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Comics Copper Age

Batman 457 2nd Prnt UPC : SINGLE GRADED COPY2196

Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
The Holy Grail of Copper THRU Modern Batman books.

This is the white whale of Modern Age Batman books.

Omly 11 copies known to exist...this CGC 8.5 is the LONE graded copy in existance.

By sheer scarcity alone, this book outweighs them all...blowing the Hush RRP out of the water.

FYI, eBay is running a 10% off eBay Bucks promo, the coupon ends at midnight tonight....check your eBay messages to activate the 10% Off eBay Bucks Coupon Code.


(This is not my book, nor is it my listing.)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272565776771


Post 1 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
Given the last thread on this... um, why?
Post 2 IP   flag post
Collector KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user
Looked at that Comic...
Post 3 IP   flag post
Collector TruckJohnson private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Given the last thread on this... um, why?


LMAO!
Post 4 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruckJohnson
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Given the last thread on this... um, why?


LMAO!


Post 5 IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Given the last thread on this... um, why?


It is a very tough book to find.

That is why.

Plain and simple.
Post 6 IP   flag post
Collector MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
Quote:
Originally Posted by TruckJohnson
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
Given the last thread on this... um, why?


LMAO!



Oh thank God!
That's his thumb
Post 7 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR JWKyle private msg quote post Address this user
Ok let's make that 12 copies


Post 8 IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWKyle
Ok let's make that 12 copies




Where and when was this book purchased?

I am more inclined to think this copy has already been accounted for.I have had this book saved in a Google watch/notification search and in my eBay Following list for the past few months.
Post 9 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR JWKyle private msg quote post Address this user
It was in my Batman box not sure where it came from but I will say I sure didn't pay any type of premium for it.Hell I didn't even know my copy was one until you brought it up. It also says second print on the inside.
Post 10 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
I'd be willing to bet there's at least a few thousand sitting in random longboxes across the country, and they'll surface once word gets out.

Sounds like now's the time to sell @JWKyle 👍🏻
Post 11 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR JWKyle private msg quote post Address this user
I still have my 2 day modern from my bronze membership maybe I should send it in and see if it will make the gallery
Post 12 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
I'd be willing to bet there's at least a few thousand sitting in random longboxes across the country, and they'll surface once word gets out.

Sounds like now's the time to sell @JWKyle 👍🏻


I'll take that bet. How much? I'd be willing to lay $1,000 on it. You up for it?
Post 13 IP   flag post
Collector Johnnylray private msg quote post Address this user
Reminds me of a similar story in the baseball card world...Back in the 1980's , the late Baseball card buyer/dealer Al Rosen (Mr. Mint-as he was called) helped contribute to various Baseball card price guides. The man had millions of cards. Whichever card/s he had too much of- he would list them as "Rare- and hard to find" in the guides...then he would turn around and sell through the magazines and newspapers for HUGE dollars..and never ran out. True story...Sounds like this comic story.
Post 14 IP   flag post
Collector MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user
I wasn't aware of this book. I new nothing of it. I'd love to learn about it's situation here while we're on the subject.
Post 15 IP   flag post
Collector Watcher private msg quote post Address this user
@jwkyle...man...I love that you just pulled this book out of a box ...frikin awesome brother.
Post 16 IP   flag post
Collector DertyComix private msg quote post Address this user

@JWKyle sounds about right... mic drop
Post 17 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR_SigS
I wasn't aware of this book. I new nothing of it. I'd love to learn about it's situation here while we're on the subject.

http://comicbookinvest.com/2015/07/15/the-six-variants-of-batman-457/
Post 18 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnylray
Reminds me of a similar story in the baseball card world...Back in the 1980's , the late Baseball card buyer/dealer Al Rosen (Mr. Mint-as he was called) helped contribute to various Baseball card price guides. The man had millions of cards. Whichever card/s he had too much of- he would list them as "Rare- and hard to find" in the guides...then he would turn around and sell through the magazines and newspapers for HUGE dollars..and never ran out. True story...Sounds like this comic story.


One of the neatest parts of comic collecting from the 90's is that, in all its excess, it managed to produce...through manufacture or attrition....some extremely rare items.

Books where only a handful were made, or where many were made, and then subsequently destroyed.

