Grading Companies3754
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown That is a very interesting concept. I believe that CBCS graders are currently much better than I at grading and restoration detection, and thus take their word as gospel, with very rare exception. The only way to "break the chains" of being a slave (lol), would be for to learn and experience enough for me to legitimately believe I can stand eye to eye with them on a grade opinion. It brings up another interesting thought as well. People pay massive premiums for 9.9 books. Quite a few have argued that given the standards, there should be a lot more of them. Thus, there are books out there graded 9.8 and 9.9 that are essentialy equal, and anyone paying for that 9.9 is a slave, given that they could find a 9.8 book of equal quality for a hell of a lot less money. The bottom line is that labels do add or subtract value, even if not deservedly so. In an online marketwhere one cannot hold the book to inspect it, more often than not we simply dont have any other option than to slave away. |
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| Post 201 • IP flag post | ||
 CBCS Pressing
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SteveRicketts private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer I can attest to the fact that there is indeed a standard for a 9.9 or 10. It's not in any way of equal quality to a 9.8. There is a difference that is visible 100% of the time if you know what you're looking at. 9.9 and 10 are not grades that are given out to books at random. If a book is 9.8, it is given that grade. If it is 9.9, it is given that grade. |
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| Post 202 • IP flag post | ||
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @SteveRicketts I should've been more clear, the previous arguments (and my statement) were referring to CGC 9.8-9 books, not CBCS. You've explained to me in the past the (CBCS) difference, and I think it's legit  |
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| Post 203 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer Absolutely! That should be the goal of anyone who has more than a passing interest...and investment...in graded books. And, it's what the grading companies want, too. How so...? Because the grading companies work best with an educated and informed customer base. They really don't want people worshiping them...protest as they might...and bestowing upon them god-like powers of comic book grading. It puts pressure on them that they really don't want or need, and it creates wildly unrealistic expectations of perfection. It stifles them, and when a customer says "what?? 7.5??? Last month, you said this was an 8.5!! Are you THAT incompetent??? This is an OUTRAGE!!" (And yes, grading companies get these calls ALL...THE...TIME.) And THOSE kinds of reactions are what you get from stupid, pissed off, ignorant customers...and some have even threatened lawsuits. Now, I don't know about you, but even the THREAT of a lawsuit wastes valuable time and resources, resources that are far better spent elsewhere. And, after all, it's not the GRADING COMPANIES' fault that the market is ridiculous, and pays absurd premiums for tiny differences in conditions. An informed and educated customer base doesn't have these unrealistic expectations, and they are A LOT more forgiving and patient. They understand that it is an OPINION, and that opinions can change. As long as they are reasonably consistent, then their customer base is happy, and everyone does well. Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer Absolutely true, with the slight exception that people don't pay massive premiums for ALL 9.9s. However, the book is the book, whether it's graded 9.8 or 9.9. I don't have anywhere near enough experience with CBCS, but I do know, from long, bitter experience with CGC, and a basic understanding of statistics, that 9.9 and 10 grades are artificially held back, even if only subconsciously, in an effort to keep market credibility, long since a mere reflex at this point. "That's silly, DB. Lots of people who THINK they can grade, can't." True. However, that truth does not negate the fact that there are people out there who examine comics under magnification, and are so obsessive about these details, that they know the difference. There aren't many of them...but they do exist. I've gotten six 10s from CGC, and two 9.9s. I should have gotten twice that in 10s, and 20-30 9.9s (over submissions of 3,000-4,000 books, 75-80% of which have been 9.8s) over the years. Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer No. The labels do not add or subtract value. If that were true, the empty slabs would be "worth" that additional value...and, obviously, since nothing can be worth less than nothing (except theoretically), those empty slabs don't have negative value, either. The value that you believe is being added (or taken away) is only the perception of the market. The value is in the book...not the slab. Without the book, the slab has NO (or nominal) value. A 9.9 New Mutants #98 slab and label has no value without the book. Don't believe me...? Consider this: if one were to buy that New Mutants #98 9.9 that you linked in another thread...beauty, by the way...and showed it to one's friends, there would be the usual ooohs and ahhhhs. Then, crack it out of the slab. Would that empty slab and label have any value? No, of course not. Would the book ITSELF be "worth" a lot less...? Sure, because the perception has changed, rightly or wrongly. But...in theory, at least...that book could go in a NEW slab, end up with the same grade (although in practice, we know this isn't true...the book could have nothing happen to it, and 9,999 times out of 10,000, it would end up in a 9.8 slab), and VOILA! It's now "worth" that 9.9 price again. That's because the BOOK contains all the value, not the SLAB. I understand that it's a little hard to wrap one's head around, but that 9.9...or 10, or 7.5, or whatever...has no value, in and of itself. If something has no value in and of itself, it cannot ADD value, that it does not have, to something else. Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer That's not true, either. One assumes that, when one buys a slab online, they are going to, eventually, receive the book in hand and be able to inspect it. It is at that point that the ability to grade kicks in, if it exists. |
