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3rd Party Grading: Too Lenient vs. Too Tough2202

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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this. 80.14K	80.14K GAC private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	I’m writing this to get other perspectives or if we’re in agreement. I get the impression from collectors that being a tough grader is a desired trait. I personally disagree. My opinion is that being too tough a grader is as bad as being too lenient. I think the goal should always be to be as accurate as possible. Accuracy and consistency is what’s important not toughness. Some might say “I’d rather have the grader be too tough than too lenient”. For me, both are bad….accuracy to the grading spectrum is what’s important. This may sound obvious to some but I’ve definitely come across collectors that applaud graders for being too tough. I’m just putting this out there. Thanks!!
	8 years ago	Post 1 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 13.26K	13.26K shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	I applaud "sellers" that are too tough But yes graders should be accurate as possible. Although there's been plenty of debate on what "accurate" even is here; thus I appreciate consistency just as much.
	8 years ago	Post 2 • IP flag post

I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery. 60.14K	60.14K DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Grading has always swung between periods of tougher grading and periods of looser grading. If they ever reach a happy medium, they don't stay there long.
	8 years ago	Post 3 • IP flag post

I live in RI and Rhode Islanders eat chili with beans. 103.83K	103.83K esaravo private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	@GAC - I think it's being consistent so that you have a pretty good idea of what you are a getting. The more you submit to a particular company, the closer you should get to the grades that you predicted for those books prior to submitting. So you basically build up a trust with that company over time, and when you see a book graded by them, especially one where the difference between a 9.4 and a 9.6 can mean hundreds (or even thousands) of dollars, you believe the grade and trust that it's accurate. Now for raw books, I agree with shrewbeer. I want a seller that is a "tough" grader. How many books have you looked at or even purchased that were described as NM or 9.0+ that would be lucky to get a 6.5 or 7.0 if graded? When I sell a book, I always try to be as accurate as possible, but will err on the lower side for grading. For both raw and graded books however, you still need to use your eyes. I could show you pics of books from both companies that for one reason or another, don't have the overall "eye appeal" to me for the grade they were assigned. I'd rather have a bent corner or two and a few other "minor" imperfections and get a 6.5 than see the same grade on a book that has perfect corners, but a spine that looks like the cover was folded over a few times when the book was read. I hate that cracking along the entire length of the book, but have seen in some form or another on some books that have gotten 7.0's.
	8 years ago	Post 4 • IP flag post

I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this. 80.14K	80.14K GAC private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Quote: Originally Posted by shrewbeer I applaud "sellers" that are too tough But yes graders should be accurate as possible. Although there's been plenty of debate on what "accurate" even is here; thus I appreciate consistency just as much. I agree completely about sellers being tougher than lenient as a good thing. But the companies representing "the official stamp" of grading should strive for accuracy and consistency over being a tougher grader. Adherence to the grading measure is what's paramount not toughness. Thanks!!!
	8 years ago	Post 5 • IP flag post

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	When it comes to companies like CBCS, I believe they err on the side of caution. PGX is proof positive of what happens when you're too lenient with your grading. Overall, I give CBCS an A- in this department. Their grading, from what I have seen when compared to the competition, seems to quite accurate. I get the feeling that CGC is feeling the heat and is trying to compensate by giving out off grades in both directions.
	8 years ago	Post 6 • IP flag post

Collector 2.07K	2.07K Jerkfro private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I think consistency should be the desired goal. Baseball players dislike umpires who have a varied strike zone and contradict themselves by not being consistent from pitch to pitch. Whereas some umpires might consistently call a pitch that lands in a certain location a ball all the time or a strike all the time. At least there's a certain consistency there. Obviously, comic grading is not baseball but consistency is the key. Don't make the goalposts move constantly. Do your best to avoid those loose periods or tight periods as Watson mentions. Is this attainable? I don't know. We're dealing with human beings here after all and not robots.
	8 years ago	Post 7 • IP flag post

Collector 2.07K	2.07K Jerkfro private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	On another note, What does "accuracy" mean? I'll hang up and listen
	8 years ago	Post 8 • IP flag post

