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Collector NilesPaine private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianGreensnips
@DocBrown Thats a good point. I just recently purchased a second print New Mutants#87, 9.8 candidate for $10. I bought it because I missed the boat on the first printing. But back them, yeah nobody wanted second prints. It has an UGLY briwn cover. Yuck.


Is it brown?? Seems more goldish from the pics. I'll probably grab a copy to go with first print. I just like that blacked out barcode. Shame it wasn't a white background. 😎
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COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
I think they realized they could do really cool stuff with second prints on Batman #608. Or was that just a fluke of luck?
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Collector Savage_Spawn private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by NilesPaine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage_Spawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by det_tobor
?? Just checked ebay recent sold listings. $200 gets a nice newsstand edition. Isn't that ok for you?


Damn, I got 10 of them!!!!


10 of . . . What say you!?!?


10 screw ups. Only one newstand in the batch... sorry, got carried away with greed....
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Why just the women? I like bears. Gaard private msg quote post Address this user
We just don't know, and Marvel has never released that info...ever...for ANY comic it has ever published.
Just curious...do you know why this is?
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Collector NilesPaine private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaard
We just don't know, and Marvel has never released that info...ever...for ANY comic it has ever published.
Just curious...do you know why this is?


I don't have an actual answer but maybe something along the lines of never show your cards to your opponent?? I don't know how that would help or hurt DC by revealing that but its a good place to start. Does DC reveal their print runs does anyone know??
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaard
We just don't know, and Marvel has never released that info...ever...for ANY comic it has ever published.
Just curious...do you know why this is?


Niles got it. Publishers want to reveal as little as possible, for competitive reasons. They released the SOOs because they were required to by (postal) regulation, but once mailing comics via subscription went away, away went the SOOs, and with it, information about print runs and particularly sales. And, even in the SOOs, they didn't reveal very many specifics, to the point that it's virtually impossible to nail down the print run, or even a reasonable estimation, for any comic book published, ever, if that information isn't released by the publisher.

The only source of information we have now is incomplete at best. Comichron reports Diamond's North American sales, but that's it. They are only sales numbers (and a LOT of people don't understand that, and equate those numbers with print runs), and they are only for one region...albeit, the largest...of English language comics. Those numbers ARE NOT related to the print runs of any of these books...they are only the amount of copies sold, during the initial sales period (does NOT count reorders!), through Diamond.

How many standard English language comics (that is, the ones that are for sale at your local comic shop) are printed for the UK? Don't know.

How many for Australia? Don't know.

How many for Hong Kong? Don't know.

How many are printed for newsstand distribution throughout the world? Don't know. We know that Marvel ceased newsstand distribution in 2011...but DC didn't, nor did Image, nor did Archie, etc.

Anyone trying to tell you that "thus and such many copies were printed" who is NOT an employee of a publisher, or who did NOT get that information officially from a publisher, almost certainly doesn't know what they're talking about. And anyone trying to use the "1:15" retailer order incentive numbers to convince others about the supposed print runs of a particular variant also don't know what they're talking about. Those ratios are for ordering purposes only, and have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with how many are printed, other than establishing a minimum amount necessary to fill orders. However, that's only a minimum, and the publishers can (and do, all the time) print much more than is necessary for their own purposes (promotional, etc.)

There has been a lot of nonsense written on message boards by the arrogantly ignorant who think they know, but the evidence has proven them wrong time and again...and sadly, such ignorance is encouraged by those who run those message boards (in particular, the CGC board.)

DC does not reveal their print runs, with some very, very limited exceptions. Rumors abound for books like Batman #608 RRP (200), and Sandman #8 Berger (~600), but those are just rumors, and never officially acknowledged by DC.
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
I think they realized they could do really cool stuff with second prints on Batman #608. Or was that just a fluke of luck?


Sure, Batman #608 was a way to publish a different cover (for which Lee had undoubtedly already been paid), but it didn't capture the collecting public's imagination like that cover to Batman #612 second print.

The original cover was an instant icon, which is why the 2nd print came about, but when people saw that sketch version...not the first "sketch variant" (Lady Death: The Crucible 1/2 had one similar several years earlier), but certainly DC's first...they went nutso over it.

