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Cited: Marvel Likely Cancelling 30 titles2798

COLLECTOR JWKyle private msg quote post Address this user
If they would put out good books they would sale. I like the 70's Man-thing I read the first issue of the R.L. Stine new mini series, WTH was this he was a talking actor? Why have someone write a book if he has no concept who the character is. These character took years and years to create and get their canon all worked out. If you don't believe me go read the first issue of the hulk I don't think Stan had a clear path for that character in the beginning. I understand all these writer want to be next big thing with their far out concepts but all they usually do is take a big dump on what the character was built up to be. Disney should invest money in cloning technology and clone Roy Thomas 4 or 5 times and have him write the whole line.
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Collector jdangerc private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
@jdangerc It was reported they were going to legacy numbers, I never heard about all that other mumbo jumbo.


All I can say is that it's going to take a lot more than legacy numbering to produce more sales. They need to revamp the whole damn universe and get back to the basics.
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COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
@jdangerc agreed
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COLLECTOR Studley_Dudley private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
This guy gets it.


I'm always willing to exploit the proletariat.
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Collector Lonestar private msg quote post Address this user
@jdangerc @DarthLego clickable text At the bottom of this article, it mentions the return of the characters in the top left corner of the cover, which they call the Marvel Value Stamp. Never heard it called that before.
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Collector Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user
Just as a aside,dropping that many titles is nothing really new for Marvel or DC. It is uncommon to do that many at once but looking at those sales numbers it's a wonder that they haven't dropped them already. Marvel and DC are pretty famous for cutting titles selling below 25K .... even if those titles have settled and sell consistently at a level below 25K.

IMHO both Marvel and DC are very odd with regular Universe cancellations. Both companies tolerate numbers below 10-15K of there Vertigo and Max lines but cut almost everthing in the regular U that falls below 25K. The thing is not all titles will do that kind of sales level but that does not mean that their isn't a fanbase out there that will consistently support the book. Most solo female hero titles will not pull big numbers and anything kinda offbeat rarely pulls big numbers. Not everthing needs to be saved but if you have a title that is standing firm in numbers it is usually worth saving.
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Collector Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonestar
Wow. Those sales numbers are much lower than I thought. I recall hearing an interview once where it was stated that the break even number for a comic to make money was something like 30K or 40K sales. Maybe it's less for Marvel with the number of titles they print each month. But still, those sales numbers cannot be sustainable for a title.


Then there are lots of small publishers losing money. Most indies pull way below that and even most Vertigo and Max books pull often under 15K.
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Collector Lonestar private msg quote post Address this user
@Oxbladder I have no doubt that there are small publishers losing money, but you can't compare the break-even sales number for them vs. Marvel or DC. The overhead costs for Marvel is much greater than a creator owned/published comic. Thus they need to sell more copies to break even. A comic selling 10K copies might be profitable for a small publisher, but it almost certainly is not for Marvel.

For Marvel, there are certainly many strategic or philosophical reasons for deciding which and how many titles to publish. They may be having internal struggles on which is the best path forward. That is, publish lots of titles that have small profit margins, or less titles that have large profit margins.
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COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonestar
@ZosoRocks OK, here's my math, after doing some more searching.

On a $4.00 comic book, distributer gets 15%, retailer gets 45%, printing costs are 25%. That leaves 15% for the publisher to pay writers & artists, as well as other employees (editors, admin, etc.) and things like rent on office space, insurance, etc. So that would be $0.60 a comic book.

Using the lower end of mainstream page rates from fairpagerates.com (for some reason, I can't get the link to work) I get the cost to be about $380 per page for art, script, colors & letters. And $600 for a cover.

Assuming 22 pages of story in a comic book, gives us:
22 x $380 = $8,360 + $600 (for cover) = $8,960 per comic book.

The profession I currently work in, uses a 2.7 multiplier over our labor costs to calculate our break even point. I'm sure its different from industry to industry, but I'll use it.

So $8,960 x 2.7 = $24,192. That is what Marvel should need to make on each comic published in order to break even.

If we divide $24,192 by the 0.60 they make per comic, ($24,192/0.60) you get 40,330 comics needed to be sold just to break even.

Anyone with better information on my assumptions, please feel free to correct me. Any retailers out there? Is my information on the percentages for the distributor and retailers accurate?


