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Comics Bronze Age

Dark phoenix saga comics3778

Collector Thearrow private msg quote post Address this user
Opinions on the dark phoenix saga. Thoughts on if i should pick up the saga for $150 they are very fine to near mint.
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Collector Bontchimuz private msg quote post Address this user
Well as a huge fan of all things X teams......I would say $%&@ YES!!!!!
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Collector 00slim private msg quote post Address this user
As an investment, personally, I'd put that money into a very high grade X-Men 134.

But, I don't collect runs anymore, just key issues.
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Which set of books, the moderns?
Post 4 IP   flag post
Collector Thearrow private msg quote post Address this user
The bronze ones shrewbeer
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Collector Atakmunky7 private msg quote post Address this user
Im gonna agree w @00slim. High grade key would be my pick. I got the HC of DPS for about $35 and I can read it if I want without worrying about damaging any single issues. Plus the HC has extra stuff in it.
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thearrow
The bronze ones shrewbeer


If youre talking #129-138 at $15/ per book in VF/NM Id say its a deal worth making if you dont already have them

Unless they are direct editions, then I wouldnt touch them 😁🍺
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Collector Deadpoolica private msg quote post Address this user
$150 for the dark Phoenix saga (129-137) is a STEAL! Grab that for sure
Post 8 IP   flag post
Collector 00slim private msg quote post Address this user
While the 1st Phoenix (101) & Dark Phoenix (134) are definitely worth adding to your collection, keep in mind that comics often see a price hike in the anticipation of a movie.

It may continue to build as the movie gets closer, but after the movie comes out, unless it's a mega smash hit, the price levels off.

This is the time when speculation goes wild & it's more of a Seller's market.

But as a long term investment, it is certainly worth looking at. Especially if you go 9.6 to 9.8
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COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
Make sure you get the direct edition. Bar codes are fugly.
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Collector Drogio private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thearrow
The bronze ones shrewbeer


If youre talking #129-138 at $15/ per book in VF/NM Id say its a deal worth making if you dont already have them

Unless they are direct editions, then I wouldnt touch them 😁🍺


I thought direct editions were mor scarce around that time period
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Collector 00slim private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drogio
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thearrow
The bronze ones shrewbeer


If youre talking #129-138 at $15/ per book in VF/NM Id say its a deal worth making if you dont already have them

Unless they are direct editions, then I wouldnt touch them 😁🍺


I thought direct editions were mor scarce around that time period


Yes. 129 was released in 1980.
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Collector Doc_Cop private msg quote post Address this user
00slim - thanks for sharing the breakdown of direct to newsstand. Much appreciated. And I agree with your key book analysis and the impact the movie will have in favor of the sellers.
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
@00slim Unfortunately that chart is useless in terms of rarety.

Try chasing newsstands from '79-'86. I live it every day . The Direct Edition print runs were lower, but you'll be buried in high grade directs with no newsstands 9.4 and over to be found!

I don't know exactly why this is, but I assume that directs were just better preserved and purchased by collectors while newsstand books were well read and mostly thrown away.

Heres a good example: @JWKyle was nice enough to give me a heads up on a book ive had on my watch list for over a year. It was cbcs raw grade 9.6 and I hadnt noticed it! There are (and have been) at least 30 graded copies at any given time in 9.8 on the bay, all directs. Its been a over year since a 9.6-9.8 newsstand showed up; and the book is from 1982! Unfortunately I passed out 20 minutes before the auction ended last night, slept through my ebay alerts and have been kicking myself in the ass all day today about it 😞
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Collector BrianGreensnips private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drogio
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thearrow
The bronze ones shrewbeer


If youre talking #129-138 at $15/ per book in VF/NM Id say its a deal worth making if you dont already have them

Unless they are direct editions, then I wouldnt touch them 😁🍺


I thought direct editions were mor scarce around that time period


Yes. 129 was released in 1980.
This chart is confusing. What about 1980 and 1981? Does it just fall in between those % ?
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Collector VillageIdiot private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
@00slim Unfortunately that chart is useless in terms of rarety.

Try chasing newsstands from '79-'86. I live it every day . The Direct Edition print runs were lower, but you'll be buried in high grade directs with no newsstands 9.4 and over to be found!

I don't know exactly why this is, but I assume that directs were just better preserved and purchased by collectors while newsstand books were well read and mostly thrown away.