And yes, the 2nd print to New Mutants #87 is a muddy "gold" bronze-ish color. Not their best one. I think, of all the gold and silver 2nd prints Marvel did in that era, the nicest one by far was Ghost Rider #5...though the X-Tinction Agendas were pretty sweet, too, even if they did fingerprint something awful.
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Collector NilesPaine private msg quote post Address this user
Well see this is interesting because I wonder if Marvel either prints lower now or only what they need to as a cost conservation. I was pretty surprised to see second printings of Edge Of Venomverse 1 2 and 3 and even the generations books as there are not much talk about them.

I also notice they don't do a new cover unless it goes to maybe say a 3rd or 4th print, which as I said are they just underprinting to save coin which also saves the industry from bursting again as they're not printing copies just for the sake of?? And to further that, it bodes well for resellers. Look at Totally Awesome Hulk. In general I think thats a lower printed book and now people are clamoring to get not even the hot one but older issues too.
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Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user




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Collector NilesPaine private msg quote post Address this user
nooooooo this was a solid thread too lol
Post 60 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user

Post 61 IP   flag post
Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Somebody hit the report flag and it looks like lots of posts went poof.
Post 62 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
There was some good information deleted. That's unfortunate. Essentially, when considering print runs for 80's books that were distributed to the newsstand, the newsstand run is going to be substantially higher than the Direct run, but because of the nature of newsstand distribution, 60-80% of that print run was returned for credit and destroyed (or stripped.) So, even though the print run for the newsstands were much larger than the print run for Direct copies, the number of surviving copies is a totally different story, with Directs almost certainly outnumbering newsstands at the end of the retail sales period.
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Collector BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user
My book Comic Book Store Wars will be finished soon.
In there I cover a concept no one here seems to have mentioned:

Affidavit Return Fraud.

I covered this in depth 25,000 words in Comic Book Artist #6 (1999) and #7 (early 2000) edited by Jon B Cooke published by TwoMorrow in an article series titled Secret Origins of the Direct Market.

Back in the 60s 70s the Returns on comic books went to an "honor" system from cover stripping especially coming out of the late 60s Batman TV show glut which caused a huge backlash about carrying 12 cent comic books of any sort.

By 1969 cover prices in USA went to 15 cents.

Soon thereafter cover prices went to 20 cents in attempts to entice distributors and periodical retailers to carry comic books again

We opened the first Comics and Comix outlet at 2512 Telegraph Ave near UC-Berkeley in late August 1972 just ten days after the first El Cortez Hotel San Diego comicon. Swamp Thing #1 debuted that week. Kirby New Gods, Forever People, etc were still coming out. Barry Smith Conan was all the rage.




If enough lost souls here seek to understand "affidavit return fraud" I will endeavor to explain same here
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If I could, I would. I swear. DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user

Post 65 IP   flag post
Collector NilesPaine private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBcomics
My book Comic Book Store Wars will be finished soon.
In there I cover a concept no one here seems to have mentioned:

Affidavit Return Fraud.

I covered this in depth 25,000 words in Comic Book Artist #6 (1999) and #7 (early 2000) edited by Jon B Cooke published by TwoMorrow in an article series titled Secret Origins of the Direct Market.

Back in the 60s 70s the Returns on comic books went to an "honor" system from cover stripping especially coming out of the late 60s Batman TV show glut which caused a huge backlash about carrying 12 cent comic books of any sort.

By 1969 cover prices in USA went to 15 cents.

Soon thereafter cover prices went to 20 cents in attempts to entice distributors and periodical retailers to carry comic books again

We opened the first Comics and Comix outlet at 2512 Telegraph Ave near UC-Berkeley in late August 1972 just ten days after the first El Cortez Hotel San Diego comicon. Swamp Thing #1 debuted that week. Kirby New Gods, Forever People, etc were still coming out. Barry Smith Conan was all the rage.




If enough lost souls here seek to understand "affidavit return fraud" I will endeavor to explain same here


Dooooooo tellllllllll. What good are we if we're not learning?!? Just sacks of meat I suppose 😎
Post 66 IP   flag post
If I could, I would. I swear. DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by NilesPaine
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBcomics
My book Comic Book Store Wars will be finished soon.
In there I cover a concept no one here seems to have mentioned:

Affidavit Return Fraud.