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| Post 204 • IP flag post | ||
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Grading a book after purchase just plain sucks. Basically just telling yourself wether or not you got hosed. One of the many reasons I wont buy (or be a slave to lol) CGC graded books, especially not PGX |
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| Post 205 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer You can look at it that way, sure...but you could also look at it and say "I'm doing my due diligence, to make sure what I received is what I bought." Life is messy, things happen, books get damaged, books are overgaded, what have you. Online...especially with eBay...you have the right to inspect something when you receive it, precisely because you can't inspect it in person before you buy it. |
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| Post 206 • IP flag post | ||
 Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Just not true about "breathability" of PETG. PETG is considered a GOOD gas barrier. Adding glycol to the PET is done to prevent the crystallization of the plastic that PET is prone to over time. And the sealing of the outer slab matters little. CGC's new outer slab is not sealed so tight that it is say water proof. The inner well - no matter what it is made of - is the part that is sealing the comic up (more or less) airtight. Some links https://www.lairdplastics.com/product/materials/petg http://blog.wheaton.com/pet-vs-petg-what-is-the-difference/ And did I mention that BAREX IS NO LONGER BEING MADE?? CGC doesn't use Barex for their inner well now. They tried to just use sheets of Mylar (which is also a polyester film with an extra manufacturing step) and that didn't work out so well. When I asked a few months ago they said they had switched to a polyester plastic film. Finally - there have been numerous accelerated aging tests of paper. A few using MCP. Where polyester film envelopes are used (Mylar) there was no difference in results whether the Mylar envelope was sealed shut or left open at the top. In these accelerated aging tests, MCP paper - when "interleaved" did help preserve the paper. Two problems for the case of MCP helps here. First off -accelerated aging tests are extreme environments. Basically if you store your comics in a diesel engine test lab located in the tropics. MCP would be beneficial. At the temperature and humidity levels you find comfortable in your house, your comic books are also happy and MCP paper probably isn't doing much of anything. Second, just what is "interleaved"? The tests I've seen didn't specify, but interleaved sounds like a lot more MCP than one or two sheets in a comic book. It's not that MCP does "harm" after it's "full". It's that MCP may well be an inert/doesn't matter thing for people that store their comics in normal conditions. I feel like the debate on if professional grading and encapsulation of comic books adds value is semantics. YES - OK - the comic is the same comic graded or not. But NO - it's easy to see many comics sell for more $$ after being professionally graded and slabbed. I'm old - and have been actively buying and selling comic books since the mid 70's. Professional grading's value rests on near universal acceptance. The lack of professional grading was holding the value of the BIG key books back. It so, sooooo common before professional grading - and still happens now with raw - that arguing the grade of a book was just another tactic to argue the price. A collector would buy a key issue - let us say TOS 39 - from a dealer as a VERY FINE. Two years later goes to sell it and dealers - even the SAME dealer the collector bought the book from - tells him it's a FINE copy. Condition was lawyer-ed endlessly. AND then there was restoration. It's difficult to detect very small amounts of professional color touch. I find it impossible to spot slight trimming. There were not going to be any Million dollar sales until an established, widely accepted grading company (or two) were established. No one was dropping 3 million on an Action 1 without some widely accepted professional grading that said "this is a 9.0 unrestored". |
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| Post 207 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan Of course...because the buying public perceives that they're going to get what they pay for. It's not that slabbing ADDS value. It does not. As I have explained, the slab only confirms what is already in front of you. In that respect, it's not that the graded books are "worth more"...and again, there are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of books that are worth LESS than the price it was acquired for...it's that UNgraded books are "priced less" than they REALLY ARE worth (and, again, this too is changing) because people are simply afraid of not getting what they paid for. If I buy a raw NM Hero For Hire #1 for $3,000...about the going rate for a slabbed 9.4...and I get it graded, and the grading company AGREES with my assessment...great! I've made a decent purchase. If the grading company DISagrees with my assessment, and instead thinks it's a 9.6...well, then, I've potentially made money! But