Heres a good example: @JWKyle was nice enough to give me a heads up on a book ive had on my watch list for over a year. It was cbcs raw grade 9.6 and I hadnt noticed it! There are (and have been) at least 30 graded copies at any given time in 9.8 on the bay, all directs. Its been a over year since a 9.6-9.8 newsstand showed up; and the book is from 1982! Unfortunately I passed out 20 minutes before the auction ended last night, slept through my ebay alerts and have been kicking myself in the ass all day today about it 😞



Newsstand copies were damaged by the retailers handing of them, and the spinner racks they were shoved into. Retailers just didn't think at all about the preservation and condition of "kids" material. They received the store orders, ripped open the box, and proceeded to smash the titles into the metal rack. Hence why so many books of that era, regardless of geography, have similar damage to the lower portion of the books specifically. It was a total crap shoot back in those good ol' daze for buyers, but HG NS copies are without a doubt more difficult to find in high grades than directs. Direct books were placed neatly on wood bookshelves essentially, with little to no major defects being caused.
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Collector Darkga private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
@00slim Unfortunately that chart is useless in terms of rarety.

Try chasing newsstands from '79-'86. I live it every day . The Direct Edition print runs were lower, but you'll be buried in high grade directs with no newsstands 9.4 and over to be found!

I don't know exactly why this is, but I assume that directs were just better preserved and purchased by collectors while newsstand books were well read and mostly thrown away.

Heres a good example: @JWKyle was nice enough to give me a heads up on a book ive had on my watch list for over a year. It was cbcs raw grade 9.6 and I hadnt noticed it! There are (and have been) at least 30 graded copies at any given time in 9.8 on the bay, all directs. Its been a over year since a 9.6-9.8 newsstand showed up; and the book is from 1982! Unfortunately I passed out 20 minutes before the auction ended last night, slept through my ebay alerts and have been kicking myself in the ass all day today about it 😞


I know what book you are talking about... I'm sorry that you missed out on one. If I ever decide to let mine go, you'll be the first person I contact.
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drogio
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thearrow
The bronze ones shrewbeer


If youre talking #129-138 at $15/ per book in VF/NM Id say its a deal worth making if you dont already have them

Unless they are direct editions, then I wouldnt touch them 😁🍺


I thought direct editions were mor scarce around that time period


Yes. 129 was released in 1980.


I really hate to see that chart being used.

It's not accurate, and Chuck's guesses are as valid as anyone's...that is, they're just guesses. That chart ought to contain several caveats when presented. Chuck's responsible for that mess.

To answer the question: when Marvel went company-wide with the Direct market cover marking program in early 1979, the Direct versions started being printed in enough numbers that none of them are particularly rare.

What ARE rare are the Direct market test versions, starting with cover date Feb, 1977.

From then until April of 1979, Marvel tested the concept of the Direct market, to see if it was sustainable, and used the "fat diamond/slim diamond" method to differentiate between standard newsstand comics of the time.

This, for example, is a Direct market version:




It is NOT properly called a "Whitman variant", because, while Whitman was, indeed, an early user of the Direct market system, and almost certainly the biggest, they weren't the ONLY ones, as the later (5/79 cover date) rollout of the DM program shows, AND because we know that Phil Seuling's Seagate Distribution was a Direct market customer at this time (since the DM was Phil's idea.)

There are, as of this moment, 62 copies, by my count, of Spectacular Spiderman #3, newsstand version, and TWO copies of the Direct market version.
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkga
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
@00slim Unfortunately that chart is useless in terms of rarety.

Try chasing newsstands from '79-'86. I live it every day . The Direct Edition print runs were lower, but you'll be buried in high grade directs with no newsstands 9.4 and over to be found!

I don't know exactly why this is, but I assume that directs were just better preserved and purchased by collectors while newsstand books were well read and mostly thrown away.

Heres a good example: @JWKyle was nice enough to give me a heads up on a book ive had on my watch list for over a year. It was cbcs raw grade 9.6 and I hadnt noticed it! There are (and have been) at least 30 graded copies at any given time in 9.8 on the bay, all directs. Its been a over year since a 9.6-9.8 newsstand showed up; and the book is from 1982! Unfortunately I passed out 20 minutes before the auction ended last night, slept through my ebay alerts and have been kicking myself in the ass all day today about it 😞


I know what book you are talking about... I'm sorry that you missed out on one. If I ever decide to let mine go, you'll be the first person I contact.


Thanks! And assuming I dont have one by then, you know I'll be more than happy to pay a good premium over FMV for it as well 🍺🍺
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
By contrast, there are 50 Direct market copies of X-Men #129, and 39 newsstand copies for sale on eBay at this moment, by my count.

That's a pretty even spread.

