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Jim Starlin refuses to work with CGC2834

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Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I never got an answer to this: Does CBCS allow books to be dropped off and signed without a witness actually seeing them signed?
	8 years ago	Post 176 • IP flag post

Collector 2.13K	2.13K ZosoRocks private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111 I know what I'd do. I'd charge for autographs with witness and provide free for all others; just like Starlin. I despise what's happened to this industry and I'll revolt in the same way. My perogative People have been flipping signed books for decades...long before slabbing existed. I agree DocB....BUT.....signatures started to be forged for profit and that caused the intro to Certification, which led to authentication, which led to witnessed authenticated. It is an evolution that was bound to happen as our community grew. I just wish they would do this forvinyl records. Anyone want to embark on a new grading company with me?? :o) You can say that you heard it here first!!!
	8 years ago	Post 177 • IP flag post

If I could, I would. I swear. 54.24K	54.24K DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 11
	The single greatest contributor to the rise of graded book services was the necessity to counteract all the old school dealers that sold overgraded books with undisclosed restoration.
	8 years ago	Post 178 • IP flag post

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@DocBrown I'm about to ruin a lot of your misconceptions about business in a capitalist society. 1. Major companies like Coca Cola, Sony, Moen, Apple, pick an industry and pick any major manufacturer, often dictate to retailers how much they can sell their merchandise - thus dictating their profit margins. It's no coincidence that AT&The, Verizon or Sprint all sell the new Apple Phone within its first three to six months of release for the same price - Apple dictates to them what they can sell it for. Want a new PS5 when it hits the market? Doesn't matter what retailer you buy it from, they all charge the same price for gaming systems with the same specs. If the retailer raises or cuts their price, Sony can, and often has, enforce penalties to the retailer. 2. Companies like Home Depot do have two tier pricing based on what you do with an item after it's purchased. Not everyone buys the same 2x4 for the same price. Major contractors pay more based on the fact that they are going to turn around and sell it for a profit. Ironically, it actually costs less for Home Depot to sell to these contractors. Contractors can pay upwards of 25 cents more per 2x4 than you will. It doesn't sound like a lot until you see how many 2x4s are used in a single house, then multiply that number by the number of houses in a new subdivision. Average house uses about 2000 2x4s which means the builder is paying $500 more per house - and that's just the 2x4s. Think about how much goes into a house - drywall, insulation, plywood, tyvek, shingles, roofing paper, tile, paint, faucets, toilets, bathtubs, cabinets and that's just basics. This price is often paid because it's convenient to the builder since it's delivered directly to their site and bypasses the need to visit the store, but it's not cost effective for the builder. 3. Resalr price is calculated into many durable goods, thus ensuring that manufacturers get their cut of your resale profits, regardless if you sell it or keep it for life. They actually have an entire field of economics dedicated to studying this very thing. Many economists make their living doing studies to determine the maximum amount a company can add to their price to recoup the resale value and still maintain competitive. Now I know you'll complain, and others will claim it's communism, but this is in fact basic business models where people enter into these agreements under their own freewill. People charge these prices because people will pay these prices. That's the only "why" there is. If you don't like the fact Stan Lee charges $100 for his signature, or believe it doesn't add that value, then don't pay it. You can ask "why" all you want, but no one owes anyone an explanation as to what the answer to "why" is.
	8 years ago	Post 179 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 6
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111 I know what I'd do. I'd charge for autographs with witness and provide free for all others; just like Starlin. I despise what's happened to this industry and I'll revolt in the same way. My perogative People have been flipping signed books for decades...long before slabbing existed. CGC Sells Fear like any other corporation seeking monopoly which has taken in well over $150 Million since opening its doors. "Fear" of signature "fraud" is merely a newest propaganda wrinkle pounded out by those who seek to profit from Fear. Back in 1968 I first began speculating in "new" comics on a larger scale then I had when I began purchasing 200 of each of the Marvel expansion issues like Shield 1, Doctor Strange 169, SM 1. Hulk 102, CA 100, IM #1, plus Ditko DC entry like the Creeper and H&D Showcase issues, plus their #1 issues soon thereafter, etc etc. all at cover price from Fremont News & Travel who ordered them "extra" for me from Omaha News with instructions of no "tops & bottoms" of the 50 ish wire wrapped bundles. I began doubling my money at a quarter each at shows and thru RBCC adverts, etc. I soon discovered I could quad my Iron Man #1 "investments" to 50 cents each. Adams, Ditko, Kirby, Smith, Rogers, Starlin, Wrightson - I ordered mainly off of creator art as people were collecting that way then. So X 56-65 ordered a pile, GL/GA 76 onwards likewise about 100 of each. 85 & 86 the numbers went much higher By 1970 I pre-ordered and bought 600 Conan #1 at 20 cents each. All of $120. In six months was getting a buck each. We used have a term called "regional scarcity" which I will explain in more detail down the road. It deals with the concept of "affidavit return fraud" once the ID distributors went on an "honor" system regarding returns. This is WHY books like Adams GL/GA, his X run, Kirby's New Gods and Forever People, Wrightson's Swamp Thing supposedly were not "selling" well. In reality they were. Jim Starlin's Warlock 9 thru 15 were also on the "hot" lists. By the late 70s when Clairmont, Byrne & Austin began X-Men 108 orders kept being doubled till by #114 was pre-ordering 10,000 per issue thru till after Byrne left with #143. After a steady downward trend thru the 70s Super Heroes began to resurge. In a year of holding began to get ten bucks for X-Men issues in the teens, and it just kept going up and up. By the early 80s a title such as GI Joe #1 since Marvel made that one issue returnable at the time I pre-ordered 35,000 copies. The "key" became #2 which I pre-ordered 17,000 copies. Since #2 was ordered before #1 got to the stores most other dealers went light. I cleaned up on #2 as it was soon being bandied about upwards of $50 a copy back then. No one had it. I did not tell any one how many I had. I was trading these new "hot" comics for Golden Age, etc. which is how I ended up with more than 400 Church copies directly from Chuck amongst many others back in the day. The more publicity, the more others tried jumping in on such a band wagon. This is in part what my book Comic Book Store Wars is about. What exactly were the "origins" of what we came to call the Direct Market coupled with the rise of the comic book store phenom. Speculating was always hit or miss. One had to do a lot of what back then by the mid 70s I called "market research" others would call "reading" comics. One studied the comics to figure out what others would and/or might like to acquire Others were like sheep. Jim Starlin has made a line in the sand - it seems to me - and I might easily be wrong, but his view as I interpret is asking comics people to stop being sheep. The slab Sig Fad will crash and burn. One can see such phenom before it happens. Are we there yet?
	8 years ago	Post 180 • IP flag post