if they DISagree, and it turns out to be a 9.2, or a 9.0...well, I've just paid far more than that book is "worth" IN THAT PARTICULAR SLAB. The differences between 9.0, 9.2, 9.4, and 9.6 are so minute, the vast majority of people...even comics buyers...wouldn't be able to tell you the difference. The difference in price, however, is STAGGERING (and totally ridiculous.) So, then, what you see people paying for is CONFIDENCE. The slab itself: worthless. That book IN that slab...? Now I've got confidence. I know the book is very close to what I want, and because many people agree, the price is what the book is ACTUALLY WORTH in that particular level of preservation. Raw prices, then, are DEPRESSED because of fear of the unknown. It's not that slabs add value...they don't...it's that the lack of the slab produces fear, which produces an unwillingness to gamble. Once that book is in a slab...then the book is free to sell for what it was REALLY worth (or "worth" ) the whole time (and, to be blunt, what a handful of people have known since the beginning, and made tidy livings off.) Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan Absolutely...with some VERY notable exceptions, mainly the pedigrees. It's been said before: prior to slabbing, the pedigree was the distinction that a book was MOST LIKELY not fiddled with, that what was promised was what would be delivered. Since slabbing, you've seen pedigrees sink to essential non-premium status, with the exception of the biggest hitters (White Mountain, Pacific, Church.) But before slabbing...buying a pedigree was as close to assurance as you could get...and prices reflected it, like the White Mountain sale of AF #15 for nearly $40,000...and remember, that was on a pre-auction estimate of $14k-$17k, AND at a time when its top value in the OPG was a mere $10,000 or so in what they called "NM94." Why did it sell for so much...? There wasn't a slab in sight, and wouldn't be for another six years. It sold for so much because of confidence. People understood that the "White Mountain" AF #15 was unrestored, and in actual high grade. They didn't need the slab...and the slab, when it DID come along (and get graded 9.4), only reinforced what people already knew. A couple of someones were willing to pay a staggering (at the time) premium...on the very first SA book to cross $10,000, by the way...because they knew exactly what they were getting. It wasn't the slab that did it...it was the confidence, the perception of the people buying it, because THAT book was worth THAT much. And...were that particular copy to be unslabbed, I doubt it would sell for substantially less than it does slabbed, because people know what it is. Slab not necessary in that case. Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan That's an interesting thought experiment, but I don't think that's true, at least, not entirely. I think, had there been no slabbing, the Church Action #1 would have broken the $1,000,000 with no problem...again, because it was the Church copy. Same with the Allentown 'Tec #27. You substitute "slabbing" for "pedigree", and you have the same conclusion: people willing to pay what a book is "actually worth", because they are confident in what they're buying. |
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| You make an excellent point that prior to CGC's entry into the hobby, it was the pedigreed books that came with faith and confidence. So there were books that were universally accepted as the or one of the best available copies, with no restoration. Professional grading leveled that field some what - and now while there are a few pedigrees that command a premium, most collectors for most pedigrees just seem to feel a 9.4 is a 9.4. If the Church Action 1 ever comes on the market, it will fetch millions, not a million - assuming the assessment of it's condition is correct. Experts that have seen it believe it to be a true NM. With a 9.0 Action 1 having achieved three million I still maintain that even the Church copy of Action 1 will - when ever graded and sold - sell for more $$ because of professional grading. Professional grading helped Action 1 surpass one million dollars. When the very, very best copy comes up for sale, it will benefit from that benchmark established. |
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| Post 209 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I would argue that any perception of added value is actually contained within the grading service, the "professional opinion" if you will. Once a slab is cracked that opinion goes poof like a Mr. Meeseeks fulfilling his task. And along with it any added perceived value. | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan Of course. It is almost certainly a $5,000,000-$10,000,000 book. I was only responding to your point that the $1,000,000 barrier couldn't have been crossed without slabbing. If any book could have, it would have been the Church Action #1. In fact, COINS almost crossed that barrier, without slabbing. The Dexter 1804 dollar, unslabbed, brought $990,000 in 1989. Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan Maybe. It's certainly possible that the book might not be slabbed. Anderson is not going to have it slabbed any time soon. This, the most famous copy of the most famous comic book of all time, probably wouldn't need it. |