Like the Maxx #3 Black Ashcan, of which only 4 examples have been confirmed to still exist, out of an original print run of 50, or Sandman #75 second printing, which was made, but not needed, and most of which were subsequently destroyed.

This is one of those books. It wasn't even confirmed to exist until a couple of years ago. Why they made it, no one knows. It's certainly possible that, like the Spiderman #1 Gold that preceded it by several months, this book was requested by a large retailer, maybe Walmart, and produced (and subsequently sold) exclusively for and by them.

This book was a very hot book when it came out, and sold out almost immediately across the country. By the end of the year, it was a $20 book. A second printing followed closely. But the second printing UPC was unknown to most.

Not that I agree with the hyperbole...far from it...but this is not a book that exists in long boxes in any significant number. If there are any quantities left...and that's very unlikely...they would be in the storage for whomever they were made for, and that's terribly unlikely.

There are probably 100-500 copies scattered around the world, based on the amount of copies known to exist at this point.

These exist in other fields, as well. For example, the 1822 $5 half eagle was minted to the tune of 17,796 pieces...yet, almost every one of them was melted, and only 3 survive...2 of which are in the Smithsonian, and all of which have been known since the 1800's (meaning a new example hasn't surfaced in 130+ years.)
Post 19 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user
I see two in the ebay sold search, one at 150bin and a full set of all variants 454 auction. Asking 2k for an 8.5 seems steep 🤢

I'll def keep a lookout anyways at the next few cons.

@DocBrown I completely see your point(s). However I think this rare book isn't known enough yet for us to conclude that it's actually rare yet. What percentage of of collectors know to look for it? Id say very few. What percentage of store boxes and con/flea boxes have been combed through for it so far? Again I'd say just a few percent

and no to the bet 😏, I only gamble with those I know and trust. Tx for the offer lol 👍🏻
Post 20 IP   flag post
Collector MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user
Thanks Doc and Darth (I'll read the link in a bit).
Post 21 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLego
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR_SigS
I wasn't aware of this book. I new nothing of it. I'd love to learn about it's situation here while we're on the subject.

http://comicbookinvest.com/2015/07/15/the-six-variants-of-batman-457/


There's a great deal of hyperbole there, as well.

It would be nice if these things were approached in a scholarly fashion, rather in the breathless terms better reserved for period romance novels.

Also, it includes the PURE FICTION that Chuck Rozanski simply made up, which gets repeated ad nauseum...that the newsstand market was only 15% of the Direct market in 1990.

This is false.

As an unscientific experiment, there are currently 42 copies of Superman #50 for sale on eBay right now. Of those 42, 12, or 28%, are newsstand copies. As unscientific as that is, that number is nearly double Chuck's made up number.

The newsstand was still very much alive in 1990, though in decline, despite what Rozanski claims. His numbers are made up, pulled out of thin air, based on his own estimations...and Rozanski didn't deal in newsstand comics at this point. Someone who haunted the newsstands during this time ( hi! ) would probably have a clearer idea of what was actually going on than he did.

Ugh.

To make matters even worse, they screw up the data analysis by saying this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBSI
There are several factors that make the Second Print Newsstand Edition so rare: First is the rarity of Newsstand Editions overall in 1990. Only 15% of all books were Newsstand Editions at the time due to a shift in distribution to direct sales. That 15% gets smaller when you consider that unsold books would have the first cover ripped off and returned to the publisher.


No. Those numbers...that Chuck pulled out of thin air, remember...are SALES numbers...copies SOLD...not copies PRINTED. So, even if Chuck's 15% figure was real...and it's not...those are copies that were NOT STRIPPED and sent for credit. Misinformation piled on misinformation begets totally ridiculous claims passed off as fact.

There is SO much misinformation out there, folks. Be careful.
Post 22 IP   flag post
Collector MR_SigS private msg quote post Address this user
Thanks again Doc. Knowing of your pursuit of the truth and facts, that was very informative. Of course I will still read the link, but it's good to know this going in.
Post 23 IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
I see two in the ebay sold search, one at 150bin and a full set of all variants 454 auction. Asking 2k for an 8.5 seems steep 🤢

I'll def keep a lookout anyways at the next few cons.

