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Dispelling the myth of the INCENTIVE variant4358

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I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.31K	30.31K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	@DocBrown I think there are some who would beg to differ.
	8 years ago	Post 126 • IP flag post

Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock 7.34K	7.34K Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by conditionfreak Valid points yourself. But if I have observed anything in life. I have observed that it is amazing what people will do for a relatively small amount of money. And one man's "small amount of money" is another man's small fortune. Yeah, that's definitely true. I would be surprised if the printer fraud ran in the hundreds of copies of these books ... but not greatly surprised. I wouldn't be shocked at all about a few dozen.
	8 years ago	Post 127 • IP flag post

Collector 814	814 det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by conditionfreak Oh, make no mistake about it. I LOVE a good debate. Not an argument, but a debate. Sometimes I fight for a stance on a subject that I don't even agree with. It's fun. But I know that some people don't handle strife well. The internet is not the place for people like that. They should read books about rainbows and unicorns. BUT you also know that some people forget "rules" and think they can say whatever they want always. They forget the rule of thumb: No shouting "fire" in a movie theatre. There are established limitations. Self editing may be a necessity.
	8 years ago	Post 128 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 11.29K	11.29K conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Quote: Originally Posted by det_tobor Quote: Originally Posted by conditionfreak Oh, make no mistake about it. I LOVE a good debate. Not an argument, but a debate. Sometimes I fight for a stance on a subject that I don't even agree with. It's fun. But I know that some people don't handle strife well. The internet is not the place for people like that. They should read books about rainbows and unicorns. BUT you also know that some people forget "rules" and think they can say whatever they want always. They forget the rule of thumb: No shouting "fire" in a movie theatre. There are established limitations. Self editing may be a necessity. Oh, I disagree. What if the movie theater IS on fire Ha Ha
	8 years ago	Post 129 • IP flag post

Collector 814	814 det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by conditionfreak Quote: Originally Posted by det_tobor Quote: Originally Posted by conditionfreak Oh, make no mistake about it. I LOVE a good debate. Not an argument, but a debate. Sometimes I fight for a stance on a subject that I don't even agree with. It's fun. But I know that some people don't handle strife well. The internet is not the place for people like that. They should read books about rainbows and unicorns. BUT you also know that some people forget "rules" and think they can say whatever they want always. They forget the rule of thumb: No shouting "fire" in a movie theatre. There are established limitations. Self editing may be a necessity. Oh, I disagree. What if the movie theater IS on fire Ha Ha You know the general rule: There's always exceptions to every rule.
	8 years ago	Post 130 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Tedsaid Because Marvel KNOWS it's not a $4.99 book, but a $200 book. (Or more.) So yeah, I think they have some controls in place to prevent significant fraud, in the comic book industry. The owner doesn't want to risk losing millions in annual revenue for 10 or 20 comic books. And, IMO, there is no way they will risk routinely printing HUNDREDS of extras in this way. It's too easy to get caught and loose your job / business. One more thing: your entire counterargument rests on the unproven premise that Marvel, DC, et al are LYING to their customers if they don't "print to the ratio." If you start with that premise, you're naturally going to come to the conclusions you do. But if the premise itself is invalid, then what follows is necessarily invalid, too. Again: Marvel, DC, et al have never claimed...ever...that they print their ratio incentives TO the ratios. Those numbers..."1:X"...are an ordering formula; nothing more, and nothing less. As well: we know that Marvel, DC, et al have routinely handed out hundreds and thousand of copies of ratio incentives at retailer conferences and the like, far in excess of the amount required to fulfill qualifying orders plus overages. As well: we know that Marvel, DC, et al have routinely sold, through Diamond, hundreds and thousands of copies of ratio incentives on a fairly regular basis, far in excess of the amount required to fulfill qualifying orders plus overages. There's no "open secret" here, because there's no lie. The answer is quite simple: Marvel, DC, et al print what they want, for reasons of their own, which they do not reveal, and which have nothing to do with the ORDERING FORMULA.
	8 years ago	Post 131 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.31K	30.31K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@conditionfreak Show of hands, who else has yelled "Movie" in a crowded fire house?
	8 years ago	Post 132 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Tedsaid Quote: Originally Posted by conditionfreak Valid points yourself. But if I have observed anything in life. I have observed that it is amazing what people will do for a relatively small amount of money. And one man's "small amount of money" is another man's small fortune. Yeah, that's definitely true. I would be surprised if the printer fraud ran in the hundreds of copies of these books ... but not greatly surprised. I wouldn't be shocked at all about a few dozen. Again: no one knows what variant is going to be valuable before it is printed. No one. There's no incentive for fraud, because no one knows which books are going to be valuable, and the vast, vast majority of them are not. Interesting theory...but it doesn't hold water. Sorry.
	8 years ago	Post 133 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @DocBrown I think there are some who would beg to differ. Then they are welcome to participate in the hundreds of other threads on this board. No one is forcing them to read and/or participate in this one. Do you just not see the cognitive dissonance, here...?
	8 years ago	Post 134 • IP flag post

