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Jim Starlin refuses to work with CGC2834

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CBCS broke up with me over Facebook. 3.99K	3.99K CFP_Comics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	Quote: Originally Posted by JLS_Comics I tend to prefer Kohler over Moen I prefer grohe.
	8 years ago	Post 151 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego Again...their right* to do has never been in question, and never will be. Yet for some reason it keeps coming up as the answer, but that question wasn't posed, and never will be.* Correct. The question seems to be whether or not it is their business to know. It is neither their right to know. But it is in their best business interest to find out, and adjust price accordingly So, like, your analogy seems to have been proven to be a good one. Bet that felt like this...
	8 years ago	Post 152 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Aren't you an economist...? They don't have to ask you, that cost is already built in to the price of the goods. Yes, I have PhD in Economics.
	8 years ago	Post 153 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by dpiercy Quote: Originally Posted by BLBcomics And some one here chose to snicker snicker* denigrate Neal Adams "charging" a few bucks just to look in his direction.* It was a joke and a pretty funny one, too. I don't think it was denigrating Neal Adams, just poking fun at the charging for signature scenarious. Neal Adams is awesome, I think it is great he is such a fixture at cons these days. In any other circumstance yes I agree your quip is indeed full of humorous merit. Even now, to an extent remains funny. But it also might leave one with the thought Neal is all about the money - and nothing else. Then he comes along and gives my daughter an intensely beautiful Batman which went into a benefit auction for her via Russ Cochran which helped her a lot once it sold. And it is great he is such a fixture at the shows nationwide.
	8 years ago	Post 154 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 13.26K	13.26K shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	LOL @Towmater , killin the gifs today
	8 years ago	Post 155 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
I said the price doesn't CHANGE for a SPECIFIC customer, based on what the plumber thinks that customer intends to do with the house after the fact.

Yes, it does.

If I know I'm bidding a project because the owner is intending to sell, my price GOES DOWN. For the same exact work. Otherwise I cannot compete in the market, as that market is different.

Yes. And going DOWN is different from going UP.

If there's a DISCOUNT (rather than a SURCHARGE) for the service...well, we're not talking about DISCOUNTS from creators, are we...?

If it's something that BENEFITS, rather than HARMS, the customer, then naturally, the customer is going to want to take advantage of that. That's real free-market capitalism, not the "how DARE you make fat stacks of cash off of MY signature??" butthurt that is at issue here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB
I can get two different numbers from the same plumber or painter for the same exact work they did 10 miles away, but the circumstances of the project are different.

Again...that's not relevant. They are, as you state, different circumstances.

What would be analogous would be a painter or plumber saying to someone "oh, you plan on turning your house into an art museum, and charging admission...? Oh, well, in that case, the price is now X times what it was before I knew that."

Same house. Same plumber/painter. Same job. Same exact circumstances. Higher price because the plumber/painter doesn't like what you're planning to do with your property, which is none of his business.

You're arguing points that aren't contested, and not understanding the one that is.

8 years ago

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Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
The only "WHY" people really need is because they can.

No. That's not the "why" at issue here. It's a bad, juvenile argument. Business doesn't operate that way. "Because I said so" isn't a valid economic argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
Is it always fair? No, but that doesn't really matter.

Not contested. No one is talking about what's fair. What's fair to you is clearly not what's fair to me, and vice versa. I doubt you could find 5 people with different views on this board to agree with what is "fair" and what is not.

What is at issue here, rather, is is it WISE. Is it good business. Is it economically sound?

And, most importantly: would these creators be doing this if they knew the entire scope of the issue?

I suspect, knowing what I know about human nature and comic book creators, that for the vast majority of them, the answer is a resounding "no."

But, because they operate under the erroneous idea that all people getting yellow labels are making a profit, sometimes a lot of profit, off of their signature, they are offended and feel that they are being taken advantage of.

