Grading Companies3754

Originally Posted by Odvar
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Originally Posted by DocBrown
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Originally Posted by Odvar
@DocBrown you should read and learn before making such accusations.

Which accusations would that be...?

You accused poor ole mattness of defending PGX. He wasn't. He just wanted some clarity. Besides I was just messing you in my previous comment.

Originally Posted by JWKyle
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Originally Posted by DarthLego
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Originally Posted by shrewbeer
If CGC really is sealing their slabs, that's yet another reason for me not to buy them. No ventilation means a nice white page book will be off-white much quicker

Agree. I read something about their new plastic is supposed to be more breathable. Breathable plastic? What sorcery is this?

So magic plastic

Originally Posted by shrewbeer
I think mattness was pretty clear that he was not informed, and actually "wished" to be informed, to which the forum collectively obliged. It was a good post.

Originally Posted by DocBrown
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Originally Posted by shrewbeer
I think mattness was pretty clear that he was not informed, and actually "wished" to be informed, to which the forum collectively obliged. It was a good post.

Really...? Huh. Maybe it's just me.

Let's look at the post, and see if we can't develop some mutual understanding:

"I have always heard to stay away from PGX but no-one seems to know why. "

" I can see how people get tired of hearing bad things about PGX yet no-one has any solid reason to dismiss them."

"that's what everybody says but no-one seems to know why"

Now, let's consider the repetition of the phrase "no one." No one seems to know why, no one has any solid reason to dismiss them.

That's pretty declarative language. Declarative language...even couched in the form of "questions"...is what people use who have already arrived at a conclusion. "This is such and such. Don't you agree...?" looks like a question, but it's really not. It's a challenge. That's the language that mattness used.

Now, we know that, before the post was even conceived, that not only was "no one seems to know why" not true, but it had already been extensively documented going back over a decade.

Remember: in language, there are clues, usually in the form of subtext, that give a hint as to what someone really means and where they are coming from. It is this that allows us to discern, for example, sarcasm and irony in the written word.

Originally Posted by mattness
Good Lord DocBrown's back from vacation.

"no-one" was used to represent any and all comic book collectors that I have spoken with regarding slabbing, CGC, PGX and CBCS. I asked the question out of curiosity. There was no secret agenda hidden in my words. No evil plan behind the curtain. It was just an honest question that I brought to the board. I am very grateful that people were kind enough to supply documented proof so that I could learn something new. With that new found knowledge, I can pass it along to other fellow collectors who like me, haven't been informed about PGX practices.

Thanks again to everyone that makes this board such an honest and safe place to be a part of

Originally Posted by conditionfreak
You can decide from the word of others who have no reason to lead you astray. Or you can put your hand on a hot stove and find out for yourself if it hurts.

Freedom, gotta love it.

There is no reason that PGX, CGC or even CBCS can not grade a book accurately, because there is no accurate scientific method of doing so. Grading is the opinion of a single person or a small group of people who experience.

But checking for trimming and restoration is based on science. That is where PGX loses me most. Plus, I just don't trust them to not do shenanigans for profit or favor. Too much to go into the evidence of that right here. But it is out there on the web, if you care to look for it. Maybe try searching "pgx scandal". That would be a good starting point.

Originally Posted by IronMan


As for PGX, I will simply say that they are no where near as good as they should be - and no where near as bad as some make them out to be. I collect comic books - not plastic holders from a particular grading company. As such, I've purchased - and will continue to purchase - PGX books that are attractively priced, something I want and the seller takes returns (assuming I did not purchase in person)

CGC has a few scandals of it's own. The trimming scandal, books that have gone from blue to purple and purple to blue.

Originally Posted by DocBrown
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Originally Posted by IronMan


As for PGX, I will simply say that they are no where near as good as they should be - and no where near as bad as some make them out to be. I collect comic books - not plastic holders from a particular grading company. As such, I've purchased - and will continue to purchase - PGX books that are attractively priced, something I want and the seller takes returns (assuming I did not purchase in person)

CGC has a few scandals of it's own. The trimming scandal, books that have gone from blue to purple and purple to blue.

There is a critical and substantial difference between these two situations that renders this comparison unworkable. That difference is that PGX has actively colluded with others to defraud buyers of their products. They have demonstrably given out inflated grades to "valued customers", but worse, have allowed submitters (Terrance Leder being only one) to resume submission, after being caught trimming and otherwise restoring books, and then grading them as unrestored.

PGX is every bit as bad as they are made out to be, and almost certainly worse.