I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! 20.04K	20.04K Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	@BLBcomics spot on again... as always. "Fear" is a great adjective to describe
	8 years ago	Post 181 • IP flag post

Collector 1.86K	1.86K jrs private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 5
	@BLBcomics, I enjoy reading your posts. Always insightful.
	8 years ago	Post 182 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	"Forging" of Signatures was not a very large problem. Those who say so probably easily speak like Trump that 3 to 5 million undocumented aliens voted in the USA which is also utter BS. ANY ONE can be a "Restoration Expert" simply by buying a Black Lite bulb. Turn off lights, turn on B-Lite, most anything not printed on page just jumps out at you. "Pressing" of books to manufacture a higher grade to the mythical 9.8 is a relatively new Fad which will also undermine the foundation of a solid comics biz though done correctly is basicly undetectable. As Steve Borock voiced to me not that long ago, "It wasn't supposed to get like this" which one is free to interpret how one wants to. Me, I applaud CBCS starting up as it has knocked CGC off its monopoly train track it was arrogantly thinking it had become It still is by trying now to get other companies which do similar aspects of this thin sliver of the collecting world excluded from say like the Reed shows which is going to come back and bite some in the butt It was the dismissive arrogance of CGC peoples which Jim Starlin has voiced his displeasure with having very little to do with his missing out on ten bucks.
	8 years ago	Post 183 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
@DocBrown

I'm about to ruin a lot of your misconceptions about business in a capitalist society.

I look forward to having any genuine misconceptions I may have ruined. Misconceptions are bad for everyone, and carrying them around does damage, sometimes great damage.

However, in this case, I suspect that won't be true. For someone who claims to have a PhD in Econ, your theories and statements are substantially out of touch with reality. I suspect that's because, even though you run a business (I assume), you've not yet had the brainwashing from think-tank, lack-of-real-world-experience professors scrubbed out of you yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
1. Major companies like Coca Cola, Sony, Moen, Apple, pick an industry and pick any major manufacturer, often dictate to retailers how much they can sell their merchandise - thus dictating their profit margins.

It's no coincidence that AT&The, Verizon or Sprint all sell the new Apple Phone within its first three to six months of release for the same price - Apple dictates to them what they can sell it for.

Want a new PS5 when it hits the market? Doesn't matter what retailer you buy it from, they all charge the same price for gaming systems with the same specs.

Indeed. Price fixing and monopolies have existed for centuries, if not millennia.

However...let's highlight one of the statements that is an odd contrast to someone with a PhD in Econ:

"..thus dictating their profit margins."