Collector 2.42K	2.42K Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jerkfro I think consistency should be the desired goal. Baseball players dislike umpires who have a varied strike zone and contradict themselves by not being consistent from pitch to pitch. Whereas some umpires might consistently call a pitch that lands in a certain location a ball all the time or a strike all the time. At least there's a certain consistency there. Obviously, comic grading is not baseball but consistency is the key. Don't make the goalposts move constantly. Do your best to avoid those loose periods or tight periods as Watson mentions. Is this attainable? I don't know. We're dealing with human beings here after all and not robots. I think consistency is their desired goal, just from the conversations I've had with people at both companies. I think the way the grading team is structured can go a long way towards that goal, though you're right, it'll never be 100% perfect.
	8 years ago	Post 9 • IP flag post

I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.

80.14K

GAC private msg quote post Address this user

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Quote:

Originally Posted by OrbitCityComics
When it comes to companies like CBCS, I believe they err on the side of caution. PGX is proof positive of what happens when you're too lenient with your grading.

I saw a book encapsulated by PGX with a "universal" label graded 6.0.....it was cracked open and sent to cgc and came back as Restored/Purple label graded 4.5 (trimmed on 3 sides). I don't even know what to say about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerkfro
On another note, What does "accuracy" mean?
I'll hang up and listen

Accuracy to me means adhering as closely as possible to your (grading company's) grading spectrum or measurement. CBCS appear to be industry leaders on this. CGC are on the tougher side and PGX are out to lunch.

8 years ago

I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this. 80.14K	80.14K GAC private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	I guess accuracy and consistency overlap a little for this discussion.
	8 years ago	Post 11 • IP flag post

Collector 2.07K	2.07K Jerkfro private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by GAC Quote: Originally Posted by Jerkfro On another note, What does "accuracy" mean? I'll hang up and listen Accuracy to me means adhering as closely as possible to your (grading company's) grading spectrum or measurement. CBCS appear to be industry leaders on this. CGC are on the tougher side and PGX are out to lunch. Who says that CBCS is the industry leader? Not trying to be a contrarian on this but what is this based on? I'd sincerely like to know. Why is CGC not the leader? Yes, I know why no one considers PGX to be the leader. That's pretty obvious
	8 years ago	Post 12 • IP flag post

I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this. 80.14K	80.14K GAC private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Jerkfro Quote: Originally Posted by GAC Quote: Originally Posted by Jerkfro On another note, What does "accuracy" mean? I'll hang up and listen Accuracy to me means adhering as closely as possible to your (grading company's) grading spectrum or measurement. CBCS appear to be industry leaders on this. CGC are on the tougher side and PGX are out to lunch. Who says that CBCS is the industry leader? Not trying to be a contrarian on this but what is this based on? I'd sincerely like to know. Why is CGC not the leader? Yes, I know why no one considers PGX to be the leader. That's pretty obvious I guess there's no empirical data to support what I'm saying but my experience seems to indicate that CGC grade on a harsher or tougher side. I guess I agree more with the grades given by CBCS over CGC. I think CBCS is more fair or accurate/consistent, to me that is. I'm sure there are others who would disagree.
	8 years ago	Post 13 • IP flag post

