Dispelling the myth of the INCENTIVE variant4358
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos Since I don't buy new comics, there are VERY few covers that would even catch my eye as being a hard to find variant. I understand why variants are made. It's desperation to get the print runs up, otherwise the comics aren't making enough profit to pay the overhead expenses. I think variants are bad for the industry. They convolute the ordering process and prevent publishers from knowing which story content is well received and which isn't. It forces stores to do a crap shoot on ordering because there are no usable sales trends. The interiors and the covers are printed separately, so paying for an artist to draw a new cover or going with a blank sketch cover is the cheapest way to sell the interior pages multiple times. In the end though, it stop collectors from being completists and that is where it hurts the industry. Harris Comics is a prime example of a dead company that no one is trying to collect as back issues. They were one of the first to produce 10 variants on every comic they produced. Who really wants 10 copies or even 5 copies of the same comic? I don't. Collectors are reliable. They'll buy a series just to keep the numbering intact. Readers and art aficionados are chasing after their favorite creators and have no vested interest in the characters or the company. I supported one indy comic and bought all the solicited variants. I did it to support a creator. After, I preordered the comic, I discovered that there was one store that forked out money for a cover that had not been solicited. So now I own 3 common covers and if I want the harder to get cover, I have to pay some jacked up price. I can't take any pride in what I bought through Diamond. I have to get online and figure out how many other covers they made without telling anyone. I might even be willing to track down one limited distribution cover, but I'm not going to do it on every comic for every issue for every series. My answer is to buy nothing and I save A LOT of money by buying nothing. Unexpected bills pop up and I just write a check. I don't have any remorse or regrets about not buying 5 covers of the same comic. |
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| Post 201 • IP flag post | ||
 I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
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Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Brevity is the ability to present the same amount of information using less words. While more information in some cases is better breaking a large topic into smaller portions can be a way to better present information. The breaks also allow for more discussion and more input on each topic. This increases the likelihood of a dialogue instead of a monologue. |
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| Post 202 • IP flag post | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by Tedsaid No, not you. Quote: Originally Posted by tedsaid Sure...IF you start with the faulty premise that they printed 100,000 of the regular, so they then printed 1,000 of the 1:100 incentive. It's a faulty premise because you don't know how much they print, of either. When you start with a faulty premise, everything after that necessarily fails. Quote: Originally Posted by tedsaid You've come up with a completely hypothetical scenario...your 100,000 regular copies (unknowable) ----> 1,000 1:100 incentive copies (unknowable) ----> 650 qualifying orders (unknowable) ----> 350 "extra copies" available for handouts and sales (unknowable), but I've yet to refute your conjecture with anything other than conjecture...? Really...? I mean, those numbers look great, they really prove your point...until you realize that they are pulled completely out of thin air. It is certainly true. Have you ever been to a Diamond Retailer Summit...? At these summits, there are 500 or more retailers present...all of whom get various incentive variants from the publishers for coming. Where do you think these come from...? And when Diamond sells their incentive overstocks, they don't just sell a few dozen copies...they sell hundreds, and sometimes thousands. Quote: Originally Posted by tedsaid Don't be offended...but you're STILL repeating an error, which is: you don't know what the actual print run is...for anything. No one does. So, you can't say...no one can say...except the publisher and printer, and they aren't talking...if an "actual print run was less than 200,000." So, if you keep starting with a faulty premise...that they're "printing 1,000 copies based on a 100,000 print run of the regular", neither of which you know NOR can confirm...everything that follows is necessarily faulty, too. And you also can't say "well, you haven't shown any ACTUAL proof of a giveaway that was demonstrably greater than the ratio would dictate", because those numbers are a SECRET. We don't KNOW how many they printed, we don't KNOW how many qualifying orders there were, we don't KNOW how many they made for promotional purposes...all we know is that there have been REGULAR instances of these incentives for sale, at GREATER NUMBERS, and GREATER VARIETY than would be suggested by a strictly run program based on "ratios." And again...if hypothetically they only need 650, and they know that BEFORE they are printing them...why are they printing 1,000 copies...? To fulfill some expectation of a segment of the public that they had no right to make in the first place...? Assuming they actually are printing 1,000 copies, which no one knows. Why not 800? Why not 1200? Why not 2000? We simply don't know, and the publishers aren't telling. But ASIDE from that, the publishers HAVE given away AND SOLD 1:100 variants and others. Go HERE: https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/402666-110-125-150-1100-are-distribution-numbers-not-print-run-numbers/?page=9 See Chuck Gower's excellent analysis in response to jaydogrules, along with the charts of incentive variants that have been recently sold as overstock over the last couple of years. Here's an example of a famous liquidation: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/05/15/marvel-liquidates-miracleman-1-10-in-all-its-variants/ Understand what I'm saying, here: for all we know, the publishers DO print to the ratios. They could! But we don't KNOW, and that's the issue. And...there's NO evidence that suggests they do this, and plenty of evidence that suggests they don't (such as the language of the incentive offers, the LACK of any language that indicates that those ratios are applied any other way, the giveaways of incentives in large quantities, the sales of incentives in large overstock bundles on a regular basis, etc.) Doesn't it just make a lot more sense to say "the publishers print what they want, for their own purposes, for reasons that they don't make public" than it does to make leaps and conjectures about what they do based on ordering formulas applied to sales numbers to derive potential print runs that may not, and likely does not, have any relation to either of those previous numbers....? What happened was, some people came along and said "gosh, I wonder how many of these they printed", then said "well, if I take the ratio (first mistake) and apply it to the sales numbers (second mistake) I can get an estimated print run of the variants!" And, because the numbers were neat and tidy, and the publishers didn't do anything to dispel the notion...because, of course, they LIKE the idea that people think their publications are rarer than they really are, mind...and VOILA! "1:50 variant? Comichron reports 56,274 print run, so that means they only printed 1,125 copies of the variant, VOILA!" Except that Comichron doesn't report print runs, and nothing the publishers have said has ever even hinted that they "print to the ratios"...and even if they did, we don't know what the print run of the regular cover actually is, and we have no idea how many were sold in the UK, and how many were sold in Hong Kong, and how many were sold in Australia, and we're using estimates to make further estimates, and we're so far down the rabbit hole, it's become useless. We KNOW how much of the print run of LOTDK #1 was orange: 25%. DC TOLD us that. We CAN make a reasonable estimate of the print run of that variant, because we know (it was reported in the comics press of the time) that the print run was about 850,000 copies. |