Man, how the mighty have fallen. Stephen Platt was making $40K a book to ink and pencil Prophet.
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Collector VaComicsGuy private msg quote post Address this user
They have too much going on. They are making it harder and harder for collectors to come into the hobby. My little guy (10 yrs old) and I were at a LCS not long ago and he wanted to add a title to his pull list. New 52, Rebirth, Convergence. . .(you get the idea) he was having a hard time figuring out what each title was / where it was going. He hadn't even opened a book and was getting confused. Owner of the shop says he is seeing fewer and fewer new customers. Someone comes in and wants to relive some childhood memories. Asks for character "X" and owner has to ask 20 questions to get customer to right universe, timeline, story . . .
Post 60 IP   flag post
Collector Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonestar
@Oxbladder I have no doubt that there are small publishers losing money, but you can't compare the break-even sales number for them vs. Marvel or DC. The overhead costs for Marvel is much greater than a creator owned/published comic. Thus they need to sell more copies to break even. A comic selling 10K copies might be profitable for a small publisher, but it almost certainly is not for Marvel.

For Marvel, there are certainly many strategic or philosophical reasons for deciding which and how many titles to publish. They may be having internal struggles on which is the best path forward. That is, publish lots of titles that have small profit margins, or less titles that have large profit margins.


While agree that doesn't explain why they continue with Veritgo or Max books when they often pull numbers far lower than regular U cut-offs.
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Collector Oxbladder private msg quote post Address this user
@VaComicsGuy it would be very nice if they could scale down the number of titles. Especially events.
Post 62 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Vertigo probably runs on a completely separate budget with lower overhead. Which is common with subsidiary companies.
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Collector ZosoRocks private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater


Man, how the mighty have fallen. Stephen Platt was making $40K a book to ink and pencil Prophet.


I love that book and art....I'm even thinking I may have a copy signed by Platt.

I think I was all over what he was drawing back in the 90s, as I thought it was such cool stuff.

Funny, you rarely hear about those 90s artists anymore.

Hmmm....
Post 64 IP   flag post
Collector Lonestar private msg quote post Address this user
@Oxbladder The last Max imprint comic from Marvel that I can see was published in 2014. So maybe they gave those books a longer rope (for whatever reason), but finally made a financial decision to pull the plug.

I believe that at least some of the Vertigo titles are creator-owned and published under the Vertigo imprint. Astro City appears to be a Vertigo title. This was originally published by Image.

The Image business model is different from Marvel. You can't do a straight comparison between the two, just like you can't strictly compare either of them to a small press/self published comic.

That may account for why you see some Vertigo titles surviving with smaller sales as they don't need the same sales as a main Marvel title.

@DarthLego good point. I agree with this as well.
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Collector I_AM_IRON_MAN private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptainmyke
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicbooknews.com
Marvel Comics continues to suffer from dwindling sales as it's looking likely that upwards of almost 30 titles will be cancelled.

Sales for April's issue reveal 28 titles have sold less than 20K, which is right around the cancellation threshold number.


http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/marvel-comics-likely-cancelling-30-titles

Titles with an asterisk area already cancelled as of July.

CA: Sam Wilson - #21 - 18,650

Gwenpool - #14 - 17,972

Captain Marvel - #4 - 17,893

US Avengers - #5 - 17,880

Ultimates 2 - #6 -17,350

Dr. Strange & Sorcerers Supreme - #7 - 16,887

Man-Thing - #3 - 16,199 [Mini]

Hawkeye - #5 - 16,031

Totally Awesome Hulk - #18 - 16,009

Spider-Man 2099 - #22 - 15,273

Elektra - #3 - 15,113*

Silver Surfer - #10 - 15,041

World Of Wakanda - #6 - 14,547*

Nova - #5 - 14,525*

Silk - #19 - 13,524*

Thunderbolts - #12 - 13,780*

Kingpin - #3 - 13,765*

Rocket Raccoon #5 - 13,373*

Power Man & Iron Fist #15 - 13,055*

Bullseye - #3 - 12,912 [Mini]

Star lord - #6 - 12,278*

Squirrel Girl - #19 - 11,074

Occupy Avengers - #6 - 10,296

Unstoppable Wasp - #4 - 9,780

Great Lakes Avengers - #7 - 8,370

Moon Girl and Devil Dino - #18 - 7,966

Patsy Walker AKA Hellcat - #17 - 6,943*

Mosaic - #7 - 5,876*

On the fence:

Ms. Marvel - #17 - 20,881


Nothing here I'm sad to see go. If they cancel 30 mediocre titles so that the remaining titles are better...please by all means.
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Collector BLBcomics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptainmyke
Nostalgia is in. Bring back the 90s artists and writers to collaborate again.


Nothing is going to stop the slow demise of the two staple floppy comic book as a viable vehicle delivering entertainment. Just like "network" TV is fading as viable

Not even making some comic books with 100+ "variant" covers as a gimmick.

How many here still get the local newspaper?
Post 67 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
No one cares about Newspapers, there's 100s of 1000s at least who still love comics.
Post 68 IP   flag post
Collector CatmanAmerica private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBcomics
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptainmyke
Nostalgia is in. Bring back the 90s artists and writers to collaborate again.


