CGC knowingly damaging books?20972
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MRmintastic private msg quote post Address this user | |
| As discussed at length, the warping of the wells is a big problem. There are also a lot of books that move and slide when they are shipped and incur damage on the edges or corners. It amazes me how they tried to improve, but only made things worse. They damaged a Golden Age book of mine, and have a mediocre mindset when it comes to customer response. I think they are realizing that a lot of customers are going elsewhere, so they are scrambling and trying to be more responsive, but the damage to their reputation has been done. |
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 I wish I had a title.
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ComicNinja0215 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @MRmintastic this!!! And welcome to the forum. | ||
| Post 952 • IP flag post | ||
 I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers).Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Can you imagine if CGC made something very complicated.... like boxes of #2 Pencils? They'd be swapped out by #4 pencils, curved like a warped 2X4,... IF they made it to department stores in one pencil piece. Erasers would fall off on 1st use. But we could get something other than the traditional yellow color if one would like for an additional charge. I don't think that top tier President Nelson would have them in business for more than a few months. But their CGC pencil forum would be "nice to read". So at least that's good. |
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| Post 953 • IP flag post | ||
 I'd like to say I still turned out alright, but that would be a lie.
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flanders private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Nuffsaid111 good analogy, how do you eff up something so simple? Cgc customers remind me of Mercedes Benz owners with their snooty attitudes that continue to buy an overpriced product that is highly unreliable and constantly in the shop. | ||
| Post 954 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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Jgwalters100 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by flanders Tesla is the new BMW i think. At least they are electric but I can't stand how people drive them. They think every start at a light is a race. |
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| Post 955 • IP flag post | ||
 You do know that the new guy brings the donuts, right?
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DWeeB1967 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Beaumonts I'm primarily a DC guy myself. There are a few of us on this forum. With that said, most of my Golden/Atomic books tend to be non-DC and non-Timely... mostly ACG Truevision books and EC. I'd love to find a mid to high grade Canadian copy of Two-Fisted Tales #35. I have a copy now but it's a lower grade. |
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 I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by flanders I had one Mercedes. Worst. Car. Ever. Never again.  |
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| Post 957 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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Drogio private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by MRmintastic The whole newton ring debacle was annoying. Not acknowledging what everyone could clearly see was the beginning of their gaslighting. So I waited until that appeared to be resolved before sending them more books. Then the blemished cases started showing up. And this was worse than oil slicks because the scuffs were on the inside and it made it look like the book was damaged. So I would keep sending slabs back until they came back “clean”…a few I had to send back twice, and even circled in sharpie on the outside of the case all the blemishes because they sent me the same slab back. But then in the last round of returned slabs about a year ago I noticed the cases changed…they seemed “tighter” around the book…and I noticed a few light spine bends that were definitely not present on the book the first time it came back…as if it was too tight a fit and stressing the spine….still had a 9.8 label. At the time I didn’t think too much about it…and I had $150 in credit to use…but then the debacles really began early this year and I just decided to use it up and be done with them. Ironically I sent in books I expected to get 8.5/9.0 and they came back 9.4s. Riddled with spine ticks (which is why I was expecting 9.0 max../they didn’t damage it) so they lost my confidence in their ability to grade). And within a few weeks the Banana bend scandal broke…so that was the last straw. Now there was a high risk my books would not be cared for, and damaged. I have sent many books into CBCS over the years and the only problem I ever had was a label misspelling. And I think from a quality of grading/case perspective they’ve only improved. I think it will be a very very long time before I send a book into CGC again, if ever. When I look at slabs online I immediately look for the first 2 digits…anything 44/45 is out. 43 I only will buy in person, as that’s about when it all fell apart. If given the choice I’d buy a cbcs slab over cgc any day of the week…but it’s rare I see them for the books/grades I’m interested in, though. Which is unfortunate. I wish the larger community would come around… |
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by flanders Hmmm… |
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I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I know there has been talk about vintage books and the banana curve. I received my X-Men 22 Northland copy in the mail yesterday. I was concerned about a banana bend since it was a 41XXXXXXXX book. Unfortunately, it has a bend. It might be hard to see in the photos, but it is quite pronounced. I may be taking advantage of CBCS's $5 discount after all. In the top picture, on the left hand side. you can see the inner well beginning its arc upwards to outer case. In the middle photo, I flipped it so you can see the center of the book curving down to meet the outer case. The last photo is middle photo flipped for better reference.    |
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| Post 960 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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karn9 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I am thinking about purchasing a variant with a CGC holder new, and am wondering if they have fixed their issue? Or should I buy it cheaper and use the $5 off code instead... | ||
| Post 961 • IP flag post | ||
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I'd like to say I still turned out alright, but that would be a lie.
