CGC knowingly damaging books?20972
 Collector
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sborock_ComicLink private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Remember when we were about less than year(?) in at CBCS and we found out that the inner wells the manufacturer shipped to us were not what we ordered and could/would damage the books??? Some did, but we made it right by the submitters and we IMMEDIATLY STOPPED the slabbing process and told the hobby in as many places as we could, so that word would get around fast, the second we found out. It really hurt us financially, big time, but we cared more about our submitter's comics and our hobby, as well as our hard-earned reputations. Most importantly...it was the right thing to do! OUR HOBBY SHOULD NOT BE A BIG GRAB FOR MONEY! I am hopeful that CGC will do/did the right thing as there are so many "real" hobbyists working there that I know would not be happy with the situation and would speak up, if the problem is not already fixed. I truly hope it is! I have a great relationship with both companies, and the great friends I have that I have worked with, even trained, at them. I only helped create these companies for the safety and growth of our great hobby as well as all my friends in it! Mark Haspel, Paul Litch and I, never saw the things certification, not grading, would turn into. Some good and some bad.  As to deleting any posts about CBCS on their boards (EXCEPT selling or trading them on there), I have always thought that was a bit was petty, because they do let people criticize CBCS and don't remove those posts. And there should be no reason to be scared of those posts, if they think or feel that they are much better than CBCS. That said, it's their boards, they can do what they want. I know that I did that while we set up the original "guidelines" for this forum. We let people show off and even be pro-CGC (JESSE WAS THE BEST MODERATOR!!!  )I know that the 1st 3 years scared the heck out of CGC, as we were gang busters at that point, before Beckett because my partner and his "investors" did not have the money I was told they did! I even told him that it took 5 years for CGC to make a single dollar. Those 3 years, we were taking away a lot of business from CGC as well. Heck, after the 1st few months after opening, Comiclink and HA (the only "real" auction houses for comics and OA IMHO. Though the reason I joined CL and did not go back to my friends and family at HA is that I truly believe you get the best bang for your buck and get better attention and placement from your consignment directors at CL) started vying for our graded comics because we were grading some of the BEST books coming to market. They were never vying for pgx, halo and all the other companies that were thieves, not true hobbyists, inept, sold grades, graded their own books to sell, etc.... Great companies need to be supported, as monopolies suck. That said, perception is everything. I really wish that there were 3 legit companies, not only 2. That would be great for all of us! When we started our forum, from the beginning, we wanted to keep all of us able to share and enjoy what the loved, whether CGC or CBCS. Buy the book, not the label and not because it's CBCS or CGC. If you know what you are looking at and not a novice, that would be great for all. Please don't get me started about 9.9 pre-screens or label chasers..... Sorry, once again, for the rant! Happy collecting everyone!  Have a most wonderful Sunday!   |
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Collector
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sborock_ComicLink private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by KatKomics What a horrible idea that was! So bad for our hobby, especially for the newer collectors who bought into that hype!  |
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| Post 27 • IP flag post | ||
 I'd like to say I still turned out alright, but that would be a lie.