That is not accurate, and never has been.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
It's obvious they're cashing in, but then again until that signature is on your book, the signature is still their property. They can justify selling their property just like many on here are justifying what they do with their property.

Agreed, and not contested. The only caveat I would make to that is that once they offer it to the public, the public now has a right to discuss all aspects of it, including price, value, aesthetics, and anything else a potential buyer might consider.

8 years ago

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Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics

They don't have to ask you, that cost is already built in to the price of the goods.

Exactly!

Now you're getting it! That price is the same FOR EVERYONE, regardless of what they intend to do with it! You're not charged a higher price than Fred down the street because you want to use that faucet for your modern art sculpture. You and Fred pay the same exact price!

EXACTLY!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCC
Yes, I have PhD in Economics.

Is it too late to ask for a refund...?

I'm kidding! I kid! Mostly!

8 years ago

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego Again...their right* to do has never been in question, and never will be. Yet for some reason it keeps coming up as the answer, but that question wasn't posed, and never will be.* Correct. The question seems to be whether or not it is their business to know. It is neither their right to know. But it is in their best business interest to find out, and adjust price accordingly Silly memes from the peanut gallery aside, the answer is no. It's none of their business what I intend to do with my property.
	8 years ago	Post 159 • IP flag post

I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! 20.19K	20.19K Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 2
	I know what I'd do. I'd charge for autographs with witness and provide free for all others; just like Starlin. I despise what's happened to this industry and I'll revolt in the same way. My perogative
	8 years ago	Post 160 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Lonestar Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Not true. Sorry. The plumber doesn't ask you what you're planning to do with the house. It's none of their business. And, if they did, most rational people would consider that nosiness, and potentially Actually, a good contractor or consultant would ask you what you are doing and why, so they can better advise you as to materials to use, how to do the job, or even if to do the job. That's a bad argument, and not relevant to the discussion. A good contractor isn't asking to HARM you (as these creators are doing.) They're asking to HELP you. That's a completely different situation. And if I didn't want to tell the contractor, that's my right...and I'm not charged a higher price because of it.
	8 years ago	Post 161 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego Again...their right* to do has never been in question, and never will be. Yet for some reason it keeps coming up as the answer, but that question wasn't posed, and never will be.* Correct. The question seems to be whether or not it is their business to know. It is neither their right to know. But it is in their best business interest to find out, and adjust price accordingly Silly memes from the peanut gallery aside, the answer is no. It's none of their business what I intend to do with my property. I would love to see you explain your points face to face with a creator whose sig you're trying to get. Though we know that will never happen because you know: bottom line
	8 years ago	Post 162 • IP flag post

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonestar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
The argument that "a creator is free to charge whatever they want, to whomever they want, for whatever reason they want, and it's no one's business but THEIRS" is a spurious one.

Once someone offers something for sale...in this case, a signature...it is no longer "THEIR business."

It becomes subject to public discussion and negotiation.

Just like if I was offering my house for sale. The potential buyers now have the right to question my price, or whether the foundation is solid, or the A/C has leaks, etc.

That's how it works.

If I'm not selling it, it's no one's business but my own.

If I'm selling it, the buying pool has the right to question how, why, where, when, and what.

That said...charging a different price for the same service...in this case, a signature...based on the perception of what someone might do with their property afterwards...is not only no one's business, but also quite rude.

Again: if the painter paints my house for $5,000, and it adds $25,000 to the value of the house...am I going to give the painter his "cut"? Is the painter going to charge me more because I'm selling the house?

No and no. It's none of his business. He gives me a price, and he paints the house. The house is not his, he does not own it, he does not maintain it, and he has no stake in it. He does not charge me a higher price because he knows I'm selling it.

What I do with the house after he has worked on it is none of his business...

...even if he signs it, which he better not do, unless his name is Jeff Koons, in which case, I hope he does. How much less so an artist who had nothing to do with preserving the particular copy that I'd like him to simply sign...?

