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A Moment of Clarity399

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Collector 6K	6K jsilverjanet private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Thanks
	9 years ago	Post 76 • IP flag post

CBCS Pressing 19.74K	19.74K SteveRicketts private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	BTW, its not a turtles book. That was just a liable that was on my desk that I put there for contrast and scale.
	9 years ago	Post 77 • IP flag post

Collector 6K	6K jsilverjanet private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Ok. Cool
	9 years ago	Post 78 • IP flag post

Collector 579	579 PovRow private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Quote: Originally Posted by Sqeggs Mike, Here's the thing, though: There's a widespread belief that CBCS consistently grades higher than CGC. A book that receives, say, a CBCS 6.0 will receive a CGC 5.0. A CBCS 9.6 might be a CGC 9.2. To my mind, the gap between your grading and CGC's grading is the biggest obstacle to the growth of your company. Has anyone documented this? Actually documented this with specific books and grades? And preferably photo supported? The closest I saw of real documentation was someone on the CGC boards listing four books that went from CBCS to CGC and came back lower from CGC. But these were submitted to CGC's Signature Series, which to my mind totally negates any chance at a fair comparison due to the potential for stress/damage during the whole sig process. Even now I am not sure if that post was actually a really clever joke. I have asked for solid documentation several times now and aside from that one post all I have ever seen is anecdotal. Posts along the line of how experienced a dealer or collector is and how closely they looked at large quantities of CBCS books and can see the overgrading. But that is essentially the sum total of the "evidence". I have yet to see one actual comparison of books going from CGC to CBCS and CBCS to CGC. With all books remaining in their respective holders to avoid more potential damage from packaging etc.
	9 years ago	Post 79 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Quote: Originally Posted by PovRow Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by PovRow Quote: Originally Posted by Stelbert_Stylton Quote: Originally Posted by MusterMark People, let's not allow this thread to degenerate into a pressing thread, of all things. That would be one of the worst things we could do to this thread. If some one wants to talk about pressing, make another thread please. Yeah, let's get back to bashing CGC! MusterMark beat me to it. People use the topic of pressing to derail a thread they don't want others to talk about. They do? How does one determine what motivates another person's posts unless that person reveals that motivation? It would seem that people just post about what they're interested in. How does anyone control (besides mods/admin) what others can talk about, anyway? One method to determine a motivation is to simply read the forums and see the pattern. If you do you will notice there are three topics used most often to derail threads: sports, alcohol(beer or scotch being the most popular) and pressing. The posts come totally out of left field and a few posters make up the majority of the off-topic responses. After the thread gets back on track suddenly one of those off-topic posters will go back, quote a previous pressing or beer or baseball post and it starts again. It is not difficult to discern what is happening. How does one control it? Just delete or move off-topic posts (depending on the content). Both forums already have places to talk about beer, baseball and pressing. Start deleting offensive posts or moving off-topic posts early on in the life of a forum. The precedent is then established. People here are free to create topics. So if they want to go off topic to a current thread, just create a new topic and post there. What if the pattern you claim to be seeing doesn't really exist? Do you have any concrete examples, or are you just theorizing? Human beings are organic creatures, and their conversation follows organics paths. Have you ever been part of a group in which one person constantly tried to steer the conversation to what he/she thought was "on topic"? I have. I gets old pretty fast. Unless a topic is specifically designated to "stay on topic", then the only posts we ought to be concerned with are our own. Deleting posts that someone else took the time to write is rude and off-putting. It says to a poster "I/we don't value your input." I'm absolutely sure that that isn't the case with CBCS. If everyone focused on their own posts, and not how everyone else posts, everyone will get along just fine. "Start deleting offensive posts" and you will have the environment that exists at the CGC boards, which is not healthy in the slightest. As far as leaving off the second part of your post: first, it wasn't relevant to my point, and second, it's right up there in your post for all to read, right...?
	9 years ago	Post 80 • IP flag post

Collector 579	579 PovRow private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown If everyone focused on their own posts, and not how everyone else posts, everyone will get along just fine. "Start deleting offensive posts" and you will have the environment that exists at the CGC boards, which is not healthy in the slightest. So focus on your own posts and stop focusing on mine. BTW, by offensive I mean literally offensive posts like cursing, threatening, racist etc. Which is why I specified deleting offensive posts but moving off-topic posts to an appropriate area. But at this juncture, as across the street, it is best we simply continue. You as is best for you and me as is best for me.
	9 years ago	Post 81 • IP flag post

Collector

16.89K

DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PovRow
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown

If everyone focused on their own posts, and not how everyone else posts, everyone will get along just fine. "Start deleting offensive posts" and you will have the environment that exists at the CGC boards, which is not healthy in the slightest.

