Grading Companies3754
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
| So I should put you down as a "maybe"? | ||
| Post 151 • IP flag post | ||
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Gabriel85301 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by nikki666666 I SAW one called HALO? I think they are in Australia only though. |
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| Post 152 • IP flag post | ||
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conditionfreak private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I have 32 PGX books in my collection. 14 CBCS books, and about 230 or so CGC books. I have been slowly changing my PGX graded books over to CBCS books. I will not change the CGC books, as they are just fine like that. Do I regret having over 40 books sent to PGX for grading, back in PGX's earliest year? Yes. The slabs are real good and my books are well protected in them. But the resale value is smaller, and the confidence in their not having restoration is just not there. Luckily I have already switched over my most valuable books from PGX to CBCS, and the remaining 32 books in PGX slabs are not my more valuable ones. Although the ASM #2, the Lone Ranger #1 from 1948, and the Captain America #100 would hurt me if I found out they were restored. I will be changing them over to CBCS shortly. The rest will stay in the PGX slabs, or even sold raw. The ones I changed over to CBCS from PGX all checked out okay for no restoration by CBCS, and they were all silver age or bronze age keys. That pleased me a lot. But all but one dropped a half or full grade. But the PGX grading was "in the ballpark" on all the books, with the exception of one which dropped from 7.5 to 6.0 The price was right from PGX and the turn around times were great. But the confidence in what is between the slab parts is just not there. Now, if I was good at detecting resto and trimming on my own. The PGX slabs would be fine, until time to sell. The most expensive book I have ever sent to PGX for grading, was an Amazing Fantasy #15. They graded it as a TRIMMED (top and right edge) 4.5 It looked trimmed to me too, and I sold it on Ebay cheap. ($2575.00 if I remember correctly) I just don't keep restored books. Even the premiere book of my lifetime. |
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| Post 153 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by poka Where did I go....? Are you stalking me....? If so, would you mind putting the trash can on the curb when you're done...? I always forget to do that, and those guys come so early in the morning! |
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| Post 154 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by comic_book_man PGX has committed provable fraud. Not theory. Not hyperbole. Actual, demonstrable fraud. The issue is not that books in PGX slabs are the fault of the book. The issue is that no one who is concerned with honesty and fair play should submit to PGX. That they are still in business doesn't change that fact. There are lots of businesses that commit fraud that stay in business. The problem with books being in PGX slabs is that they create a false sense of security. PGX slabs are no better than Joe Blow's bag and board...but people think, because of the fancy case, that it IS better, and that's a serious problem. And, they're hesitant to open the slab and check the book themselves, as they (probably) would a bagged and boarded book. It's one thing to check a book in a slab and say "man, this book is overgraded!" It's another to check for restoration, because in the slab, you really can't anywhere near as easily. If people treated PGX slabs the same as they would a raw book, with all the inherent risks that that carries, it wouldn't be a problem. But they don't, so we have the problem I describe here. And...CGC isn't the foundation of comic collecting. Slabs account for perhaps 2-5% of the entire comic book market. There are only about 3.5 million comics in slabs. That's less than the print run of Superman #75 (1992.) There are hundreds of millions, if not billions, of comic books in existence, the vast majority of which will never see the inside of a slab. |
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| Post 155 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
I really don't think sending valuable comics to a dude's garage; who can't grade consistently, can't detect restoration, and has a history of dubious (if not outright fraudulent) activity, is really a legitimate reason for saving $3 to $7 per book. But that's just me.  |
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| Post 156 • IP flag post | ||
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poka private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown I rest my case |
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| Post 157 • IP flag post | ||
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AndyRexia private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer If you put said breathable plastic slab into a bag, Mylar for example, is it still breathing like it should? |
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| Post 158 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by poka Yes, but are you going to take my trash out...? It's the least you can do if you're gonna hang outside my windows at night...  |
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| Post 159 • IP flag post | ||
 Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Too many things by different people to respond to and I'm no good at the multiple quote thing, so I will just randomly address here.... A lot of us do think of purchasing PGX graded comics the same way we think of purchasing raw. I mentioned it before. Key is the seller has to take returns for any reason. "It doesn't look right" has to be reason enough. The idea that buying a PGX graded book supports criminals is logically flawed and morally dubious. Of all the reasons ever mentioned, this is the one I personally dismiss out of hand. The world's full of businesses that have been actually CONVICTED of crimes (rather than caught but never prosecuted) that people do business with all the time. Right now how are boardies reading and responding to this thread? Microsoft based PC? A convicted monopolist, fined billions here in the USA and European Union. Apple (phone or computer) The finest products child laborers in China can manufacture. Just Google "Foxconn labor abuse" - the company Apple has manufacture most of their stuff. Employees are literally jumping off the roofs and setting themselves on fire on the factor floor from abusive labor practices. Your clothes and shoes are most likely made in