Grading Companies3754
 Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego That is ONE small reason. Their policy is written for X amount. Like mine. I would have to call and get a temporary bump if I had big enough or enough books. I pressed two AF 15's this week. It didn't cause me to be over my policy limit. Grading services, pressing services and other business endeavors (say diamond cutters) work on a value added basis. The item and it's owner benefit from an increase in value. Sometimes a very substantial increase in value. The service expects to benefit more if the owner and item benefits more. Does anyone really believe that book worth $200,000 should be graded for the same price as one that worth $200? |
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| Post 176 • IP flag post | ||
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comic_book_man private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego LOL! so true. but hey, isn't insurance just for suckers anyway? I mean, insurance companies make huge profits off of us because a high-cost claim rarely needs to be covered. Like the odds of CBCS burning to the ground without time to relocate the books I'd say are at least 10,000,000:1 or greater...they have so many employees, alarm systems(motion,smoke,gas, etc), a local fire department, the list goes on...that the only way it would burn down would be due to an act of nature that even furthers the rarity of the event taking place. So why should I pay for that as the customer? I shouldn't. But we do. Insurance is appealing, that's why so many of those companies are making bank off our bad bets. I never feel like "we have insurance" should be a reason to use a company other than like a "professional assurance". They could skip the insurance and with the additional profit they make use that to provide their own assurances to us if they "lost a book" or "accidentally damaged it". |
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| Post 177 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego I personally agree. But some people do not. The savings and TAT are of primary importance to them. I'd also point out that for most submissions the savings might be $3-$7. But if the book is worth $10,000, the difference in grading costs is over $200. It's $40 tops with PGX. Franklin called it penny wise and pound foolish. But a libertarian should appreciate people making their own decisions on how and with whom they spend their money. |
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| Post 178 • IP flag post | ||
 COLLECTOR
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
@comic_book_man They are in Hurricane Alley, so...yeah, let's keep the insurance.  |
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| Post 179 • IP flag post | ||
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COLLECTOR
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| If you own a $10,000 book and you are pinching pennies on the grading instead of going to the place with the best reputation you don't deserve to own a $10,000 book. imo Honestly, that's just sad. |
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| Post 180 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Hurricanes in Florida, Tornadoes in Oregon. Damn grading companies should be in Arizona  |
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| Post 181 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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poka private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @IronMan fires | ||
| Post 182 • IP flag post | ||
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COLLECTOR
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I vote for Ohio. | ||
| Post 183 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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comic_book_man private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Yeah, I don't like my comics moist and shredded, or in a tree next to Grandma Wigglebee's cat. Keep the insurance please! But, it is a suckers bet. CBCS should cut those prices in half by only getting insurance during the hurricane season(possible?). Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego It may be sad, but it's practicality...and who are you, me, or anyone to judge them? Nobody "deserves" anything, in America we earn it...they earned their $10,000 book somehow, so it's their right to choose it's fate and we accept that. Or at least we should, but we don't especially when it comes to poor old PGX. |
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| Post 184 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Look on eBay, ComicLink, ComicConnect. They are there. What kind of libertarian are you that you believe people can't do what they want with their property. They can use a $10K book for a drink coaster if they want... Just teasing... |
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| Post 185 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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comic_book_man private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan AGREED. I'm in Arizona, you too?!  |
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| Post 186 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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comic_book_man private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by poka NO WHERE IS SAFE FOR OUR BOOKS AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!! I TAKE IT BACK, BUY THE INSURANCE!!! (except PGX - but that's OK the garage door is made of steel and the guard dog is always on alert) SICK 'EM SNOWBALL!!!  |
