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CBCS vs CGC Pros vs Cons. Keep it civil420

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Collector 3.24K	3.24K SpiderTim private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	CBCS is great! L
	8 years ago	Post 26 • IP flag post

Collector 512	512 Mr_adam_R private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Initially it was the VSP program. Take that "marker on cover"!!! Then its cost. Then, the pleasant customer service and knowledgeable reps at cons are what ices the cake.
	8 years ago	Post 27 • IP flag post

Collector 70	70 Happylemon private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	After seeing so many problems from wavey books and newton rings galore, I won't be using cgc ever again.
	8 years ago	Post 28 • IP flag post

Collector 275	275 Mijael private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Since i live on Mexico slabbing is not an option for me because of the high shippung costs. So i buy my books already slabbed. If i buy a book for investment reasons i buy CGC because it has a better resell value. If i buy a slabbed book to my collection i think CBCS is a better choice because its cheaper than CGC and it will be well graded
	8 years ago	Post 29 • IP flag post

Collector 1.09K	1.09K Stelbert_Stylton private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by conditionfreak I could find nothing on their web site that states they only report from one source. Here is what they say. "We monitor the fire hose of online comic book sales across various marketplaces and report on the sales of CGC and CBCS graded books in our comics price guide. We only monitor actual sales; not just sale listings. For each sale discovered, we match it to the specific comic in our massive database (which also includes variant covers and printings). As we match the sale we record the comic grading company, holder/label type and the assigned grade. Finally, we gather supportive information about the individual sale including when and where it was sold, how the sale can be identified at the remote venue, the format of the sale (auction, fixed price, etc.), the images that were used for the sale, descriptive sale information (i.e. auction titles) and more." I have been a member for several months and it is my go-to site for assessing values. I used to use GPA but my credit card with them got hacked, and I also determined that their values/prices were not based on actual legitimate sales. It may be the case with GoCollect in the future. Who knows yet. But so far, GoCollect is awesome. Especially with how you can filter to just view CBCS or CGC, etc. And it is cheaper. Here it is, right from the boss' mouth, from a month ago: "At present we only collect eBay data". Here's the link, and it includes a free promo code: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9315263&fpart=2
	8 years ago	Post 30 • IP flag post

Collector 218	218 Sqeggs private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I posted this in Mike's stickied clarity thread, but I guess it goes here as well: Mike, It's great to see you make this public statement. There is a lot of useful information in your post. Here's the thing, though: There's a widespread belief that CBCS consistently grades higher than CGC. A book that receives, say, a CBCS 6.0 will receive a CGC 5.0. A CBCS 9.6 might be a CGC 9.2. To my mind, the gap between your grading and CGC's grading is the biggest obstacle to the growth of your company. Hardly anybody wants to deal in high-dollar CBCS books because they sell at a fluctuating discount to CGC books with the same grade. Not being able to get a fix on FMV of CBCS books makes me reluctant to buy them or sell them. For lower-dollar books, it doesn't make much difference. But for high-dollar books, it's a killer. CGC is going through a major crisis because not only do their new slabs have presentation issues with Newton rings, but there is increasing evidence that they are actually damaging the books. You have a heaven sent opportunity to expand your business. But to do so I think you need to forthrightly address the grading issue.
	8 years ago	Post 31 • IP flag post

Collector 55	55 warbooks private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	My personal experience of CGC and CBCS grading is that its harder to get 9.8s from CBCS. That is based on a few hundred submissions to CBCS and well over a thousand to CGC. Mid and lower grade books I don't know and can't say about either company's grading.
	8 years ago	Post 32 • IP flag post

Beaten by boat oars 47.95K	47.95K Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	From my own personal experience, I don't see an issue. It sounds like a lack of confidence from the seller because there isn't a holy CGC label on the slab accompanied by a choir of angels. I've seen a store sell two copies of Avengers #1 (both 4.5 from each company) for the same amount. If you're a buyer, then I would say buy the book in the slab and not the number on the slab.
	8 years ago	Post 33 • IP flag post

