JSC X-Men Gold #1, opinions?2362
COLLECTOR | shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
What if the "premium" was a "discount"? IE the signor asks if it's for your personal collection, and if you say yes, you get a massive discount on the signature fee. I think that would be applauded; but logically the same exact thing as the opposite; just presented differently, no? Unless I'm mistaken, the "slab fee" is just the only way to know for sure if a book is getting flipped or not. There's no way to prove if its for someones personal collection, so they are doing what they can. @DocBrown; even if I didnt agree with all of it, that was an awesome rant lol |
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Post 77 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer It's no one's business what you do with your property. Let me say it again: it's no one's business what you do with your property. If I want to flip it, eat it, tear it up, burn it, list it for $10,000,000 on eBay...it's no one else's business. They have no right to ASK "is this for your personal collection?" in the first place. The whole "personal collection" argument is a moot one from the start. It's no one's business what you do with your property. Conversely, no one should use that argument for leverage. It's tacky, and should...should, now...have no bearing on any transaction. Can you imagine, buying a car at a dealership, and having them ask you what you plan on doing with it? Or a loaf of bread at the store? Or a comic book from a local comic shop? "Oh, you plan on getting that book signed and slabbed? Oh, well, that's different. We charge a premium for that. After all, you're going to make money, and we deserve a cut!" Think about it: a creator puts his blood, sweat, and tears into his work, which gets mass-produced and sold for a few dollars a copy. Why? Doesn't he deserve more? Couldn't he publish his own comics, and set them at whatever price he thinks his work is worth? Or does he trade his creative freedom for a measure of security at a "big company"...? The publisher makes money off of his work. That's not fair, is it? The printer makes money off of his work. That's not fair, is it? The distributor and retailer make money off of his work. That's not fair, is it? Of course it is. So why are they so concerned that someone might make money off of their signature? And do you see the flaw? All one needs to do is lie to a creator, and they get the so-called "discount" rate. How does that do anything but create ill-will between creators and fans? "Oh, yes, this is TOTALLY for my PERSONAL collection..wink, wink, nudge, nudge...I would NEVER sell it." That's bad business, all the way around. Either sign it, or don't sign it, charge for it or don't charge for it. Don't create "tiers" of charges, based on what someone MIGHT do with their personal property. You're inviting trouble doing that. |
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Post 78 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Ultimately, it's telling people "the only reason you get comics slabbed is to make money." Is that true....? It's not true for me, as far as signed books go. How about the rest of you...? |
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Post 79 IP flag post |
COLLECTOR | DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Not true for me. |
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Post 80 IP flag post |
Collector | KiloGraham private msg quote post Address this user | |
Nope. In fact I have some slabbed books that my family have been instructed to crack and have cremated along with me when I die to ensure no one else ever gets their grubby meat hooks on them. | ||
Post 81 IP flag post |
COLLECTOR | shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Yeah thats bs, agreed. |
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Post 82 IP flag post |
Collector | KiloGraham private msg quote post Address this user | |
@DocBrown you could almost say that it's more of a socialist type movement that these "creators" are doing, with more and more artists moving towards this "premium" signatory fee. As well I've seen more artists moving towards signing "agents" (Snyder, King, Miller to name a few). The artists are trying to make it so THEY control everything amongst themselves, even the perceived value of third party graded books that may or may not be sold on the after market. | ||
Post 83 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by KiloGraham Absolutely. These "exclusive" agents are leeches, who do nothing but suck money from fans. They are literal middle men. It's one thing for someone to do the heavy lifting of gathering books for others, waiting in line, taking care of books. It's another to say "well, Miller's $150 (and Frank gets $100, and we get $50, but don't tell anybody)" for doing...what, exactly? Standing there and collecting money? Max, who is Stan Lee's "agent." What is his purpose? His function? To make sure people pay as much as possible for Stan's signature, so he can get his "cut." And facilitators, like "Desert Wind Comics/Celestial Comics" are just as guilty. They encourage the fees, and butt in when someone looks like they MIGHT be slabbing, and all of a sudden, that "free signing" becomes "oh, it's for CGC? $20 a book." It's maddening. And Campbell is doing it, too. What it means is that I am prevented from collecting a run of McFarlane's Infinity Inc. in Sig Series, because it's simply not worth it. The books aren't worth the $50 "premium" and the the slab fee on top of that. They're not worth it. Yes, sure, ASM #300 is worth it. Absolutely. What about ASM #323? Not worth it. What about Hulk #337? Not worth it. What about Invasion #1 and #2? Not worth it. Because, you know, people only slab to sell. Right...? Screw you, greedy people. |
