Dispelling the myth of the INCENTIVE variant4358
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos What is it about "walls of texts" that you find so offensive...? Did you watch the video I posted? I think many of your responses throughout this board, to multiple people, are condescending and rude, but I don't take it upon myself to police you about it. So what gives you that right...? And who said anything about expecting anyone's response to be of a certain kind? You're projecting your own feelings onto me. Surely...surely!...you understand the difference between civil disagreement and plain trolling, do you not...? Which do you think your "kittens with yarn" pics are...? |
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 Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown It was Diamond. You say the rules are different now, and I believe you. But you don't specify the flaw in my argument. I believe Diamond STILL orders extras of some comics, based on their knowledge and experience, in order to provide a little bit of flexibility to comic shop owners. It would only make sense to do that. If you have different information, I'd be happy to hear it. If you have a different opinion, I've already heard it. This is for regular comics, of course, but also applies to incentives, in the example I gave previously. Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Actually, I can have it both ways. They print in excess, but in the same ratios. It ain't rocket science. |
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Whenever threads like this one develop, and the interaction within them between posters as exhibited in this thread are allowed to continue - I wonder if “clicks” and the activity search engines track play a part in the decision to allow them to carry on? Oh, that’s right. I’m a mod at another place. I know the answer to that. | ||
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TheComicMint private msg quote post Address this user | |
| hey folks, Steven Finkel from the comic mint here. interesting discussion about ratio/incentive variants. Im happy to discuss our ultimate edition offerings with you guys since it seems there are questions and our book/offering is being possibly questioned. | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
| To those who have made a genuine, honest effort to have a good discussion about a topic that interests some of us: kudos. I hope we can carry this discussion on. I only ask that the efforts to derail the conversation are noted and dealt with, appropriately. No "community" can survive if it behaves like the Lord of the Flies, with a small group of dedicated members deciding among themselves who is allowed to participate, and who is not, and abusing both the mechanisms and interpersonal systems of moderation to effect their own decrees about just who, and who is not, acceptable to have around. If you wonder who those people are, look no further than the people who bring up others being permanently banned. That's not how "communities" work. |
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by det_tobor This is NOT a public forum. If it was, we would have heard from DarthLego several times already. Remember, self editing is your friend. |
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Double post delete | ||
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det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by conditionfreak You're ABSOLUTELY right...it's a MEMBERS ONLY forum. Means there are house rules and usually a mod. Good reminder. Thanks. |
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TheComicMint private msg quote post Address this user | |
| sorry... seems like I've landed in the middle of something and perhaps not the best time/place to address questions. | ||
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 Suckin' on a chili dogOutside the Tastee Freez. |
RexMuff private msg quote post Address this user | |
Yea, @TheComicMint, not sure if the actual subject is the actual subject anymore  |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Tedsaid I've specified the flaw in your argument multiple times. Here it is again: your premise is that Marvel, DC, and others print to the ORDERING FORMULA ratios, because to do otherwise would be lying to their customers. However...Marvel, DC, et al, have never said, anywhere, that those ratios have anything to do with print runs...they are only an ordering formula. Therefore, to attempt to apply an ORDERING FORMULA to the print run is a leap that isn't justified by what we know about the program. There's nothing "deceitful" (and this is where you are stuck, along with those who think the same way) about printing whatever they want, because there's no implication, nor should any inference be made, that the ORDERING FORMULA has ANYTHING to do with the print run. None. Therefore, to presume it does is an invention, a conjecture. And, we know they "violate" that on a regular basis. Again, what's more likely? That Marvel, DC, et al HAVE made it plain that the ORDERING FORMULA is ALSO the PRINT FORMULA (which would still be unknown, since we don't have the PRINT INFORMATION for the REGULAR BOOK), and that they routinely violate this and lie to the whole world by printing quite a bit more than they need...? Orrrrr....that they simply print what they want, and don't reveal why or how much, owing nothing to anyone by way of information? Which is more likely? Doesn't Occam's Razor apply here at all...? Quote: Originally Posted by tedsaid That was certainly true when there were multiple distributors, and Diamond wasn't the biggest. They had to compete with others, and the way to do that was to say "hey, we've got that book available, Cap City doesn't...why not come with us?" Now, however, Diamond is a monopoly. They are essentially the funnel for the publishers to get to the retailers. There is no one else anymore. So there's no longer any need for Diamond to "order extras", and, in fact, I believe (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Diamond doesn't even TAKE orders "for itself" any more; that they lack both the mechanism and the logistics to be able to do that...because, again, they're just the funnel for the publishers. Quote: Originally Posted by tedsaid No, it ain't. However, again...if Marvel, DC, et al KNOW exactly how many they need BEFORE the books are printed...why would they print more than they need...again, by your reasoning...just to fulfill an arbitrary ratio that has nothing to do with the print runs in the first place...? Because of the (faulty) suppositions of some segment of the public...? If you can find me anything...anything at all...that shows that Marvel, DC, et al (and that will need to apply to ANY of them; just one or two only accounts for that one or two) use their ORDERING FORMULA as THE determination of the print runs of their variants, by all means, share. |
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Suckin' on a chili dog Outside the Tastee Freez. |
RexMuff private msg quote post Address this user | |
| And....IBTL🥃 | ||
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 I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
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drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by RexMuff IBTL |
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| Post 163 • IP flag post | ||
 He sounds like a vegan who wants real mayonnaise to be vegan friendly.