If I could, I would. I swear. 48.81K	48.81K DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 9
	Quote: Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley From my own personal experience, I don't see an issue. It sounds like a lack of confidence from the seller because there isn't a holy CGC label on the slab accompanied by a choir of angels. I've seen a store sell two copies of Avengers #1 (both 4.5 from each company) for the same amount. If you're a buyer, then I would say buy the book in the slab and not the number on the slab. I was working the convention circuit with Dale Roberts Comics when the very first CBCS books came on the market, San Diego 2014. We didn't have any trouble selling them versus cgc graded books. There will be people who don't like one company or the other for whatever reason. They both over grade. They both under grade. They both have hiccups every now and then. The biggest differences between the two companies are how they treat their customers and their attitudes.
	8 years ago	Post 34 • IP flag post

Collector 1.34K	1.34K VillageIdiot private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1

	8 years ago	Post 35 • IP flag post

Collector 3.24K	3.24K SpiderTim private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	My personal experience is that CGC grading is not consistent and I have had a more difficult time getting 9.8 out of CBCS than from CGC. Hell, I once had a CGC book returned because the buyer didn't agree with the 9.8 grade CGC gave the book, he said that truthfully it would be much lower! Customer service and the current CGC case problems makes me glad when I chose CBCS as my only grading company in october 2014 AND I don't have to depend on third parties to get my own signatures at a show! Wow!
	8 years ago	Post 36 • IP flag post

Collector 298	298 stophmaster private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by Sqeggs Here's the thing, though: There's a widespread belief that CBCS consistently grades higher than CGC. A book that receives, say, a CBCS 6.0 will receive a CGC 5.0. A CBCS 9.6 might be a CGC 9.2. Interesting. Everything I've heard (not just here) is that CBCS has been more consistent in their grading and a tad tougher than CGC. I just got two silver age books back, and I thought they were tough but fair on them. I had been hoping for a 9.8 on one of them, but upon reading the graders notes and looking at the book again, the 9.6 grade was reasonable.
	8 years ago	Post 37 • IP flag post

Beaten by boat oars 47.95K	47.95K Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Lately, I've been getting some books back from CGC that have been inconsistent. However, it worked in my favor I guess. But, I've found CBCS much more consistent and the service has been good. To each their own.
	8 years ago	Post 38 • IP flag post

Collector 218	218 Sqeggs private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DrWatson Quote: Originally Posted by Studley_Dudley From my own personal experience, I don't see an issue. It sounds like a lack of confidence from the seller because there isn't a holy CGC label on the slab accompanied by a choir of angels. I've seen a store sell two copies of Avengers #1 (both 4.5 from each company) for the same amount. If you're a buyer, then I would say buy the book in the slab and not the number on the slab. I was working the convention circuit with Dale Roberts Comics when the very first CBCS books came on the market, San Diego 2014. We didn't have any trouble selling them versus cgc graded books. There will be people who don't like one company or the other for whatever reason. They both over grade. They both under grade. They both have hiccups every now and then. The biggest differences between the two companies are how they treat their customers and their attitudes. The key here may be the timing. It wasn't evident at first that CBCS grades were consistently higher. Once it became evident, a sizable gap in prices developed, at least with respect higher-dollar books. That's my take.
	8 years ago	Post 39 • IP flag post

Collector 1.54K	1.54K D84 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I'll still take consistency instead of the dart board approach I think CGC uses. I got back a Shazam! 28 CGC 9.4 that had a 1/8" corner piece missing. When I sent the book in I thought it would be an 8.5, but CGC gave it a 9.4. This Batman 232 CGC 8.5 had less issues than the Shazam! book but came back lower.
	8 years ago	Post 40 • IP flag post