Collector 814	814 det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @conditionfreak Show of hands, who else has yelled "Movie" in a crowded fire house? No, but I did bring the popcorn.
	8 years ago	Post 135 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.31K	30.31K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by det_tobor Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @conditionfreak Show of hands, who else has yelled "Movie" in a crowded fire house? No, but I did bring the popcorn. A wise decision.
	8 years ago	Post 136 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 11.29K	11.29K conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @conditionfreak Show of hands, who else has yelled "Movie" in a crowded fire house? I have watched a movie in a fire house. But didn't feel the need to shout about it.
	8 years ago	Post 137 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.31K	30.31K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 5
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @DocBrown I think there are some who would beg to differ. Then they are welcome to participate in the hundreds of other threads on this board. No one is forcing them to read and/or participate in this one. Do you just not see the cognitive dissonance, here...?
	8 years ago	Post 138 • IP flag post

Collector 14.75K	14.75K X51 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by det_tobor Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @conditionfreak Show of hands, who else has yelled "Movie" in a crowded fire house? No, but I did bring the popcorn.
	8 years ago	Post 139 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 11.29K	11.29K conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	It's funny to me. How on a Saturday night, I can't get into a discussion bout anything here. But on a Sunday night, I can't get out of a discussion about anything here.
	8 years ago	Post 140 • IP flag post

Collector

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Attempting to be a Captain Bring-Down over them just isn’t the direction in life I would choose to follow.

"Hey! You're heading for a cliff! Watch out! Turn around before you fall off! At the very least, pay attention to where you're going!" = "Captain Bring-Down", right...?

Encouraging people to think critically, rather than emotionally, which reaps tremendous benefits to those who take the advice (it certainly does and will continue to do so for me, and everyone else I know) is a good thing, but to you, it's characterized as "Captain Bring-Down."

As for the rest, no one forced you to reply to this thread, or even read it. If you want to be the actual "Captain Bring-Down", that's your choice, but there's no denying that's what it is.

What is your motive...? That people should think with their emotions, rather than reason...? How does that make any sense...?

DocBrown, 5 months ago I received a vacation and a warning from Jesse_O about interacting with you. At that time, both you and I got vacations for our interaction on the forum. I don't know if you received the same warning that I did but I have followed what it stated, and the instructions provided within it to the letter. This is the second time in this thread you have quoted me for whatever reason.

Please stop quoting me in your posts or attempting to interact with me.

1. You are incorrect. You broke the ban. I can even show you where. I did not interact with you until you interacted with me. How do I know that? Because I'm a pain in the ass when it comes to details...obviously.

2. You have actively participated in this thread, but now you're telling me to not respond to you...? How, praytell, does that work...?

Here's an example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
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Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
"flawed data" should not be ignored?
Wow - is that like one should plant a live rock or ride a hornless unicorn?

As of today I've officially heard everything.

I'm assuming you and @docbrown refuse to look at the CGC census, and hope CBCS doesnt release one as well, coz its flawed data, so it should be ignored? Tell me again how the census is akin to a hornless unicorn as well.

Flawed or not, to completely ignore data is foolish, and @DocBrown telling people to completely ignore data because its not 100% accurate feels communist. Buyer beware, and be mindful of ALL evidence; not just the evidence that suits your argument.