Collector 145	145 ThreeSeas private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	It’s too bad that there is not a published standard that everyone should use (or is there?) Maybe a guide starting out with the perfect 10.0 book and then how many defects until it is 9.9, 9.8 and so forth. Maybe something that states “spine damage to this extent can never get over a x.x grade”, “a color breaking crease can never get more than an x.x grade” “a missing piece of either the front or back covers (of a size qualified) cannot ever get more than an x.x grade”. I mean is it really that difficult to put together a panel of graders and come up with some kind of standard? Maybe some main poll where people can vote/decide on what they think a true 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, up to what a 10.0 comic should be. The old Good, Very Good, Fine, etc grades do not cut it any more. Count the flaws on a book… 1 -5 puts it in this x.x grade, 6 to 10 puts it in this x.x grade, etc. where every little flaw is accounted for, whether a ding, crease, or whatever. The grader, whether professional or amateur, could state “I counted this many flaws on this book”. I mean the flaws are either there or not there. A high res scan - put it up on a computer screen and then circle or note the flaws. This to me would be a good thing to have for grader’s notes – a nice photocopy with notes. I think when some books are graded too lenient maybe the flaws are seen up close, but the book must look better when held at arm’s length. Maybe the grader thinks “according to my findings, this should be a 6.0, but it sure looks like a 7.0 or better so I will give it a 6.5”. I can only speculate as I do not know. Some kind of standard would help this hobby I think. My disclaimer: I’m a hobbyist who has never sold a comic, nor do I own a slabbed book so if some of what I said above appears to be silly, it is because I do not have the same knowledge as most of you in regards to our fun hobby.
	8 years ago	Post 14 • IP flag post

Collector 4.84K	4.84K dpiercy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	When the going gets tough, the tough get going...that's all I'm going to say on the matter!
	8 years ago	Post 15 • IP flag post

Collector 3.72K	3.72K CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by GAC Quote: Originally Posted by Jerkfro Quote: Originally Posted by GAC Quote: Originally Posted by Jerkfro On another note, What does "accuracy" mean? I'll hang up and listen Accuracy to me means adhering as closely as possible to your (grading company's) grading spectrum or measurement. CBCS appear to be industry leaders on this. CGC are on the tougher side and PGX are out to lunch. Who says that CBCS is the industry leader? Not trying to be a contrarian on this but what is this based on? I'd sincerely like to know. Why is CGC not the leader? Yes, I know why no one considers PGX to be the leader. That's pretty obvious I guess there's no empirical data to support what I'm saying but my experience seems to indicate that CGC grade on a harsher or tougher side. I guess I agree more with the grades given by CBCS over CGC. I think CBCS is more fair or accurate/consistent, to me that is. I'm sure there are others who would disagree. I disagree that either CGC or CBCS is more "accurate" than the other. it'd be nice to have a thread where neither CBCS or CGC are labeled as better graders etc, than the other.
	8 years ago	Post 16 • IP flag post

Collector 3.72K	3.72K CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by ThreeSeas It’s too bad that there is not a published standard that everyone should use (or is there?) Maybe a guide starting out with the perfect 10.0 book and then how many defects until it is 9.9, 9.8 and so forth. Maybe something that states “spine damage to this extent can never get over a x.x grade”, “a color breaking crease can never get more than an x.x grade” “a missing piece of either the front or back covers (of a size qualified) cannot ever get more than an x.x grade”. I mean is it really that difficult to put together a panel of graders and come up with some kind of standard? Maybe some main poll where people can vote/decide on what they think a true 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, up to what a 10.0 comic should be. The old Good, Very Good, Fine, etc grades do not cut it any more. Count the flaws on a book… 1 -5 puts it in this x.x grade, 6 to 10 puts it in this x.x grade, etc. where every little flaw is accounted for, whether a ding, crease, or whatever. The grader, whether professional or amateur, could state “I counted this many flaws on this book”. I mean the flaws are either there or not there. A high res scan - put it up on a computer screen and then circle or note the flaws. This to me would be a good thing to have for grader’s notes – a nice photocopy with notes. I think when some books are graded too lenient maybe the flaws are seen up close, but the book must look better when held at arm’s length. Maybe the grader thinks “according to my findings, this should be a 6.0, but it sure looks like a 7.0 or better so I will give it a 6.5”. I can only speculate as I do not know. Some kind of standard would help this hobby I think. My disclaimer: I’m a hobbyist who has never sold a comic, nor do I own a slabbed book so if some of what I said above appears to be silly, it is because I do not have the same knowledge as most of you in regards to our fun hobby. Any grading guide is just that, a guide. Even if a grading guide existed, you have to be an experienced grader to be apply to the standards set forth in such a guide to each individual book....to be able to accurately assign a grade to a book.
	8 years ago	Post 17 • IP flag post