President 923	923 SteveBorock private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 5
	I just posted this on the boards. Maybe this will help some of you see one difference between us & our competition.... 20% OFF GRADING FEES CROSSING OVER FROM THE NEW CGC CASE TO THE CBCS HOLDER. I did not want to write this, but feel that I must. CBCS is offering to re-grade any comic in the new CGC holder for 20% less than we would normally charge. You may ask why we would do that, well the explanations are below.... CBCS has been receiving many phone calls and emails about problems with the new CGC holder, asking us if our holder has the same problems. We always say "No, it does not. We have a crystal clear, light weight holder that uses an archival grade PETG inner well which provides state of the art protection. Our design has been tested time & time again". I have also read and seen the examples of the problems on chat boards and even 2 cases in person. I was just told yesterday, by many people, that the issues with the new CGC holder was the talk of the convention at Megacon. Collectors & dealers are worried, as well they should be. Problems like: Books shifting around in the CGC holder and looking crooked with potential to damage books through transit. Books that get wrinkled in the CGC holder. (There was an example posted on the CGC boards where a collector got their book in the new holder all wrinkled, sent it back to them for re-holder, and it still came back the same way. This person was not happy at all. I know I would not be.) Acrylic can come off of the cover and sticking to the interior of the CGC holder on restored books. Too much pressure on the books from the CGC holder. This is a problem for many reasons for different types of books as it could pop staples that are already fragile (D.C. Silver Age is notorious for popped staples even if there is not too much pressure on a comic in the 1st place). It is a problem for books with a spine roll that has weak paper, as the pressure could split the cover or, worse, splitting interior pages and not the cover. The owner of the book would never know by looking at it, but once taken out of the holder, would see that the comic book would not just become a lower grade, but that has been ruined. On many brand new books the inks are already unstable and we have seen that the inks by the staples, from the pressure, also gets stuck to the Mylar. Another example of how excessive pressure associated with encapsulating a book in this holder poses a risk to the comic. Inserts in books can make dent-lines to the pages and/or cover. *"Newton Rings" which causes an appearance of an oily looking film on and around the comic. This will always be a problem with this design, but especially if there is too much pressure. All of these design related issues are the reason, when I was helping CGC design their original holder, we decided not to go with a heavy "Fortress" type holder. I did not like the "Fortress" in the '90's for the same reasons listed above and, when CBCS gets in a book submitted to us in a Fortress, we call or email the customer explaining the potential damage the book might have suffered in the fortress and get permission before opening it for grading. If we do not get permission in writing, we ship the book back to the collector as we do not want to get blamed for damage we did not do. When CBCS started out, we took a big hit that a "start-up" could not afford, but did it because we did not want to damage a single comic if possible. Here is a quote about it that CBCS CEO Michael Bornstein wrote on our forums just recently: "When CBCS first opened we had a problem with our inner well. Unbeknownst to us, the plastics company used recycled PETG for the inner well. They did not use recycled during any of our testing prior to us opening. PETG comes in huge rolls and when it is molded and cut, there is a lot of waste. For conservation purposes, this wasted plastic is melted down and reformed. A plastic can go through hundreds of cycles before it is actually used in the final product. This can degrade the integrity of the plastic. In most cases, it won’t matter. In our case, it was a big deal. The plastic tore very easily. This could have damaged comics. Rather than take that chance, we stopped encasing comics to investigate. We gave up to 30% discounts to people who sent in comics with the understanding that it would take longer for them to be returned as we investigate and solve the problem. It fortunately turned out to be a simple solution—use virgin PETG. It is no more expensive than recycled. Cost was not the issue. The plastics company was just trying to be environmentally conscious. We did not keep sending out cases that could potentially damage comics. We did not take the chance that an inferior product would continue. We did not hide anything from our customers. We simply stopped production until the problem could be fixed. It could have been the end of our company if the problem turned out to be bigger than that. There wasn’t even discussion about what was right. We would rather close than potentially hurt comics. I wish this were the case with all grading companies." It is regrettable that CGC is making a different choice to keep encapsulating comics in a case that they know has serious design flaws. They could stop encapsulating books until they rectified the problem but, to my dismay, they have not. The owners of CGC can afford to take the kind of hit we did, we could not. It hurt us very badly, but at CBCS we feel that our customers and the hobby must come 1st. I had hoped they felt the same way about all of you, I guess they do not. As many of you know, I do not talk badly about our competition and ask others on our Facebook pages and our chat board not to talk badly about them either. That is why this was very hard for me to write. All of us at CBCS love our hobby and the comic books you entrust us to grade. We love the collectors and dealers that some of us have known for many, many years and the ones we have just recently been acquainted with. So all that said, these are the reasons that CBCS is willing to cross-over any new CGC case into our CBCS holder at a 20% discount off the grading. Yes, this means we don't make money, but as I stated before, we care more about the comic books and especially you. Sorry for the long winded post, but I hope this helps some of you. As always, happy collecting! -Steve Borock
	8 years ago	Post 41 • IP flag post