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| Post 187 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by comic_book_man No, southern tip of Indiana. Just mentioned the first high and dry state that came to mind that I haven't read much about natural disasters... |
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| Post 188 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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comic_book_man private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan Sometimes we have small earthquakes, wild fires, and scorching heat in the southern region. But if you live up north, outside the tree line, you see nice cool temperatures, no fires, and access to the I-40 straight across the US for those fast shipping times.  If you start a comic grading company here please let me know so I can help fund it. We can call it CBCGX (CBCS + CGC + PGX). Best of all 3 and god, doesn't that just roll off the tongue so nice!! ...JK |
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| Post 189 • IP flag post | ||
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Rafel private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan I would rather see them in Pacifica, California if you ask me. |
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Collector
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Rafel private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego I'm a Republican. |
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| Post 191 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan I know you are teasing, but I will answer that as a Libertarian. As a Libertarian I believe every individual has the right to do whatever they want with their own justly acquired property. However, I am under no moral obligation to approve of people making bad decisions, even if I recognize their right to make them. Also, my personal subjective opinion of what someone "deserves" has zero bearing on their individual right to possess. Example, I recognize Trump's "right" to possess the office of President (I even voted for the Jackwagon), however that recognition doesn't mean I think he "deserves" the office. |
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| Post 192 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| If a boardie founds a new grading company it had better be called "SOON." I'll let someone else figure out the acronym. | ||
| Post 193 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan Yes, but the "convicted of a crime" was your test. The comics industry is small potatoes for most. There's fraud committed on a broad scale throughout, but it's mostly petty, so no one bothers to take anyone to court, or press charges. Also...collectors behave like the worst of addicts. They will tolerate far more than the average person, because they're afraid of being cut off from getting their fix. "Comic Book Guy" (and "Sports Card Guy" and "Coin Dealer Guy" and "Model Train Guy" ) are stereotypes because those people really exist, and pull shady things because they know they're dealing with addicts. Microsoft is a multibillion dollar, multinational company. It's certainly possible to do business with them without dealing with criminals, at least in theory. Whatever your beliefs about Microsoft and Bill Gates, there's no such thing as being "convicted of being a monopolist"...and having a monopoly isn't a crime. It can be CONNECTED with crime, but having one, in and of itself, is not criminal. PGX is one guy: Daniel Patterson. Daniel Patterson IS PGX. So, when you're doing business with PGX, you're doing business with Daniel Patterson directly. PGX has demonstrably...meaning, it can be demonstrated...that they committed actual fraud against actual customers by colluding with people like Terrance Leder and "Christina's Collectibles" (Terrance's wife) to grade books that had been restored as not, among other things. The comics industry is FILLED with bad actors. Daniel Patterson/PGX is one of them. I choose not to do business with bad actors (and I don't mean of the Keanu Reeves variety.) I do not think others should be doing business with PGX. I can't stop anyone, and I wouldn't if I could. That's up to them. But, just as I won't do business with people like Richie Muchin, who lies to people about grades to get more money than he should for books (and LOTS of people praise him to the skies...proving that "glowing feedback" isn't worth much), I won't do business with people like PGX, and will continue to encourage others to do the same. There's been more than enough damage done to people by frauds and cheats in this industry. |
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| Post 194 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan I have never bought this argument. Are we to believe that CGC....a company who is small potatoes when it comes to their sister company, NGC...has a policy for "only so much coverage"? I doubt it. Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan A grading company IS NOT "adding value" to the item. They're not doing anything to the book itself. They're only giving an appraisal as to its condition, which the book is already in. Yes, I understand that the argument is made that "the case adds value"...but it's a specious argument. Without the book, the case is worthless, no matter what it says. Take the book out of the case, and it's back to being the same value it was before. The value "added" is an illusion, a perception of the market. That book was already worth that much in principle, before it ever saw the inside of a slab...it simply needed "official blessing" for the market to pony up the cash. "Value added" is another term for "cash grab." The "service expects to benefit more if the owner and item benefits more" is a function of greed. They do it because they can, not because it's right. They're not doing anything differently for a $200 book over a $200,000 book. They're not doing anything to EARN that "more benefit." If they want more, they should do more, and in this case, there's nothing more to do. You can't grade the book "extra well!" Diamond cutters, on the other hand, (and pressers for that matter) are DOING SOMETHING to the diamonds, something which cannot be done by just anyone, and which does, indeed, add substantial value to the item. Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan Yes. Same amount of pages, same amount of work? Yes. There's no reason to think otherwise. |
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| Post 195 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego That's ok, the last four didn't, either... |
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| Post 196 • IP flag post | ||
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Rafel private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown When I first learned about comic book grading, I thought "Why spend all that money on having it put in a plastic case? Once it's in plastic it can't be read or looked at except for the front and back covers." Then I saw auctions with graded books and graded books do demand more money then books of the same grade not slabbed. Also, a slabbed book has the added protection of being in plastic, it was professionally graded and in the same condition when it was slabbed. So, until it's removed it's locked in time. |
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| Post 197 • IP flag post | ||
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan Yes, and we WANT less effective, so that the comic gasses can escape. Barex also degrades much easier, it fails in comparison to PETG on both fronts. Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan H2O is water. H2O2 is Peroxide. Which would you rather drink? Would you compare the two as equals and a statement? All I did was add one molecule of oxygen. PET and PETG are vastly different compounds, PET being used for your soda pop. Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan Why? The more ventilation the better. While you cannot physically "breathe" if you wrap PETG around your head, it does allow airflow, and more so than the products used by CGC. It was actually something you said to me here that turned me on to the rabbit hole of research on newsprint’s need to breathe  I also know that If I didnt care about airflow at work, I would end up with piles of lawsuits from sick people as their walls would be filled with mold. The product(s) I use to seal homes do not allow me to breath through them, but I know that they do as my homes are mold-free, and when tested for air-changes my product passes. Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan Absolutely. If a book is stored with MCP inside a sealed slab, once that MCP is saturated it just sits there and rots the pages around it; no ventilation. Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan CBCS has publicly stated they dont use MCP because it damages books over time. Hence the choice of PETG (NOT PET) with open sides for added breathability. Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan MCP will damage a book once it is saturated. If CGC is still using it, that would mean we still need to re-encapsulate their slabs every 7 years, or now less because they are sealing the slab edges. This is really putting me off even more, I actually thought CGC was better than this. |
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| Post 198 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Rafel Yes, you'd have to be blind and stupid to not see that graded books sell for more money than their non-graded counterparts in similar (not the same; every book is unique) condition. However... The book isn't "worth more money" because it is graded. The book is the book. What the additional money (NOT "value" ) comes from is in the perception of the buyer(s). The book is the book; grading doesn't add anything (or, in theory, take anything away.) All grading does is confirm the condition of the book, by an opinion that is considered authoritative. If the slab actually added value, then the slab would have value on its own, apart from the book...and I don't see anyone paying a premium for empty slabs, even ones that once contained high dollar books (though that may eventually happen, crazy as it sounds.) It's the book that has ALL the value; the slab only gives people the confidence to pay the "higher" prices. After all...while this isn't talked about much, there are thousands, if not more, of examples of books where buyers paid more for it RAW than it was worth SLABBED. What happens then...? Did the slab do anything for the submitter? Would they be willing to crack it out and sell it raw to someone else? Of course. It happens all the time. Someone buys a book raw that they thought was X.X, it turns out to be Y.Y, and they say "well, shoot. It's not worth what I paid for it, but I think it's nicer than the grading company does, so I'll crack it and sell it raw." And that happens all the time. If the very act of slabbing itself "added value", that scenario would never happen. Everyone always talks about the "wins." Seldom do people consider the "losses", but they should, because it demonstrates the point: the value of the