I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this. 80.14K	80.14K GAC private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by ThreeSeas It’s too bad that there is not a published standard that everyone should use (or is there?) Maybe a guide starting out with the perfect 10.0 book and then how many defects until it is 9.9, 9.8 and so forth. Maybe something that states “spine damage to this extent can never get over a x.x grade”, “a color breaking crease can never get more than an x.x grade” “a missing piece of either the front or back covers (of a size qualified) cannot ever get more than an x.x grade”. I mean is it really that difficult to put together a panel of graders and come up with some kind of standard? Maybe some main poll where people can vote/decide on what they think a true 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, up to what a 10.0 comic should be. The old Good, Very Good, Fine, etc grades do not cut it any more. Count the flaws on a book… 1 -5 puts it in this x.x grade, 6 to 10 puts it in this x.x grade, etc. where every little flaw is accounted for, whether a ding, crease, or whatever. The grader, whether professional or amateur, could state “I counted this many flaws on this book”. I mean the flaws are either there or not there. A high res scan - put it up on a computer screen and then circle or note the flaws. This to me would be a good thing to have for grader’s notes – a nice photocopy with notes. I think when some books are graded too lenient maybe the flaws are seen up close, but the book must look better when held at arm’s length. Maybe the grader thinks “according to my findings, this should be a 6.0, but it sure looks like a 7.0 or better so I will give it a 6.5”. I can only speculate as I do not know. Some kind of standard would help this hobby I think. My disclaimer: I’m a hobbyist who has never sold a comic, nor do I own a slabbed book so if some of what I said above appears to be silly, it is because I do not have the same knowledge as most of you in regards to our fun hobby. A Standard would be ideal and I believe its coming. It has to. The collectors want it. Technology will have to be there to allow for a standard. The human element will have to be removed from the equation for there to be a true Standard. It'll happen eventually.
	8 years ago	Post 18 • IP flag post

I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for. 30.37K	30.37K drchaos private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	One thing I have observed is that CGC got much tougher on pressable defects (finger bends, etc.) after they launched their pressing service CCS. My guess is that this sudden change in grading standards is not a coincidence but an effort to push customers to pay for pressing in addition to grading.
	8 years ago	Post 19 • IP flag post

Collector 127	127 Stronguy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Consistency is the biggest factor. There are dealers with whom I disagree about the impact of certain defects, but they are consistent in their grading so I know what to expect. It's when the results change because you want to one-up the competition that things start getting screwed up.
	8 years ago	Post 20 • IP flag post

COLLECTOR 20.52K	20.52K DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 1
	Uh, did I just step into a parallel universe where the Overstreet Grading Guide doesn't exist anymore?
	8 years ago	Post 21 • IP flag post

I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this. 80.14K	80.14K GAC private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego Uh, did I just step into a parallel universe where the Overstreet Grading Guide doesn't exist anymore? Is that the template that all the 3rd party graders are using?
	8 years ago	Post 22 • IP flag post

Collector 127	127 Stronguy private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by GAC Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego Uh, did I just step into a parallel universe where the Overstreet Grading Guide doesn't exist anymore? Is that the template that all the 3rd party graders are using? Template? Yes, template is a good description of it, but as with all templates it leaves a lot of latitude.
	8 years ago	Post 23 • IP flag post

I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this. 80.14K	80.14K GAC private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by Stronguy Quote: Originally Posted by GAC Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego Uh, did I just step into a parallel universe where the Overstreet Grading Guide doesn't exist anymore? Is that the template that all the 3rd party graders are using? Template? Yes, template is a good description of it, but as with all templates it leaves a lot of latitude. And that is the crux of the issue isn't it? You can have templates available all day long but as long as there's latitude there'll be disagreements. For as long as human beings are grading and assigning grades this debate will go on.
	8 years ago	Post 24 • IP flag post

Collector 1.86K	1.86K jrs private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos One thing I have observed is that CGC got much tougher on pressable defects (finger bends, etc.) after they launched their pressing service CCS. My guess is that this sudden change in grading standards is not a coincidence but an effort to push customers to pay for pressing in addition to grading. This could also be because pressing has become so prevalent. Perhaps previously, such defects were accepted because it was not common to remediate them. With the availability of pressing services, those defects became more easily and readily addressed. Of couse, this is just speculation.
	8 years ago	Post 25 • IP flag post

