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ebay buyer accuses me of switching labels!4188

COLLECTOR kaptainmyke private msg quote post Address this user
Okay buyer asks for a stack of cbcs slabs that shows the same damage on the sides. I think JWkyle and a few others had some photos of this phenomenon. He said if he saw some photos of it he'd consider dropping the return case.
Post 126 IP   flag post
Collector BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by drchaos
I found the locked thread but the video was removed by the Youtube user. So it would seem that the heat seals are the proof of integrity and their absence would indicate the lack of security or the possibility of tampering. In other words the cases used for the label swap included at least one that had been damaged and it is not possible to swap just any label and put everything back the way it was.

This leads me to two follow up questions:

1. How often does a batch go out without heat seals (quality control issue)?

2. When inspecting a book in hand (or looking at pictures) how does one identify (and where does one look) a missing heat seal?



The fact that there is so much inconsistency with the whole cheesy little heat seals leads me to believe that they were NEVER really intended as a Security measure. and even if they were they could still be pretty easily manipulated (Trimmed, colored etc..) as any damage from the "Heat seals" were minimal.

I cracked out this Captain America for my Run. Here is the Label and the very minimal damaged occurred when I removed it. Little to none.





Easily Trimmed of retouched





I would like to see CBCS implement a CBCS Embossed Heat Seal Logo right in the heart of the label.
Maybe it's never going to be foolproof as some have stated. But it SURELY would be more of a detourant than the ridiculous tiny little heat tabs,




I REALLY want CBCS to succeed and I know the board members here do to. But this board only represent a tiny tiny TINY fraction of collectors and hobby enthusiasts. In order for CBCS to capture a larger share of the Market they will most certainly need to gain the trust and confidence of a MUCH larger portion of the collecting community. THAT will most certainly be a much bigger challenge with this issue hanging over them. Until they step up and put out a hobby leading secure slab that's able to gain my confidence beyond all their competitors, There's really no reason to use them over the recognizable brand name.
Post 127 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
Having now seen the video it would seem that aside from the heat seals the only way to determine if a book had been tampered with would be to remove the top of the case and to look for the types of cuts that the top would obscure while in place. I can just see the look the faces of the guys at Metropolis when someone walks up to them at NYCC asking to take the the case of a five hundred thousand dollar book.

With that said I am now very interested in knowing what there is to know about heat seals.

How many heat seals should a slab have in place?
Where are they located?
What does a heat seal look like when no damage has taken place?
Post 128 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Yeah, right now even PGX is doing this "half measure" 100% better than CBCS. The heat seals on PGX labels run the whole height of the labels.
Post 129 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
@drchaos now instead of not?
Post 130 IP   flag post


COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
@DarthLego Fixed, sometimes my brain is working faster than my hands can type.
Post 131 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Yeah, sometimes I have to edit posts 3 times after posting.
Post 132 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
Yeah, sometimes I have to edit posts 3 times after posting.


You and me both brother. I often find myself touching up my posts to fix minor errors. Especially, the longer ranting posts.
Post 133 IP   flag post
Collector BigRedOne1944 private msg quote post Address this user
Holy Crap BATMAN! I gotta go to work tomorrow! It friggin 3 AM!

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Post 134 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
That first pic of the 8.5 label @BigRedOne1944 posted shows the two little white spots on the right and left bottom edge caused by the heat seals tearing the top layer of paper off.
Post 135 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
That first pic of the 8.5 label @BigRedOne1944 posted shows the two little white spots on the right and left bottom edge caused by the heat seals tearing the top layer of paper off.


Seems like a lot more work to have to look for such small flaws in the labels for each potential purchase. What about the plastic, how much different does the plastic case look when the heat seals are missing?
Post 136 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Looking at batches of slabs CBCS has put out this year, that I have submitted or purchased. Some only had one side with the heat seal touching the label barely, some had none. Compare these to my old CBCS labels and to my Rivet CBCS labels, I can clearly see a drop in the consistency of these. And once this scandal hit, the slabs coming out of CBCS had a noticeable improvement in the size and consistency of the seals.
Post 137 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
And once this scandal hit, the slabs coming out of CBCS has a noticeable improvement in the size and consistency of the seals.


I should hope so. I am still getting my head around how to easily identify a book with insufficient heat seals. As a potential buyer I would like to educate myself so I could avoid all books where the heat seals are lacking instead of needing to look for signs of tampering.

I miss the days when buying a slab did not require such expertise.


Post 138 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRedOne1944
Holy Crap BATMAN! I gotta go to work tomorrow! It friggin 3 AM!


I have a long drive to Buffalo, NY (approx 6 hours without stops).
Post 139 IP   flag post
Collector poka private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptainmyke
Okay buyer asks for a stack of cbcs slabs that shows the same damage on the sides. I think JWkyle and a few others had some photos of this phenomenon. He said if he saw some photos of it he'd consider dropping the return case.


I will see if I have a few when get home from work
Post 140 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
@drchaos Go to page 11 for my photos of slabs with zero heat seals.
Post 141 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
I'm at work right now so I can't post a close up of a good seal.
Post 142 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
But Myke's slabs that he posted in this thread do have good seals touching the labels.
Post 143 IP   flag post
Collector VaComicsGuy private msg quote post Address this user
So has there been no response from CBCS about any of this?
Post 144 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
Problem 1 seems to be that the top of the case can be taken off and put back without anyone being able to tell.