sweat shops overseas. Do you eat meat? Big Ag is cruel in how farm animals are processed. Hell probably looks like a cattle feed lot. So no, not buying into the moral argument. The idea that PETG is "breathable" is something of an overstatement. PETG is somewhat less effective as a gas barrier than Barex - the plastic CGC used to use. But only somewhat. PETG and near same PET is the plastic they use to bottle you soda pop. If it wasn't an effective good gas barrier, your Diet Coke would be flat by the time you open it. Barex meanwhile - being better still - was widely used to to package medicines that would degrade exposed to the atmosphere. The entire....debate about the different plastics and how much they might breathe (both breathe almost not at all) really misses the point of why it matters. CGC has always used one or two sheets micro chamber paper (MCP) in their books. The purpose of which was to absorb chemical by-products of newsprint as it breaks down. Newsprint breaks down slowly because of impurities in the paper. It's why newsprint was/is cheap. But it was always debatable that MCP really did much of anything. Storage conditions matter far more regarding the life of newsprint. If you look at places like the Library of Congress or Northeast Document Conservation Center they don't talk about ever using MCP to preserve the life of paper. They only use MCP as something to remove odors from paper books/documents. CBCS says they don't use MCP because their inner holder made of PETG is NOT as strong a gas barrier as Barex. BUT MCP also costs money, so it saves CBCS a few coins not using it. And none of this really matters anymore. Barex is no longer being made. All the grading companies have had to change to some other material. Everyone is using some variation of polyester film, because it's cheap and safe. CGC still uses MCP on older books, but has quit on moderns because the paper quality is now much better. It's rare to see a new book on newsprint. |
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| Post 160 • IP flag post | ||
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Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan I'm not quite sure if it's logically flawed. You don't explain how. In any event, my position on this is to not support PGX by not sending them books to grade. If a book is in a PGX slab, that's not the book's fault: it's the submitter's. I think your Microsoft claim of "monopolist" is a bit dubious. Not all of man's laws are just or legitimate. I wouldn't turn myself over to the authority of the EU if I had a choice. After all: speaking uncomfortable truths is a hate crime in much of the EU. So, not everyone convicted of a crime has actually committed one, and not everyone who has committed one is convicted. Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan My house is often a sweat shop. It gets hot during the summer, and that AC is expensive! Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan True, which is why one should eat organic whenever and wherever possible, if only for humane animal production. By the way...I think the word you're looking for is "breathe"..."breath" is pronounced differently, and if one is reading in their head, it's a bit jarring to come full stop to "breath" (pronounced "breh-th", with a hard "th" sound, as in "tooth" ), when the word should be "breathe" (pronounced "bree-the", with a soft "th" sound, as in "seethe" )...something to note if you're interested. |
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| Post 161 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Your point is a good one. But then it is just you...  I clean and press books as retail service and I send books to all three grading companies. CGC is number 1, CBCS number 2 and a few clients use PGX. The ones that use PGX do so not because they are passing off restored books (or if they are I'm not catching it  ) They are doing so because saving the money and getting them back quicker matters more. And also - even if they aren't sending in expensive books - they appreciate the cost having nothing to do with the value of the books. PGX will also grade and manage to fit into a standard comic holder the first four issues of TMNT. CGC uses a magazine holder and CBCS won't grade them at all. I personally understand the entire "value added" pricing model. But some people deeply resent being charged more for more expensive books. So for a few people - not criminal people - PGX makes sense to them. Even PGX's fiercest critics have to acknowledge their is nothing wrong with their slab and the new label does look nice and modern. |
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| Post 162 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Thanks for the correction on breath versus breathe. Some have suggested simply buying PGX graded books supports a criminal enterprise. You have clarified your position and it's not the same as the position I was speaking to. Microsoft is a convicted monopolist both in the USA and EU. In the USA, just Google United States V Microsoft Corp. The trial judge's initial decision was to break up Microsoft, but eventually the DOJ and Microsoft agreed to penalties and changes in behavior. Your wife and your comic books would appreciate your keeping the house cool in the summer |
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| Post 163 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan Again, though...there's a difference between sending books into PGX to be graded, and buying a Microsoft product. First, other than the whackos at the EU, I don't think "monopolist" is actually a crime. It's the government's job (one of its actual limited roles) to prevent monopolies, but it's not a crime to make one. Second, being a "monopolist" (convicted or otherwise) is not the same thing as committing fraud with the only product and service you provide. That said, there is something slightly obnoxious about charging a different price for the same service, based on the perception of the value of the item. Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan Well, sure, and OJ is a Hall of Fame football player. It's true...but I wouldn't want him dating my mom, if you know what I mean.... |
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| Post 164 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by IronMan No, there's no such crime in the US of "monopolist." The lawsuit to which you refer is a CIVIL matter, not a CRIMINAL one. Also, the US gov't settled with Microsoft on appeal. That means Microsoft didn't lose the case; it was settled. |
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| Post 165 • IP flag post | ||
 Please continue to ignore anything I post.