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| Post 211 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Generally, this is true. But the label and case without the book is worthless. The book itself is where all the value rests. The book can be re-slabbed. If it IS re-slabbed, and comes back a lower grade...assuming everything else remains the same...is the book "worth less"...? If it comes back a higher grade...again, nothing else having changed...is the book "worth more"...? It's the same book, in the same condition. What changed? Only the number on the label. Also...how do you account for the phenomenal prices that pedigree copies brought, prior to the advent of slabbing...? There were no grading services, no "professional opinions" (which isn't strictly true, but there wasn't slabbing, for sure), so how does one account for those examples...and there were quite a few of them, including almost all of the Church collection...where there was "added value" without a grading service? As mentioned above, there has been a distinct narrowing of the gap between raw books and graded books. That is explained by the knowledge of buyers who are confident in their assessment of the condition of a raw book. So, it's not always true that once a slab is cracked that any perceived added value goes "poof." AND...on top of that, there are people who will pay "9.2 prices" for a 9.0, given the right circumstances, for example. |
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| Post 212 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @DocBrown I was mostly agreeing with you, but differently. The plastic has no value, other than protection, which is lost upon opening, and an opinion, which is also lost upon opening. A slab without a book has no value. A slab with a book has the value of the book, but I also place value on protection and the CBCS opinion, which of course vanishes without the book inside. |
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Yes, this. Thank you. You say it short and sweet.... Empty slabs in good condition have a bit of value  I sell mine at the local comic book store. I used to sell them on eBay but the local store is easier and the owner likes to pick out a few himself. If in nice shape they quickly disappear at $4 each. Collectors like to use them as display cases. A few even make up their own labels... "Joe's awesome copy of ASM 100" or such. |
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| Post 214 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan Yes, but we all know we're not referring to the "re-use" value, or the protection value, of slabs being the "added value" part of the discussion, right...? Those things have value, yes, but that's not the difference between a raw ASM #300 selling for $500, and a 9.8 selling for $2,000. The reason a raw copy of ASM #300 sells for $500 is because the buyers won't risk more on the unknown. They are UNSURE of the book's actual condition. The 9.8 sells for $2,000 not because it is "slabbed", but because the buyer knows it's in pretty damn nice condition. There are label chasers, who couldn't care less about the book inside, and only want that slab with that number, SURE. But they aren't the majority, and they certainly don't make up the foundation of the slabbed market (although this, admittedly, may be changing.) It is guaranteed that if two knowledgeable bidders could look at the book beforehand, and both thought it was a slam-dunk 9.8...the book doesn't end up at $500. I get that there's a chicken or the egg aspect to this conversation, I do. Is it a 9.8 because it's really nice, or is it "really nice" because it's a 9.8...? But in the final review, it's a 9.8 because it's really nice, and that's why the book is valued the way it is, not the other way around. |
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| Post 215 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I don't know of any dealer that can reliably get the going 9.8 slabbed price on a raw book. Maybe a few, maybe sometimes. But for the most part if you want the 9.8 price on say an ASM 300 it's going to have to be in a 9.8 slab by CGC or CBCS It's why dealers send in books to be slabbed. It's why the grading companies offer precreening. There is an old joke about an umpire being asked about the difference between balls and strikes. His answer was "they are whatever I call them" A beautiful copy of ASM 300 is a beautiful copy in or out of a slab. Any slab, for that matter. But it's not going to get wide acceptance as a 9.8 until an "umpire" everyone trusts calls it. Which - returning to the original book being discussed - is why the PGX Hulk 181 is $25K and not $150K. Not so many people trust that umpire |
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| Post 216 • IP flag post | ||
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AndyRexia private msg quote post Address this user | |
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| Post 217 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan You get no argument from me on any of this. I live that every day, although I do have a base of people who know that if I say it's a 9.8, it's almost certainly going to slab at 9.8. And I HAVE gotten 9.8 prices for raw books that I said were 9.8. But, for the most part, it has to be in that slab to get its true value. The argument is that it's the book...not the slab or the label...that has the value. And once someone realizes that, if they want to realize it, it frees them from being a label slave, and all the negative baggage I've mentioned that comes with that. The reason that PGX 9.9 Hulk #181 is only "$25,000" (or whatever it's actually worth) is not because it's in a PGX slab...but because it's not a 9.9 caliber copy, and would never grade 9.9 at a reputable company. By the way...neither is the CGC 9.9 anymore. Its corners have been slightly blunted over time due to SCS. |
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| Post 218 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Which is precisely why I said the CBCS/CGC opinion carries value. Once that opinion vanishes the book price goes back to the price people are willing to pay when an amount of uncertain risk is involved. That difference between $500 and $2K, that's the value the market is placing upon not having to worry about risk because of an experienced third party opinion. If the book is unable to attain $2K by itself, it is lacking the value that opinion can give it. | ||