If Chuck's numbers were anywhere close to being correct, for a book that came out in 1979 (as X-Men #129 did), there should only be...say...5-10% Direct versions, and 90-95% newsstands, right...?

But it's a 55/45 split, in FAVOR of Direct versions. How can that be...?

Even accounting for the fact that newsstands were "destroyed" at this point (1979), that spread seems wildly unlikely if the Direct market only accounted for "6% of Marvel's sales at this point", as Jim Shooter said, and Chuck repeats.

How could so many Direct copies have survived, and so few newsstands, in comparison...?

Answer: Chuck's numbers...and even Jim Shooter's estimate...are wrong.
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COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
By contrast, there are 50 Direct market copies of X-Men #129, and 39 newsstand copies for sale on eBay at this moment, by my count


Without looking, I would be willing to bet as well that the direct copies are in much nicer condition on average
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Collector 00slim private msg quote post Address this user
I think for Modern books, the chart is much more accurate.
Post 22 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
I think for Modern books, the chart is much more accurate.


You willing to do a little experimenting, to see if that's true...?
Post 23 IP   flag post
Collector 00slim private msg quote post Address this user
What did ya have in mind?

According to Chuck, the early numbers are from Jim Shooter:

"A critical bit of data about newsstand ratios comes from a long conversation on the subject that I had with Jim Shooter, way back in 1979. Jim had been quietly keeping track of Seagate's sales to comics shops, even though that was not really within the pervue of his role as Editor-In-Chief. What he told me at that time was that approximately 6% of Marvel's total sales were going into comics shops through Seagate (and a couple of other smaller distributors), but that certain fan-favorite titles (such as X-Men) were over 10%. What was critically important, however, was that this was the only growth area in Marvel's sales."

http://milehighcomics.com/newsletter/031513.html
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00slim
What did ya have in mind?

According to Chuck, the early numbers are from Jim Shooter:

"A critical bit of data about newsstand ratios comes from a long conversation on the subject that I had with Jim Shooter, way back in 1979. Jim had been quietly keeping track of Seagate's sales to comics shops, even though that was not really within the pervue of his role as Editor-In-Chief. What he told me at that time was that approximately 6% of Marvel's total sales were going into comics shops through Seagate (and a couple of other smaller distributors), but that certain fan-favorite titles (such as X-Men) were over 10%. What was critically important, however, was that this was the only growth area in Marvel's sales."

http://milehighcomics.com/newsletter/031513.html


Consider the example of the X-Men #129 I gave above. This was a book that was published in October of 1979.

However...when you look at the number of copies available on any given day on eBay, admittedly unscientific, you see that the Direct copies typically match, and even outweigh, the newsstand copies, across the board.

So, how can the Direct market have only accounted for 6% of Marvel's sales in 1979, when it accounts for roughly 50% or more of the extant copies available for sale today?

The problem is, Chuck doesn't say WHEN he had this conversation with Shooter, or to what timeframe Shooter was referring. I suspect that 6% number referred to 1977-1978, when this would have been true. By 1979, when Marvel instituted the Direct cover marking policy company-wide, that was no longer the case at all. After all...why would Marvel institute such a policy...in LATE 1978, no less!...for books printed and distributed beginning in Feb/Mar of 1979 (May/June, 1979 cover dates), if that market was only 6% (or even 10%) of sales?

Makes no sense.

I suspect, by the year 2000, Chuck's numbers are pretty accurate. 2000-on newsstand copies are hideously tough to find, especially for obscure titles.

However...everything from about 1997 back is pretty easy, with not much looking.

The numbers from 1979-1995, then, aren't really close at all.

And remember: Chuck was a DIRECT MARKET distributor and retailer, and still is. He didn't participate in the newsstand market, so his guess was...literally...as good as anyone's about any real numbers of that market. As I've detailed elsewhere, one can extrapolate some information from the Statements of Ownership that were printed in the 70's and 80's, and it suggests that newsstand sales...especially in the early to mid 90's...weren't anywhere close to what Chuck is claiming (and, of course, Chuck CHARGES MORE for newsstand copies...so, he has a built-in conflict of interest.)
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Collector Drogio private msg quote post Address this user
What is a popular comic from 1978 or 1977 we can test this using eBay numbers?
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Collector VillageIdiot private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drogio
What is a popular comic from 1978 or 1977 we can test this using eBay numbers?


NFL Superpro# 1
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Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drogio
What is a popular comic from 1978 or 1977 we can test this using eBay numbers?


Amazing Spiderman #166 is a good example.
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Collector Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user
It's a shame this thread has been turned into another opportunity to debate newsstand vs direct.

To the OP: buy them if you like them
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