The CGC trimming scandal wasn't CGC colluding with Ewert to pass off books as untrimmed, like PGX was colluding with Leder to pass off books as untrimmed. And Ewert was (is...?) an expert trimmer, micro-trimming so well that very few were able to detect it. Leder just chopped up books.

The two aren't comparable. There's a substantial difference between missing restoration and conspiracy to commit fraud.

Originally Posted by comic_book_man
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Originally Posted by DocBrown
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Originally Posted by IronMan


As for PGX, I will simply say that they are no where near as good as they should be - and no where near as bad as some make them out to be. I collect comic books - not plastic holders from a particular grading company. As such, I've purchased - and will continue to purchase - PGX books that are attractively priced, something I want and the seller takes returns (assuming I did not purchase in person)

CGC has a few scandals of it's own. The trimming scandal, books that have gone from blue to purple and purple to blue.

There is a critical and substantial difference between these two situations that renders this comparison unworkable. That difference is that PGX has actively colluded with others to defraud buyers of their products. They have demonstrably given out inflated grades to "valued customers", but worse, have allowed submitters (Terrance Leder being only one) to resume submission, after being caught trimming and otherwise restoring books, and then grading them as unrestored.

PGX is every bit as bad as they are made out to be, and almost certainly worse.

The CGC trimming scandal wasn't CGC colluding with Ewert to pass off books as untrimmed, like PGX was colluding with Leder to pass off books as untrimmed. And Ewert was (is...?) an expert trimmer, micro-trimming so well that very few were able to detect it. Leder just chopped up books.

The two aren't comparable. There's a substantial difference between missing restoration and conspiracy to commit fraud.

Well said man, but same for @IronMan , you both speak truth.
We can all agree that CGC is the base of all things comics, and everyone else is a copycat...CBCS included. Although CBCS is really growing to be CGC 2.0, the REASON it's developing that way is because it's adapting to the NEEDS of the people. Now in that same frame of mind, it can be said that PGX is meeting the needs of the people for cost. Vault and these other companies missed the bandwagon and as much as ANYONE hates to admit, it's CGC, CBCS, and PGX. PGX will continue to be relevant as long as CBCS and CGC continue to be premium brands. If CBCS could find a way to reduce their turn-time, and reduce their costs further, PGX would just about go under. The only problem is that CBCS can't really do that because it would be buying into it's own devaluation and move further and further away from CGC customer appeal(no longer premium). But, we also can't devalue CGC because it's the foundation of comic collecting, to devalue CGC is to destroy everything the community has built in making comic collecting more of an Art Form than just books. We NEED CGC, and we NEED something that's in between a PGX and a CBCS. Both deliver on different levels, regardless of their reputations. Car salesmen are the worst, but I still buy from them when I need a car. Some of them are crooks. Same goes for PGX. Only if by proven in a court of law can we kill PGX(but they aren't a registered company anymore)...until then, it's all based on opinions/experience of random people on the internet - trust or don't trust it's up to you). If CBCS wants to step in and replace PGX as the faster/cheaper alternative to CGC, they could but then they gotta cut labor and services and their whole philosophy of this new generation of grading goes out the window.

I'm not trying to say PGX is in the same conversation as CBCS/CGC...all I'm saying is that they've been around for 15 years, and regardless of reputation(which is HUGELY important, I'm not saying that it's not)...they put comic books inside of graded cases for FAST & CHEAP. That's appealing to many. You can't argue that. They won't go away, as they haven't until this point, until someone fills that role and kills their demand. If you take out the superficial(money), then the 3 companies stand closer together. When money is involved, the story changes...especially for PGX who has been accused of many things, I imagine some true, some false. Each person is the judge and jury against PGX, and each person has their own views as seen here in this forum. In truth I think we all deep down probably WANT PGX to make things right, clean up their act, etc because they are just so affordable...but we also don't want to stand beside accused criminals...so how can we stand beside them to do the right thing going forward? We can't. Their reputation will never improve sadly, even if they have been trying to make it right since the Leder guy. So, the community buys/sells/trades PGX on hope for now.

My personal view is that I won't condemn a beautiful/relevant book just because it's in a PGX case, I may not pay the full value, but I won't condemn it. It's not the books fault, why am I punishing it and saying it's trash? Shame. Shame. Shame.
But, everyone has their own opinions and I respect them all - that's the beauty of a great forum such as the one CBCS has provided here!

LOL I'm a fast and lengthy typer, and I'm still new to this forum, so I am sorry for my text downloads...I don't have many other "comic friends" to talk to.

Uh oh...comic_book_man is typing again, QUICK EVERYONE AFK!!