Problem 2 is that putting the top back on covers the top of the section where the label is housed allowing someone to remove the label, switch or tamper with it, put it back, and cover up the damage with the top of the case.

I get that taking the top off the slab invites the ability to switch out the books but is there any need to look for or care about heat seals anywhere other than the area housing the label?
Post 145 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
@drchaos cutting at the top and swapping labels the way the video shows is pretty much the only thing to do that wouldn't be noticed. Actually removing a book from the sealed plastic well causes more noticeable damage to the plastic well. If the label has the seals done properly, removing the label will cause those small tears. But as @BigRedOne1944 noted, someone crafty could trim or color touch a label and make it look good. If you look at one of the new PGX labels you can see they have the seal running all they way up the labels. Removing a PGX label would tear it from edge to edge. Better deterrent than CBCS currently has imo.
Post 146 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Reading through this thread, the Chicken little posts were hilarious, while irritating; glad most ignored them.

@kap sorry man. Your buyer is not just ill-informed, he's a dumbass as well, its obvs reading his messages. Problem dealing with stupid people is they always somehow manage to convince themselves they are getting screwed. Good luck.



I said it yesterday. The inner well is completely secure now. But the outer shell is not "tamper evident", and I've even seen auction houses call them "cracked" due to the marks on the sides. It's clearly time for Gen2.
Post 147 IP   flag post
Collector neyko private msg quote post Address this user
In a nutshell and all seriousness, is my first submission to CBCS that I am waiting on and has a number of Golden books (ie the submission is expensive) now going to carry as little value as PGX due to this?

Is there a link to CBCS addressing this concern? I took a chance, I felt, with CBCS at my LCS behest and now I am alittle concerned.

Thanks.
Post 148 IP   flag post
Collector Grayspeedster private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by neyko
In a nutshell and all seriousness, is my first submission to CBCS that I am waiting on and has a number of Golden books (ie the submission is expensive) now going to carry as little value as PGX due to this?

Is there a link to CBCS addressing this concern? I took a chance, I felt, with CBCS at my LCS behest and now I am alittle concerned.

Thanks.


I would be too bro! Not cool CBCS not cool
Post 149 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by neyko
In a nutshell and all seriousness, is my first submission to CBCS that I am waiting on and has a number of Golden books (ie the submission is expensive) now going to carry as little value as PGX due to this?


There is no comparison to PGX here. None. Zero. There are clouds in the sky, but it is not falling by any means. PGX books sell for far less because the company got caught cheating; that sky fell, and rightly so.

CBCS is known to be honest, care about their customers, and have to best graders there are. In those aspects they are, and will remain, #1.

Bad news travels faster than good news though, and they do need to get ahead of this whole slab-security issue ASAP.
Post 150 IP   flag post
Collector Grayspeedster private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by neyko
In a nutshell and all seriousness, is my first submission to CBCS that I am waiting on and has a number of Golden books (ie the submission is expensive) now going to carry as little value as PGX due to this?


There is no comparison to PGX here. None. Zero. There are clouds in the sky, but it is not falling by any means. PGX books sell for far less because the company got caught cheating; that sky fell, and rightly so.

CBCS is known to be honest, care about their customers, and have to best graders there are. In those aspects they are, and will remain, #1.

Bad news travels faster than good news though, and they do need to get ahead of this whole slab-security issue ASAP.


Well put good friend!
Post 151 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
I'm having trouble identifying the "chicken little" posts, can someone point them out to me?

One thing I have learned over the past 3 weeks. My definition of "completely secure" is not the same as other people.

Things that concern me going forward.

1) That CBCS actually comments on what has been pointed out as a glaring QC problem that allowed slabs to leave their building which had zero heat seals touching the labels (which we now know is the only easily visible tamper evident feature of the CBCS slab).

2) Does CBCS intend to do anything to mitigate those potentially compromising slabs being in the marketplace, like a reholder discount program?

3) How does CBCS plan on improving the tamper evidence of its products going forward. Because now that the ability of the outer shell being easily and cleanly opened is public knowledge, relying on the current heat seal fix just isn't good enough in my opinion.

Personally I have decided to cease all CBCS slab activity, both submissions and purchasing of slabs from the marketplace, until these 3 questions get answered to my satisfaction.
Post 152 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
@DarthLego Well said. I was hoping to educate myself to evaluate books slabbed in this manner but the inconsistency means passing on a lot of books with insufficient heat seals that were probably not tampered with.
Post 153 IP   flag post
Collector poka private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by poka
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptainmyke
Okay buyer asks for a stack of cbcs slabs that shows the same damage on the sides. I think JWkyle and a few others had some photos of this phenomenon. He said if he saw some photos of it he'd consider dropping the return case.


I will see if I have a few when get home from work


just grabbed the one which was closest - let me know if you need further

Post 154 IP   flag post
Collector kclaw97 private msg quote post Address this user
Just got this one yesterday...
Post 155 IP   flag post
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