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flanders private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I've asked this before, but why hasn't anyone started a class action lawsuit? Doesn't it only take 2 plaintiff's? Or just get a list going and file one together so a bunch of bloodsucking attorneys don't end up with all the money. | ||
| Post 962 • IP flag post | ||
 How do I know this? Because I've done it myself.
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lawguy1977 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @karn9 You can't find out on their own boards anymore, but if you go to Reddit, there are threads -- and, to answer your question, it's still a problem. I think anyone would be nuts to buy a book that is 39 or higher for the serial numbers. Sadly, I'm kicking myself because I bought a triple signed Batman 611 on eBay that started with "27" for the number, so I thought it would be fine. I should have looked closer. The signatures were done in 2024, and so it was re-slabbed in 24 with the signatures but kept the original number. And yes. The top is bowed. I'm just disgusted at myself for not catching it. |
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| Post 963 • IP flag post | ||
 I have not set up at a con since 2029.
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PolarisNuclearSS2020 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DrWatson The bending is very apparent in the first picture. I have to imagine bending that severe has produced color breaking spine tics. How do the FC/BC CGC Census scans look, compared to the condition of the book as it presently sits? I know CGC has a blanket statement abot not accepting books with bending a mechanical error reholders, but I'd say it's worth an email to them asking them to press and reholder the book on their dime. I'm assuming this book was slabbed at least a few months ago, CGC has tweaked their cases since bendgate started. Below is a CGC unboxing video from TopComicsPressing posted a month ago; Topczewski notes that the books don't have any severe bends but that the books feel lumpy in their holders (paraphrased). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoVZXmFBjc0 Wether you get CGC to cover pressing & a reholder or go with CBCS pressing and slabbing it, one thing I can say for sure is that I would not keep that book in its' current slab. |
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| Post 964 • IP flag post | ||
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| That’s an egregious bend as bad as I’ve seen on moderns. Quote: Originally Posted by DrWatson |
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| Post 965 • IP flag post | ||
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I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @PolarisNuclearSS2020 Here's the front. I don't have a back scan yet. If you look at the book as if you're looking over the horizon, you can see the wave. It hasn't broken the spine as far as I can tell at this point.  I'm going to pack it up and send it on in to CBCS with a couple of other books since they adjusted the special. I never would have bought it if it hadn't been the Northland copy. |
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| Post 966 • IP flag post | ||
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I have mentioned/hinted/suggested this possibility from the start. I laid the groundwork for my own potential claim through documenting assurances from CGC. Unfortunately, or fortunately, my submission came back without issues. I believe 40 books. It is worth noting that a class action suit in this case isn’t straightforward. I could go into detail on why but will just note the types of damages, and remedies, vary significantly across potential claimants / class members. I have thoughts on how to address those challenges and personally deem them surmountable. For whatever reason, people seem to think YouTube videos or message board rants are more effective. More power to them. *none of the above constitutes a legal opinion or even a fully informed or considered opinion* Quote: Originally Posted by flanders |
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Please share your thoughts on owners with multiple Mercedes. I’m curious to read them. Quote: Originally Posted by flanders |
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Ah, those bloodsucking attorneys. Always chasing the ambulance when you don’t want them but never around when you need them. Maybe you answered my other question above. Quote: Originally Posted by flanders |
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| Post 969 • IP flag post | ||
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I'd like to say I still turned out alright, but that would be a lie.