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flanders private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I hope auction houses are aware of this issue and are thoroughly inspecting any CGC slabs that have been graded in 2024 so they can remove them from their site if necessary. | ||
| Post 28 • IP flag post | ||
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by flanders That’s what they need to do. The question is whether they need to inspect for damage or inspect for the issue, and what steps for either. My book, for instance, has zero spine damage. No ticks, color breaking or otherwise, no spine stress indicated. If you view the book head-on, it looks like a perfect 9.8 and there would be no concern. If you look from the side (edge-on) there is a gentle bend in the inner well. In the case of my book this is a “half bend”… it start centered front to back on the top and then ends on one side (front to back) on bottom. This may explain the lack of spine damage, combined with the book’s dimensions. Other images on the CGC forum show inner well bowed (so the well sits closer to front on top, bows out to back of case in middle, then to the front again on the bottom). Some of these books appear to have damage clearly not commensurate to their grades. Is it due to book dimensions? Case-by-case differences in how they’re assembled? Something else? In my case I am “okay-ish” with the book I have in-hand. Not happy - and I will get this corrected - but no clear urgency based on what I can see. My outrage and greater concern is with my submission. Sent out because - quite frankly the vintage sale was compelling. Was the trigger for having some high value, high grade books sent to grade as well… these books are important enough that I’m not okay with “damage then correct” approach… or rolling the dice on outcome. We are in many ways stewards of these old books and getting “the wrong grade” or some Newton’s rings are not impacting that stewardship. Damaging the books, however, is different. That is shameful and to do so knowingly, will make the CGC liable for damages. |
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| Post 29 • IP flag post | ||
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| What gives me some comfort is that I meticulously photograph all high value books pre-submission. Multiple angles and also make a video. If things slip - and somehow damage occurs, it is well documented. It is unfortunate that the level of trust and reliability is so poor. |
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| Post 30 • IP flag post | ||
 I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by flanders LOLZ  |
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| Post 31 • IP flag post | ||
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HAmistoso private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Post 32 • IP flag post | ||
 It's chicken Monday.
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Rush_is_a_band private msg quote post Address this user | |
| When I take my car in for service, I receive a brief video from the mechanic doing the inspection. I see them measure my break pads for thickness, I see them check tread wear on the tires, and I can see the break line as they slowly scan over it to show me everything is fine or if an issue is found, where it is. Just think, wouldn’t this be better than graders notes? There is a gauge that shows the difference between off white and cream pages; show me that you actually used this in your review by holding it up to the book. Show me on video where you see spin stress as you are slowly scanning the book across the video screen. Validate the work. I agree with Steve, it would be great if there was a 3rd company. If they did this for every book, it would be a no brainer who I went with. The video could be accessed via QR code by anyone who scans it, the inventory ID is shown so it can be validated and matched with every book. If there is nothing to hide, this would work. |
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| Post 33 • IP flag post | ||
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Rush_is_a_band Different fee level. Comics being graded and encapsulated and processed at <$40 each means the workflow has to be very, very efficient. At higher price tiers you should expect more time spent - significantly more time. You can then have these other layers added. The traditional auction houses (Christie’s and Sotheby’s) review items and provide condition reports. Even MCS notes condition of slabbed books. So it is definitely reasonable to expect the auction houses to perform some diligence, particularly for books in the hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. If they are aware of these issues, it will be stupid of them to not take some steps to address… or you will see buyers (and therefore sellers) migrate to other platforms. CGC should take action to nip this in the bud. Not doing so could give rise to real litigation, with clear and actionable damages. This isn’t like some of the other scandals, many of which were either “bad actors” (thieves/fraudsters) or bad optics (invisible comics, Newton’s rings). This is different as there is documented awareness of an issue, actual damage occurring, and it is all driven by internal decision making on how and whether to address. |
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| Post 34 • IP flag post | ||
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HAmistoso private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Good news is the newton ring problem appears to be resolved! | ||
| Post 35 • IP flag post | ||
 past performance is no guarantee of future actions.
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KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by HAmistoso lol...is this a case of be careful what you wish for? |
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| Post 36 • IP flag post | ||
 I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by sborock_ComicLink @sborock_ComicLink....you've done it once...twice....how about a third time? Wouldn't that be something?!! PCCS: Professional Comic Certification Services |
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| Post 37 • IP flag post | ||
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It's chicken Monday.
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Rush_is_a_band private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Davethebrave Yep. I get it, speed is the key for sure. My comment is much more of a “If I was going to start my own company, I’d do it this way…” kind of thing. There would inherently be more cost involved because the crafting would be slower (assumption on my part. No idea really how much more time it would take, but I do assume it would take more.) Also, the video records of the grading would have to be stored somewhere long term. Cloud based storage would be an additional cost. No idea what the cost per book would need to be to break even. I would market it however to my advantage that I don’t want to be the cheapest, but instead, the most transparent and accurate. Make it more of a prestige item. All just pie in the sky musings from a dude sitting at his work desk on a Sunday morning. |
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| Post 38 • IP flag post | ||
 I haven't aired it out. It's part of the provenance.