Charge whatever you wish. The market will bear what it will bear. But don't alienate your fans because of your misunderstanding that people are "profiting" off of your signature by charging a premium for your signature based on where you think it might end up.

Why is the argument spurious? You yourself say later in your post that they are free to charge what they want.

You have misunderstood. Let me clarify: the USE of that argument is spurious...not the actual argument itself.

The "they can charge whatever they want!" is a spurious argument to use in this discussion, because that is not in contention (as you rightfully point out. Context is everything.) Please note the quotation marks I used in my first paragraph. Those are the indications that tell the reader what I'm referring to.

No one is saying they can't charge what they want. So continually bringing it up, as if that ends the discussion, is spurious. No one is saying they can't.

The argument itself isn't spurious...USING that argument in THIS discussion IS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LS
I agree that the market will bear what it will bear, as you say. Creators are free to charge what they want and to upcharge if they want. We fans are free to not pay if we don't want to.

Yup.

People keep bringing it up, but no one's claimed otherwise.

Why? Perhaps because they don't have a better argument...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LS
As I have written several times in this thread. There is a clear misunderstanding by many creators of the practices of the grading companies and motivations of most fans. Hopefully there is a plan to get them better educated.

Exactly. That's the issue, here.

And make no mistake about it: the grading companies who offer sig series are losing business because of these things.

8 years ago

Collector 503	503 1243782365 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I hate that this thread has become a few people for the same 8 pages trying to act like they are important because they have an opinion. IF you are anti-slabbing because of your own actions and CGC will not allow you to submit to them your anti-slabbing stance is irrelevant.
	8 years ago	Post 164 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by jimmylinguini IF you are anti-slabbing because of your own actions and CGC will not allow you to submit to them your anti-slabbing stance is irrelevant.
	8 years ago	Post 165 • IP flag post

Collector 2.54K	2.54K Themaxx35 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by jimmylinguini IF you are anti-slabbing because of your own actions and CGC will not allow you to submit to them your anti-slabbing stance is irrelevant. I was tuning this thread out, but now I am curious.
	8 years ago	Post 166 • IP flag post

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	Give it time.
	8 years ago	Post 167 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by jimmylinguini I hate that this thread has become a few people for the same 8 pages trying to act like they are important because they have an opinion. IF you are anti-slabbing because of your own actions and CGC will not allow you to submit to them your anti-slabbing stance is irrelevant. It was fun sitting next to you at the retailer summit. You're a pretty skinny dude.
	8 years ago	Post 168 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111 I know what I'd do. I'd charge for autographs with witness and provide free for all others; just like Starlin. I despise what's happened to this industry and I'll revolt in the same way. My perogative People have been flipping signed books for decades...long before slabbing existed.
	8 years ago	Post 169 • IP flag post

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	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by jimmylinguini I hate that this thread has become a few people for the same 8 pages trying to act like they are important because they have an opinion. IF you are anti-slabbing because of your own actions and CGC will not allow you to submit to them your anti-slabbing stance is irrelevant. It was fun sitting next to you at the retailer summit. You're a pretty skinny dude. Kind of rude not to say anything...
	8 years ago	Post 170 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by jimmylinguini Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by jimmylinguini I hate that this thread has become a few people for the same 8 pages trying to act like they are important because they have an opinion. IF you are anti-slabbing because of your own actions and CGC will not allow you to submit to them your anti-slabbing stance is irrelevant. It was fun sitting next to you at the retailer summit. You're a pretty skinny dude. Kind of rude not to say anything... I was too starstruck.
	8 years ago	Post 171 • IP flag post

