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Artist signature exceptions?4168

Collector Gabriel85301 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanginglimbs
The CBCS told me that because I had like 10 artists in my list and 20 books that they would just make me a witness instead of me coming back to them over and over to grab a witness. So I filled out a form, got my sigs over a couple of days and returned to drop off the books


I honestly thought people had to be vetted in some way to be an AW. This really doesn't make sense. How is this more secure or valid than a simple COA from a dealer? By this logic, anyone could show up to a show, fill out some paperwork at the CBCS booth, forge a $100 signature 500X, save themselves $50,000 in fees and flip the books for profit.

ok my head hurts now


I included my receipts about paying for the signature behind the board of the comic so it is never called in to question. Did it for some Celebs at FanFest even though I had a CBCS AW present.
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
@Gabriel85301 to be clear, I'm not calling into question your integrity. You seem like a good dude.

I just had no idea it was that easy to be vetted for AW

*although the more I read into it, the more it seems that the big names all have the secondary initials needed in addition to the regular AW to prevent forgery and ensure the sig was paid for
Post 52 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
@Gabriel85301 I get that they were short handed but that is not a good reason to authorize someone as an AW just because they have a lot of books. If anything the profit incentive / greed is the last reason for it.

As Shrewbeer said, this is not saying anything negative about you but someone clearly dropped the ball by not attempting to properly vet you before handing out that kind of responsibility.
Post 53 IP   flag post
Collector Hanginglimbs private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
@Gabriel85301 to be clear, I'm not calling into question your integrity. You seem like a good dude.

I just had no idea it was that easy to be vetted for AW

*although the more I read into it, the more it seems that the big names all have the secondary initials needed in addition to the regular AW to prevent forgery and ensure the sig was paid for


So basically, they provide a certificate of authenticity.
Post 54 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
CGC spends a lot of time and money getting witnesses for shows to run around and verify the authenticity of signatures. CBCS has a different model where responsible individuals are authorized to witness signatures for themselves saving time and money for both parties.

The key to this new model is the integrity of the people authorized as witnesses. If AWs are not properly vetted the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

Someone please tell me that this problem has been resolved.
Post 55 IP   flag post


Collector robertofredrico private msg quote post Address this user
So anybody who comes up to the CBCS booth with a stack of books can be made an on-the-spot witness for their own books?
Post 56 IP   flag post
Collector Hanginglimbs private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertofredrico
So anybody who comes up to the CBCS booth with a stack of books can be made an on-the-spot witness for their own books?


If you have the crew I did in Boston. I don't want to mention her by name, but it seems like the ball was dropped (with my wallet attached to it). I don't think this is how it was supposed to be. Probably an opportunity for retraining.
Post 57 IP   flag post
Collector ONLINE_209 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertofredrico
So anybody who comes up to the CBCS booth with a stack of books can be made an on-the-spot witness for their own books?
I doubt it
Post 58 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLINE_209
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertofredrico
So anybody who comes up to the CBCS booth with a stack of books can be made an on-the-spot witness for their own books?
I doubt it


Why?
Post 59 IP   flag post
Collector ONLINE_209 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLINE_209
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertofredrico
So anybody who comes up to the CBCS booth with a stack of books can be made an on-the-spot witness for their own books?
I doubt it


Why?
because that is not how it is done you have to go through Mark Roman . why is it so believable that any random can walk in and say i am a CBCS AW and at literally the last minute someone is gonnna hand you the paperwork that has no authorization signature on it and allow you to collect autographs that you plan to try and authenticate
Post 60 IP   flag post
Collector Hanginglimbs private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLINE_209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLINE_209
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertofredrico
So anybody who comes up to the CBCS booth with a stack of books can be made an on-the-spot witness for their own books?
I doubt it


Why?
because that is not how it is done you have to go through Mark Roman . why is it so believable that any random can walk in and say i am a CBCS AW and at literally the last minute someone is gonnna hand you the paperwork that has no authorization signature on it and allow you to collect autographs that you plan to try and authenticate


Well, if my books go through without a problem, that is exactly what happened. Just because there is a policy doesn't mean it's going to be followed. My guess is the cbcs crew where I was had no idea what they were doing.
Post 61 IP   flag post
Collector robertofredrico private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLINE_209
why is it so believable that any random can walk in and say i am a CBCS AW and at literally the last minute someone is gonnna hand you the paperwork that has no authorization signature on it and allow you to collect autographs that you plan to try and authenticate



It sounds more like what is happening is someone with a stack of books walks up to the CBCS booth, says "I need a witness", and is being told "You can witness your own books - just sign this paper."
Post 62 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
Let's get back to the artists charging additional grading fees for a moment.