I covered this in depth 25,000 words in Comic Book Artist #6 (1999) and #7 (early 2000) edited by Jon B Cooke published by TwoMorrow in an article series titled Secret Origins of the Direct Market.

Back in the 60s 70s the Returns on comic books went to an "honor" system from cover stripping especially coming out of the late 60s Batman TV show glut which caused a huge backlash about carrying 12 cent comic books of any sort.

By 1969 cover prices in USA went to 15 cents.

Soon thereafter cover prices went to 20 cents in attempts to entice distributors and periodical retailers to carry comic books again

We opened the first Comics and Comix outlet at 2512 Telegraph Ave near UC-Berkeley in late August 1972 just ten days after the first El Cortez Hotel San Diego comicon. Swamp Thing #1 debuted that week. Kirby New Gods, Forever People, etc were still coming out. Barry Smith Conan was all the rage.




If enough lost souls here seek to understand "affidavit return fraud" I will endeavor to explain same here


Dooooooo tellllllllll. What good are we if we're not learning?!? Just sacks of meat I suppose 😎


Post 67 IP   flag post
I live in RI and Rhode Islanders eat chili with beans. esaravo private msg quote post Address this user
@BLBcomics - Are you are saying that the "honor" system didn't work and many stores sold remaindered or unreturned copies for profit?
Post 68 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by esaravo
@BLBcomics - Are you are saying that the "honor" system didn't work and many stores sold remaindered or unreturned copies for profit?


Basically any book in circulation with the top 1/3 torn off is a stolen comic. Honor system 😁 Lol
Post 69 IP   flag post
Collector BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by esaravo
@BLBcomics - Are you are saying that the "honor" system didn't work and many stores sold remaindered or unreturned copies for profit?


No, not at all. There are/were many level to the distribution of periodicals back in the day. You mistakenly chose the wrong level.

The "honor" affidavit returns system was between the 900+ ID periodical distributors, the central "main" distributor and the various publishers.

This broken FUBAR system was one of various factors which led to Code comics coming out of Sparta to be added in to what we came to call the Direct Market beginning summer 1973.

By 1979 the DM code comics were all of 5% of Marvel's net sales in dollars

And before I launch in to such a descriptive slice of comics distribution history chewing up my time I sort of wanted to "see" reaction(s) from the "new" school of lost comics souls wandering around in the wilderness as I absorbed aspects of this thread as well as others

One thing for sure most inside these slab threads here and "across the street" seem to have little to zilch knowledge wisdom of how the distribution of "new" comics evolved over the decades.




Post 70 IP   flag post
Collector BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by esaravo
@BLBcomics - Are you are saying that the "honor" system didn't work and many stores sold remaindered or unreturned copies for profit?


Basically any book in circulation with the top 1/3 torn off is a stolen comic. Honor system 😁 Lol


Yes and No. The title torn off was an earlier counted system. NOT "honor" system. You guys still have a lot to learn. Mayhaps even inside a "new" thread as this one has a lot of tangents already built in to it.


Post 71 IP   flag post
Collector BrianGreensnips private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBcomics
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by esaravo
@BLBcomics - Are you are saying that the "honor" system didn't work and many stores sold remaindered or unreturned copies for profit?


Basically any book in circulation with the top 1/3 torn off is a stolen comic. Honor system 😁 Lol


Yes and No. The title torn off was an earlier counted system. NOT "honor" system. You guys still have a lot to learn. Mayhaps even inside a "new" thread as this one has a lot of tangents already built in to it.


Sounds like a great idea. Can you start fresh from the top?
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Collector Drogio private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBcomics





I see a fantastic four #1, tales to astonish 39 and captain marvel 26 [edited] What do others see?
Post 73 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBcomics
My book Comic Book Store Wars will be finished soon.
In there I cover a concept no one here seems to have mentioned:

Affidavit Return Fraud.

I covered this in depth 25,000 words in Comic Book Artist #6 (1999) and #7 (early 2000) edited by Jon B Cooke published by TwoMorrow in an article series titled Secret Origins of the Direct Market.

Back in the 60s 70s the Returns on comic books went to an "honor" system from cover stripping especially coming out of the late 60s Batman TV show glut which caused a huge backlash about carrying 12 cent comic books of any sort.

By 1969 cover prices in USA went to 15 cents.

