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DKIII Master Race #7 1:500 Jim Lee Variant2218

Collector Mef private msg quote post Address this user
Hey Bro, I heard you like variants so we made a variant of your variant so you can buy your variant while buying another variant.
Post 26 IP   flag post
Collector OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
There is a difference there though. My 90s comics that were "valuable" were printed by the millions. Some of these modern variants are actually rare. Not really apples to apples comparison.

I do see the point of keys vs non key variants where Demand may at some point die and prices fall. However, longterm, in the future when looking back at the 2010's the only valuable stuff will be these rare variants. Looking back at the 90s, there is almost nothing rare at all....


Very good points. Comic titles are often being printed to 1/10th of what they were during the 90s.

I believe many of these variants will drop in value once time has passed and the populace finally decides which stories were actually stories that were worth printing, and which were just money grabs.

I, also, predict that the crap stories with nice covers that will retain value are artists first appearances. This may be a new "key" measurement.

Example: J Scott Campbell's first variant may be valuable just because it's Campbell's first appearance as a cover artist.

I could very well be wrong on that part, but only time will tell.
Post 27 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
There is a difference there though. My 90s comics that were "valuable" were printed by the millions. Some of these modern variants are actually rare. Not really apples to apples comparison.

I do see the point of keys vs non key variants where Demand may at some point die and prices fall. However, longterm, in the future when looking back at the 2010's the only valuable stuff will be these rare variants. Looking back at the 90s, there is almost nothing rare at all....

(Except what hides in JWKyles longbox 😁)


I guess it depends on how we define rare. 1:50, 1:100, 1:500, or 1:what? Also, the pool size of people that will turn into collectors is smaller. Not as many people are exposed to comics today.
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COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Rare is relative to the number of humans who desire said object. There can be 12 copies of something, but if only only 2 humans desire it, supply has exceeded demand. It's always about supply and demand.
Post 29 IP   flag post
Collector OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
There is a difference there though. My 90s comics that were "valuable" were printed by the millions. Some of these modern variants are actually rare. Not really apples to apples comparison.

I do see the point of keys vs non key variants where Demand may at some point die and prices fall. However, longterm, in the future when looking back at the 2010's the only valuable stuff will be these rare variants. Looking back at the 90s, there is almost nothing rare at all....

(Except what hides in JWKyles longbox 😁)


I guess it depends on how we define rare. 1:50, 1:100, 1:500, or 1:what? Also, the pool size of people that will turn into collectors is smaller. Not as many people are exposed to comics today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
There is a difference there though. My 90s comics that were "valuable" were printed by the millions. Some of these modern variants are actually rare. Not really apples to apples comparison.

I do see the point of keys vs non key variants where Demand may at some point die and prices fall. However, longterm, in the future when looking back at the 2010's the only valuable stuff will be these rare variants. Looking back at the 90s, there is almost nothing rare at all....

(Except what hides in JWKyles longbox 😁)


I guess it depends on how we define rare. 1:50, 1:100, 1:500, or 1:what? Also, the pool size of people that will turn into collectors is smaller. Not as many people are exposed to comics today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
There is a difference there though. My 90s comics that were "valuable" were printed by the millions. Some of these modern variants are actually rare. Not really apples to apples comparison.

I do see the point of keys vs non key variants where Demand may at some point die and prices fall. However, longterm, in the future when looking back at the 2010's the only valuable stuff will be these rare variants. Looking back at the 90s, there is almost nothing rare at all....

(Except what hides in JWKyles longbox 😁)


I guess it depends on how we define rare. 1:50, 1:100, 1:500, or 1:what? Also, the pool size of people that will turn into collectors is smaller. Not as many people are exposed to comics today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
There is a difference there though. My 90s comics that were "valuable" were printed by the millions. Some of these modern variants are actually rare. Not really apples to apples comparison.

I do see the point of keys vs non key variants where Demand may at some point die and prices fall. However, longterm, in the future when looking back at the 2010's the only valuable stuff will be these rare variants. Looking back at the 90s, there is almost nothing rare at all....

(Except what hides in JWKyles longbox 😁)


I guess it depends on how we define rare. 1:50, 1:100, 1:500, or 1:what? Also, the pool size of people that will turn into collectors is smaller. Not as many people are exposed to comics today.


Very Rare is 1-10 copies.
Rare is 10 - 20 copies.
Scarce is 20 - 100 copies.

This is how Overstreet defines these terms.
Post 30 IP   flag post


Collector dpiercy private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
I think it's 12 issues, and it's not really that good.