| Post 219 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Then I'll go back to the White Mountain AF #15 example, and ask "how is it that that book...lacking CGC/CBCS' opinion...manage to sell for a price that smashed all records in 1993?" The opinion of CGC/CBCS DOES have value...about $30 worth, in most cases. Attempting to monetize that opinion is both a conflict of interest (it exposes them to the issue of collusion), and an overreach into the wallet of its customers, simply because they can. The book is valuable because it's in the condition that it is in. CGC/CBCS didn't MAKE the book be in that condition. They simply certified that it was, in fact, that condition. As such, they didn't "add value"...that value already existed within the book itself. The difference in price between the "average raw copy" (and no DEALER is selling a 9.8 caliber copy for $500...we're talking about plain ol' eBay auctions) and a slabbed 9.8 copy is not a function of the slab...it is a function of the books themselves. That $500 may be an actual $500 9.4. It may be a 9.6. It may be an 8.0. The slabbed 9.8? We know what it is, and what to expect. That's where the difference lies. |
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| Post 220 • IP flag post | ||
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Odvar private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Completely agree. |
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| Post 221 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
| By the way...it's not true, at least not entirely, that a book that is de-slabbed goes back to the way it was before it was slabbed. Much of the time, the market accepts the "grade it used to be", which, while carrying no official status whatsoever, is still better than no grade at all. See my aforementioned Bronze age key that was a 9.0, then became a 7.5, then an 8.0, and was sold as a 9.0 raw with the 9.0 label. My friend got the 9.0 price, even though the slab was gone, and, theoretically if the SLAB is what gives it is value, should have gone back to its original pre-any slab value. It didn't, because there's a level of confidence that comes with a dealer you trust, and an old label, that doesn't exist pre-slab, even though it is now POST-slab. Interesting, no? |
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| Post 222 • IP flag post | ||
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comic_book_man private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan @Ironman I think you are mixing the Hulk #181 9.9 thread with the Grading Companies thread(where you are reading this now). You mentioning my book here is the first time it's been discussed here. Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown This is true, in the Hulk #181 9.9 thread we discussed this, the value is more acceptably in the 9.6 - 9.8 signature series range which I imagine will probably end up being somewhere between $15,000 - $25,000. I am going to take some new photos in the morning with a black foreground to reduce a lot of the glare(it still has quite a bit on the front cover shots). I looked it over again today and even though we've discussed 9.6, it's totally a 9.8 if you look at it with natural lighting and without glare/plastic wrap. Not that I would ever regrade or re-encapsulate it, with witnessed signatures and a nice case there is no reason to other than the dislike of "PGX" - but whoever buys it will enjoy a beauty of a copy. Son's Birth > Comics  |
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| Post 223 • IP flag post | ||
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Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown What I find "interesting" is if that person who bought the raw "9.0" subbed it back to CGC the best it would probably get is an 8.0. Did you tell your "client" to disclose that the book had been resubbed and came back a 7.5 and then an 8.0? Things that make you go hmmm... |
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| Post 224 • IP flag post | ||
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poka private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Logan510 like putting fuel on the fire | ||
| Post 225 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Logan510 I would appreciate it very much if you would stop trying to interact with me. You don't post in good faith, and everything you post with respect to me is disingenuous, designed only to cause trouble. Thanks. |
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| Post 226 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by comic_book_man Ah, that's right...that's the book you're selling, right? Big difference between 9.6 and 9.8 for that book. I wouldn't worry too much about online assessments. It's impossible to grade a book from pictures/scans, even the best scans/pics. I believe that this book would do best as a CBCS VSP candidate. |
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Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Would you prefer I talk about you behind your back like you do about other people here on other message boards? |
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| Post 228 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown I concur. To quote Jean Luc Picard, "Make it so." Seriously, that PGX slab is wack dog.  |
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| Post 229 • IP flag post | ||
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Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Logan510 I'm guessing the answer to my question is a "no". Interesting, but not at all surprising. |
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