This statement would be true, IF the aforementioned companies had the exact same expenses as each other. They do not. While it is true that Apple sells the PS5 for X, and demands that retailer's A, B, & C sell it to the public for X + Y, it is the efficiency of how a retailers uses Y that determines the actual "profit margin" of any of those retailers.

After all...as a PhD in Econ, surely you know that Y is not the actual "profit margin" of the PS5. It's Y - expenses. Those expenses include labor, overhead, taxes, insurance, etc.

And none of those retailers, nor any retailer I'm aware of, only sells a single product from a single company. They are diversified, and sell a broad range of goods and services, to maximize their revenue flow.

So, while Apple dictates both the wholesale AND retail price of the PS5, that doesn't mean that the "in between" is used with equal efficiency by all retailers involved.

Which you knew.

Regardless, no misconceptions ruined yet...onward!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
If the retailer raises or cuts their price, Sony can, and often has, enforce penalties to the retailer.

A PhD in Econ, maybe...a PhD in English grammar, not so much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
2. Companies like Home Depot do have two tier pricing based on what you do with an item after it's purchased.

Not everyone buys the same 2x4 for the same price. Major contractors pay more based on the fact that they are going to turn around and sell it for a profit. Ironically, it actually costs less for Home Depot to sell to these contractors. Contractors can pay upwards of 25 cents more per 2x4 than you will. It doesn't sound like a lot until you see how many 2x4s are used in a single house, then multiply that number by the number of houses in a new subdivision. Average house uses about 2000 2x4s which means the builder is paying $500 more per house - and that's just the 2x4s. Think about how much goes into a house - drywall, insulation, plywood, tyvek, shingles, roofing paper, tile, paint, faucets, toilets, bathtubs, cabinets and that's just basics.

This price is often paid because it's convenient to the builder since it's delivered directly to their site and bypasses the need to visit the store, but it's not cost effective for the builder.

No.

Having worked in the retail construction business for several years...our main client was Federated Dept. Stores, which owns Macy*s, Bloomingdales, etc...I can tell you unequivocally that that is not true. Contractors don't "pay more" than the average Joe off the street. They pay less, because they're buying in quantity.

If you believe it is, you're going to have to cite some hard evidence of this.

Still...no misconceptions ruined...maybe the third one will do it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
3. Resalr price is calculated into many durable goods, thus ensuring that manufacturers get their cut of your resale profits, regardless if you sell it or keep it for life.

Not in dispute.

The price at checkout is still the same for everyone.

Not sure why you don't understand this. I've explained it many, many times. The issue is the price at checkout...that is, the price paid at the point of purchase. If the "cut of the profit" is built in to the price of the item, then that's not analogous to this situation, and...it's really rather meaningless. "We'd normally price this item at $4.58, but since we know a certain portion of these are going to be resold, we'll charge $5.23 to cover that."

That's just philosophical double-speak. The price is what it is, regardless of the retailer's justifications for doing so. Either the buyer will pay it, or he won't.

The pertinent detail is this: the price is what it is, and is not raised at the point of purchase for anyone, based on what they intend to do with the item.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
They actually have an entire field of economics dedicated to studying this very thing. Many economists make their living doing studies to determine the maximum amount a company can add to their price to recoup the resale value and still maintain competitive.

Yes. It's called "retail market and pricing analysis."

Still not relevant to this issue, however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
Now I know you'll complain, and others will claim it's communism, but this is in fact basic business models where people enter into these agreements under their own freewill.

No complaints from me. You haven't described anything that is controversial...well, aside from your "contractors pay MORE" comment, which I whole-heartedly dispute...and certainly haven't ruined any misconceptions you think I may have had.

However, you also haven't described anything even remotely similar to the situation that is being discussed here, so there's that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
People charge these prices because people will pay these prices. That's the only "why" there is.

Your school wasn't very big on cost-benefit analysis, huh...?

In any event...again, that's not the issue at stake here, and I don't think you really understand it, so let me explain again, in case you don't:

Creators are charging a different price...that is, a HIGHER price...for their signatures to customers if the creator knows, or suspects, that the item being signed is going to be slabbed.

They do this because they (almost entirely erroneously) believe that everyone slabbing their signed books is doing so because they are "making a profit", and they believe they "deserve a cut of that profit."

This is inaccurate.

Therefore, these creators are making business decisions...decisions that carry economic consequences...based on their faulty perception of the situation.

Now, most creators don't have PhDs in Econ, but even they understand that alienating part of your customer base because of a flawed perception is bad business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
If you don't like the fact Stan Lee charges $100 for his signature, or believe it doesn't add that value, then don't pay it. You can ask "why" all you want, but no one owes anyone an explanation as to what the answer to "why" is.