I like it. The Kubert art is really great and I love the mini comics on the inside of every issue.
Post 31 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics


Very Rare is 1-10 copies.
Rare is 10 - 20 copies.
Scarce is 20 - 100 copies.

This is how Overstreet defines these terms.


If that is how everyone wants to define those terms then how many of the modern variants even fall into the scarce category? I don't collect modern variants but don't most have runs over 200+?
Post 32 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Most of the store exclusive variants have 3000 color copies, then 1500 black and white.

The retailer incentives depend on how much a retailer buys to get them so each one is different.

I personally don't prescribe to that Overstreet definition. If 10,000 people want something and only 3,000 exist, then it's scarce in my opinion.

Supply and demand.
Post 33 IP   flag post
Collector OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
Most of the store exclusive variants have 3000 color copies, then 1500 black and white.

The retailer incentives depend on how much a retailer buys to get them so each one is different.

I personally don't prescribe to that Overstreet definition. If 10,000 people want something and only 3,000 exist, then it's scarce in my opinion.

Supply and demand.


You bring up a fair point, but in view supply and demand as false belief.

When someone controls the supply, it's not a true supply. A store could print just as many as there is demand for. There not trying to predict demand, they're creating one, well they are trying to.
Post 34 IP   flag post
Collector KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user
10 years from now all these variant covers will be in the $1 bin at your local comic shop and some other new gimmic will be around. Maybe VR Comics or something else to extract all of our money. Variants weren't created to contribute to the hobby, its a scheme to extract more of your money. Why buy 1 cover when you can have all 20.
Post 35 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
You think books with 3,000 and less print runs will be in dollar bins? I applaud your pessimism sir.
Post 36 IP   flag post
Collector OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNampa
10 years from now all these variant covers will be in the $1 bin at your local comic shop and some other new gimmic will be around. Maybe VR Comics or something else to extract all of our money. Variants weren't created to contribute to the hobby, its a scheme to extract more of your money. Why buy 1 cover when you can have all 20.


Part of me thinks you're right. I've already seen some low run variants end up in $1 bins. Some have retained their value and others have exploded in value. I picked up a nice set of Frank Miller variant covers in the $1 bin that originally were selling for $50.
Post 37 IP   flag post
Collector KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
You think books with 3,000 and less print runs will be in dollar bins? I applaud your pessimism sir.
yes i do. Its artificial scarcity, you think it is rare because a corporation tells you so. How can you even trust that they are limited runs to 3000? There is no 3rd party verification. If they say something is 1:500 people will pay more, doesnt mean its really limited to that. If you need another example of this "limited" BS look at car companies. Limited edition versions of cars what a joke.
Post 38 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
1:25, 1:50, 1:100, etc. are retailer incentive numbers. Retailers must pre-order X number of regular books to get one copy of said incentive. Once orders are in the book goes to the printer and DC, Marvel, etc print what they require to fill orders. Now there are likely to be overruns to cover damaged copies, but they are not printing massive amounts of these books.
Post 39 IP   flag post
Collector OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
1:25, 1:50, 1:100, etc. are retailer incentive numbers. Retailers must pre-order X number of regular books to get one copy of said incentive. Once orders are in the book goes to the printer and DC, Marvel, etc print what they require to fill orders. Now there are likely to be overruns to cover damaged copies, but they are not printing massive amounts of these books.


Actually, they are printing massive quantities.

Vendors carry these books for the biggest clients and hand them out for their business (it's not like retailers have any other choice to buy from) to help build good will. The larger retailers also get invited to DC and Marvel offices to get a look ahead of what is coming down the pike, and they also hand out freebies.

These books aren't as crazy scarce as some think.
Post 40 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Speculation. And considering the previous posts, I'm sure anything more than 50 is "massive quantities."
Post 41 IP   flag post
Collector KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user
@DarthLego Not trying to disparage collectors for buying these. If they like the art and want to buy it to keep and read, no worries. But to the buyer that intends to resell down the road you are getting ripped off. Better to wait for the value to tank years down the road and buy it.
Post 42 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Was it a straight 1:500 print run or was it a 1:500 dealer incentive?

If dealer incentive you then need the number of shops as a secondary variable and even then its still a crapshoot guess. 238 would be the maximum if only 238 shops ordered any at all and equally, but its a good starting point.

Consider 1,000 shops ordering 50 each. There's almost half of the total run right there bringing that 238 possible copies down to 138.

70 sounds pretty close. Unless it was a straight dealer luck of the draw 1:500 print run, in that case @OrbitCityComics is correct...


That's not how it works. Those ratios have nothing to do with print run.

