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Artist signature exceptions?4168

Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
@Towmater I don't know where you are getting this idea that CBCS witnesses don't need to be present when the book is signed. You posted that question three months ago and Steve Paulus responded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Paulus
The rules of the program state that an Authorized Witness has to be present when the books are signed. That is clear cut.


Here is the archived thread.

ASP witness question
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COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by drchaos
Someone please tell me that this problem has been resolved.

Have they resolved the problem from 3 weeks ago yet?
Post 77 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@Towmater I don't know where you are getting this idea that CBCS witnesses don't need to be present when the book is signed. You posted that question three months ago and Steve Paulus responded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Paulus
The rules of the program state that an Authorized Witness has to be present when the books are signed. That is clear cut.


Here is the archived thread.

ASP witness question


Because they don't have to be present for commission and the artist fills out paperwork stating that they did it. That paperwork can go to a witness at the convention who returns (NEVER SAT and watched it being done nor witnessed it being done) or it can be mailed back to them.

Happy?
Post 78 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
Quote:
Originally Posted by drchaos
Someone please tell me that this problem has been resolved.

Have they resolved the problem from 3 weeks ago yet?


If they did maybe Jesse O can provide a link to that as well. If not, then we are still waiting for a response.
Post 79 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@Towmater I don't know where you are getting this idea that CBCS witnesses don't need to be present when the book is signed. You posted that question three months ago and Steve Paulus responded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Paulus
The rules of the program state that an Authorized Witness has to be present when the books are signed. That is clear cut.


Here is the archived thread.

ASP witness question


Because they don't have to be present for commission and the artist fills out paperwork stating that they did it. That paperwork can go to a witness at the convention who returns (NEVER SAT and watched it being done nor witnessed it being done) or it can be mailed back to them.

Happy?



No, because that is NOT what you are saying!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
This new information along with the fact that witnesses can drop off books, never "witness" them actually being signed, pick them up later, and submit them really is an eye-opener for me. Seriously, PSA, JSA, and Steiner won't sticker a signature that isn't one that their representatives actually witnessed being signed if it is a part of their witness programs. They will verify them but they don't say they are "witnessed". The comic industry is very different.

So, yes, let the buyer beware.
Post 80 IP   flag post


Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
Quote:
Originally Posted by drchaos
Someone please tell me that this problem has been resolved.

Have they resolved the problem from 3 weeks ago yet?


Nothing yet.
Post 81 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@Towmater I don't know where you are getting this idea that CBCS witnesses don't need to be present when the book is signed. You posted that question three months ago and Steve Paulus responded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Paulus
The rules of the program state that an Authorized Witness has to be present when the books are signed. That is clear cut.


Here is the archived thread.

ASP witness question


Because they don't have to be present for commission and the artist fills out paperwork stating that they did it. That paperwork can go to a witness at the convention who returns (NEVER SAT and watched it being done nor witnessed it being done) or it can be mailed back to them.

Happy?



No, because that is NOT what you are saying!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
This new information along with the fact that witnesses can drop off books, never "witness" them actually being signed, pick them up later, and submit them really is an eye-opener for me. Seriously, PSA, JSA, and Steiner won't sticker a signature that isn't one that their representatives actually witnessed being signed if it is a part of their witness programs. They will verify them but they don't say they are "witnessed". The comic industry is very different.

So, yes, let the buyer beware.


I disagree. Thanks. BTW, I used to be a huge supporter of CBCS and defended things. As more information comes to light I find myself with more and more questions. You blamed and put it back on him for not reading something posted on Facebook. On Facebook? Is it required that one has to read Facebook to know things about the AW program and the guidelines? If so, is that on the form someone fills out to become a witness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
Yep, that's the way it works. And not to be a jerk, but this one is on you. It is plainly stated on the pinned message on the Official CBCS Signature Programs Facebook page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Official CBCS Signature Program fb page pinned post
Some of the artists & writers will have a ticket process OR initials on the CBCS submission forms by the art rep or managers, to qualify for CBCS yellow label (ASP) ONLY. LARRY LIEBER, JOE GIELLA, JOHN ROMITA JR. & TONY MOORE will work this way, by that comic book creator's handlers (Desert Wind Comics, Jeff Harnett & Mr. & Mrs. Tony Moore). Tickets that are not given to CBCS or no initials on the CBCS submission forms by the art reps or managers, will not qualify as ASP & will be given the option for a red label (VSP).


It's been that way for a while now. You might want to go over there and check out other guidelines.