True, but you've just used an example that demonstrates that you don't understand the issue at hand.

Stan Lee charges roughly $125 for his sig these days. However...Stan does NOT charge an ADDITIONAL $50 because the book he's signing might end up in a slab. It's $125...give or take...regardless of what he's signing, and why (there's YOUR "why."

Everyone pays the same price. No one is charged a premium at the point of purchase because of what they intend to do with THEIR PROPERTY afterwards.

Todd McFarlane, on the other hand, signs FOR FREE at conventions and other events...but refuses to sign for slabbed books except at specially designated signings a couple of times a year. For that, he charges $55, which is absurd.

In other words...for the same thing...his signature...he charges a huge premium because he believes...erroneously...that anyone getting his signature slabbed is "making a profit."

I believe...and I may certainly be wrong about this...but I believe that if Todd understood what the situation really was...and the facilitators who have exclusive access to him DO NOT tell him, because they have a stake in those fees...a built-in conflict of interest...he wouldn't charge so much, if at all.

For example...at this point, the only ones "making a profit" on Todd's books are getting only the premium books signed...ASM #298-301, Spider-Man #1 Gold UPC, Spider-Man #1 Platinum. Just about everything else is excluded, because Todd has priced himself right out of the market.

What's a 9.8 signed Infinity, Inc #34 worth...? Not the cost to get it done, that's for sure.

But Todd doesn't understand that, and maybe...just maybe...he would, IF someone explained it to him.

That's MY "why."

Hopefully, I've cleared up a few of your misconceptions here tonight.

8 years ago

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 29.08K	29.08K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 10
	Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics "Forging" of Signatures was not a very large problem. Those who say so probably easily speak like Trump that 3 to 5 million undocumented aliens voted in the USA which is also utter BS. Forged signatures literally ruined the sports memorabilia secondary market. Do you really think that people came up with this service for no reason whatsoever? No, there is a legitimate need for verification as the success of any collectibles market is sure to attract hucksters and charlatans.
	8 years ago	Post 185 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics "Forging" of Signatures was not a very large problem. Those who say so probably easily speak like Trump that 3 to 5 million undocumented aliens voted in the USA which is also utter BS. ANY ONE can be a "Restoration Expert" simply by buying a Black Lite bulb. Turn off lights, turn on B-Lite, most anything on printed on page just jumps out at you. "Pressing" of books to manufacture a higher grade to the mythical 9.8 is a relatively new Fad which will also undermine the foundation of a solid comics biz though done correctly in basicly undetectable. As Steve Borock voiced to me not that long ago, "It wasn't supposed to get like this" which one is free to interpret how one wants to. Me, I applaud CBCS starting up as it has knocked CGC off its monopoly train track it was arrogantly thinking it had become It was the dismissive arrogance of CGC peoples which Jim Starlin has voiced his displeasure with having very little to do with his missing out on ten bucks. I agree with much of what you say in principle, Bob, but there's a great tinge of bitterness that comes through on most of your posts. It's disappointing, especially coming from someone who has so much to offer the younger generations. Plus, your blatantly aggressive political comments are a great turn-off to your potential customer base. Are you offended when I say "illegal aliens", which is how the statutes...you know, the actual, written law code...characterizes them...? Pressing isn't new. It's been done for decades. And how do you know forging wasn't, and isn't, a big problem...? Simply because of the relatively low premiums people have paid for them? That's true to an extent, but that doesn't mean skilled forgers haven't quietly been churning out their "product" and making a profit off of very easy work.
	8 years ago	Post 186 • IP flag post