Really.
Post 43 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNampa
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
You think books with 3,000 and less print runs will be in dollar bins? I applaud your pessimism sir.
yes i do. Its artificial scarcity, you think it is rare because a corporation tells you so. How can you even trust that they are limited runs to 3000? There is no 3rd party verification. If they say something is 1:500 people will pay more, doesnt mean its really limited to that. If you need another example of this "limited" BS look at car companies. Limited edition versions of cars what a joke.


This is getting closer to the truth.

The "incentive ratios" are distribution numbers...that is, how the publishers will distribute them to retailers...not print numbers.

I understand how very appealing it is to say "Well, Comichron says the regular edition had a print run (which itself is erroneous) of 100,000 of Regular Comic #13, and there was a 1:100 incentive, so they must have printed 1,000 of that, right?"

It's "easy math."

But it's not correct.

Those ratios only tell you one thing: how many copies of the regular comic a retailer must order to receive a copy of the variant. 1:50? Must order 50 regulars to get 1 variant. 1:500? Must order 500 regulars to get 1 variant.

That's it. Anything beyond that has no meaning. Really.

Publishers do not release print run information for these books. Any speculation as to how many were printed is only that: speculation. And it bears no relation to the incentive ratio.
Post 44 IP   flag post
Collector KiloGraham private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Was it a straight 1:500 print run or was it a 1:500 dealer incentive?

If dealer incentive you then need the number of shops as a secondary variable and even then its still a crapshoot guess. 238 would be the maximum if only 238 shops ordered any at all and equally, but its a good starting point.

Consider 1,000 shops ordering 50 each. There's almost half of the total run right there bringing that 238 possible copies down to 138.

70 sounds pretty close. Unless it was a straight dealer luck of the draw 1:500 print run, in that case @OrbitCityComics is correct...


That's not how it works. Those ratios have nothing to do with print run.

Really.


Exactly. If every store ordered 99 copies, none of them would get a 1:100 incentive but the overall print run could be tens of thousands. The DKIII #1 sold almost 500,000 copies but that doesn't mean there are almost 5000 copies of the 1:500.
Post 45 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiloGraham
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Was it a straight 1:500 print run or was it a 1:500 dealer incentive?

If dealer incentive you then need the number of shops as a secondary variable and even then its still a crapshoot guess. 238 would be the maximum if only 238 shops ordered any at all and equally, but its a good starting point.

Consider 1,000 shops ordering 50 each. There's almost half of the total run right there bringing that 238 possible copies down to 138.

70 sounds pretty close. Unless it was a straight dealer luck of the draw 1:500 print run, in that case @OrbitCityComics is correct...


That's not how it works. Those ratios have nothing to do with print run.

Really.


Exactly. If every store ordered 99 copies, none of them would get a 1:100 incentive but the overall print run could be tens of thousands. The DKIII #1 sold almost 500,000 copies but that doesn't mean you there are almost 5000 copies of the 1:500.


Spot on correct (but I think you mean 1,000 of the 1:500.)
Post 46 IP   flag post
Collector KiloGraham private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiloGraham
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Was it a straight 1:500 print run or was it a 1:500 dealer incentive?

If dealer incentive you then need the number of shops as a secondary variable and even then its still a crapshoot guess. 238 would be the maximum if only 238 shops ordered any at all and equally, but its a good starting point.

Consider 1,000 shops ordering 50 each. There's almost half of the total run right there bringing that 238 possible copies down to 138.

70 sounds pretty close. Unless it was a straight dealer luck of the draw 1:500 print run, in that case @OrbitCityComics is correct...


That's not how it works. Those ratios have nothing to do with print run.

Really.


Exactly. If every store ordered 99 copies, none of them would get a 1:100 incentive but the overall print run could be tens of thousands. The DKIII #1 sold almost 500,000 copies but that doesn't mean you there are almost 5000 copies of the 1:500.


Spot on correct (but I think you mean 1,000 of the 1:500.)


Ya haha.

Me in math class....


Post 47 IP   flag post
Collector 1243782365 private msg quote post Address this user
They do NOT print books based on ratios, saying there are 75 or 200 and whatever copies is not accurate.
DC and Marvel DO NOT print variants based on order ratios.
Post 48 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmylinguini
They do NOT print books based on ratios, saying there are 75 or 200 and whatever copies is not accurate.
DC and Marvel DO NOT print variants based on order ratios.


Pasta-boy! Correct. They do NOT print books based on ratios. Also, incentive variants aren't that old...first appearing around 2004-2005 (if someone can give me a more accurate date, I'd appreciate it. The first real incentive I remember is Avengers #1 (2005).)