@DocBrown I completely see your point(s). However I think this rare book isn't known enough yet for us to conclude that it's actually rare yet. What percentage of of collectors know to look for it? Id say very few. What percentage of store boxes and con/flea boxes have been combed through for it so far? Again I'd say just a few percent

and no to the bet 😏, I only gamble with those I know and trust. Tx for the offer lol 👍🏻


The copy that was bought via buy it now is the same copy that has been slabbed at 8.5.

The set of the 5 editions of this book sold in auction for under $500.The 2nd print newsstand is where the value was in that lot, the others are all over the place.

Do a search under Batman 457, comoleted auctions.

You'll see HUBDREDS if not thousands of the other 4 editions listed.

And a grand total of TWO copies of the 2nd print newsstand.
Post 24 IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
*completed
*HUNDREDS
Post 25 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user

Post 26 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR JWKyle private msg quote post Address this user
I just posted it on Dr Carls thread on the other boards. CopperAgeKids I have no clue where and when this book was bought it was probably picked up to fill a hole in my Batman run. I'm a 100% percent sure it hasn't been accounted for someone would have had to break in my house to get a picture of it.
Post 27 IP   flag post
Collector Logan510 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperAgeKids
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer
I see two in the ebay sold search, one at 150bin and a full set of all variants 454 auction. Asking 2k for an 8.5 seems steep 🤢

I'll def keep a lookout anyways at the next few cons.

@DocBrown I completely see your point(s). However I think this rare book isn't known enough yet for us to conclude that it's actually rare yet. What percentage of of collectors know to look for it? Id say very few. What percentage of store boxes and con/flea boxes have been combed through for it so far? Again I'd say just a few percent

and no to the bet 😏, I only gamble with those I know and trust. Tx for the offer lol 👍🏻


The copy that was bought via buy it now is the same copy that has been slabbed at 8.5.

The set of the 5 editions of this book sold in auction for under $500.The 2nd print newsstand is where the value was in that lot, the others are all over the place.

Do a search under Batman 457, comoleted auctions.

You'll see HUBDREDS if not thousands of the other 4 editions listed.

And a grand total of TWO copies of the 2nd print newsstand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MR_SigS
Thanks again Doc. Knowing of your pursuit of the truth and facts, that was very informative. Of course I will still read the link, but it's good to know this going in.


Aside from anecdotal evidence and speculation, why should we take his word for it over the word of someone in the comic book retail business for decades?

I'm not saying this book isn't rare or difficult to find, but I would need a little more hard data and less conjecture and speculation.
Post 28 IP   flag post
Collector DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer


@DocBrown I completely see your point(s). However I think this rare book isn't known enough yet for us to conclude that it's actually rare yet. What percentage of of collectors know to look for it? Id say very few. What percentage of store boxes and con/flea boxes have been combed through for it so far? Again I'd say just a few percent

and no to the bet 😏, I only gamble with those I know and trust. Tx for the offer lol 👍🏻


You're ignoring, or are not aware of, several facts surrounding this book:

1. It was a "very hot book" at the time of its publication. The other 5 "variants", as they are now known, were also known very shortly after the book was published. People who have paid attention to this issue were aware of the "000" copies from the time of publication.

2. This book would NOT have been produced for the newsstand, but perhaps for a specific retailer...perhaps Walmart...which had sold out of the first print newsstand copies it received. There was no mechanism in place for newsstand sales (distributed through Curtis Circulation) to order second printings at that time.

3. This book may not have been produced at the same time as the Direct second printing. It *probably* was, but there's no way of knowing for sure. DC had been reprinting their books for quite some time at this point, to include in their "multi-packs", which were distributed not to newsstands, but to stores like Walmart, K-Mart, JCPenney, and the like. However, since the amount of "collector packs" is generally known, and this book hasn't been found in any of them, they can generally be ruled out as a source.

4. As pointed out before, people have been looking for copies of this book for a very long time. The issue isn't a rare one, and has always been a rather popular one, so it's not like an obscure independent book that does hide in collections and dealers' stock. Despite very strong sales, going back a few YEARS, this book hasn't been "flushed out" in any great numbers. It's Batman, not Strawberry Shortcake.