Collector 1.86K	1.86K jrs private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 6
	@DocBrown, your points would be more persuasive without the following remarks (and others like them), which do nothing to productively advance the discourse [all numbering is mine]: Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown 1. For someone who claims to have a PhD in Econ, your theories and statements are substantially out of touch with reality. I suspect that's because, even though you run a business (I assume), you've not yet had the brainwashing from think-tank, lack-of-real-world-experience professors scrubbed out of you yet. 2. However...let's highlight one of the statements that is an odd contrast to someone with a PhD in Econ: 3. A PhD in Econ, maybe...a PhD in English grammar, not so much. 4. Not sure why you don't understand this. I've explained it many, many times. 5. Your school wasn't very big on cost-benefit analysis, huh...? 6. In any event...again, that's not the issue at stake here, and I don't think you really understand it, so let me explain again, in case you don't: 7. True, but you've just used an example that demonstrates that you don't understand the issue at hand. 8. Hopefully, I've cleared up a few of your misconceptions here tonight. Why say any of that, particularly when you complain about simple memes that further the dialogue here with humor (in many cases)? A little (or a lot) less condescension would go a long way.
	8 years ago	Post 187 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics "Forging" of Signatures was not a very large problem. Those who say so probably easily speak like Trump that 3 to 5 million undocumented aliens voted in the USA which is also utter BS. Forged signatures literally ruined the sports memorabilia secondary market. Do you really think that people came up with this service for no reason whatsoever? No, there is a legitimate need for verification as the success of any collectibles market is sure to attract hucksters and charlatans. Of course there were "reasons" to be stipulated re why services are cranked up. All marketing is propaganda which one is free to feed into and/or upon. It also was not as much a problem as some make it out to be. What brought down Matronet out of Chicago re the sports scenarios was more than the sigs being forced. Now, maybe being a longtime guy into all this stuff, I learned a long time ago how to tell the sigs of a great many creators. Heck, back in the early days of daze was acquiring their art directly from them. My first trade with Frank Frazetta was the 1971 Seulingcon NYC for 90 of his Johnny Comet daily strip originals. That litany could go on for a long time I do appreciate there are those who get worried their Sig bought off some table might be forged I also think - strongly - it was not as big a problem as has been made out to be by those who seek to capitalize on Fear.
	8 years ago	Post 188 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BLBcomics
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111
I know what I'd do. I'd charge for autographs with witness and provide free for all others; just like Starlin. I despise what's happened to this industry and I'll revolt in the same way. My perogative

People have been flipping signed books for decades...long before slabbing existed.

CGC Sells Fear like any other corporation seeking monopoly which has taken in well over $150 Million since opening its doors.

What does your claim of their gross revenue have to do with this discussion...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beerbohm
"Fear" of signature "fraud" is merely a newest propaganda wrinkle pounded out by those who seek to profit from Fear.

Oh please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB
Back in 1968 I first began speculating in "new" comics on a larger scale then I had when I began purchasing 200 of each of the Marvel expansion issues like Shield 1, Doctor Strange 169, SM 1. Hulk 102, CA 100, IM #1, plus Ditko DC entry like the Creeper and H&D Showcase issues, plus their #1 issues soon thereafter, etc etc. all at cover price from Fremont News & Travel who ordered them "extra" for me from Omaha News with instructions of no "tops & bottoms" of the 50 ish wire wrapped bundles.

I began doubling my money at a quarter each at shows and thru RBCC adverts, etc. I soon discovered I could quad my Iron Man #1 "investments" to 50 cents each.

Adams, Ditko, Kirby, Smith, Rogers, Starlin, Wrightson - I ordered mainly off of creator art as people were collecting that way then.

So X 56-65 ordered a pile, GL/GA 76 onwards likewise about 100 of each. 85 & 86 the numbers went much higher

By 1970 I pre-ordered and bought 600 Conan #1 at 20 cents each. All of $120. In six months was getting a buck each.

We used have a term called "regional scarcity" which I will explain in more detail down the road. It deals with the concept of "affidavit return fraud" once the ID distributors went on an "honor" system regarding returns.

This is WHY books like Adams GL/GA, his X run, Kirby's New Gods and Forever People, Wrightson's Swamp Thing supposedly were not "selling" well. In reality they were.

Jim Starlin's Warlock 9 thru 15 were also on the "hot" lists.

By the late 70s when Clairmont, Byrne & Austin began X-Men 108 orders kept being doubled till by #114 was pre-ordering 10,000 per issue thru till after Byrne left with #143.

After a steady downward trend thru the 70s Super Heroes began to resurge. In a year of holding began to get ten bucks for X-Men issues in the teens, and it just kept going up and up.

By the early 80s a title such as GI Joe #1 since Marvel made that one issue returnable at the time I pre-ordered 35,000 copies. The "key" became #2 which I pre-ordered 17,000 copies. Since #2 was ordered before #1 got to the stores most other dealers went light.

I cleaned up on #2 as it was soon being bandied about upwards of $50 a copy back then. No one had it. I did not tell any one how many I had.

GI Joe #2 was, indeed, the key issue...but it did not become so until 1984-85...a couple of YEARS after it was published. GI Joe wasn't an instant success. It took a couple of years for it to become a pop culture phenomenon. "Soon", in this case, was a couple of years.

If you were ordering immensely speculative titles like GI Joe...and the reason those early issues were so valuable is because they WERE NOT PRINTED IN VERY HIGH NUMBERS...then where are all your duds?

And why are you wasting time with comics, when you could be a billionaire with prestidigitation skills like that...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB
I was trading these new "hot" comics for Golden Age, etc. which is how I ended up with more than 400 Church copies directly from Chuck amongst many others back in the day.