There is an issue of detrimental reliance for the fans ultimately paying these fees to get their signed books graded.

First there is the cost to buy the book in the first place. I do not think I am the only person that bought a few extra comics at my LCS on Wednesday because I heard artist X was going to be at Humongo Con nearby in a couple months. When we are spending our hard earned money in good faith how do we know which books will have these added fees? Its not like the books have warning labels.

Secondly there are the shows themselves. Admission fees only seem to be climbing and it is often necessary to use valuable vacation days for the bigger shows that run for 3-5 days. If we are lucky we just get a guest list. Restricted signing times, added fees, and other sticky details only seem to come out after the tickets have been purchased.

I will get off my soap box for now but I really don't like this trend and believe it will ultimately result in bad outcomes for all concerned.
Post 63 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertofredrico
It sounds more like what is happening is someone with a stack of books walks up to the CBCS booth, says "I need a witness", and is being told "You can witness your own books - just sign this paper."


Which is hard to believe. Yet two people are saying it, one of which I've heard enough from over the past year to believe is not the type to BS. Doesn't make sense.

I hope Mark weighs in on this thread, he's a good guy. There's more to this than meets the eye.
Post 64 IP   flag post
Collector ONLINE_209 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanginglimbs
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLINE_209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLINE_209
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertofredrico
So anybody who comes up to the CBCS booth with a stack of books can be made an on-the-spot witness for their own books?
I doubt it


Why?
because that is not how it is done you have to go through Mark Roman . why is it so believable that any random can walk in and say i am a CBCS AW and at literally the last minute someone is gonnna hand you the paperwork that has no authorization signature on it and allow you to collect autographs that you plan to try and authenticate


Well, if my books go through without a problem, that is exactly what happened. Just because there is a policy doesn't mean it's going to be followed. My guess is the cbcs crew where I was had no idea what they were doing.
keep in mind part of the policy is to send in a copy of your letter that you were supposed to send to Mark Roman requesting to become a CBCS AW in the begining and if accepted he would of signed it he then will email it back as a pdf file you are then to print the letter out with his signature then send the printout in with your books when getting your books slabbed so that being said without that signed letter i doubt they will count the signatures or otherwise everybody else would just start claiming to be a CBCS AW for their own purposes and abuse that power left and right " sorry for the long reply"
Post 65 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
I understand that they need to break in new people now and then but it is not that hard for them to say "I don't know I will have to ask Mark".
Post 66 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user
Doesn't really affect me as I don't collect signed books anymore. But reading this thread, puts a little doubt in the truthfulness, veracity and security of the CBCS witnessed signature program.

Just saying.

Seems to be a scenario whereupon corners can and are cut to bring in the most money with the least amount of effort. Just keep it flowing. Bottom line.

How in the world can a person verify the signatures they obtained on their own books, are actually from the creator or celebrity?
Post 67 IP   flag post
Collector ONLINE_209 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by conditionfreak
How in the world can a person verify the signatures they obtained on their own books, are actually from the creator or celebrity?
for me i stood in line when my turn i handed them my book to be signed and actually watched them sign it they then handed me back my book
Post 68 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by conditionfreak


How in the world can a person verify the signatures they obtained on their own books, are actually from the creator or celebrity?


Two thoughts...
1)If you had a shady person they could slip books that they forged into an order to be graded and later sold. 2)As Shrewbeer brought up, how is it any different than me providing my own COA's and saying I saw them sign the books in question so they should be graded and given a yellow label. Time shouldn't be a consideration on when they were signed. I'm a witness and I saw them signed.
Post 69 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by conditionfreak


How in the world can a person verify the signatures they obtained on their own books, are actually from the creator or celebrity?


Two thoughts...
1)If you had a shady person they could slip books that they forged into an order to be graded and later sold. 2)As Shrewbeer brought up, how is it any different than me providing my own COA's and saying I saw them sign the books in question so they should be graded and given a yellow label. Time shouldn't be a consideration on when they were signed. I'm a witness and I saw them signed.


The difference is the integrity of the vetting process. Without that there is no honor system and you have to hire / pay witnesses.
Post 70 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONLINE_209
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In 1988 I obtained a Stan Lee signature on an Iron Man #1. CGC nor any other grading company existed then. But the process was the same thing that you went through in the above statement. I witnessed the signing.

So what prevents me from being a (temporary) AW and getting 9 books signed by Stan Lee in my presence, and adding my Iron Man signed by him in 1988, representing that it was signed today?