Collector 1.09K	1.09K Stelbert_Stylton private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by SteveBorock It is regrettable that CGC is making a different choice to keep encapsulating comics in a case that they know has serious design flaws. They could stop encapsulating books until they rectified the problem but, to my dismay, they have not. So do you think that if this had happened in 2003, the higher ups would've let you stop slabbing books? Is this type of thing the decision of the CGC president or do the CCG big-wigs have the final say no matter what?
	8 years ago	Post 42 • IP flag post

If I could, I would. I swear. 48.81K	48.81K DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Stelbert_Stylton Quote: Originally Posted by SteveBorock It is regrettable that CGC is making a different choice to keep encapsulating comics in a case that they know has serious design flaws. They could stop encapsulating books until they rectified the problem but, to my dismay, they have not. So do you think that if this had happened in 2003, the higher ups would've let you stop slabbing books? Is this type of thing the decision of the CGC president or do the CCG big-wigs have the final say no matter what? But it didn't happen in 2003 it happened in 2016. How the cgc runs now versus how it ran then could be two completely different animals. Obviously, however it ran, it didn't run the way Steve wanted it to run or he'd still be there.
	8 years ago	Post 43 • IP flag post

Collector 1.09K	1.09K Stelbert_Stylton private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DrWatson Quote: Originally Posted by Stelbert_Stylton Quote: Originally Posted by SteveBorock It is regrettable that CGC is making a different choice to keep encapsulating comics in a case that they know has serious design flaws. They could stop encapsulating books until they rectified the problem but, to my dismay, they have not. So do you think that if this had happened in 2003, the higher ups would've let you stop slabbing books? Is this type of thing the decision of the CGC president or do the CCG big-wigs have the final say no matter what? But it didn't happen in 2003 it happened in 2016. How the cgc runs now versus how it ran then could be two completely different animals. Obviously, however it ran, it didn't run the way Steve wanted it to run or he'd still be there. Yeah, that's what I want to hear more of. How has CGC changed since then? How are they two different animals? Seems the same to me. Why did Borock leave? Why didn't he leave before that? What was the last straw? Would he have had the authority to do what he says he wants CGC to do? Who makes the call? Compare and contrast Borock's CGC to today's CGC - what are the differences?
	8 years ago	Post 44 • IP flag post

If I could, I would. I swear. 48.81K	48.81K DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	If I were you, I would hang up and wait for the answer...
	8 years ago	Post 45 • IP flag post

Collector 100	100 MusterMark private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Personally, I couldn't care less about ANY of that ... (Not important to ME. Others' mileage may differ).
	8 years ago	Post 46 • IP flag post

Collector 6K	6K jsilverjanet private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DrWatson Quote: Originally Posted by Mio CGC books still seem to fetch more dough, on average. I used to think the same thing. However, more often than not at this point, my CBCS books are selling above GPA. The problem is that GPA doesn't track CBCS sales. I have an offer righr now on a CBCS graded book for $80 and the last cgc sale on GPA is $60. I also recently sold another one for $175 when the last cgc sale according to GPA was $175. Not monumental numbers, but ir c ertainly doesn't reflect the "CBCS books sell for 30% less than there cgc counterparts" statement I read on Facebook. whats the book?
	8 years ago	Post 47 • IP flag post

If I could, I would. I swear. 48.81K	48.81K DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by jsilverjanet Quote: Originally Posted by DrWatson Quote: Originally Posted by Mio CGC books still seem to fetch more dough, on average. I used to think the same thing. However, more often than not at this point, my CBCS books are selling above GPA. The problem is that GPA doesn't track CBCS sales. I have an offer righr now on a CBCS graded book for $80 and the last cgc sale on GPA is $60. I also recently sold another one for $175 when the last cgc sale according to GPA was $175. Not monumental numbers, but ir c ertainly doesn't reflect the "CBCS books sell for 30% less than there cgc counterparts" statement I read on Facebook. whats the book? Alpha Flight 33 and X-Force 2 signed by Liefeld.
	8 years ago	Post 48 • IP flag post

Collector 1.09K	1.09K Stelbert_Stylton private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DrWatson If I were you, I would hang up and wait for the answer... Yeah, I hear what you're saying. But just a few answers would help assuage this feeling I have that Borock is being a bit hypocritical. Is it really that easy for the president of CGC to say "stop slabbing books"? I don't know. If it is, all the more shame on CGC. If anyone does know, please let me know. But I gotta say, I like this shot across the bow. Can't wait for the reprisals
	8 years ago	Post 49 • IP flag post