So focus on your own posts and stop focusing on mine.

Well, that doesn't make much sense. If no one focused on anyone's posts but their own, there would be no discussion at all, just people posting endless non-sequitors. Surely you don't mean that, do you? There's a second half of that sentence on purpose: "and not HOW everyone else posts", not WHAT everyone else posts. I have to focus on the WHAT, or I wouldn't be able to respond coherently.

I'm not telling people that others should be censored based on what I consider off-topic, after all.

But, no concrete examples of your "pressing as thread derailing theory", then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PovRow
BTW, by offensive I mean literally offensive posts like cursing, threatening, racist etc. Which is why I specified deleting offensive posts but moving off-topic posts to an appropriate area.

I agree, but the context was off-topic posts, not cursing, threatening, and racist posts. But thank you for clarifying that aside.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PovRow
But at this juncture, as across the street, it is best we simply continue. You as is best for you and me as is best for me.

I agree completely. We ought to all post as we think is best for ourselves, provided we stay within the framework of our hosts.

9 years ago

Collector 184	184 VintageComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown But, no concrete examples of your "pressing as thread derailing theory", then? "Team derail" was a commonly used term about a decade ago when pressing became the new hot button. Some who were 'pro pressing' would regularly chime into pressing threads and 'derail' them using humor and other distractions and would take away from the actual discussion at the time. It was well known and visible to anyone there at the time. What Pov says has value. People with vested interests will weigh in on threads that contradict those interests and attempt to either stop them or curtail them. And now that we've all derailed this thread.....
	9 years ago	Post 83 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by VintageComics Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown But, no concrete examples of your "pressing as thread derailing theory", then? "Team derail" was a commonly used term about a decade ago when pressing became the new hot button. Some who were 'pro pressing' would regularly chime into pressing threads and 'derail' them using humor and other distractions and would take away from the actual discussion at the time. It was well known and visible to anyone there at the time. What Pov says has value. People with vested interests will weigh in on threads that contradict those interests and attempt to either stop them or curtail them. And now that we've all derailed this thread..... Ok, but that was over a decade ago, and that hasn't happened much since, because the pressing issue is relatively settled. Bringing up events that happened a decade ago, as if they're still a problem...is that realistic? Obviously, since I like to wander in conversations, I'm relatively sensitive to people complaining...and, thus, threatening my continued presence...just for being "off-topic." Really, if that's the worst offense someone makes, that's hardly worth getting upset about. Yes, people try to derail. No doubt. But there's an easy solution to people trying to derail: you, the individual, just stay on-topic and don't get involved in the side chatter. Trying to get others to conform to what I think is or is not the "right way" to post is a surefire way of developing conflict. And yes, there IS a difference between just being "off-topic", and purposely trying to divert a topic, but again, it's easily resolved by simply staying on-topic. Complaining about others being off-topic...as we are doing here...is just as effective at derailing a thread as the other derailers. And, of course, there's the whole issue of perspective. What may appear to you to be one thing may not, in fact, be that thing at all.
	9 years ago	Post 84 • IP flag post

Collector 100	100 MusterMark private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	So, has any one else also deslabbed any of the new CGC holders yet?
	9 years ago	Post 85 • IP flag post

Collector 100	100 MusterMark private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	So, has any one else also deslabbed any of the new CGC holders yet?
	9 years ago	Post 86 • IP flag post