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Galen130 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I don’t participate hardly at all in the CGC forums anymore, but problems like this concerning CGC continues to NOT surprise me. Their consistent bullshit stopped me from submitting to anyone back in 2020. The comic collecting hobby getting blown up the last handful of years by greedy cretins was another deciding factor. As a previous CGC’er, I am VERY glad none of my CGC slabs are from the last 3 or 4 years, nor will I buy them. All comic grading companies have had issues in the past, but CGC as a company is filled with greedy, selfish, criminal, ignorant, and stupid people (generally speaking). I was one of those people on their boards that constantly railed against the company AND their garbage forums (Invision). But, I left when all the kool-aid drinkers continued submitting books and complaining about the final product. Having said all that, here’s a philosophy that helps me remember anyone can make mistakes. This statement pretty much sums up why I’ll walk away from anything negative in my life. ‘Better late than never’ doesn’t quite say it. 🤣🤣  |
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| Post 39 • IP flag post | ||
 It gets old smelling it everytime I go outside my door.
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Nearmint67 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GAC It would take a Grateful Dead Reunion tour (with Jerry Garcia) to get the hippie back in a grading room. Many times we were talking, and he would say "hold on, I'm grading a book" then say, "ok, I need a smoke break". I know it was fun for a while. But after over a million books graded, he served our hobby well in that respect. And I know he loves his freedom to roam the country seeking deals and attending cons to meet & greet fellow hobbyists. Not to mention he works from home, sets his own hours and has family around him. So I say, thanks to my hippie pal for what he has done and I am happy for him to be doing what he is doing. Now I believe he is working on an undiscovered Pedigree collection. Can't wait to see what he finds next. |
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| Post 40 • IP flag post | ||
 I'm sure whatever it was you got me was perfect.
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PhantomEwan private msg quote post Address this user | |
Just checked my recent comics and I have 3 with this issue including one from the Nicholas Cage signing. Afraid I will find the same when mine from the Hugh Jackman signing shows up.  |
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| Post 41 • IP flag post | ||
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I'd like to say I still turned out alright, but that would be a lie.
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flanders private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I'd suggest avoiding anything CGC that has a label number that starts with 44 and some of the ones that start with 43. I think that covers anything graded in 2024. Either that or lowballing them at auction. | ||
| Post 42 • IP flag post | ||
 The apple sauce and pudding were the best part...
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Bronte private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @flanders Do you thinkit would be any label that has a qr code on tbe back? |
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| Post 43 • IP flag post | ||
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I'd like to say I still turned out alright, but that would be a lie.
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flanders private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Bronte maybe. I didn't think about that. I bid too much at comiclink and they don't provide back scans. | ||
| Post 44 • IP flag post | ||
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The apple sauce and pudding were the best part...
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Bronte private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @flanders My thoughts are it would be easier to remember is all. I assume they happened around the same time |
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| Post 45 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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sborock_ComicLink private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by flanders I get it. Totally! That said, if you would like a back cover scan, we are more than happy to email it to you! (if it's valued at $200+) You just have to email us or me directly at sborock@ComicLink.com and I will Have someone to email that it to you within 48 hours or less. They don't work in the office on Saturday or Sunday. So that would about 4 days..... When you (ComicLink) pay a very fair finder's fees and ONLY work on a ten percent total with no BS fees at auction because it would cost way too much for another (well-paid and experienced) new employee in that position to get you the highest price at a larger percentage than usual as possible! BUT...any extra money a business spends, YOU eat the cost. Sucks! I want to make sure you get the best bang for your buck! I have learned that protecting our consigners, buyers, and our wonderful hobby at any cost, as well as keeping an honest auction house in our hobby, it just costs a ton of money! Especially keeping and scanning and even just taking time sending images of books where we only make a touch of money on many books. Heck, we break even on the $100 books, but we don't cherry pick your collection if you don't care that, whatever your low dollar pieces sell for, still you only pay a minimum of $10 per anything $99 or under. Please don't go for "bell and whistles" at other places, because "Bigger isn't better. better is better!" .... One of my favorite lyrics is: "One man gathers what another man spills..." DON'T SPILL! 🤣  |
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| Post 46 • IP flag post | ||
 Not trying to be an ass since February 12, 2020.