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| Post 203 • IP flag post | ||
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I remember an episode of King of Queens, when Doug found out his dog had died three times and his parents always went out and found another that looked just like it. And he didn't know the dog ever died. He thought his dog had lived 27 years. But the one he had now was actually Rocky IV. Then when his wife Carrie told him about it. He hated her. She responded that he needed to face life as it is and that life was not made of marshmallows. Doug told his wife he was mad at her, because it didn't matter if the world was made of marshmallows or we just THINK it is made of marshmallows. Either one of those and we are happy. But the truth would make us sad. She ruined his happiness with the ugly truth. Do you have any marshmallows? Suddenly I'm craving some.  |
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| Post 204 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos If I were you, this is where I'd put a cat playing with yarn pic, right...? However, I'm not you. As far as your opinion here goes, do you not understand how condescending it is to be lecturing other people on how you think they should express themselves...? Your points may be valid, or they may not...but what business is it of yours to tell other people how they should post, especially when you've shown no concern whatsoever for me as a human being? You've demonstrated quite the contrary, in fact. It would be one thing if what you said was from a position of caring concern; it's quite another from yours. IF I thought you cared about me, on any level, it would be much easier to consider what you had to say. And, lest you protest again about me lecturing about trolling, that's trolling we're talking about, not civil disagreement. Lecturing you about posting kitten with yarn pics as a harbinger of my "imminent suspension" isn't even close to the same level as you lecturing others about how they should post. I get it. You're offended by reading. Message received, multiple times. I'm not going to change my style, and you're not going to change yours. I don't lecture you about it...how about you afford everyone else the same courtesy...? Let's move on, shall we...? |
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| Post 205 • IP flag post | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by Logan510 By the way...each of Logan510's posts in this thread is trolling the ever-loving hell out of me. "Silicone backers" refers to a conversation on Ditch's board. Same with the other comments. Same with the Cassini thread. He knows it, and he knows I know it, which is why he does it. But he does it in such a way that people who don't know the back story...like moderation...won't pick up on it. Does it bother me...? To an extent, sure. That he gets away with it, certainly. Why it's tolerated, I have no idea. It's just poisoning the well, and to what purpose? To drive me off, Lord of the Flies style...? To get me permanently banned...? Probably. But it certainly does nothing for the supposed "community" that someone claimed we're a "part of." Any "community" with "members" that actively seek to drive other people off for the grave sin of daring to say things people don't like is no "community" at all. |
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| Post 206 • IP flag post | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by X51 I think a lot of what you're saying here is valid. Frankly, I think it takes all types. I am a big fan of Harris comics, specifically because they had variants, and I just bought another copy of Vengeance of Vampirella #1 Gold today because it was a good price. It's probably the 20th copy I own. I don't know that they had 10 covers to one comic...maybe towards the end...but they certainly fueled my desire to own them all. I don't buy new comics, for the very reasons you stated. It's too much. I love variants, and have since I discovered my first one, the Superman Logo variant to Justice League #3. I was hooked. I traded a VG/F-ish Silver Surfer #1 (1968) for my first copy...they were worth about the same. Oops. I still have that copy, plus about 20 more just like it. I get off on having multiple copies of books I like, or books that are worth money, or books that I like that are worth money. I like having 20 different covers of the same book. It's the completist in me. That makes me happy. I understand that not everyone sees things that way, and I respect that. I get nothing out of new books. I haven't bought more than about 20 new books since about 2006. They just don't appeal to me. I've got a very comfortable niche, and that's about the start of Silver Age to about 2005. Golden Age, aside from Batman, doesn't appeal to me. Modern stuff doesn't make sense to me. And I think the endless renumbering of series will eventually be the single greatest factor in the collapse of back issue collecting. When people saw Action Comics #800 on the shelf, they knew there were 799 other issues to track down, even if they couldn't afford them. Now...who knows? It's a convoluted disaster, and no one short of a PhD will be able to piece it together...and no one will want to, either. We'll see. Having 500 variants of an issue is too much, but if the market continues to pay for these things, that's what the market, sadly, is going to continue to get. |
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| Post 207 • IP flag post | ||
 Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown A print run of 100,000 / 1,000 wasn't a premise; it was a hypothetical example. My premise is: the incentive ratio is the same as the printing ratio. My hypothetical example simply illustrates how that is possible, even though Diamond and the publishers routinely give away or sell leftover variants. Your premise is: because the publishers do not explicitly say that my premise is correct, it must be false. And, oddly, that most people's assumptions about the implication of a 1:XXX ratio are wrong "because they are stupid." I prefer my premise. It would be smarter for the publishers to do it that way, and follows from the evidence. That's how you write a succinct post. Just because you are a completest doesn't mean you have to repeat all of your arguments in every post. ;-) |
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| Post 208 • IP flag post | ||
 He sounds like a vegan who wants real mayonnaise to be vegan friendly.