Collector 579	579 PovRow private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown "Team derail" was a commonly used term about a decade ago when pressing became the new hot button. OK - last word to you on these boards. I said pressing, alcohol and sports were used to derail. You, just like on the CGC boards, pick and choose, ignore the rest and spin new arguments as if your "opponent" had said them. So from this point on regardless of what you say to me you will not get a response. How I wish we had spoiler tags here.
	9 years ago	Post 87 • IP flag post

Collector 579	579 PovRow private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	My apologies for my contribution to the previous few posts. Michael's message is the important thing. Since it is several pages back I'm posting a link back to that original post. https://forum.cbcscomics.com/topic/399/page/1/a-moment-of-clarity/
	9 years ago	Post 88 • IP flag post

Collector 184	184 VintageComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by VintageComics Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown But, no concrete examples of your "pressing as thread derailing theory", then? "Team derail" was a commonly used term about a decade ago when pressing became the new hot button. Some who were 'pro pressing' would regularly chime into pressing threads and 'derail' them using humor and other distractions and would take away from the actual discussion at the time. It was well known and visible to anyone there at the time. What Pov says has value. People with vested interests will weigh in on threads that contradict those interests and attempt to either stop them or curtail them. And now that we've all derailed this thread..... Ok, but that was over a decade ago, and that hasn't happened much since, because the pressing issue is relatively settled. Bringing up events that happened a decade ago, as if they're still a problem...is that realistic? Obviously, since I like to wander in conversations, I'm relatively sensitive to people complaining...and, thus, threatening my continued presence...just for being "off-topic." Really, if that's the worst offense someone makes, that's hardly worth getting upset about. Yes, people try to derail. No doubt. But there's an easy solution to people trying to derail: you, the individual, just stay on-topic and don't get involved in the side chatter. Trying to get others to conform to what I think is or is not the "right way" to post is a surefire way of developing conflict. And yes, there IS a difference between just being "off-topic", and purposely trying to divert a topic, but again, it's easily resolved by simply staying on-topic. Complaining about others being off-topic...as we are doing here...is just as effective at derailing a thread as the other derailers. And, of course, there's the whole issue of perspective. What may appear to you to be one thing may not, in fact, be that thing at all. Without wanting to derail this thread again, The decade ago example was just one example. It happens on various topics. It still happens. Human nature doesn't change, just the situation. Pov is a pretty perceptive dude with a wide range of perspective from what I know about him after posting 80,000 posts over 12+ years on the CGC chat forum. OK, I'm out on this topic. Hope everyone is having a nice Holiday Monday. We had ours last week up here in Canada.
	9 years ago	Post 89 • IP flag post

Collector 184	184 VintageComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by MusterMark So, has any one else also deslabbed any of the new CGC holders yet? I have deslabbed a few. No known issues. They were Bronze high grade books.
	9 years ago	Post 90 • IP flag post

Collector 579	579 PovRow private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by VintageComics Quote: Originally Posted by MusterMark So, has any one else also deslabbed any of the new CGC holders yet? I have deslabbed a few. No known issues. They were Bronze high grade books. Do you know how long they were in the new slab? One of the potentially troubling aspects is how things will manifest over time and with handling because, well, you have to wait to determine if your books are OK or not.
	9 years ago	Post 91 • IP flag post

Collector 184	184 VintageComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by PovRow Quote: Originally Posted by VintageComics Quote: Originally Posted by MusterMark So, has any one else also deslabbed any of the new CGC holders yet? I have deslabbed a few. No known issues. They were Bronze high grade books. Do you know how long they were in the new slab? One of the potentially troubling aspects is how things will manifest over time and with handling because, well, you have to wait to determine if your books are OK or not. Pov, my books were not in the new slab very long. They were fresh subs, I disagreed with the grade on a few of them and cracked them out to resub. Maybe a few days.
	9 years ago	Post 92 • IP flag post

Collector 199	199 comeaux private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Great post Michael ... Nice to see the facts set straight ! I used to be a very strong supporter of CGC and have 100's of CGC slabs that I have been slowly purging. In view of the latest CGC TurdSlabTM disaster, the only thing CGC felt appropriate was to use misinformation as a deflection tactic but fortunately the only people subscribing to their nonsense is the typical CGCbots & drones.
	9 years ago	Post 93 • IP flag post