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Instant_Subtitles private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by TheComicMint I would take you up on that offer, but I am busy trying -- and failing -- to find information on a purchase I made a few weeks ago. Outside the fact it exists, there are no price guide listings and UDON has yet supplied any information about it. And if the topic did not do a possible CBCS off-track, I would have mentioned it as an example that even ratio covers do not guarantee a long-term investment. But now I am waiting for somebody to spot an actual on-topic reply while quoting Ghost Adventures. |
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det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user | |
| while I have a great deal of respect for accurate info, I also remember that bit of sage advice: While the pen is mightier than the sword, it does no good to have great writings that don't get read. Your audience doesn't learn anything and you spent all that time and energy but didn't accomplish anything. loss/loss |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by det_tobor Another wise sage also said this: "while some may protest, there is a wider audience that is silent and watching. You never know who is in that crowd, and what they may absorb." |
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by conditionfreak You mean the guy who has 20K+ in green thumb clicks? Gone, but not forgotten. |
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I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
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drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Wow! Just wow! | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I agree! | ||
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Suckin' on a chili dog Outside the Tastee Freez. |
RexMuff private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I miss Darth☹️🥃 | ||
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by det_tobor +1 |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I miss Darth, too. No one should be banned permanently. | ||
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Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by RexMuff IBLT...me too. |
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Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock
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Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by TheComicMint LOL ... yeah, kind of. I'll catch you up. Incentive variants, such as 1:20 covers, 1:100, etc., are commonly thought to represent printing ratios as well. DocBrown attempted to dispel that notion. Others - including myself - disagreed. So ... any insight, Steven? Do the publishers feel some responsibility to print covers in the same ratios as the incentive structure? Or can they print as many extra copies of, for example, a 1:100 variant as they want, with no concerns of being deceitful? If you have links to public statements by the publishers on that, btw, that would be very helpful! |
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I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
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drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
I for one praise our ant overlords. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Tedsaid You've phrased your questions here to lead to your conclusion...just sayin'.... |
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X51 private msg quote post Address this user | |
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Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Please don't get this thread locked. Do you guys realize how hard it is to be a (self) noted comics historian with literally hundreds if not thousands of posts "published" on comic message boards? Please, have some respect for all the hard work. |
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| Post 178 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Tedsaid Here, I'll phrase it in the opposing view: For well over a decade...perhaps 2002 for Dreamwave, 2004 for DC, Marvel, etc...publishers have used what is called the "incentive variant" to get retailers to order additional copies of regular books. In the language that the publishers have used...and here is an example: http://www.diamondcomics.com/Home/1/1/3/819?articleID=110712 ...publishers have never represented their "ratios" as anything other than that: ordering formulas by which retailers can qualify to obtain/purchase the incentive. It is, therefore, presumptuous and erroneous to extrapolate those ratios as applying to the print runs of the various incentives. While I agree that it is certainly appealing to want to USE these numbers to come up with answers that have not been forthcoming from the publishers, it is, ultimately, an error to do so. Furthermore, we know that the publishers have routinely printed substantially in excess of what has been needed to fulfill qualifying orders, because 1. they have handed out incentive variants at various retailer conferences, sometimes long after the books were originally published, and 2. they have had sales of incentive variants through Diamond long after the books were originally published. So, either there is a scandal going on on a massive scale, and the publishers both stated that the ratios are, in fact, tied to print runs, and then ignored those ratios for their own gain, lying to their customer base, and having foreknowledge about which variants would become valuable on the aftermarket.... ...or, the publishers state the ratios for qualifying order purposes only, and print what they want, for whatever reason they want, without regard to what the public may or may not believe. Which, then, is the more likely scenario...? |
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det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown It works for answering open ended questions the same way. The form and length of the answer can be whatever way he needs it to be. |
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