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Instant_Subtitles private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Does that quote include nadabig? Because he sounded like he was "fun" to talk to. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Tedsaid Premise, hypothetical example; in this case, the same thing. You start with numbers pulled out of thin air, and, conveniently, make them fit your point. Quote: Originally Posted by tedsaid No, to both points. And the flaw in your "summation" of "my premise" (which isn't my premise) is the incorrect statement "because the publishers do not explicitly say that my premise is correct, it must be false", which you rightly point out does not follow; instead, it should be "because the publishers do not explicitly say my premise is correct, I cannot therefore just assume that it is true." My premise is: because publishers do not explicitly say that ratios are related to anything beyond ordering formulas, it is a mistake and a leap of logic to try and shoehorn those formulas into "estimated print runs." And "most" (itself an assumption...how do you know it's most people?) people's assumptions about the implication of a 1:X ratio are wrong because they are lazy, and those numbers are appealing and easy to misuse. It's a concession that you don't acknowledge (acknowledging concessions isn't a strong suit around here.) Your premise requires a ton bunch of mental gymnastics to work; mine simply relies on the freedom of publishers to print what they want, for reasons of their own. Quote: Originally Posted by tedsaid What evidence does it follow...? You start with an assumption: that the ratios have something to do with the print runs...and go from there. That's an assumption; no one knows if that's the case, because the publishers aren't telling. And the evidence we do have...that those ratios are for ordering purposes, and no other purpose is mentioned; that publishers print much more than is needed for these incentives for promotional purposes; that publishers frequently "blow these incentives out" in sales...all of that points to them printing what they want, for their own purposes, rather than being tied to an ordering formula whose connection to the print run isn't explicitly stated anywhere, by any publisher. Quote: Originally Posted by tedsaid So you say. I have a different view. And the word is "completist"; the word "completest" means "most complete", which is not what I think you mean. |
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| Post 210 • IP flag post | ||
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown I own multiple copies of comics. There's nothing wrong with believing in something and buying extra. It's another thing being forced to buy 5 copies just to have a complete set. There is no sense of pride in collecting at that point. The publishers are treating their customers like mice in a maze. It's like having a carrot dangling from a stick to make a donkey walk forward. I find it insulting. The problem is that it actually works and people are doing exactly what they want. In the absence of any alternatives, the best I can do is quit making it work on me. Vampirella had some nice variants. Do you really want to collect 7 covers for Vampirella: Revelations #0? or 7 covers for XIN: Legend of The Monkey King #1 along with the ashcan? I'm not saying that people aren't buying back issues. I'm saying Harris Comics should have a fan base of collectors trying to buy every issue, but most people are looking at the list of products and thinking "this set isn't for me." A completist is not going to do that. A completist would take pride in his/her collection and want everything produced by the company they liked. Price guides can't even keep up with listing which variants exist. It's very disappointing. I'll probably read a dozen articles this year about people being baffled as to why comic sales are so low. To me, it's a "no brainer". |
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| Post 211 • IP flag post | ||
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I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
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drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @DocBrown When I made a valid point you responded with the Millennial video. Your response was a direct insult to my intelligence. You did not post a vague meme like the kitten thing, no you disregarded my point that less can sometimes be more and instead of considering that I might have been trying to add to the discussion you straight up insulted me. Most responses I have gotten from you have in any thread have either been condescending or ignored anything I was hoping to add to the conversation. You seem to prefer talking at me (and others) to talking to me. I am not offended by reading, I am offended by your attitude and behavior. If my response to all of this has you puzzled I would share a simple quote with you. "Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you". |
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