Collector 19	19 Rip private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	I'll point out the biggest problems with each company I think CBCS problems are in order: 1. Overgrading on pre 80 books. However I think moderns are good and maybe a hair tighter/consistent than CGC. 2. Lower prices realized from sales. 2b. Unknown track record on 9.9 and above. Too early to tell if it has a negative effect the pricing 3. Lack of resources for tracking prices. (Although I think Go-collect does have prices.) CGC biggest problems are 1. The new holder. A true deal breaker if they don't fix it. Any book that stays in my collection wont have a CGC 4/4/16 holder. I would rather have it raw. 2. Grading is sometimes relaxed 3. Turnaround time often takes way too long A couple of positives: CGC is easier to track and gauge pricing/gets more money CBCS has the best holder in the business.
	8 years ago	Post 50 • IP flag post

If I could, I would. I swear. 48.81K	48.81K DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Stelbert_Stylton Quote: Originally Posted by DrWatson If I were you, I would hang up and wait for the answer... Yeah, I hear what you're saying. But just a few answers would help assuage this feeling I have that Borock is being a bit hypocritical. Is it really that easy for the president of CGC to say "stop slabbing books"? I don't know. If it is, all the more shame on CGC. If anyone does know, please let me know. But I gotta say, I like this shot across the bow. Can't wait for the reprisals I don't think of it as being hypocritical as it doesn't matter how the decision process works. It matters as to what decisions are made and ultimately who benefits from those decisions.
	8 years ago	Post 51 • IP flag post

Collector 6K	6K jsilverjanet private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	@SteveBorock Dealers already get a 20% discount with CGC and I believe your dealer program already offers a discount as well. Will dealers get an additional discount based on your offer on regrading new CGC books? Also how long is this offer good till?
	8 years ago	Post 52 • IP flag post

Collector 218	218 Sqeggs private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by jsilverjanet @SteveBorock Dealers already get a 20% discount with CGC and I believe your dealer program already offers a discount as well. Will dealers get an additional discount based on your offer on regrading new CGC books? Also how long is this offer good till?
	8 years ago	Post 53 • IP flag post

Collector 218	218 Sqeggs private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Rip I'll point out the biggest problems with each company I think CBCS problems are in order: 1. Overgrading on pre 80 books. However I think moderns are good and maybe a hair tighter/consistent than CGC. 2. Lower prices realized from sales. 2b. Unknown track record on 9.9 and above. Too early to tell if it has a negative effect the pricing 3. Lack of resources for tracking prices. (Although I think Go-collect does have prices.) CGC biggest problems are 1. The new holder. A true deal breaker if they don't fix it. Any book that stays in my collection wont have a CGC 4/4/16 holder. I would rather have it raw. 2. Grading is sometimes relaxed 3. Turnaround time often takes way too long A couple of positives: CGC is easier to track and gauge pricing/gets more money CBCS has the best holder in the business. Well put. So far, the thing I like best about CBCS is that our avatars are a lot easier to see.
	8 years ago	Post 54 • IP flag post

Collector 313	313 Marc_1 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Sqeggs Quote: Originally Posted by Rip I'll point out the biggest problems with each company I think CBCS problems are in order: 1. Overgrading on pre 80 books. However I think moderns are good and maybe a hair tighter/consistent than CGC. 2. Lower prices realized from sales. 2b. Unknown track record on 9.9 and above. Too early to tell if it has a negative effect the pricing 3. Lack of resources for tracking prices. (Although I think Go-collect does have prices.) CGC biggest problems are 1. The new holder. A true deal breaker if they don't fix it. Any book that stays in my collection wont have a CGC 4/4/16 holder. I would rather have it raw. 2. Grading is sometimes relaxed 3. Turnaround time often takes way too long A couple of positives: CGC is easier to track and gauge pricing/gets more money CBCS has the best holder in the business. Well put. So far, the thing I like best about CBCS is that our avatars are a lot easier to see. I think you are being a bit hard on CBCS from what i've seen of your posts but I certainly respect your opinion. What exactly is it that scares you from submitting your books to them? I haven't sent in a ton of books to either company in the past year so I'm curious what your trepidation is for subbing to CBCS. I know I am apprehensive to sub any books to CGC right now.
	8 years ago	Post 55 • IP flag post

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