Nothing is going to stop the slow demise of the two staple floppy comic book as a viable vehicle delivering entertainment. Just like "network" TV is fading as viable

Not even making some comic books with 100+ "variant" covers as a gimmick.

How many here still get the local newspaper?


When some 400 lb. Russian in Demented Donnie's basement manages to load malware into everyone's "protected" personal devices those old timey newspapers and two-staple floppy pamphlets may start lookin' pretty darn viable again.
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COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Or when Skynet takes over.
Post 70 IP   flag post
Collector Lonestar private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLBcomics
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptainmyke
Nostalgia is in. Bring back the 90s artists and writers to collaborate again.


Nothing is going to stop the slow demise of the two staple floppy comic book as a viable vehicle delivering entertainment. Just like "network" TV is fading as viable

Not even making some comic books with 100+ "variant" covers as a gimmick.

How many here still get the local newspaper?


Bad comparisons. Yes, print newspapers are dead, but they were a vehicle to convey the news. People now get their news in so many different ways. Using their computers and mobile devices, through the news websites, twitter, etc.

Comics are entertainment. E-books were quite popular and thought to be the future of books. But the sales of E-books have declined over the past 2 years. There will always be a market for E-books for various reasons, but they will not replace print books any time soon. I'll be surprised if digital comics makes up a significant portion of comics sales in the next few years. It may eventually, but not soon.

Also, network TV is not fading as viable. Actually, the current cable TV model is fading as viable. Streaming services will be replacing the cable TV model and sooner than most think.
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COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
The thing about comics, I'll buy and read digital copies. I'll buy physical copies that I'll not only never read, but will never even remove from the bag and board. They are a vastly different animal than newspapers.
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Collector OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxbladder


While agree that doesn't explain why they continue with Veritgo or Max books when they often pull numbers far lower than regular U cut-offs.


I don't know much about MAX, but I do know that Vertigo was created to compete with companies like Image, Top Cow and other created owned companies.

Vertigo allows creators and artists to retain the rights to their characters Vs only working on company owned characters.

What allows Vertigo to run lower numbers is

1. The company is streamlined with not a lot of middle management trying to keep continuity in check. The creator runs everything within the storyline. DMZ never had to worry how 100 Bullets was creating their story or how it fit in the bigger picture.

2. The artistic team only gets paid IF the book is profitable. Azarello only made money once Vertigo recouped their cost of printing the book and marketing costs.

3. Vertigo was designed to keep creators happy while keeping them in house under the main company. Azarello does 100 Bullets I'm exchange for writing a shitty Superman (let's be blunt, it was bad) run for a year with Jim Lee as artist.

Vertigo had some pretty good books. DMZ 100 Bullets, Y the Last Man, Vinyl Underground, Preacher, Sandman and a slews of others.
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COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
@OrbitCityComics very good examples.
Post 74 IP   flag post
Collector OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user
Just some food for thought, many of these low book runs open up investment opportunities.

People will chase books that have a 130k in sales, but have a dozen variant covers.

Some of these are good stories, and don't​ currently get the credit they deserve. The future may change all that.
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COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
A Marvel book called Black Panther & The Crew has gotten the axe after just 2 issues. Marvel will allow it to go 6 issues.

Article on the situation
clickable text
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Collector Themaxx35 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
Just some food for thought, many of these low book runs open up investment opportunities.

People will chase books that have a 130k in sales, but have a dozen variant covers.

Some of these are good stories, and don't​ currently get the credit they deserve. The future may change all that.


+1. Sometimes I like to see that some of the books on my pull list are under 20k or around 15k b/c I know there won't be countless high-grade books sitting in dollar bin 5 years from now. It makes me feel my collection is just a little bit more unique having those books in it, even if those lower runs don't turn out to be super valuable.
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Collector Grayspeedster private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themaxx35


+1. Sometimes I like to see that some of the books on my pull list are under 20k or around 15k b/c I know there won't be countless high-grade books sitting in dollar bin 5 years from now. It makes me feel my collection is just a little bit more unique having those books in it, even if those lower runs don't turn out to be super valuable.


This is how I do 90% of my current book buying. High print runs equal nearly no potential for increase in value and extremely high potential to depreciate.

I buy books I love 1st, but those tend to be G,S,B age! Most of what I want from the modern/current age is indie, obscure, low print run, Mature only. I support some titles from the big 2 but I find myself buying more of their #1s and only a few titles do I actually buy to read. Even then, I only buy books from creators I know or like, it does box me in a little but I don't end up with as many garbage books 😁

I dropped a lot of marvel when Lemire left them. Lol. I bought into the Young Animals at first but I had to drop them for more indie books, and all the new Snyder-Capullo Batman books coming out this summer. Dark Days I believe is the title and several subtitles will be released under it .
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