Official CBCS Signature Programs Facebook page
Post 82 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
@Towmater - since you seemed to have missed it ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@drchaos @ONLINE_209 One point that I am not clear on that maybe you guys can clarify for me. Does an AW need to be preapproved for each show? Or is it once approved, you are good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by comic_book_man
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
OP just got let down by a failure of the CBCS Booth staff. I would be miffed too. He asked for a witness and they told him to be his own witness? What the hell?


@Hanginglimbs

I agree, seems like you were given misinformation...or lack of information in general. You were wronged, and if it were me I would not do business with the people who wronged you...unless they make it right. I would be reaching out to someone related to the booth staff, or CBCS, or DW, or whoever you need to to make this right, and don't give up until you have been compensated properly. We are just joe shmoes on the forum, we can't help you.

Seeing as the Moderator already said it's your fault,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
Yep, that's the way it works. And not to be a jerk, but this one is on you. It is plainly stated on the pinned message on the Official CBCS Signature Programs Facebook page.

I would make some phone calls tomorrow instead. Good luck, and sorry this happened to you!!


When I said that, I had erroneously assumed that he was a preapproved AW. If his story is accurate, I agree that someone at the CBCS booth screwed up major time!! I don't know how CBCS could correct this though. And honestly, if that situation happened to me, I'd have red flags going up and double check with other people at the booth. If I went to a CGC booth and asked for a witness and they handed me papers to witness the books myself, I'd get something in writing from them that they oked it. I'm just saying, that's what I would have done. But regardless, something, somewhere went wrong. I agree he should call or contact CBCS ASAP tomorrow.
Post 83 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@Towmater - since you seemed to have missed it ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@drchaos @ONLINE_209 One point that I am not clear on that maybe you guys can clarify for me. Does an AW need to be preapproved for each show? Or is it once approved, you are good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by comic_book_man
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
OP just got let down by a failure of the CBCS Booth staff. I would be miffed too. He asked for a witness and they told him to be his own witness? What the hell?


@Hanginglimbs

I agree, seems like you were given misinformation...or lack of information in general. You were wronged, and if it were me I would not do business with the people who wronged you...unless they make it right. I would be reaching out to someone related to the booth staff, or CBCS, or DW, or whoever you need to to make this right, and don't give up until you have been compensated properly. We are just joe shmoes on the forum, we can't help you.

Seeing as the Moderator already said it's your fault,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
Yep, that's the way it works. And not to be a jerk, but this one is on you. It is plainly stated on the pinned message on the Official CBCS Signature Programs Facebook page.

I would make some phone calls tomorrow instead. Good luck, and sorry this happened to you!!


When I said that, I had erroneously assumed that he was a preapproved AW. If his story is accurate, I agree that someone at the CBCS booth screwed up major time!! I don't know how CBCS could correct this though. And honestly, if that situation happened to me, I'd have red flags going up and double check with other people at the booth. If I went to a CGC booth and asked for a witness and they handed me papers to witness the books myself, I'd get something in writing from them that they oked it. I'm just saying, that's what I would have done. But regardless, something, somewhere went wrong. I agree he should call or contact CBCS ASAP tomorrow.


I guess I missed your apology for advising him it was "on him". What you highlighted seems to be an apology from comic_book_man. Am I reading that wrong? I see that others made a mistake "if" his story is accurate in your post.
Post 84 IP   flag post
CBCS Signature Director Mark_Roman private msg quote post Address this user
I can tell everyone that every AW or future AW is properly vetted & asked a series of questions, if and when at a convention. Whether they acknowledge that or not, it's on them and shows that some people can go back on their word, which shows as a class-less act on their behavior. CBCS tries to help as many customers with witnessing their signatures, that if their wait for getting a witness seems to exceed 20 minutes, and IF they want to witness their own books, we will give them the option of being a witness themselves, AFTER asking them a series of questions. Also, they are given my email to reply to me, so we can give them a copy of our Code of Conduct, so they can have in writing, from what I verbally advised the new AW. It's about ethics. Those AWs that seem unhappy with any un-witnessable signature they were not aware of, due to their refusal to read the updates on the FB Official CBCS Signature Program page or refusal to ask or refusal to read the AW letter (reason why everyone has to initial each paragraph) and refusal to read the Code of Conduct, will be dealt with, most in the form of having their AW status revoked. This shows us that "those" AWs do not take their responsibilities seriously. These are the type of distractions that prevents a company from doing their jobs in a timely manner.....but not on my watch.

Thank you all, that have reached out to me regarding this concern. CBCS prides itself to ensure our customers have the best customer service in the industry.
Post 85 IP   flag post
Collector Hanginglimbs private msg quote post Address this user
I'm really hoping this response is not meant to address my situation and it is not insisting that I (not CBCS) am the one dropping the ball here or have some sort of ethical compromise.