5. However...while the issue was a hot one at release, it cooled down dramatically, and today can generally be found in dollar bins....meaning multiple copies would more likely have been tossed in the great purges of the late 90's, and any second print newsstands hiding among them had a greater chance of being included.

6. This book never went to comic shops in the first place, so any copies that subsequently made their way there would have been accidental, and, because it was a second printing, and later printings were considered worse than trash for a very long time, the odds are greater that this issue would have been tossed in the trash.

In other words: the book never had normal distribution to begin with, and, much like Spiderman #1 gold UPC, this isn't going to be a book that gets "overlooked" in any great numbers, because the numbers were never out there to begin with.

When you understand initial and subsequent distribution patterns and the market of the early 90's, you'll understand why that's the case. Therefore, because of all those facts, this isn't a case of "well, they're just hiding in people's collections."

No.

Like Sandman #75, this was a special case, and didn't follow the rules.

Kirk Ticknor, for example, has been looking for these books for a decade, maybe two.

Care to guess how many copies of Batman #457 I have...? Probably not, but the answer is "a lot", and I have never run across a copy, even accidentally, in over 26 years.

I HAVE run across several copies of Sandman #75 2nd, accidentally.

As far as the bet...sure, no problem. I'd be a fool for offering such a bet, too.
Post 29 IP   flag post
Collector CopperAgeKids private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrewbeer


@DocBrown I completely see your point(s). However I think this rare book isn't known enough yet for us to conclude that it's actually rare yet. What percentage of of collectors know to look for it? Id say very few. What percentage of store boxes and con/flea boxes have been combed through for it so far? Again I'd say just a few percent

and no to the bet 😏, I only gamble with those I know and trust. Tx for the offer lol 👍🏻


You're ignoring, or are not aware of, several facts surrounding this book:

1. It was a "very hot book" at the time of its publication. The other 5 "variants", as they are now known, were also known very shortly after the book was published. People who have paid attention to this issue were aware of the "000" copies from the time of publication.

2. This book would NOT have been produced for the newsstand, but perhaps for a specific retailer...perhaps Walmart...which had sold out of the first print newsstand copies it received. There was no mechanism in place for newsstand sales (distributed through Curtis Circulation) to order second printings at that time.

3. This book may not have been produced at the same time as the Direct second printing. It *probably* was, but there's no way of knowing for sure. DC had been reprinting their books for quite some time at this point, to include in their "multi-packs", which were distributed not to newsstands, but to stores like Walmart, K-Mart, JCPenney, and the like. However, since the amount of "collector packs" is generally known, and this book hasn't been found in any of them, they can generally be ruled out as a source.

4. As pointed out before, people have been looking for copies of this book for a very long time. The issue isn't a rare one, and has always been a rather popular one, so it's not like an obscure independent book that does hide in collections and dealers' stock. Despite very strong sales, going back a few YEARS, this book hasn't been "flushed out" in any great numbers. It's Batman, not Strawberry Shortcake.

5. However...while the issue was a hot one at release, it cooled down dramatically, and today can generally be found in dollar bins....meaning multiple copies would more likely have been tossed in the great purges of the late 90's, and any second print newsstands hiding among them had a greater chance of being included.

6. This book never went to comic shops in the first place, so any copies that subsequently made their way there would have been accidental, and, because it was a second printing, and later printings were considered worse than trash for a very long time, the odds are greater that this issue would have been tossed in the trash.

In other words: the book never had normal distribution to begin with, and, much like Spiderman #1 gold UPC, this isn't going to be a book that gets "overlooked" in any great numbers, because the numbers were never out there to begin with.

When you understand initial and subsequent distribution patterns and the market of the early 90's, you'll understand why that's the case. Therefore, because of all those facts, this isn't a case of "well, they're just hiding in people's collections."

No.

Like Sandman #75, this was a special case, and didn't follow the rules.

Kirk Ticknor, for example, has been looking for these books for a decade, maybe two.

Care to guess how many copies of Batman #457 I have...? Probably not, but the answer is "a lot", and I have never run across a copy, even accidentally, in over 26 years.

I HAVE run across several copies of Sandman #75 2nd, accidentally.

As far as the bet...sure, no problem. I'd be a fool for offering such a bet, too.


Excellent post.
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