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southerncross private msg quote post Address this user | |
| grading companies. Honesty,consistent grading, professional attitude and a good clean product at then end is all that's required | ||
| Post 166 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown It was an antitrust case. I don't think labeling the Sherman Act, the Clayton act and the Federal Trade commissions as simple civil law is fair. The laws are designed to prevent cartels and collusion. Mostly enforced by Federal and state governments. However, since private individuals can seek enforcement of the laws, it probably is correct to refer to it as civil. The bottom line is Microsoft had to pay billions for activities that were illegal under US law. Call that what you will. Doesn't make it OK. Meanwhile - to my knowledge and I've looked into more than most - PGX has never been convicted of any crimes nor even lost a civil lawsuit. I think evidence exists of some legally questionable situations. But that would be an opinion. It's not an opinion that Microsoft broke the law in the US and paid big penalties, promised to quit using their monopoly of the operating system software environment to run competitors in areas where they did not have a monopoly (office suites, internet browsers, disk compression software, etc... ) out of business. They also settled for billions with some of these companies, like IBM, Netscape, Stacker, Sun... |
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| Post 167 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| There are many activities illegal under US law that are not actually crimes. Some of the many reasons I'm a libertarian. | ||
| Post 168 • IP flag post | ||
 I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
| It's illegal, but it's not a crime? | ||
| Post 169 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Let's get back on topic. No politics before bed time. |
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| Post 170 • IP flag post | ||
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comic_book_man private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Many good points. I just meant in the context of comic book grading/encapsulation(where the money is), for high grade, first appearance, key issues, etc. Obviously the vast majority of comics are in garage sale 25 cent bins, that's a given - or maybe a few bucks for a modern reader of a popular issue on release. The more accurate statistic to look at would be how many slab-worthy-comics are actually slabbed(worth protecting, worth money, etc). To that I would imagine most are, and if they are not they are either unmanaged in a storage locker, a closet, a warehouse, a garage, or a basement, etc. I don't remember all the accusations against PGX over the years, but one could also deduct that unless they were sued and lost under those original accusations, does the proof hold up?(like Bill Cosby - his reputation is already being ruined without result like PGX) Who are these accusers? Is their evidence digital? Could it have been manipulated? Maybe they were a disgruntled employee, or got a grade they didn't like? etc. I mean even now I read online that CCS/CGC is being sued by a restoration company for deliberately ruining their reputation by giving their comics bad grades, and CCS bad mouthing the restoration companies customers when comics arrived for pressing and trying to convert them over to CCS. To clarify, I don't know all the details so this is just my own conclusion from what I read about it - forgive me if I butchered the details or missed something. That seems a little shady, as converting customers over would drive your profits up, and giving lower grades intentionally to that restoration company would boost your partner companies legitimacy. But, like I said in my previous post we can't bad mouth CGC because they are the base by which we stand in the graded comic world. It's like when you say "The Michael Jordan of..." When you ask someone about grading, "are you going to get that CGC'd?" Even if you are an educated comic collector and say "graded" to be technical - that just further proves that saying CBCS'd or PGX'd have no legitimacy as brands...ie they are second tier(not the base of greatness, like Michael Jordan or CGC is). PGX is in the dog house because they got caught and didn't defend themselves, but they are run out of a basement right? They don't have big lawyers like CGC does to fight off lawsuits and accusations or even the money to have a professional forum moderator. Sure they can defend themselves in a public setting or online forum, but it's to late now. I think most of the PGX responses I read from Daniel were "if you have questions about accusations against PGX, come talk to me at the Comic Con this weekend", which in his defense just means he doesn't want to waste time BSing online even if no matter what he says we still won't believe him(Bill Cosby "the raper" comes to mind, even if he's innocent). I mean every time I look at Bill Cosby on TV now I just think "he's a raper"...but I love Bill Cosby, so why am I thinking this?! I'm brainwashed now by reputational deconstruction from overly passionate critics that get my attention by yelling the loudest. I guess my last point about PGX is that no matter if they did everything right now, they can't recover because the accusations have been so repetitive of Leder, Restoration Detection, etc. that no one can see past that. Their prices are so low that they don't have the time or the money to deal with this stuff, that's what attracts us to them but also pushes us away. (Like Adamantium zombies vs Magneto) I believe if you dig deeper into the posted results of "missed restoration" it showed that it was on a few low-mid grade comics, and not high-grade comics which generally only varied by a single grade or two between all 3 companies. I think @conditionfreak can attest to this with his recent submissions? Quote: Originally Posted by IronMan Agreed. Their turn-times and prices are still the lowest too, and every time you call them they pick up on the phone so that's appealing to new "untainted by reputation" customers. It's usually weeks before I hear back from CBCS/CGC (maybe I'm just the unlucky one!) - and the website data is always wrong. But I still love them both unconditionally lol.  |