But GI Joe wasn't hot when it was new, relatively speaking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB
The more publicity, the more others tried jumping in on such a band wagon. This is in part what my book Comic Book Store Wars is about. What exactly were the "origins" of what we came to call the Direct Market coupled with the rise of the comic book store phenom.

Speculating was always hit or miss.

One had to do a lot of what back then by the mid 70s I called "market research" others would call "reading" comics. One studied the comics to figure out what others would and/or might like to acquire

Others were like sheep.

Jim Starlin has made a line in the sand - it seems to me - and I might easily be wrong, but his view as I interpret is asking comics people to stop being sheep.

The slab Sig Fad will crash and burn

That's a VERY, VERY bold thing to say on a SLAB COMPANY'S message board.

Sig Series has been around for 16 years. CBCS has incorporated it into their business model.

That's an awful long time for a "fad."

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB
One can see such phenom before it happens.

Are we there yet?

Again...with such powers of foresight, why are you not a billionaire...?

8 years ago

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics "Forging" of Signatures was not a very large problem. Those who say so probably easily speak like Trump that 3 to 5 million undocumented aliens voted in the USA which is also utter BS. ANY ONE can be a "Restoration Expert" simply by buying a Black Lite bulb. Turn off lights, turn on B-Lite, most anything on printed on page just jumps out at you. "Pressing" of books to manufacture a higher grade to the mythical 9.8 is a relatively new Fad which will also undermine the foundation of a solid comics biz though done correctly in basicly undetectable. As Steve Borock voiced to me not that long ago, "It wasn't supposed to get like this" which one is free to interpret how one wants to. Me, I applaud CBCS starting up as it has knocked CGC off its monopoly train track it was arrogantly thinking it had become It was the dismissive arrogance of CGC peoples which Jim Starlin has voiced his displeasure with having very little to do with his missing out on ten bucks. I agree with much of what you say in principle, Bob, but there's a great tinge of bitterness that comes through on most of your posts. It's disappointing, especially coming from someone who has so much to offer the younger generations. Plus, your blatantly aggressive political comments are a great turn-off to your potential customer base. Are you offended when I say "illegal aliens", which is how the statutes...you know, the actual, written law code...characterizes them...? Pressing isn't new. It's been done for decades. And how do you know forging wasn't, and isn't, a big problem...? Simply because of the relatively low premiums people have paid for them? That's true to an extent, but that doesn't mean skilled forgers haven't quietly been churning out their "product" and making a profit off of very easy work. Is there some "bitterness" in my postings? Probably, but I will not get side tracked in to such a discussion of dealing with after math of a warehouse flooding out many moons ago losing by today's prices over $25 million in a week end. Or coming back from that with a Rick Griffin art gallery only to have my friend killed by a delivery van blowing him off his Harley. What you may interpret as "bitter" is more like a sadness which will never go away. What does gripe me were the Liar attacks launched by CGC owner surrogates post CGC inhouse damage to All Star #8 as well as #7 with the owner of that firm basicly saying, "F*** Off" which led to anger, but not bitterness. When that happened Steve Borock was apologizing to me with lines like, "Bob, I'm sorry. It's not my company." I APPLAUD loudly and openly CBCS coming in on the set to restore real ethics back into the slab game. I am talking about what eBay itself calls "Intent to Disrupt" attacks on my ebay store which led to many a talk with eBay investigators corroborating same which led to a lot of investigatory home work. With all the talk re plumbers, housing construction, etc etc etc in this thread, bringing up "false facts" like our (so far) current fearless leader spouting what he does is in that same league. That man scares much of the world. And if one is not, then naive is apt description. I am a firm believer that Truth WIns Out in the end.
	8 years ago	Post 190 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I know quite a few comics dealers pressing out spine rolls beginning back in the 1970s. Nope, pressing is NOTHING new and has been with us for over four decades now. The stories I could tell in that department..... Me, I would much rather have white paper with a few spine bends than yellowing paper which means the sulphur content of the cheap pulp paper is leaching out but "looking" NM/M. Ever seen a white paper Dime Novel? Me neither.....
	8 years ago	Post 191 • IP flag post

Collector

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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jrs
@DocBrown, your points would be more persuasive without the following remarks (and others like them), which do nothing to productively advance the discourse [all numbering is mine]:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown

1. For someone who claims to have a PhD in Econ, your theories and statements are substantially out of touch with reality. I suspect that's because, even though you run a business (I assume), you've not yet had the brainwashing from think-tank, lack-of-real-world-experience professors scrubbed out of you yet.