Collector 503	503 1243782365 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by jimmylinguini Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by jimmylinguini I hate that this thread has become a few people for the same 8 pages trying to act like they are important because they have an opinion. IF you are anti-slabbing because of your own actions and CGC will not allow you to submit to them your anti-slabbing stance is irrelevant. It was fun sitting next to you at the retailer summit. You're a pretty skinny dude. Kind of rude not to say anything... I was too starstruck. Understandable
	8 years ago	Post 172 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by jimmylinguini Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by jimmylinguini Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by jimmylinguini I hate that this thread has become a few people for the same 8 pages trying to act like they are important because they have an opinion. IF you are anti-slabbing because of your own actions and CGC will not allow you to submit to them your anti-slabbing stance is irrelevant. It was fun sitting next to you at the retailer summit. You're a pretty skinny dude. Kind of rude not to say anything... I was too starstruck. Understandable Also, I thought you were impotent because you had an opinion, and I was intimidated by your impotence.
	8 years ago	Post 173 • IP flag post

Collector 503	503 1243782365 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	lol
	8 years ago	Post 174 • IP flag post

Collector 16.89K	16.89K DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Plus, you're super dreamy, so...there's that...
	8 years ago	Post 175 • IP flag post

Collector* 10.54K	10.54K Towmater private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I never got an answer to this: Does CBCS allow books to be dropped off and signed without a witness actually seeing them signed?
	8 years ago	Post 176 • IP flag post

Collector 2.13K	2.13K ZosoRocks private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111 I know what I'd do. I'd charge for autographs with witness and provide free for all others; just like Starlin. I despise what's happened to this industry and I'll revolt in the same way. My perogative People have been flipping signed books for decades...long before slabbing existed. I agree DocB....BUT.....signatures started to be forged for profit and that caused the intro to Certification, which led to authentication, which led to witnessed authenticated. It is an evolution that was bound to happen as our community grew. I just wish they would do this forvinyl records. Anyone want to embark on a new grading company with me?? :o) You can say that you heard it here first!!!
	8 years ago	Post 177 • IP flag post

I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery. 56.1K	56.1K DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 11
	The single greatest contributor to the rise of graded book services was the necessity to counteract all the old school dealers that sold overgraded books with undisclosed restoration.
	8 years ago	Post 178 • IP flag post

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	@DocBrown I'm about to ruin a lot of your misconceptions about business in a capitalist society. 1. Major companies like Coca Cola, Sony, Moen, Apple, pick an industry and pick any major manufacturer, often dictate to retailers how much they can sell their merchandise - thus dictating their profit margins. It's no coincidence that AT&The, Verizon or Sprint all sell the new Apple Phone within its first three to six months of release for the same price - Apple dictates to them what they can sell it for. Want a new PS5 when it hits the market? Doesn't matter what retailer you buy it from, they all charge the same price for gaming systems with the same specs. If the retailer raises or cuts their price, Sony can, and often has, enforce penalties to the retailer. 2. Companies like Home Depot do have two tier pricing based on what you do with an item after it's purchased. Not everyone buys the same 2x4 for the same price. Major contractors pay more based on the fact that they are going to turn around and sell it for a profit. Ironically, it actually costs less for Home Depot to sell to these contractors. Contractors can pay upwards of 25 cents more per 2x4 than you will. It doesn't sound like a lot until you see how many 2x4s are used in a single house, then multiply that number by the number of houses in a new subdivision. Average house uses about 2000 2x4s which means the builder is paying $500 more per house - and that's just the 2x4s. Think about how much goes into a house - drywall, insulation, plywood, tyvek, shingles, roofing paper, tile, paint, faucets, toilets, bathtubs, cabinets and that's just basics. This price is often paid because it's convenient to the builder since it's delivered directly to their site and bypasses the need to visit the store, but it's not cost effective for the builder. 3. Resalr price is calculated into many durable goods, thus ensuring that manufacturers get their cut of your resale profits, regardless if you sell it or keep it for life. They actually have an entire field of economics dedicated to studying this very thing. Many economists make their living doing studies to determine the maximum amount a company can add to their price to recoup the resale value and still maintain competitive. Now I know you'll complain, and others will claim it's communism, but this is in fact basic business models where people enter into these agreements under their own freewill. People charge these prices because people will pay these prices. That's the only "why" there is. If you don't like the fact Stan Lee charges $100 for his signature, or believe it doesn't add that value, then don't pay it. You can ask "why" all you want, but no one owes anyone an explanation as to what the answer to "why" is.
	8 years ago	Post 179 • IP flag post