book (or lack thereof) is in the book, not the slab. I had a client who had a high value early Bronze book. It had moderate tanning on the inside and back covers, but structurally, it was stellar. It was a CGC 9.0. I saw potential in the book, so he gave it to me, I cracked it, pressed it, and it looked gorgeous. A structural 9.4 all day long. I figured with the tanning, it would get a 9.2, which was well worth it. It got graded a 7.5. And it got graded a 7.5, not because the book had "gotten more tan" while in the slab. The slab was stored properly, as anyone would a high value book. It's simply that CGC's standards had shifted in the couple of years since the book was graded, and they now hammer the holy hell out of tanning. Was the book now worth LESS? Well, according to the perception of the market, yes. No one would be paying that 9.0 price for it now, in its 7.5 slab, even though they would have been perfectly happy to pay that when it was still in the 9.0 slab. Which shows you that the SLAB doesn't add (or take away) anything. The book itself was in better condition than before...it looked better than the 9.0 it was previously. The book was gorgeous! Structurally a 9.4, and the tanning, while moderate, wasn't atypical for the book or the era, and would present no problem going forward with further proper storage. My customer asked me to complain, so I did, CGC re-evaluated the book, and decided it was an 8.0 (which further demonstrates that it is the BOOK, not the SLAB, that has all the value. What changed between 7.5 and 8.0? Not a thing. Exact same book, exact same condition...but the customer complained, so it became an 8.0, and was now...in the perception of the market..."worth more." Magic!) Obviously, the book was a 9.0 just weeks before, and anyone would have been fine with that...again, the value is in the perception of the buyer. The owner was annoyed, obviously, so I suggested he crack it, and sell it raw, including the original 9.0 label. He did, and because the book was SO beautiful, he got his 9.0 price for it...even though it was raw. And all perfectly legitimate, because the value of that book is IN THE BOOK...not the slab. The slab only makes people more comfortable paying what the market decides it wants to pay (the market being composed of hundreds of thousands of buyers, making purchases every day.) And once people remember that the value is in the BOOK...not the SLAB...they tend to become better buyers, learning to avoid problem books, and looking for those that are premium quality within their grades. And, as a result, the RAW market has improved substantially (except for ultra-high grade 1980-up books. It's either $150 for a slabbed 9.8, or $10 for it raw, with virtually no middle ground. That market, too, might catch up eventually.) Now, people are much more willing to pay a "close to GPA" price for a raw book, because they recognize that the value is in the BOOK...NOT the SLAB. |
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| Post 199 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Not to get too wordy on this (too late!), but back in the '00s, some gasped in horror when people bought slabs that they thought were undergraded, cracked them out, and listed them for sale as raw, with, of course, a higher price. "Unethical!!" they would scream. "You're trying to deceive customers!" they would angrily declare. "You ought to include the grade that CGC said it was!" They did that because they imagined the value of the book was in the LABEL...not the book itself. They were label slaves. They worshiped the grade on the label, as if THAT was what the book simply WAS, and the graders were holy men, sent from the heavens to bestow their blessings on these books. And that was total nonsense. The label is only an opinion. It is not a concrete, inviolable proclamation. It is an INFORMED opinion, of course, but it is still only an opinion...evidenced by the fact that that opinion can change, sometimes dramatically, from different graders on different days, or the same graders on different days, or even the same graders on the same day. The grade on the label doesn't make the book what it is. The BOOK is what it is, label or no. And it's OK to DISAGREE with the graders! (GASP!) Provided you are acting in good faith, and can make an informed case, you can even disagree about restoration that may or may not have been done to the book...and even the grading companies have not agreed on that, themselves (though, of course, 99% of the time, it's not in legitimate dispute.) Learning that very important lesson will free a lot of people from being label slaves. |
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown That is a very interesting concept. I believe that CBCS graders are currently much better than I at grading and restoration detection, and thus take their word as gospel, with very rare exception. The only way to "break the chains" of being a slave (lol), would be for to learn and experience enough for me to legitimately believe I can stand eye to eye with them on a grade opinion. It brings up another interesting thought as well. People pay massive premiums for 9.9 books. Quite a few have argued that given the standards, there should be a lot more of them. Thus, there are books out there graded 9.8 and 9.9 that are essentialy equal, and anyone paying for that 9.9 is a slave, given that they could find a 9.8 book of equal quality for a hell of a lot less money. The bottom line is that labels do add or subtract value, even if not deservedly so. In an online marketwhere one cannot hold the book to inspect it, more often than not we simply dont have any other option than to slave away. |