I wasn't given the option of having witnesses accompany. I was given a form to initial in 3 places and sign.
I wasn't given an email address, a code of conduct, or a link to a FB page that I didn't know existed. I was given a form to initial in 3 places and sign.
Aside from the obvious instruction to only submit books that were signed at the show, I was instructed to pay each artist what their asking fee was. I did just that. To the tune of probably $200 or more in artist fees (cash, with no receipt).

I took my responsibilities seriously and held myself to the utmost ethical standard, even asking multiple people (both CBCS staff and Desert Winds) if I was allowed to witness via CBCS. At no point did anyone, particularly the company I was trusting with nearly $1,000 between CBCS fees and the value of my comics, make it known to me that there were different rules for several artists and that by not following the unspoken (and to my knowledge, unwritten) rules, I would be invalidating the very purpose of my being there, spend money on a service I didn't want and will probably only qualify for(VSP), and (in my opinion) deface a comic with an unwitnessed signature in a time when witnessed signatures are everywhere.

Assuming you have read my post(s) and the following quote is true, I really expected more that a post insinuating I went back on my word, did something unethical, or otherwise refused to do the right thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_Roman
CBCS prides itself to ensure our customers have the best customer service in the industry.
Post 86 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user
There is so much I could say in regard to that post by Mark Roman.

But I won't. Since I do not collect signatures or witness for anyone, why bother. I will let y'all who have "skin in the game" work it out.

But please dear God. Don't let the next shoe to drop, be about grading and resto checks. It is all I have left to cling too.
Post 87 IP   flag post
CBCS Signature Director Mark_Roman private msg quote post Address this user
Hanginglimbs, you were given that option, since our wait was over 20 minutes. I remembered you. We ONLY approved 1 person as a "new" AW for that show. You seemed happy about the opportunity. You initialed in 7 different places (not 3), prior to each paragraph, where you are suppose to read prior to initialing. I'm not sure if you read them or not, but you seemed to understand the program. In the future, to alleviate this, customers will have to simply wait until we have an available witnesses. Another alternative is to also have copies of our Code of Conduct to read prior for "new" AW approvals. We realize that comic conventions are suppose to be fun and CBCS doesn't like to take up any of your additional valuable time spending reading literature that was also verbally condensed. Going forward, as a company, we take any criticism and try to fix it, so we can keep as many customers happy as possible.

For ALL the info and updates regarding witnessable & unwitnessable signatures for the Authentic Signature Program, please see https://www.facebook.com/groups/315360812169321/


Thank you,
-Mark
Post 88 IP   flag post
Collector Hanginglimbs private msg quote post Address this user
I assure you, I read them. Whether they were 3 or 7, I don't have a copy. And of course I was satisfied with being my own witness - I assumed it was a fair process and it was a pleasant surprise. Was I asked to join a fb page and review a post prior to accepting assignment? No, I was asked to sign a form and comply with all rules. I did. Was there a list of artist exceptions? Not that I recall, but I did have conversations with staff about it and tried to address it concerning the Hughes signature.

Now realizing that I was set up for failure on my own dollar with zero effort to make it right on the part of CBCS, how am I supposed to respond?

And when I brought my books back up to submit, why didn't staff (who I assume abide by the same code of conduct I'm supposed to) fail to ask "hey, where are the initials for these signatures?" The staff member filled out the form and checked off "ASP", so it seems staff wasn't aware of the added requirements either.
Post 89 IP   flag post
CBCS Signature Director Mark_Roman private msg quote post Address this user
Hanginglimbs,

If you simply asked, we would of been more than happy to put you in the right direction. Unfortunately, the artists, writers and/or their managers/art reps can change the cost of their signatures at any time and without warning, as well as how they conduct business for signatures of books that will be graded. CBCS has no way (or power) of knowing what the artists and/or their art reps will charge. That is simply out of our control. CBCS is a grading company that offers signature witnessing opportunities. Please feel free to email me at mroman@cbcscomics.com and I will be happy to send you any literature needed.


Thank you,
-Mark
Post 90 IP   flag post
CBCS spaulus private msg quote post Address this user
I asked Hanginglimbs to give me a call tomorrow. I hope to gain a better understanding of the problem so I can address it.

One of the strengths of public forum is that many people can provide their opinions on the topic of any given thread. We encourage that to take place, but in this particular thread, (at least for me) it is making it difficult to understand the root cause of the problem so I feel I cannot address it here. I hope a phone call and a conversation will resolve that.