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flanders private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Social media rants seem to have been highly ineffective. Even auction houses continue to consign and sell the damaged books. Maybe they should be added as defendants as well. If I was an attorney I'd be drooling over this opportunity. It just surprises me that this has been going on well over a year now and no one has gotten the ball rolling on a lawsuit. There have to be several customers that are out tens of thousands of dollars because of the damage CGC has caused to their books. But then again, Hero Restoration was stealing for years before anyone did anything about it. Maybe most collectors truly are stereotypically fat and lazy. |
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How do I know this? Because I've done it myself.
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lawguy1977 private msg quote post Address this user | |
To start, TL : DR is likely the response you should have to this  But if you have nothing better to do, then here's my 2 cents on class actions. As a bloodsucking ambulance chaser, I can tell you that the likelihood of this becoming a successful class action is slim to none. There are few cases more difficult in the legal system to prosecute than a class action. And for as many successful class action cases you see, I promise there are more that fail. Class actions are typically handled in federal court -- which is way slower than state court. Defense attorneys know this and use it to their advantage. As for the actual case, you need one plaintiff as the "class representative" but you need a large list of class plaintiffs in order to have the case "certified" as a class action. That process alone takes a lot of time and money to cultivate. Maybe you get lucky and find the one guy who submitted an AF 15 that got damaged and lost $50k in value. He could be your class plaintiff. But is he a dealer? And how many dealers are willing to stand up to CGC to get pennies back years later along with burning their bridge with CGC? And then the final question -- what are the damages? And how do you prove the damage? That will be litgated for years and require multiple experts. "Grading is subjective," right? So are "alleged" damages. Litigation costs will be easily $200k to $300k -- all on the hope that you can get through all the "disclaimer" BS and "mechanical issues" -- in order to get each class plaintiff the costs of their submissions -- maybe. Could you prove intentional conduct regarding the likelihood that they knew their encapsulation process was causing damage to their product but did it anyway? Sure. You could. But in court, it's amazingly difficult, and it's a higher burden of proof than just establishing negligence -- and that's just to get past the judge. It doesn't mean a jury will agree. So that's a lot of risk for a plaintiffs class action firm to take on and invest hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of time for a very risky recovery. According to Google, CGC's annual revenue is around 40-50 million. The odds of involving Blackstone are zero to none. Parent companies are separate and, most often, untouchable. So, after likely 4-5 years of work and money, maybe you get an offer of 1 million. Maybe 2. Standard contingency fee in federal court is 25% plus return of costs. Remainder is divided out by a Multi-District Judge who looks at every plaintiff's alleged damages and decides how much they get of the class pot. None of this is fair, but I can promise you that CGC's lawyers know all of this and use it to the company's advantage. They are not scared of a class action because they know that plaintiffs firms would likely not devote the time and resources for it. And if an individual -- or even a dealer -- sues them, it's likely in small claims court. In the grand scheme of things, their legal costs are minimal -- just part of the cost of doing business. It's included in their budget. For an individual, it's thousands of dollars to play ball in the legal system. This is why you see class actions for things that either result in catastrophic injuries or are global, billion-dollar companies committing fraudulent acts that will ensure punitive damages. Baby powder causing cancer. Defective tires causing deaths (that the manufacturer knew about). A medical facility reusing needles to save some pennies while causing people to get HIV and Hepatitis (that was here in NV). Walmart manipulating its self-checkout scales to weigh items more to charge its customers more money. State Farm intentionally omitting reduction in value damages in auto property damage claims. Lies, fraud and big pockets all drive class action cases. Is that going on with CGC? Probably. But the damages concern physical property that have a subjective value. No one was killed. Millions of people are not being defrauded. And CGC's "big pockets" are nothing compared to most class action defendants. CGC's actions are reprehensible because the evidence is clear (to us) that they keep damaging books while denying responsibility. It's not a simple mistake or oversight. It's a pattern and practice. They should be held accountable in court. But it's unlikely and CGC knows it. There's probably a few submitters that have had damages in the thousands. That would get them out of small claims court. But they would either need to do the case on their own (good luck) or pay a lawyer an hourly rate to litigate the case. Typical rate in Vegas is $250 to $500 an hour, depending on the level of experience. (Personally, I've seen experienced lawyers charge up to $900 an hour now. Crazy, but true). Other cities will definitely be higher. So if you read this and hate the legal system, I totally get it. I've been in it for almost 20 years. I've seen cases where "justice" was done. I've seen a lot of cases where it wasn't. I don't hate the legal system, but I also know what it is and what it isn't. As for CGC and their banana books, IMO, the only thing that will truly affect CGC is if collectors -- and dealers -- stop submitting books to them. It would be quicker and more effective. But will that happen? I think we all already know the answer, unfortunately. |
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| Post 971 • IP flag post | ||
 Apparently, I am easily annoyed.