Collector 55	55 nadabig private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by PovRow Quote: Originally Posted by Sqeggs Mike, Here's the thing, though: There's a widespread belief that CBCS consistently grades higher than CGC. A book that receives, say, a CBCS 6.0 will receive a CGC 5.0. A CBCS 9.6 might be a CGC 9.2. To my mind, the gap between your grading and CGC's grading is the biggest obstacle to the growth of your company. Has anyone documented this? Actually documented this with specific books and grades? And preferably photo supported? The closest I saw of real documentation was someone on the CGC boards listing four books that went from CBCS to CGC and came back lower from CGC. But these were submitted to CGC's Signature Series, which to my mind totally negates any chance at a fair comparison due to the potential for stress/damage during the whole sig process. Even now I am not sure if that post was actually a really clever joke. I have asked for solid documentation several times now and aside from that one post all I have ever seen is anecdotal. Posts along the line of how experienced a dealer or collector is and how closely they looked at large quantities of CBCS books and can see the overgrading. But that is essentially the sum total of the "evidence". I have yet to see one actual comparison of books going from CGC to CBCS and CBCS to CGC. With all books remaining in their respective holders to avoid more potential damage from packaging etc. I would think that if you graded a book at one and then sent it to the other, they would absolutely downgrade the score. I (well really my wife) currently have a book that that is graded at 9.4 that I am extremely reluctant to send elsewhere. I'm not sure if it's one of the holders they use that are now in questions, but I'm not a fan of it. I bought it graded so I have no leg to stand on with it. At any rate, it's a little wavy in there and I personally wouldn't imagine it to be over a 9.0, if even that. So I can just crack it and have an ok copy of the first solo Red Sonja, get it graded elsewhere and likely have a lower grade, or just keep in and let the common folk not be the wiser. That said, that has been a common knock on PGX forever, but somehow they stay in business. I've received books back from CGC that I felt should have been higher and I've received them back feeling they should have been higher. I think we may put too much stock in to what we believe is a science of grading comics.
	9 years ago	Post 94 • IP flag post

Collector 55	55 nadabig private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I would also like to add that I have heard on more than one occasion that one could take a CGC book from a certain time period and then resubmit it back to CGC and get a higher grade. My understanding is there are folks at cons that actually profit from stating they want to buy graded books solely to seek out this exact situation.
	9 years ago	Post 95 • IP flag post

Collector 1.09K	1.09K Stelbert_Stylton private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by nadabig I would also like to add that I have heard on more than one occasion that one could take a CGC book from a certain time period and then resubmit it back to CGC and get a higher grade. My understanding is there are folks at cons that actually profit from stating they want to buy graded books solely to seek out this exact situation. That's what Matt Nelson used to do when he worked at Heritage. He inspected the books Heritage was auctioning off and he'd give an opinion as to what books could be cracked out and improved (by him). Heritage would win those auctions, CPR, and then re-sell in the next auction. Profit!
	9 years ago	Post 96 • IP flag post

Collector 1.36K	1.36K The_Curmudgeon private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by nadabig I would think that if you graded a book at one and then sent it to the other, they would absolutely downgrade the score. It's my understanding that the old label and holder are disposed of and the people actually grading the book never even know the book had previously been slabbed, or what the grade was. Supposedly it just goes through the system like it was a raw copy.
	9 years ago	Post 97 • IP flag post

Collector 184	184 VintageComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Stelbert_Stylton Quote: Originally Posted by nadabig I would also like to add that I have heard on more than one occasion that one could take a CGC book from a certain time period and then resubmit it back to CGC and get a higher grade. My understanding is there are folks at cons that actually profit from stating they want to buy graded books solely to seek out this exact situation. That's what Matt Nelson used to do when he worked at Heritage. He inspected the books Heritage was auctioning off and he'd give an opinion as to what books could be cracked out and improved (by him). Heritage would win those auctions, CPR, and then re-sell in the next auction. Profit! Can you prove that Heritage was winning their own auctions and resubmitting the same books later? This is the 1st I've heard of it happening (not bidding on their own auctions but actually CPRing their own books after winning them).
	9 years ago	Post 98 • IP flag post