Not that the other points made are not valid. The Variants market IS deceptive, and to some degree fraudulent. But dont go thinking an estimated incentive run of 500 has thousands of extras sitting in a warehouse somewhere. Any extras will hit the market from giveaways or any other of the methods discussed already; if there are too many and the market feels it, the variant becomes worthless.

Did you happen to notice that the entire thread is opinion based information? That it is all based upon conjecture and guesswork about what a print run might be for certain publishers? Kind of like standing in front of the Great OZ and having him say to not look behind the curtain, isn't it?

That said, by all means, stop interacting with me. I would dearly love it if you stopped referring to me in any way, and I would be thrilled to respond in kind.

8 years ago

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @DocBrown I think there are some who would beg to differ. Then they are welcome to participate in the hundreds of other threads on this board. No one is forcing them to read and/or participate in this one. Do you just not see the cognitive dissonance, here...? These kinds of posts should result in suspensions. They're just trolling because: angry.
	8 years ago	Post 142 • IP flag post

Collector 814	814 det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by conditionfreak It's funny to me. How on a Saturday night, I can't get into a discussion bout anything here. But on a Sunday night, I can't get out of a discussion about anything here. What can I say other than that quote NOT on the other thread: What a difference a day makes!!
	8 years ago	Post 143 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	To drchaos and any others who are unhappy with this thread, but still feel the need to post in it: I would appreciate if you didn't get this thread locked. It's a good discussion, and posting trolling memes is just going to accomplish getting it locked. Thanks.
	8 years ago	Post 144 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.31K	30.31K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @DocBrown I think there are some who would beg to differ. Then they are welcome to participate in the hundreds of other threads on this board. No one is forcing them to read and/or participate in this one. Do you just not see the cognitive dissonance, here...? These kinds of posts should result in suspensions. They're just trolling because: angry. When you see a kitten with a ball of yarn it is usually because it is you that is on the verge of a suspension. With that said, how is posting a picture of a kitten worthy of a suspension? Who doesn't love kittens?
	8 years ago	Post 145 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos When you see a kitten with a ball of yarn it is usually because it is you that is on the verge of a suspension. With that said, how us posting a picture of a kitten worthy of a suspension? Who doesn't love kittens? There's no reason for me to "be on the verge of a suspension"...I haven't done anything that would merit one. I am well aware of the fact that many of you think "posting walls of text" or "challenging the ill-informed opinions of others" are suspension worthy, because many of you just cannot handle opposing arguments, but that doesn't make it so. Your spurious speculation and disingenuousness aside... To drchaos and any others who are unhappy with this thread, but still feel the need to post in it: I would appreciate if you didn't get this thread locked. It's a good discussion, and posting trolling memes is just going to accomplish getting it locked. Thanks.
	8 years ago	Post 146 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 11.29K	11.29K conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	IBTL, one more time.
	8 years ago	Post 147 • IP flag post

Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock 7.34K	7.34K Tedsaid private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Tedsaid So in my example above, Diamond might increase their order to 90,000, instead of 89,000. They would get 900 of the variant, and have to give only 650 of these to the comic stores. (This is because some comic stores might order 60 and not get any of the 1:100 variant; or perhaps 160 and get only 1. That's what I meant by "non-ratio-based sales to stores." ) In this example, Diamond has about 1% extra of the main comic to sell to comic shop owners, AND they have about 250 extra (very rare) variants. What does "very rare" mean...? Are you aware that there are literally THOUSANDS of incentive variants, if not TENS of thousands, that have little to no value...? Duh, yeah, I know that. "SO IN MY EXAMPLE ABOVE..." See? I was talking about a 1:100 variant. That's what I meant by "very rare" here. C'mon, Doc, if you keep misconstruing my points, we'll never get anywhere in this discussion. Anyway, you keep talking about DC and Marvel and Diamond giving away "hundreds of thousands of these incentive variants." But I think the ultimate flaw in your argument is that you take a few facts, whip up some hand waving, and don't actually do the math. I already showed how Marvel, DC, and Diamond can have hundreds of extra copies of a variant on hand, even with a strict printing-ratio policy to match advertised incentive ratios. And that was for a 1:100. It works for all the other variants, too, of which there are many, every single month. And they easily add up to "hundreds of thousands of these incentive variants" for give-aways at an annual - or even semi-annual - event. Especially if the give-aways represent when Marvel, DC, or Diamond guessed wrong on the printing vs. sales and have a LOT of extras on hand.
	8 years ago	Post 148 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.31K	30.31K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@DocBrown The thread and the topic of discussion are fine with me. Some of the posts including walls of text and those that are condescending to other participants, or just plain rude I have chosen to respond to. You are part of a community. Just because you start a thread does not mean that you get to dictate how others should respond or expect that your responses should be taken as gospel.
	8 years ago	Post 149 • IP flag post