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Rbolton private msg quote post Address this user | |
| And the mighty dollar with the knock out once again defeating integrity.. | ||
| Post 972 • IP flag post | ||
 I'm not a plagiarist. I'm also not illiterate.
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drmccoy74 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @DrWatson the 22 has eye popping color. Has it retained any gloss? | ||
| Post 973 • IP flag post | ||
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I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers). Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| .... and I wonder why I'm paying more, now, for a raw book that is roughly equivalent to a CGC graded one. The amount of snarls, growls and stinkeyes I get from potential customers when I set up at conventions and show them my CGC books is exponentially higher than it was a few years ago. It's epidemic now and it is ashame. They have shot themselves in the foot and only the diehards seem to remain in the game. |
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| Post 974 • IP flag post | ||
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @lawguy1977 I read it but I disagree, with a caveat. If the issue is as widespread as many claim and if it goes back a couple of years, then it may be economically viable. It will depend on whether books are in fact being damaged en masse. If so, given the 500k-1.5m books graded annually, you get into an attractive enough range to commit resources to this. CGC seems sloppy enough in multiple areas that I think (assuming class certification succeeds) discovery could be… interesting. If damage or defect is less clear or prevalent… no bueno. |
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| Post 975 • IP flag post | ||
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How do I know this? Because I've done it myself.
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lawguy1977 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Davethebrave that's very true -- if you can establish a systemic problem going on for years due to their conduct, that makes it a lot bigger and more enticing. You're going to need engineeers for the slabbing process and comic experts on grading and value. And you might need a forensic IT expert as well to try and find whatever CGC may be hiding. Obviously, Borock would be the go-to expert considering his experience in the industry, especially with CGC and CBCS, but that's a big ask by either plaintiff or defense for him to jump into that legal mess and pick a side. Also, I think one of the biggest hurdles is establishing what the value is for the damages to the books and ensuring consistency for each class plaintiff. I can imagine a lot of class plaintiffs being mad at how their individual claims were valued by the MDL judge at the end of the case. Class plaintiffs almost have to approach the case more from the perspective of holding CGC accountable versus getting any sort of real financial recovery (for the majority of them, anyway). |
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| Post 976 • IP flag post | ||
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How do I know this? Because I've done it myself.
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lawguy1977 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Davethebrave one last thing -- discovery would definitely be fun. | ||
| Post 977 • IP flag post | ||
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| It may require sub class certification. Possibly two: 1) for repairing the defect plus a minimal value for general damages across that class 2) a class for those with more substantial value impacts. Imagine the first sub class - if widespread (that they were knowingly shipping a defective product that also could damage property) then the cost of reholder OR compensation for regrading by another company. Likely in the $20-$50 range per book. That may be the easy one - if certain facts can be proven, of course. So I agree it turns on the facts. But depending on how widespread we think it is, there could be enough at stake to support a suit. Remember, one key tactic will be to push for settlement. The launching of a suit alone, combined with potential risk of discovery, could be enough to drive a real response… Again, all of the above (my post) is purely speculative drivel in the spirit of message board entertainment. Quote: Originally Posted by lawguy1977 |
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I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by lawguy1977 Yeah, you've got to watch out for that. If it's a low certification number with a new label, then it has been reholdered and could be a potential banana slab. I think it was @figment that first made me realize that could happen. |
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I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drmccoy74 I believe it has. |
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