Collector 1.15K	1.15K BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 6
	Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Quote: Originally Posted by Nuffsaid111 I know what I'd do. I'd charge for autographs with witness and provide free for all others; just like Starlin. I despise what's happened to this industry and I'll revolt in the same way. My perogative People have been flipping signed books for decades...long before slabbing existed. CGC Sells Fear like any other corporation seeking monopoly which has taken in well over $150 Million since opening its doors. "Fear" of signature "fraud" is merely a newest propaganda wrinkle pounded out by those who seek to profit from Fear. Back in 1968 I first began speculating in "new" comics on a larger scale then I had when I began purchasing 200 of each of the Marvel expansion issues like Shield 1, Doctor Strange 169, SM 1. Hulk 102, CA 100, IM #1, plus Ditko DC entry like the Creeper and H&D Showcase issues, plus their #1 issues soon thereafter, etc etc. all at cover price from Fremont News & Travel who ordered them "extra" for me from Omaha News with instructions of no "tops & bottoms" of the 50 ish wire wrapped bundles. I began doubling my money at a quarter each at shows and thru RBCC adverts, etc. I soon discovered I could quad my Iron Man #1 "investments" to 50 cents each. Adams, Ditko, Kirby, Smith, Rogers, Starlin, Wrightson - I ordered mainly off of creator art as people were collecting that way then. So X 56-65 ordered a pile, GL/GA 76 onwards likewise about 100 of each. 85 & 86 the numbers went much higher By 1970 I pre-ordered and bought 600 Conan #1 at 20 cents each. All of $120. In six months was getting a buck each. We used have a term called "regional scarcity" which I will explain in more detail down the road. It deals with the concept of "affidavit return fraud" once the ID distributors went on an "honor" system regarding returns. This is WHY books like Adams GL/GA, his X run, Kirby's New Gods and Forever People, Wrightson's Swamp Thing supposedly were not "selling" well. In reality they were. Jim Starlin's Warlock 9 thru 15 were also on the "hot" lists. By the late 70s when Clairmont, Byrne & Austin began X-Men 108 orders kept being doubled till by #114 was pre-ordering 10,000 per issue thru till after Byrne left with #143. After a steady downward trend thru the 70s Super Heroes began to resurge. In a year of holding began to get ten bucks for X-Men issues in the teens, and it just kept going up and up. By the early 80s a title such as GI Joe #1 since Marvel made that one issue returnable at the time I pre-ordered 35,000 copies. The "key" became #2 which I pre-ordered 17,000 copies. Since #2 was ordered before #1 got to the stores most other dealers went light. I cleaned up on #2 as it was soon being bandied about upwards of $50 a copy back then. No one had it. I did not tell any one how many I had. I was trading these new "hot" comics for Golden Age, etc. which is how I ended up with more than 400 Church copies directly from Chuck amongst many others back in the day. The more publicity, the more others tried jumping in on such a band wagon. This is in part what my book Comic Book Store Wars is about. What exactly were the "origins" of what we came to call the Direct Market coupled with the rise of the comic book store phenom. Speculating was always hit or miss. One had to do a lot of what back then by the mid 70s I called "market research" others would call "reading" comics. One studied the comics to figure out what others would and/or might like to acquire Others were like sheep. Jim Starlin has made a line in the sand - it seems to me - and I might easily be wrong, but his view as I interpret is asking comics people to stop being sheep. The slab Sig Fad will crash and burn. One can see such phenom before it happens. Are we there yet?
	8 years ago	Post 180 • IP flag post

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