Soon thereafter cover prices went to 20 cents in attempts to entice distributors and periodical retailers to carry comic books again

We opened the first Comics and Comix outlet at 2512 Telegraph Ave near UC-Berkeley in late August 1972 just ten days after the first El Cortez Hotel San Diego comicon. Swamp Thing #1 debuted that week. Kirby New Gods, Forever People, etc were still coming out. Barry Smith Conan was all the rage.

If enough lost souls here seek to understand "affidavit return fraud" I will endeavor to explain same here


Hi Bob. If I'm not mistaken, the affidavit system didn't exist in 1988, or existed in a vastly different form than what existed under the affidavit fraud situation of the late 60's/early 70's.

The topic is, of course, ASM #300, which came out in early 1988, long after you were a new comic book retailer...correct? So, I don't think anyone WOULD have mentioned the affidavit return fraud situation, as it doesn't seem at all relevant to books from 1988.

But by all means, feel free to share your experiences on the matter as it relates to the distribution system of the late 60's/early 70's.
Post 74 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBcomics
My book Comic Book Store Wars will be finished soon.
In there I cover a concept no one here seems to have mentioned:

Affidavit Return Fraud.

I covered this in depth 25,000 words in Comic Book Artist #6 (1999) and #7 (early 2000) edited by Jon B Cooke published by TwoMorrow in an article series titled Secret Origins of the Direct Market.

Back in the 60s 70s the Returns on comic books went to an "honor" system from cover stripping especially coming out of the late 60s Batman TV show glut which caused a huge backlash about carrying 12 cent comic books of any sort.

By 1969 cover prices in USA went to 15 cents.

Soon thereafter cover prices went to 20 cents in attempts to entice distributors and periodical retailers to carry comic books again

We opened the first Comics and Comix outlet at 2512 Telegraph Ave near UC-Berkeley in late August 1972 just ten days after the first El Cortez Hotel San Diego comicon. Swamp Thing #1 debuted that week. Kirby New Gods, Forever People, etc were still coming out. Barry Smith Conan was all the rage.

If enough lost souls here seek to understand "affidavit return fraud" I will endeavor to explain same here


Hi Bob. If I'm not mistaken, the affidavit system didn't exist in 1988, or existed in a vastly different form than what existed under the affidavit fraud situation of the late 60's/early 70's.

The topic is, of course, ASM #300, which came out in early 1988, long after you were a new comic book retailer...correct? So, I don't think anyone WOULD have mentioned the affidavit return fraud situation, as it doesn't seem at all relevant to books from 1988.

But by all means, feel free to share your experiences on the matter as it relates to the distribution system of the late 60's/early 70's.


Really DocBrn? You of all people, the king of thread derailing with "fact" checking and condecendence, the thread-killer, are going to get on an old guy for being slightly off-topic? The man clearly offered to create a new thread as well. Dont be a duck.

Make a thread Bob, or just tangent this one. We know you like to spin some tales, but you've still got arguably the best bits of comic book collecting history stashed away in that mind of yours 🍺
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Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user

Post 76 IP   flag post
Collector NilesPaine private msg quote post Address this user
@BLBcomics I mean there were a few tangents on the thread but it is mainly focused on print runs in general. I'd love to hear some knowledge or if you'd like to start your own thread that's fine too!!!! Also, when is the book due?? Sounds like a good read. . .
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Collector NilesPaine private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drogio
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBcomics





I see a fantastic four #1, tales to astonish 39 and captain marvel 28. What do others see?


Me thinks a Star Wars #1 and A Journey Into Mystery can't tell what issue though!
Post 78 IP   flag post
Collector Drogio private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by NilesPaine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drogio
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBcomics





I see a fantastic four #1, tales to astonish 39 and captain marvel 28. What do others see?


Me thinks a Star Wars #1 and A Journey Into Mystery can't tell what issue though!


Bottom right is amazing spiderman #5. Looked to be dr. Doom on the cover and googled it...
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CBCS broke up with me over Facebook. CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by NilesPaine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drogio
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBcomics





I see a fantastic four #1, tales to astonish 39 and captain marvel 28. What do others see?


Me thinks a Star Wars #1 and A Journey Into Mystery can't tell what issue though!


Hulk #2
FF #4
ASM #2
ASM #5
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