Collector 2.07K	2.07K Jerkfro private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 3
	Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego Uh, did I just step into a parallel universe where the Overstreet Grading Guide doesn't exist anymore? Which version of the Overstreet Grading Guide? There are several
	8 years ago	Post 26 • IP flag post

Collector 1.48K	1.48K OrbitCityComics private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by jrs Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos One thing I have observed is that CGC got much tougher on pressable defects (finger bends, etc.) after they launched their pressing service CCS. My guess is that this sudden change in grading standards is not a coincidence but an effort to push customers to pay for pressing in addition to grading. This could also be because pressing has become so prevalent. Perhaps previously, such defects were accepted because it was not common to remediate them. With the availability of pressing services, those defects became more easily and readily addressed. Of couse, this is just speculation. Not to mention that pressing has become an acceptable standard within the hobby. Not too long ago, pressing a book was considered to be a form of restoration.
	8 years ago	Post 27 • IP flag post

I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this. 80.14K	80.14K GAC private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Quote: Originally Posted by jrs Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos One thing I have observed is that CGC got much tougher on pressable defects (finger bends, etc.) after they launched their pressing service CCS. My guess is that this sudden change in grading standards is not a coincidence but an effort to push customers to pay for pressing in addition to grading. This could also be because pressing has become so prevalent. Perhaps previously, such defects were accepted because it was not common to remediate them. With the availability of pressing services, those defects became more easily and readily addressed. Of couse, this is just speculation. Good observation and probably correct!
	8 years ago	Post 28 • IP flag post

Collector 1.34K	1.34K VillageIdiot private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 0
	Does this query count when considering the grading of Captain Canuck comic books?
	8 years ago	Post 29 • IP flag post

Collector 2.07K	2.07K Jerkfro private msg quote post Address this user	plus 1 plus 1 plus 1 4
	Quote: Originally Posted by GAC Quote: Originally Posted by ThreeSeas It’s too bad that there is not a published standard that everyone should use (or is there?) Maybe a guide starting out with the perfect 10.0 book and then how many defects until it is 9.9, 9.8 and so forth. Maybe something that states “spine damage to this extent can never get over a x.x grade”, “a color breaking crease can never get more than an x.x grade” “a missing piece of either the front or back covers (of a size qualified) cannot ever get more than an x.x grade”. I mean is it really that difficult to put together a panel of graders and come up with some kind of standard? Maybe some main poll where people can vote/decide on what they think a true 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, up to what a 10.0 comic should be. The old Good, Very Good, Fine, etc grades do not cut it any more. Count the flaws on a book… 1 -5 puts it in this x.x grade, 6 to 10 puts it in this x.x grade, etc. where every little flaw is accounted for, whether a ding, crease, or whatever. The grader, whether professional or amateur, could state “I counted this many flaws on this book”. I mean the flaws are either there or not there. A high res scan - put it up on a computer screen and then circle or note the flaws. This to me would be a good thing to have for grader’s notes – a nice photocopy with notes. I think when some books are graded too lenient maybe the flaws are seen up close, but the book must look better when held at arm’s length. Maybe the grader thinks “according to my findings, this should be a 6.0, but it sure looks like a 7.0 or better so I will give it a 6.5”. I can only speculate as I do not know. Some kind of standard would help this hobby I think. My disclaimer: I’m a hobbyist who has never sold a comic, nor do I own a slabbed book so if some of what I said above appears to be silly, it is because I do not have the same knowledge as most of you in regards to our fun hobby. A Standard would be ideal and I believe its coming. It has to. The collectors want it. Technology will have to be there to allow for a standard. The human element will have to be removed from the equation for there to be a true Standard. It'll happen eventually. The human element will never be removed. We're not talking robots who can build cars. How would comics be graded and slabbed without humans involved?
	8 years ago	Post 30 • IP flag post

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