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Post 84 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
And ask yourself this: Who is BUYING these SS books...? Speculators? People ALSO trying to flip? NO! It's COLLECTORS! I just spent $225 on a Batman #406 9.8 SS. $225 for a book that I have probably 20-30 copies of that are 9.8 potential candidates. Why? Because I wanted to put together a run of Batman #400-#442...the QUINTESSENTIAL Batman years for me...in 9.8 SS. Are those books worth anything? Sure, some are. Most aren't worth squat. #431, anyone? But they are important to ME, and that's how I would like to fill out a collection. $225. For an effing Batman #effing 406. Oh, right...it happens to be signed by Miller. Madness. |
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Post 85 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Anyway....I've gotten a little soapy on this box...but it's related to Campbell's shenanigans with his print run fiddling. Sorry to hear that, folks. The only thing you can do is resist, and let the market pummel these guys. I know it's hard...those books are so very tempting. But if you give in, it will only get worse. |
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Post 86 IP flag post |
Collector* | Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Funny that you blame the people that help the creators get paid when you never bring up the people truly at fault. The people that deserve the true blame are the fans. If fanboys didn't line up to get person X's autograph on a book for Y amount then the handlers, the artist, the middle men, and facilitators wouldn't charge it. Oh, and the fans are guilty of paying an additional $10.00 to CGC for the "special" Stan Lee SS Yellow Label. It wouldn't exist if they weren't dumb enough to buy it. |
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Post 87 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater The "people that help the creators get paid"...? Who is the person who helps Walt and Louise Simonson "get paid"? Oh, right, they don't charge for their signatures. Who is the person who helps George Perez "get paid"? Oh, right, he doesn't charge for his signature. Who is the person who helps Adam Hughes "get paid"? Oh, right, the first 5 books are free, and then he charges the same price for more, regardless of where they ultimately end up. Did you know that Rob Liefeld used to be completely free, except for New Mutants #87, for which he charged $10? At least he was on the right track...he recognized the "valuable book" in his oeuvre. This isn't an entitlement rant. Creators are perfectly free to charge...or not charge...whatever they'd like. But don't charge a different price based on your perception about where the item might ultimately end up. Simple. I know it's terribly old fashioned, but many creators used to, and quite a few still do, sign items for free, because they appreciate the fact that someone supported their work...that is, they shelled out their money to buy what the creator was selling. Fans were getting things signed by their favorite creators decades before slabbing existed. Regardless...if a creator wants to charge, he/she should charge. Let the market decide if his/her sig is worth it. But don't charge a special fee because of where you think the book might go, especially on the flawed premise that your signature automatically adds value. |
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Post 88 IP flag post |
Collector* | Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Your response this time is about creators that don't charge. Why? I have no clue. I was replying to your post about creators that do charge and their handlers. Again, my point is that the only reason they can charge those amounts is because the fans will pay those prices and wait in line to do it. |
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Post 89 IP flag post |
Collector | VaComicsGuy private msg quote post Address this user | |
Devils advocate post. I'm not saying anyone here is right (or wrong). I'm just providing another point of view that might not have been discussed. My little guy (9 yrs old) and I were at a con a few months ago and as we got to an artists table, there was already someone walking up to him with about 10 or 12 books to get signed. The artist charged him $15 per sig. I'm not thrilled but artist is a fav of my son so I figure I'm on the hook for some $. The artist had a very nice conversation with us, signed 2 books and did a quick sketch for my son. I go to give him payment and he asks "what's that for?" I explained I was paying for the sigs. Artist tells us he NEVER charges a fan for a signature. I apologized and said I thought he charged the guy in front of us for the sigs. Artist said he did. Then says, "oh. yeah. I did charge him but he isn't a fan. He's a business man. I do fan stuff with fans and business stuff with business men." We had a short conversation about it and the artist said he sees flippers and "hiring" him to perform a task (signing an item to increase it's value). As such, he feels he is entitled to get paid for performing the task. --- Raising print runs after announcing a number sucks & isn't right. but an artist can charge or not for his signature and we are free to pay it or not. |