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HulkSmash private msg quote post Address this user | |
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| Post 47 • IP flag post | ||
 I wish I had a title.
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ComicNinja0215 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Just watched a video on YT about this exact issue. The whole order was affected...bananas! |
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| Post 48 • IP flag post | ||
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I'd like to say I still turned out alright, but that would be a lie.
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flanders private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by sborock_ComicLink Thanks Steve. I'll keep that in mind on the rare occassion when I'm not bidding on dreck  . |
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| Post 49 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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sborock_ComicLink private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GAC  I would only do it again because I love our hobby! Then again, if I got a 1/2 million bucks up front, as well as an amazing salary and a small piece of that company, NOPE! Never again!  I can still do what I have always done. Grading, training, consulting the company, working the conventions, helping the company help the Hero Initiative, and most importantly, teaching those of us who want to learn the ethics of our hobby (and life as it goes hand-in-hand) when they are not "seasoned enough and helping our hobby. Not just trying to make a buck off of us who don't even have a love for the medium that we love. BUT...I just turned 61 and want to spend time with family as well. That's why I went with ComicLink. I work soooo many hours, that I can easily take a full day off during the weekend, or even a week day, to spend with my kids, grandkids and, especially, the love of my life, Pam. |
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| Post 50 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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sborock_ComicLink private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @flanders LOL!!! There is no "dreck" in comics for collectors who happen to like what others don't, just lower value to a bunch of collectors and, especially "flippers". A low price doesn't always mean a comic was not a great read. If there is an abundance of a comic you want to collect, that is actually great! It costs you so very little to own something you dig and help keeps our hobby fun! It's why we are in it. But speculator's, flippers and the collectors, who can afford and love big expensive key and rare books, keep those prices high. I know that "back in the day", that myself, Dan, Dwight and Eddie and a very few others were paying HUGE prices for More Fun Comics between #'s 42-101 in high grade. The entire GA Flash run and the Adventure run from #'s 40-103 and other cool high-grade copies of comics that fell out of fashion for a few years before. I was told, many years ago, by a huge dealer, that when I and two others had what we needed/wanted and stopped paying the highest prices, the market was cut by 40% for those kinds of sellers. CRAZY, but true! |
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| Post 51 • IP flag post | ||
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Spoke at length with CGC customer service. They agreed to put in writing that there is no current issue with inner well/holders and that my books will not be damaged through processing and encapsulation. That is sufficient for my purposes at the moment. Having the exchange documented was key. My book showing signs of the inner well curve has no apparent damage that makes it inconsistent with its 9.8 grade (thankfully). I will consider a reholdering of the book, though will wait for my recent grading batch to be returned before sending anything in… |
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| Post 52 • IP flag post | ||
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I wish I had a title.
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ComicNinja0215 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Davethebrave Thanks Dave, I appreciate getting this info to us. |
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| Post 53 • IP flag post | ||
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| No problem. Something I strongly suggest that made me feel (slightly) less concerned about another CGC debacle: photograph and take videos of high value books before submission. I did this for all my higher value books. Out of mylar, handling carefully, photos from various angles. Video “walk around” of my most important ones. If something comes back that doesn’t match - I have strong evidence and a basis for comparison. Unrelated comment - CBCS needs to play better defense (and offense) here. I was ripe for a submission but the price difference was simply too great. CBCS would do well with similar “bulk” discounts - get customers to send volume orders their way. Not dealer type volume, but collector level big batches… |
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| Post 54 • IP flag post | ||
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I wish I had a title.
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ComicNinja0215 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Davethebrave 1000% agree. I would send more to cbcs that way. Dave for president! |
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