2. However...let's highlight one of the statements that is an odd contrast to someone with a PhD in Econ:

3. A PhD in Econ, maybe...a PhD in English grammar, not so much.

4. Not sure why you don't understand this. I've explained it many, many times.

5. Your school wasn't very big on cost-benefit analysis, huh...?

6. In any event...again, that's not the issue at stake here, and I don't think you really understand it, so let me explain again, in case you don't:

7. True, but you've just used an example that demonstrates that you don't understand the issue at hand.

8. Hopefully, I've cleared up a few of your misconceptions here tonight.

Why say any of that, particularly when you complain about simple memes that further the dialogue here with humor (in many cases)? A little (or a lot) less condescension would go a long way.

While I appreciate the fact that you took the time out of your day to comment about what I say, and how I say it, your argument falls flat.

I understand why you have a problem with what I say, and how I say it. You, like many, are offended by forthrightness. You see forthrightness as "condescension", because you don't appreciate plain-spoken honesty.

You're offended because someone says someone else doesn't understand the issue, when they demonstrably don't understand the issue. No, no, we mustn't say what really is...that's condescending!

In other words, you, like many, worship the FORM over the SUBSTANCE. The substance is immaterial; it's the FORM that's important, here.

Then, at the very same time, you fail to see...or you ignore...such comments from others, such as the following:

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
I'm about to ruin a lot of your misconceptions about business in a capitalist society.

You don't think that's a condescending statement...?

Or, you think it deserves a "pass" because you agree with it...?

Of course it's condescending, and it was intended to be. So? Who cares? I'm not offended by it. Yet, when I respond (in what you presume to be) in kind, you are so offended, you make it a special point to single me out and scold me in public...?

Come on.

What do you think is more condescending: telling someone they don't understand the issue, or telling everyone you have a PhD in Economics (therefore implying that those who don't should shut up because you know better than they)...?

You are either persuaded by my arguments, or you are not. The arguments are reasonable on their merits, or they are not. Tempering your level of persuasion based on the form in which those arguments take is, frankly, juvenile. It's how young people "reason."

"E = MC^2"

...is the exact same thing as:

"E = MC^2, which you might understand if you paid more attention."

The fundamental truth expressed is not altered by the addition of what you term "condescending", but I call "speaking plainly."

So, while I appreciate the concern, until and if you recognize and acknowledge these comments by everyone, I really don't think it's reasonable for you to single me out as you have done. When you call out the snide, arrogant, condescending, unproductive comments, memes, and the like of everyone, then you will have attained the high moral ground necessary to do it for anyone.

But, truly, I appreciate that you've taken the time out of your day to address the issue, and hope you apply those same standards to everyone.

8 years ago

-Our Odin- Rest in Peace 39.31K	39.31K Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 8
	This thread is being unlocked in the hopes that the discussion can remain civil and respectful. A word of warning - be respectful of other forum members, their comments and their positions. Show respect when talking about Mr. Starlin, CGC or anyone else connected to this subject. Failure to do so will result in intervention by the moderators. Instead of locking the thread again, we will just give offending board members a vacation so everyone else can take part in the discussion. This will serve as the only warning.
	8 years ago	Post 193 • IP flag post

I swore no more comics, then this happened. 726	726 PaulPop private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	That escalated quickly.
	8 years ago	Post 194 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by PaulPop That escalated quickly.
	8 years ago	Post 195 • IP flag post

Collector 1.91K	1.91K Savage_Spawn private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Everybody take a quick chill pill. Nothing riles peeps up like politics, religion, and sports debates. I used to go at it like the Incredibly rAgin' Hulk. You ain't gonna solve the Worlds problems on a comic book forum and you will rarely change a persons deeply held beliefs. I remember back in the day I had a daily knock down drag out during lunch at an old job I held. We were actually drawing an audience. Finally I provided and proved my pov beyond any doubt. My opponent openly admitted I was right. I WON!!!!! at least until the next week when I overheard him spouting the same utter nonsense I thought I had wiped from his pea brain..... You will not change the World from an online messageboard forum.... trust me..... as i am a sPaWn of the old unmoderated Usenet message boards.....
	8 years ago	Post 196 • IP flag post

Collector 1.53K	1.53K mattness private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 8
	@Jesse_O I wish a couple of these members would get a permanent vacation. This board would be much more enjoyable and you wouldn't have to waste your time repeatedly writing warnings.
	8 years ago	Post 197 • IP flag post