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Post 90 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater I'll explain further: you said "you blame the people that help the creators get paid", as if their "agents" are really helping them do something they aren't perfectly capable of doing themselves. They're called "middle men", and most of the time, they fill a role that is unnecessary. That's where the examples of the Simonsons and Perez and Hughes came in. The Simonsons and Perez (and others) don't charge, so there's no NEED for a middle man. Hughes charges the same rate for everyone, and handles all the payments himself (I suppose you could call his wife a middle man, but I won't quibble about that.) These people don't "help the creators get paid" for doing something that doesn't have much intrinsic value in and of itself...it's anywhere from 5-15 seconds of a creator's time, and if they do charge, they can almost always handle it themselves. The middle men, on the other hand, apply upward monetary pressure on these creators, because they have to justify their own job, creating a wedge between creators and fans. Quote: Originally Posted by TM I don't think you've red what I've written as carefully as you could. I'll say it again: a creator can charge whatever they want for their signature. You're arguing something that I am not. Yes, fans will pay those prices. The issue is the different prices they charge for the same signature, the same work, the same effort, mostly because of the erroneous belief that their signature always adds a premium to a book destined for a slab. It does not. |
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Post 91 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by VaComicsGuy But...you see how that's presumption on the part of the artist, right...? Who is the artist to decide who, and who is not, a fan? Who is the artist to presume that everything he signs increases its value? And...if the artist is looking at it as a business transaction, then doesn't the other party now have the right to negotiate terms to their satisfaction? That is, if I bring Mike Zeck a pile of Punisher Limited Series, all of which are destined for slabs, none of which will grade over 9.2, can I negotiate with him that hard, cold business reality? Let me ask everyone... ...are you not a fan if you get your books slabbed? Further... ...are you not a fan if you get multiple books slabbed, some to sell to pay for the ones you keep? This is where the slabbing companies and facilitators have completely and utterly failed. They don't explain these realities to creators, and you have this situation that we have now, where creators believe that A. anyone slabbing is doing it "for the money", and B. that their signature adds value to any book that is slabbed, above and beyond the price they're charging for it. The tens of thousands of books that don't are ample proof of that. Stan...well, Max...charges $120-$130 for Stan's sig. Everyone's desperately afraid that Stan is going to die...the man is, after all, 94 years old. So, they pony up the cash, and hope for the best...and quite often, end up losing. See how many hundreds of listings there are for books that people took a loss on. If it's business, after all... |
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Post 92 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
In other words...if I'm taking a risk that the grade on the book might come back less than I hope...why should the creator have no part in that risk? Publishers take risks with creators all the time...and they're paid less than they might otherwise make on their own because of it. They share the risk in that sense. They also share the reward, in the form of bonuses and incentives. But they NEVER make as much as they could make on their own, with their own property, because the publisher is the one taking the risk. So, fine...how about if there's a sliding scale...since it's business...and I pay a creator 10% of the gross sale price of the value his/her signature adds to the book? That is, if a 9.8 ASM #293 sells for $130, and an unsigned 9.8 sell for $90, then he is entitled to 10% of the difference...$4. I think that's fair. He charges $10 now. And, if his signature adds nothing, he/she gets nothing. And, if his signature can be shown to have sold for LESS than an unsigned copy, he pays ME 10% of the loss. That's business, after all. |
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Post 93 IP flag post |
Collector | poka private msg quote post Address this user | |
Let's just try and keep it simple. Creators charge what they want. If collectors/fans/flippers find that a reasonable price - they will buy - if not - they won't until price is reduced to a level they find reasonable |
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Post 94 IP flag post |
Collector | VaComicsGuy private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown I think the artist has every right to decide for himself who he considers to be HIS fan, establishing whatever criteria he chooses, whether we agree or not. Why is the artist presuming that his signature adds value? and, doesn't it add some kind of value? financial, sentimental or aesthetic If it doesn't why are we getting it? Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Every time I go to McDonalds, buy gas, clothes, food. . . I'm in a business transaction and I don't get to negotiate. When I go to Home Depot, I don't get to negotiate. I either accept the price or go to a competitor. Why is it different with artists? Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Maybe. Maybe not. I know slabbers that are fans and slabbers that are only in it for money. Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown But, can't the artists say WE don't understand their realities? Quote: Originally Posted by DocBrown Would that position work if we transferred it to something else? I have a contractor add a porch to my house. Think "he gets paid only if it adds value" is a solid position? Absolutely not. the contractor is providing a service that I requested. If it adds value, good for me. If it doesn't, that's not the contractors problem. Why should it be the artists problem? I think the disconnect that a lot of us (myself included) make is that this is a BUSINESS for some and a HOBBY for others. Yet, we slam artists that try to make a distinction when they are dealing with us. I guess, for me, it's about perspective. If the artist charges different prices for fans vs. flippers a lot of us assume the flipper is getting screwed. What if the artist is just cutting the fan a break and giving a discount? |