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| Post 171 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| One of the reasons for the higher charges for more valuable books is insurance liability while those books are in the care of CBCS or CGC. PGX operates out of a garage, so they probably don't care about such things like security and liability. | ||
| Post 172 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego The fact PGX likely operates out of a garage doesn't concern me. I run my business out of the upstairs of my house. I also have insurance on other people's books while in my possession. If the garage is large enough, if it's climate controlled. I also know there is more than one person working there because I've talked to several different people. |
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| Post 173 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego You started it... Darn libertarians... |
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| Post 174 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| There is nothing attractive about PGX to me. If I used PGX I would save $3 per comic. But saving $3 is not worth giving up the peace of mind I get with CBCS. With CBCS my comics are inside a vault in a large building dedicated to this service. At PGX they are inside a house in the middle of a suburban neighborhood (I've seen the satellite view of their real address, this is confirmed). Add onto that zero confidence in their detection of restoration (more confirmed facts, not speculation). Add onto that the total secrecy of who their "experts." If someone adds all those things together , information that is readily available to anyone willing to spend less than an hour to research, and still chooses to give business to PGX to save $3 to $7 bucks per book. Well, imo, these someones are making very poor decisions. | ||
| Post 175 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego That is ONE small reason. Their policy is written for X amount. Like mine. I would have to call and get a temporary bump if I had big enough or enough books. I pressed two AF 15's this week. It didn't cause me to be over my policy limit. Grading services, pressing services and other business endeavors (say diamond cutters) work on a value added basis. The item and it's owner benefit from an increase in value. Sometimes a very substantial increase in value. The service expects to benefit more if the owner and item benefits more. Does anyone really believe that book worth $200,000 should be graded for the same price as one that worth $200? |
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| Post 176 • IP flag post | ||
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comic_book_man private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego LOL! so true. but hey, isn't insurance just for suckers anyway? I mean, insurance companies make huge profits off of us because a high-cost claim rarely needs to be covered. Like the odds of CBCS burning to the ground without time to relocate the books I'd say are at least 10,000,000:1 or greater...they have so many employees, alarm systems(motion,smoke,gas, etc), a local fire department, the list goes on...that the only way it would burn down would be due to an act of nature that even furthers the rarity of the event taking place. So why should I pay for that as the customer? I shouldn't. But we do. Insurance is appealing, that's why so many of those companies are making bank off our bad bets. I never feel like "we have insurance" should be a reason to use a company other than like a "professional assurance". They could skip the insurance and with the additional profit they make use that to provide their own assurances to us if they "lost a book" or "accidentally damaged it". |
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| Post 177 • IP flag post | ||
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Ima gonna steal this and look for some occasion to use it!
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IronMan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego I personally agree. But some people do not. The savings and TAT are of primary importance to them. I'd also point out that for most submissions the savings might be $3-$7. But if the book is worth $10,000, the difference in grading costs is over $200. It's $40 tops with PGX. Franklin called it penny wise and pound foolish. But a libertarian should appreciate people making their own decisions on how and with whom they spend their money. |
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| Post 178 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @comic_book_man They are in Hurricane Alley, so...yeah, let's keep the insurance. |
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| Post 179 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| If you own a $10,000 book and you are pinching pennies on the grading instead of going to the place with the best reputation you don't deserve to own a $10,000 book. imo Honestly, that's just sad. |
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| Post 180 • IP flag post | ||
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