Collector 814	814 det_tobor private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by conditionfreak IBTL, one more time. Remember: movie house...fire....no self editing. public forum in use. please be considerate of others.
	8 years ago	Post 150 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos @DocBrown The thread and the topic of discussion are fine with me. Some of the posts including walls of text and those that are condescending to other participants, or just plain rude I have chosen to respond to. You are part of a community. Just because you start a thread does not mean that you get to dictate how others should respond or expect that your responses should be taken as gospel. What is it about "walls of texts" that you find so offensive...? Did you watch the video I posted? I think many of your responses throughout this board, to multiple people, are condescending and rude, but I don't take it upon myself to police you about it. So what gives you that right...? And who said anything about expecting anyone's response to be of a certain kind? You're projecting your own feelings onto me. Surely...surely!...you understand the difference between civil disagreement and plain trolling, do you not...? Which do you think your "kittens with yarn" pics are...?
	8 years ago	Post 151 • IP flag post

Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedsaid
But from my example above, Diamond (I'm assuming) ALSO has an incentive to order in groups of 100, and ALSO gets incentive copies.

Who was his distributor...? Diamond...? Cap City...? Bud Plant...? There were multiple distributors of comics in the 80's, when those two books were published, and those aren't incentive variants.

The rules are different, now, both for how comics are handled in general, and how incentive variants are handled specifically.

It was Diamond. You say the rules are different now, and I believe you. But you don't specify the flaw in my argument.

I believe Diamond STILL orders extras of some comics, based on their knowledge and experience, in order to provide a little bit of flexibility to comic shop owners. It would only make sense to do that. If you have different information, I'd be happy to hear it. If you have a different opinion, I've already heard it.

This is for regular comics, of course, but also applies to incentives, in the example I gave previously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBrown
Again: why would Marvel print 900 (or 1000) copies, if they know how many qualifying orders they received BEFORE THE BOOKS ARE PRINTED...? You can't have it both ways. Either they print to the ORDERING FORMULA, or they print what they want, for their own purposes, in excess of what they actually need to fulfill qualifying orders. Which is it...?

Actually, I can have it both ways. They print in excess, but in the same ratios. It ain't rocket science.

8 years ago

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Whenever threads like this one develop, and the interaction within them between posters as exhibited in this thread are allowed to continue - I wonder if “clicks” and the activity search engines track play a part in the decision to allow them to carry on? Oh, that’s right. I’m a mod at another place. I know the answer to that.
	8 years ago	Post 153 • IP flag post

Collector 40	40 TheComicMint private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	hey folks, Steven Finkel from the comic mint here. interesting discussion about ratio/incentive variants. Im happy to discuss our ultimate edition offerings with you guys since it seems there are questions and our book/offering is being possibly questioned.
	8 years ago	Post 154 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	To those who have made a genuine, honest effort to have a good discussion about a topic that interests some of us: kudos. I hope we can carry this discussion on. I only ask that the efforts to derail the conversation are noted and dealt with, appropriately. No "community" can survive if it behaves like the Lord of the Flies, with a small group of dedicated members deciding among themselves who is allowed to participate, and who is not, and abusing both the mechanisms and interpersonal systems of moderation to effect their own decrees about just who, and who is not, acceptable to have around. If you wonder who those people are, look no further than the people who bring up others being permanently banned. That's not how "communities" work.
	8 years ago	Post 155 • IP flag post

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