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Post 95 IP flag post |
Collector* | Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Puts upward monetary pressure on Frank Miller or Stan Lee to do something?...bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! |
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Post 96 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
It's very simple: What you do with your property is no one's business but yours. ...and.... No one would tolerate being charged a DIFFERENT PRICE (or charged for an otherwise free service) for the same work, the same effort, the same service, based on what the service provider (in this case, the creator) perceives what you are going to do with your property afterwards. As far as "the creator can charge whatever they want, to whomever they want, for whatever reason they want, and they can alter that at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all." ...mostly true. It is illegal to discriminate based on certain categories, such as "you're black, and I don't like blacks, so you get charged triple." That's clearly against the law. But... In effect, that's what the artist is doing: discriminating. "You're going to slab it, so you have to pay more." What business is it of the creator what you do with your property? None. And...MOST creators ARE reasonable people, and don't want to piss off fans unnecesarily. I mean, some creators, like John Byrne, live to do that, but I digress. Most creators...if this were explained to them...would say "oh, ok. I didn't know that." I had Len Wein's idiot musclehead "handler" tell me, to my face, that I was being charged a premium because I was, and I quote, "going to sell it on eBay." And...? What business is it of Len Wein's what someone does with their property? (I wasn't. In that instance, I was the witness. But the point still stands.) |
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Post 97 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha You clearly don't know Max. bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha |
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Post 98 IP flag post |
Collector* | Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown You clearly don't know Frank Miller. |
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Post 99 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater Never claimed I did. I was talking about middle men in general, not Miller's in particular. |
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Post 100 IP flag post |
Collector* | Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
You clearly don't know Todd McFarlane either. | ||
Post 101 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Speaking of Miller...his "agents" took complete advantage of the FEAR that Miller was on his deathbed in December/Jan 15/16. They charged $600 for his signature...and people paid it, because they were AFRAID they wouldn't get the opportunity again. That's rather predatory, isn't it...? "But the market supported it!" That's arguable. The fact is, however, Miller ended up signing hundreds, if not thousands, of books last year, and the price has come down substantially. Guess how much of that $600 Frank saw...? (Hint: it wasn't $600.) |
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Post 102 IP flag post |
Collector | DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Towmater Now THAT is nonsense. McFarlane charges NOTHING to sign books at conventions and other events he's at. I know, because I got his signature for nothing. I also know exactly how much HE is paid, and how much his "agents" (NYComics, Anastasia's Collectibles, and Max) are paid, for each CGC signature, because they've told me. McFarlane is yet another creator who thinks "slabbing" = "selling." And, so, the fans....of Infinity Inc, mind you, or Invasion, or Coyote, or Hulk, or most issues of Spawn, or most issues of Amazing Spiderman, or most issues of Spiderman...get shafted, because those books 1. aren't worth the "public price" ($50), and so 2. don't get signed. Your first McFarlane book was Invasion #1, and you loved every page of it? Sorry, that's $50 plus the slab fee. Because, as everyone knows, you're just going to flip it. Hand it over, flipper! |
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Post 103 IP flag post |
Collector* | Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
Todd McFarlane and Frank Miller's "middle people" don't put any pressure on them. They set the paths they take. No, your kidding me that they don't collect the full amount paid per signature or sketch. Really? You mean that managers get a percentage, and they have to pay taxes on their income? McFarlane charges if you want it witnessed for SS. That's his rule, Doc. You spend enough time over at CGC and there is a thread on that there. |
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Post 104 IP flag post |
Collector* | Towmater private msg quote post Address this user | |
AgaiQuote:Originally Posted by poka That's my point in response to all of RMA's wall of text too. |
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Post 105 IP flag post |
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