume that person in front of them is trying to make...? It's madness. These creators fundamentally do not understand the market, how it works, and they are actively being lied to by people who are self-serving and only looking out for their own profit, telling them they ought to "charge such and such, because people are making fat profits off your sig!" Madness. If someone is going to make an economic argument, make the ENTIRE argument, and point out to these creators that their signature IS NOT WORTH what they're charging. "But they can charge whatever they want!!!" - not in dispute. That's a specious argument, because no one is disputing they can charge whatever they want. Want to charge $10,000,000? Go for it. Knock yourself out. But you will KNOW that your sig isn't worth that. Same scenario, smaller scale. But SOME of them, if not MOST of them, CAN understand economics, and wouldn't be so quick to upcharge IF they understood this reality.
	8 years ago	Post 77 • IP flag post

Collector 85	85 Jack private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 7
	I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers.
	8 years ago	Post 78 • IP flag post

Collector 4.03K	4.03K VaComicsGuy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	The problem with some of these positions is that they presuppose what the "creator" is thinking, or what their intention is. What if. . . . . . the creator doesn't give a damn what we do with the book after getting it signed? What if their intention is to stick it to the grading companies? What if they feel they are entitled to more $ based not on the actual finalized value of the book, but for their time and effort for the actual signing itself? To use the painter analogy, the painter is not getting paid based on the value the paint creates. He is getting paid to paint, to apply color to the wall. In much the same way, the artist isn't getting paid for the value of the book, he is getting paid to apply color (ink) to the book. How many of us would really create something and then sit by quietly while we watched (1) a flipper (2) an AW (in some cases but not all) and (3) a grading company make money off of our creation, while being told we should be grateful? As for the position that the signature isn't worth the money, the fact that hundreds of people line up to pay (or complain that the lines closed out before they got their chance) proves that the signature DOES, IN FACT, add value (economic or otherwise), at least to those people that pay the requested mount. I'm not a fan of signatures. My 10 yr old is. He's already figured out that if he doesn't like what an artist is offering, move on.
	8 years ago	Post 79 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jack I think creators charging flippers more than regular fans makes a lot of sense. The only people that seem to have a problem with it are some of the flippers. Ok. So who's a "regular fan"...?
	8 years ago	Post 80 • IP flag post

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