What I can address is:
There are several people voicing opinions about the ASP some stating positives, some negatives. I get that not everyone will be happy with our program and there will always be people who want to compare the CBCS ASP to other programs. One difference that was brought up in this thread is the use of a CAW. CBCS does not require our Authorized Witnesses to pay for a secondary witness to walk the show with a select few facilitators. Nor do we set a minimum number of books that have to be submitted to qualify for that secondary witness. I feel that those requirements only serve to put a very few AWs in positions of power over the signature industry eroding competition and the free market. We are taking a different approach, one that places an emphasis on the AW to understand rules and ask questions if they are unsure of something. The company, therefore, is placed in a position of policing the policies and procedures to make sure rules are followed.

Mark and I have been talking about making some changes to the ASP, so we can improve the program. He and I are still discussing these changes, so if anyone wants to discuss the pros and cons of the ASP, please email one of us at spaulus@cbcscomics.com or mroman@cbcscomics.com, one or both of us will be happy to discuss the program with you, and get your feed back.

Those of you wanting to discuss CBCS limiting the ASP to only 10 - 12 AWs, forcing all of the signature fans to go through one of them, need not bother. We are not going to make that change anytime in the near future.

Thank you for reading



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanginglimbs
I'm really hoping this response is not meant to address my situation and it is not insisting that I (not CBCS) am the one dropping the ball here or have some sort of ethical compromise.

I wasn't given the option of having witnesses accompany. I was given a form to initial in 3 places and sign.
I wasn't given an email address, a code of conduct, or a link to a FB page that I didn't know existed. I was given a form to initial in 3 places and sign.
Aside from the obvious instruction to only submit books that were signed at the show, I was instructed to pay each artist what their asking fee was. I did just that. To the tune of probably $200 or more in artist fees (cash, with no receipt).

I took my responsibilities seriously and held myself to the utmost ethical standard, even asking multiple people (both CBCS staff and Desert Winds) if I was allowed to witness via CBCS. At no point did anyone, particularly the company I was trusting with nearly $1,000 between CBCS fees and the value of my comics, make it known to me that there were different rules for several artists and that by not following the unspoken (and to my knowledge, unwritten) rules, I would be invalidating the very purpose of my being there, spend money on a service I didn't want and will probably only qualify for(VSP), and (in my opinion) deface a comic with an unwitnessed signature in a time when witnessed signatures are everywhere.

Assuming you have read my post(s) and the following quote is true, I really expected more that a post insinuating I went back on my word, did something unethical, or otherwise refused to do the right thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_Roman
CBCS prides itself to ensure our customers have the best customer service in the industry.
Post 91 IP   flag post
Collector RexMuff private msg quote post Address this user
I'm relatively new to all this so excuse my naivety, but...your telling me that pertinent information about an integral part of what this company does is only available through Facebook? Just trying to understand why @Hanginglimbs is gettin hung out to dry on this one, seems to me the "staff" at the con weren't staff at all, but simply placeholders
Post 92 IP   flag post
Collector X51 private msg quote post Address this user
No one should ever be the authorized witness of the signatures they acquire for their own books. There is too big of a temptation for fraud whether you're honest and full of integrity or not. Tough situation. A compromise would be discounts on grading or services up to the amount of damages and amount spent. I would consider an unwitnessed signature to be damage or devaluation of the books. That's what it would take for me to be appeased.
Post 93 IP   flag post
Collector Gabriel85301 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
@Gabriel85301 to be clear, I'm not calling into question your integrity. You seem like a good dude.

I just had no idea it was that easy to be vetted for AW

*although the more I read into it, the more it seems that the big names all have the secondary initials needed in addition to the regular AW to prevent forgery and ensure the sig was paid for



I get you. I just do it cause I do it, they always return the receipts.
Post 94 IP   flag post
Collector rtdcomics private msg quote post Address this user
I hope there are still some positives that can be taken out of this thread. There are some that are raising points (not problems) in open conversation for the purpose of discussion and from personal opinions as to small improvements that they could see possible. That does not mean they are attacking the company, the policy, or individuals.
Post 95 IP   flag post
CBCS spaulus private msg quote post Address this user
I just wanted to close things out. I called Hanginglimbs yesterday and we had a long chat about the ASP, his experience, and conventions on a general basis.

I left the conversation thinking that Hanginglimbs articulated some possible improvements for the AS Program. I believe that the company would benefit from the implementation of some of them or versions of his suggestions.

I hope I hear more suggestions from the ASPers out there. Thus far, I have only received one email, but there is still time.
Post 96 IP   flag post
Collector KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user
This makes me seriously doubt the validity of witnessed signatures with CBCS.
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