That's not to say there weren't books like 1 IN 4, or other such, going back to the mid-90's. There were. Books like Prophet #4 was one of the very first such variants, but they weren't an incentive...that is, they weren't designed to get retailers to order a specific amount in exchange for the variant.

They were simply shipped that way, and if they were advertised...most were not...it was as a special bonus, and not as a book retailers could order directly.

This is in contrast to the 50:50 variants that Marvel did on their #2 issues from the late 90's to the early 2000's. Those could be ordered, but they weren't incentives. Retailers could order as much as they wanted, of either cover, most of the time.
Post 49 IP   flag post
Collector 1243782365 private msg quote post Address this user
Ok I looked into it. Valiant Gold variants were given to retailers based on support of the Valiant Brand.

How that worked out I have no idea.

You can read more about that here but they are 100% variants given to retailers based on their orders, not a ratio based incentive variant. (although there was apparently an issue with the X-O Manowar #1 gold distribution)
Post 50 IP   flag post
Collector OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user
Take the Batman 608 Jim Lee variant. Originally it was believed that there were less than 200 copies out in the wild. By the end of last year CGC had graded 292 copies.
Post 51 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmylinguini
Ok I looked into it. Valiant Gold variants were given to retailers based on support of the Valiant Brand.

How that worked out I have no idea.

You can read more about that here but they are 100% variants given to retailers based on their orders, not a ratio based incentive variant. (although there was apparently an issue with the X-O Manowar #1 gold distribution)


That site you source is still repeating the false information that Comichron numbers = print run. They even contradict themselves in the same sentence.

Comichron reports SALES numbers, not PRINT numbers.

That said, however, it is my understanding, from sources at VEI, that Valiant is one of the few companies that prints incentive variants to order. That doesn't mean they release that information...they don't....but they do claim to print the incentives strictly to order.
Post 52 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
Take the Batman 608 Jim Lee variant. Originally it was believed that there were less than 200 copies out in the wild. By the end of last year CGC had graded 292 copies.


Couple of things...

First, where did the "less than 200 copies" number come from, and when did that number become "accepted"? (Not questioning that that "estimate" was thrown out a lot; I remember it, too. But was that number ever accurate?)

Second, the Batman #608 RRP (I assume that's what you're referring to?) wasn't a retailer incentive...it was given out at Diamond's annual retailer meeting that year.

Third, it is absolutely imperative that people using the census understand that the census doesn't represent actual copies...it represents potential copies.

That means: if there are 292 "grading events" (as they call it on the coin side) that doesn't necessarily mean that there were 292 unique copies graded...with resubmissions, Sig Series, and people not turning in labels (I have about 50 here to turn in), the more the census grows, the more the chances that the number only becomes potential, rather than actual. That is, at MOST there are 292 copies slabbed by CGC, but probably that number is more likely to be in the 200-260 range.

There's just no way to know. That doesn't mean the census is rendered useless...but it's not quite as accurate as the numbers suggest.
Post 53 IP   flag post
Collector OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
Take the Batman 608 Jim Lee variant. Originally it was believed that there were less than 200 copies out in the wild. By the end of last year CGC had graded 292 copies.


Couple of things...

First, where did the "less than 200 copies" number come from, and when did that number become "accepted"? (Not questioning that that "estimate" was thrown out a lot; I remember it, too. But was that number ever accurate?)

Second, the Batman #608 RRP (I assume that's what you're referring to?) wasn't a retailer incentive...it was given out at Diamond's annual retailer meeting that year.

Third, it is absolutely imperative that people using the census understand that the census doesn't represent actual copies...it represents potential copies.

That means: if there are 292 "grading events" (as they call it on the coin side) that doesn't necessarily mean that there were 292 unique copies graded...with resubmissions, Sig Series, and people not turning in labels (I have about 50 here to turn in), the more the census grows, the more the chances that the number only becomes potential, rather than actual. That is, at MOST there are 292 copies slabbed by CGC, but probably that number is more likely to be in the 200-260 range.

There's just no way to know. That doesn't mean the census is rendered useless...but it's not quite as accurate as the numbers suggest.


The less than 200 number had floated around for years, including to the point that it was printed in the now defunct Wizard magizine.

I understand your statement about the census, but I am also of the opinion that the census is pretty accurate on a title such as this where even a 9.4 can fetch around 2.5k on the market. I don't see people getting this book regraded in hopes of getting a better grade.
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Collector KiloGraham private msg quote post Address this user
The census also doesn't take into account slabs cracked and not reported back to be removed. So if you have a slab, crack it your self for ss and don't tell them it was graded prior, the same book would be listed twice wouldn't it?
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