Collector 55	55 nadabig private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Comeaux is friggin firey
	9 years ago	Post 99 • IP flag post

Collector 1.09K	1.09K Stelbert_Stylton private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by VintageComics Quote: Originally Posted by Stelbert_Stylton Quote: Originally Posted by nadabig I would also like to add that I have heard on more than one occasion that one could take a CGC book from a certain time period and then resubmit it back to CGC and get a higher grade. My understanding is there are folks at cons that actually profit from stating they want to buy graded books solely to seek out this exact situation. That's what Matt Nelson used to do when he worked at Heritage. He inspected the books Heritage was auctioning off and he'd give an opinion as to what books could be cracked out and improved (by him). Heritage would win those auctions, CPR, and then re-sell in the next auction. Profit! Can you prove that Heritage was winning their own auctions and resubmitting the same books later? This is the 1st I've heard of it happening (not bidding on their own auctions but actually CPRing their own books after winning them). Ask Matt for full details
	9 years ago	Post 100 • IP flag post

Collector 184	184 VintageComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	@comeaux My man, I saw your post last night but didn't respond to it as I was pretty tired and wanted to think about my reply. It looks like the post was scrubbed. I'm the dealer that has stated more than once that I've seen 1000's of CBCS books, and that I thought their early books were graded loosely and I still stand by my previous statement based on the high grade SA and BA that I saw at that time. Bob Storms has also stated it on this forum last week and if you know Bob, he shoots straight as an arrow. We actually discussed it in detail two weeks ago in Orlando as we looked over many books together. I've also heard it from other reputable dealers. I have friends at both companies but friendship and business are always difficult to separate. I've been an exclusively CGC dealer because I have familiarity with the company (I've been submitting since 2003) and I believe in the product. But in running a business I have to use the service that I feel is going to make my business the most money. You might find it amusing to learn that when I joined the CGC chat forum back in 2004 that I also stood up for PGX until I learned more about them. Everyone labeled me a PGX apologist back then too. lol Since the higher end high grade CBCS SA and BA books I followed in auctions in 2014 - 2015 did not do as well as CGC books over all, I made a decision to stick with CGC early on. That being said, if i feel CBCS's grading has tightened up and I couple that with my concerns about the new CGC case, I may try them out. I've just been too busy lately to do some of my own research. I don't follow auction results very closely anymore except for bigger books but I did hear about an Amazing Fantasy #15 CBCS 9.0 fetching over $230K in a recent Comic Connect auction. That's a monster result and speaks to how CBCS is being currently perceived and accepted in the higher end.
	9 years ago	Post 101 • IP flag post

Collector 541	541 Mio private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Comicconnect appears to favour CBCS, I say as I observe that all of the books I saw from the PA Dutch find are in CBCS holders. That is no small endorsement and I imagine increased collector familiarity will inch the prices to about parallel with CGC. Key books already seem more or less there. I just re-directed a submission from CGC to CBCS on account of the new case issues. Apparently there are many doing the same.
	9 years ago	Post 102 • IP flag post

Collector 337	337 DannyBoy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Stelbert_Stylton IMO pressing is definitely restoration, just not as bad as other restoration. If you use a machine to make a comic look nicer, that's restoration. This.
	9 years ago	Post 103 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 486	486 spaulus private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by VintageComics @comeaux My man, I saw your post last night but didn't respond to it as I was pretty tired and wanted to think about my reply. It looks like the post was scrubbed. The mods did remove a post in this thread. Posts are removed for vile language, personal attacks, or unacceptable behavior. Posts are not removed for disagreements that are kept civil or well spoken concerns.
	9 years ago	Post 104 • IP flag post

Collector 1.09K	1.09K Stelbert_Stylton private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by spaulus Quote: Originally Posted by VintageComics @comeaux My man, I saw your post last night but didn't respond to it as I was pretty tired and wanted to think about my reply. It looks like the post was scrubbed. The mods did remove a post in this thread. Posts are removed for vile language, personal attacks, or unacceptable behavior. I saw the post. Which of the three reasons above was the post pulled? For criticizing CBCS or CGC?
	9 years ago	Post 105 • IP flag post

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