If I could, I would. I swear. 54.24K	54.24K DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Starlin just posted a butt blister of a letter on Facebook: MY FELLOW FREELANCERS, if any of you have ever had trouble with CGC at a convention and want to do something about it, feel free to copy and paste this letter from a lawyer that Spencer Beck provided. Sign your name and send it via certified mail to CGC. May 16, 2017 CGC PO Box 4738 Sarasota, FL 34230 Attn: Chief Executive Officer Dear Sirs: Effective immediately, please cease and desist from using my name in any marketing, promotional or other materials. Please also do not use my name to solicit business for your company or in any way to advance your own commercial interests/profits. My name is valuable to me and I do not authorize you to use it in commerce. Additionally, I no longer wish to be involved with your “Signature Series” and do not authorize or consent to someone employed, affiliated or related to your company (or an independent contractor working in any manner related to your company) from witnessing my signatures. I ask that you instruct your employees not to act as a witness and to identify themselves to me as I will not sign items if I understand they are to be verified by CGC or made part of your Signature Series. I would also appreciate it if this was noted on your website as well so my fans are not disappointed. Thank you for your prompt attention and understanding,
	8 years ago	Post 198 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DrWatson Starlin just posted a butt blister of a letter on Facebook: MY FELLOW FREELANCERS, if any of you have ever had trouble with CGC at a convention and want to do something about it, feel free to copy and paste this letter from a lawyer that Spencer Beck provided. Sign your name and send it via certified mail to CGC. May 16, 2017 CGC PO Box 4738 Sarasota, FL 34230 Attn: Chief Executive Officer Dear Sirs: Effective immediately, please cease and desist from using my name in any marketing, promotional or other materials. Please also do not use my name to solicit business for your company or in any way to advance your own commercial interests/profits. My name is valuable to me and I do not authorize you to use it in commerce. Additionally, I no longer wish to be involved with your “Signature Series” and do not authorize or consent to someone employed, affiliated or related to your company (or an independent contractor working in any manner related to your company) from witnessing my signatures. I ask that you instruct your employees not to act as a witness and to identify themselves to me as I will not sign items if I understand they are to be verified by CGC or made part of your Signature Series. I would also appreciate it if this was noted on your website as well so my fans are not disappointed. Thank you for your prompt attention and understanding, I've often wondered why the creators of comics don't copyright their names, signatures, and likenesses.
	8 years ago	Post 199 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 29.08K	29.08K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics Now, maybe being a longtime guy into all this stuff, I learned a long time ago how to tell the sigs of a great many creators. Heck, back in the early days of daze was acquiring their art directly from them. My first trade with Frank Frazetta was the 1971 Seulingcon NYC for 90 of his Johnny Comet daily strip originals. That litany could go on for a long time. Being an expert in the industry and having the ability to recognize legitimate vs fake signatures just means that you do not need the service due to your expertise in this area. To the layman or hobbyist without this expertise this valuable service should be a high priority. To use an analogy, just because you might have the expertise to press your own books does not mean that others should forgo pressing or attempt to press their own books without this level of skill and experience. While I think you have made it clear that some of these services are not your cup of tea, the collectors or dealers that are using the services will be happier for it.
	8 years ago	Post 200 • IP flag post

Collector 1.86K	1.86K jrs private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@Towmater, there are laws on the books that address the use of another's name or likeness, but it's the artist's prerogative whether to enforce them.
	8 years ago	Post 201 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 13.26K	13.26K shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	From his various FB posts, it sure sounds like Starlin is "anti-signature series coffins" in general, not just CGC. He may not be aware that CBCS even exists. I suppose the moral of it all is just that he should have been treated respectfully. CGC should have explained better why he couldnt have the person's information, and found some kind of common ground before it escalated. Pretty sure Starlin would have been a fan of CGC had Zach been there to take his complaint
	8 years ago	Post 202 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	drchaos, I agree with you. Those who do not know - ie have zero expertise - and seek to feel reassured on what ever level they are playing on, by all means, go for it. Can I get a witness? Again, I reiterate, for the umpteenth time over the years, I have never had anything against the concept of 3rd Party "certification" for those who think they need such a service. but what many of us find humorous in a way is how the term "grading" is now used interchangeably with getting a book CGC'd. As in if a book is not slabbed, it is not graded. That is simply silly. How did comics fandom survive for decades prior to all this brou-ha-ha? Back on topic as it were, if one actually "reads" Jim Starlin's words on his Facebook page, his ire was raised by the sheer arrogance of CGC types brushing him off. It had nothing to do with the five or ten dollars of the two comics in question.
	8 years ago	Post 203 • IP flag post

CBCS broke up with me over Facebook. 3.99K	3.99K CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by mattness @Jesse_O I wish a couple of these members would get a permanent vacation. This board would be much more enjoyable and you wouldn't have to waste your time repeatedly writing warnings. Agreed.
	8 years ago	Post 204 • IP flag post

CBCS broke up with me over Facebook. 3.99K	3.99K CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Poof
	8 years ago	Post 205 • IP flag post

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