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| Post 201 • IP flag post | ||
 CBCS Pressing
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SteveRicketts private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer I can attest to the fact that there is indeed a standard for a 9.9 or 10. It's not in any way of equal quality to a 9.8. There is a difference that is visible 100% of the time if you know what you're looking at. 9.9 and 10 are not grades that are given out to books at random. If a book is 9.8, it is given that grade. If it is 9.9, it is given that grade. |
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @SteveRicketts I should've been more clear, the previous arguments (and my statement) were referring to CGC 9.8-9 books, not CBCS. You've explained to me in the past the (CBCS) difference, and I think it's legit  |
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| Post 203 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer Absolutely! That should be the goal of anyone who has more than a passing interest...and investment...in graded books. And, it's what the grading companies want, too. How so...? Because the grading companies work best with an educated and informed customer base. They really don't want people worshiping them...protest as they might...and bestowing upon them god-like powers of comic book grading. It puts pressure on them that they really don't want or need, and it creates wildly unrealistic expectations of perfection. It stifles them, and when a customer says "what?? 7.5??? Last month, you said this was an 8.5!! Are you THAT incompetent??? This is an OUTRAGE!!" (And yes, grading companies get these calls ALL...THE...TIME.) And THOSE kinds of reactions are what you get from stupid, pissed off, ignorant customers...and some have even threatened lawsuits. Now, I don't know about you, but even the THREAT of a lawsuit wastes valuable time and resources, resources that are far better spent elsewhere. And, after all, it's not the GRADING COMPANIES' fault that the market is ridiculous, and pays absurd premiums for tiny differences in conditions. An informed and educated customer base doesn't have these unrealistic expectations, and they are A LOT more forgiving and patient. They understand that it is an OPINION, and that opinions can change. As long as they are reasonably consistent, then their customer base is happy, and everyone does well. Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer Absolutely true, with the slight exception that people don't pay massive premiums for ALL 9.9s. However, the book is the book, whether it's graded 9.8 or 9.9. I don't have anywhere near enough experience with CBCS, but I do know, from long, bitter experience with CGC, and a basic understanding of statistics, that 9.9 and 10 grades are artificially held back, even if only subconsciously, in an effort to keep market credibility, long since a mere reflex at this point. "That's silly, DB. Lots of people who THINK they can grade, can't." True. However, that truth does not negate the fact that there are people out there who examine comics under magnification, and are so obsessive about these details, that they know the difference. There aren't many of them...but they do exist. I've gotten six 10s from CGC, and two 9.9s. I should have gotten twice that in 10s, and 20-30 9.9s (over submissions of 3,000-4,000 books, 75-80% of which have been 9.8s) over the years. Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer No. The labels do not add or subtract value. If that were true, the empty slabs would be "worth" that additional value...and, obviously, since nothing can be worth less than nothing (except theoretically), those empty slabs don't have negative value, either. The value that you believe is being added (or taken away) is only the perception of the market. The value is in the book...not the slab. Without the book, the slab has NO (or nominal) value. A 9.9 New Mutants #98 slab and label has no value without the book. Don't believe me...? Consider this: if one were to buy that New Mutants #98 9.9 that you linked in another thread...beauty, by the way...and showed it to one's friends, there would be the usual ooohs and ahhhhs. Then, crack it out of the slab. Would that empty slab and label have any value? No, of course not. Would the book ITSELF be "worth" a lot less...? Sure, because the perception has changed, rightly or wrongly. But...in theory, at least...that book could go in a NEW slab, end up with the same grade (although in practice, we know this isn't true...the book could have nothing happen to it, and 9,999 times out of 10,000, it would end up in a 9.8 slab), and VOILA! It's now "worth" that 9.9 price again. That's because the BOOK contains all the value, not the SLAB. I understand that it's a little hard to wrap one's head around, but that 9.9...or 10, or 7.5, or whatever...has no value, in and of itself. If something has no value in and of itself, it cannot ADD value, that it does not have, to something else. Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer That's not true, either. One assumes that, when one buys a slab online, they are going to, eventually, receive the book in hand and be able to inspect it. It is at that point that the ability to grade kicks in, if it exists. |
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Grading a book after purchase just plain sucks. Basically just telling yourself wether or not you got hosed. One of the many reasons I wont buy (or be a slave to lol) CGC graded books, especially not PGX |
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