What prevent me from doing the same with a book I did not witness him signing and I found it in the wild last month, and saying to CBCS I witnessed him sign it today?

Seems like every so often, flaws and cracks in the professional grading system pop up. Just enough to put doubt into the minds of those of us that live and breathe comic books.

EDIT: where the heck did that quote come from? That is not what I quoted.
Post 71 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
@conditionfreak You need to have skin in the game. If you are submitting 200+ books to CBCS per year you have something to loose if they catch you attempting to defraud them.
Post 72 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by drchaos
@conditionfreak You need to have skin in the game. If you are submitting 200+ books to CBCS per year you have something to loose if they catch you attempting to defraud them.


Threat or fear of recourse is a reactive system.

A pro active system is elimination of the possibility of fraud by any reasonable means.

The latter, would be the stronger system.
Post 73 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR drchaos private msg quote post Address this user
@shrewbeer Even with hired witnesses there are opportunities for individuals to collude with or bribe the witnesses, especially since most (but not all) CGC witnesses at shows are either low paid or volunteers. Allowing reputable individuals to witness their own books or allowing facilitators to witness books for their customers includes a degree or risk / trust which is where the vetting process comes in.

The only way the process would be foolproof is if the grading companies dragged the artists over to sign off on each submission (you think grading costs are high now).

Another option would be to do away with authorized signatures and just use experts to verify everything. This also adds costs.

The bottom line for anyone in this hobby us ultimately caviat emptor.
Post 74 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by drchaos
@shrewbeer Even with hired witnesses there are opportunities for individuals to collude with or bribe the witnesses, especially since most (but not all) CGC witnesses at shows are either low paid or volunteers. Allowing reputable individuals to witness their own books or allowing facilitators to witness books for their customers includes a degree or risk / trust which is where the vetting process comes in.

The only way the process would be foolproof is if the grading companies dragged the artists over to sign off on each submission (you think grading costs are high now).

Another option would be to do away with authorized signatures and just use experts to verify everything. This also adds costs.

The bottom line for anyone in this hobby us ultimately caviat emptor.


This new information along with the fact that witnesses can drop off books, never "witness" them actually being signed, pick them up later, and submit them really is an eye-opener for me. Seriously, PSA, JSA, and Steiner won't sticker a signature that isn't one that their representatives actually witnessed being signed if it is a part of their witness programs. They will verify them but they don't say they are "witnessed". The comic industry is very different.

So, yes, let the buyer beware.
Post 75 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
@Towmater I don't know where you are getting this idea that CBCS witnesses don't need to be present when the book is signed. You posted that question three months ago and Steve Paulus responded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Paulus
The rules of the program state that an Authorized Witness has to be present when the books are signed. That is clear cut.


Here is the archived thread.

ASP witness question
Post 76 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by drchaos
Someone please tell me that this problem has been resolved.

Have they resolved the problem from 3 weeks ago yet?
Post 77 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@Towmater I don't know where you are getting this idea that CBCS witnesses don't need to be present when the book is signed. You posted that question three months ago and Steve Paulus responded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Paulus
The rules of the program state that an Authorized Witness has to be present when the books are signed. That is clear cut.


Here is the archived thread.

ASP witness question


Because they don't have to be present for commission and the artist fills out paperwork stating that they did it. That paperwork can go to a witness at the convention who returns (NEVER SAT and watched it being done nor witnessed it being done) or it can be mailed back to them.

Happy?
Post 78 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
Quote:
Originally Posted by drchaos
Someone please tell me that this problem has been resolved.

Have they resolved the problem from 3 weeks ago yet?


If they did maybe Jesse O can provide a link to that as well. If not, then we are still waiting for a response.
Post 79 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@Towmater I don't know where you are getting this idea that CBCS witnesses don't need to be present when the book is signed. You posted that question three months ago and Steve Paulus responded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Paulus
The rules of the program state that an Authorized Witness has to be present when the books are signed. That is clear cut.


Here is the archived thread.

ASP witness question


Because they don't have to be present for commission and the artist fills out paperwork stating that they did it. That paperwork can go to a witness at the convention who returns (NEVER SAT and watched it being done nor witnessed it being done) or it can be mailed back to them.

Happy?



No, because that is NOT what you are saying!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
This new information along with the fact that witnesses can drop off books, never "witness" them actually being signed, pick them up later, and submit them really is an eye-opener for me. Seriously, PSA, JSA, and Steiner won't sticker a signature that isn't one that their representatives actually witnessed being signed if it is a part of their witness programs. They will verify them but they don't say they are "witnessed". The comic industry is very different.

So, yes, let the buyer beware.
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