CGC knowingly damaging books?20972
 How do I know this? Because I've done it myself.
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lawguy1977 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Davethebrave that's very true -- if you can establish a systemic problem going on for years due to their conduct, that makes it a lot bigger and more enticing. You're going to need engineeers for the slabbing process and comic experts on grading and value. And you might need a forensic IT expert as well to try and find whatever CGC may be hiding. Obviously, Borock would be the go-to expert considering his experience in the industry, especially with CGC and CBCS, but that's a big ask by either plaintiff or defense for him to jump into that legal mess and pick a side. Also, I think one of the biggest hurdles is establishing what the value is for the damages to the books and ensuring consistency for each class plaintiff. I can imagine a lot of class plaintiffs being mad at how their individual claims were valued by the MDL judge at the end of the case. Class plaintiffs almost have to approach the case more from the perspective of holding CGC accountable versus getting any sort of real financial recovery (for the majority of them, anyway). |
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| Post 976 • IP flag post | ||
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How do I know this? Because I've done it myself.
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lawguy1977 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Davethebrave one last thing -- discovery would definitely be fun. | ||
| Post 977 • IP flag post | ||
 " . "
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Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user | |
| It may require sub class certification. Possibly two: 1) for repairing the defect plus a minimal value for general damages across that class 2) a class for those with more substantial value impacts. Imagine the first sub class - if widespread (that they were knowingly shipping a defective product that also could damage property) then the cost of reholder OR compensation for regrading by another company. Likely in the $20-$50 range per book. That may be the easy one - if certain facts can be proven, of course. So I agree it turns on the facts. But depending on how widespread we think it is, there could be enough at stake to support a suit. Remember, one key tactic will be to push for settlement. The launching of a suit alone, combined with potential risk of discovery, could be enough to drive a real response… Again, all of the above (my post) is purely speculative drivel in the spirit of message board entertainment. Quote: Originally Posted by lawguy1977 |
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| Post 978 • IP flag post | ||
 I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by lawguy1977 Yeah, you've got to watch out for that. If it's a low certification number with a new label, then it has been reholdered and could be a potential banana slab. I think it was @figment that first made me realize that could happen. |
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| Post 979 • IP flag post | ||
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I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drmccoy74 I believe it has. |
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| Post 980 • IP flag post | ||
 I have not set up at a con since 2029.
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PolarisNuclearSS2020 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DrWatson I see that this book recently sold on HipComic and it also recently sold recently via mycomicshop auction. -as the book has FC and BC scans in the HipComic listing, I'm assuming you won it in MCS's auction. https://www.hipcomic.com/listing/x-men-22-1966-marvel-comics-cgc-92-northland-collection-pedigree-white-pages/15981242 It looks the HipComic buyer at $1500 apparently sent the slab to MCS to unload it in auction, shortly after buying it. I haven't renewed my GPA in months, but I'm pretty sure that this book didn't pull anywhere near $1500 in a weekly MCS auction. On the upside, you got it at a discount so the CBCS pressing and grading costs work out in that respect. |
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| Post 981 • IP flag post | ||
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I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
| An added bonus is that I will also get rid of that ridiculous gold label. They make my eyes burn. | ||
| Post 982 • IP flag post | ||
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I have not set up at a con since 2029.
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PolarisNuclearSS2020 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Far as a class action suit is concerned, and speaking as a...ummm...bird law attorney myself, I agree with @lawguy1977. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM5DBHb1GV0 Low hanging fruit aside, I can't imagine any books like an AF 15 weren't given the holder tweaks needed to avoid heavy bending. And no dealer would hose their own business with a class action lawsuit against CGC. That is effectively what a legal pile on would amount to. Ome needn't be a bird law attorney to comprehend objective reality, after all. No way to prove CGC has been operating with willful negligence WRT holder issues for years, to begin with.... the banana holders haven't been out for longer than a year or so. They are/were a poorly designed and executed patch job at making their holders more resistamt to being cracked open without obvious damage to the posts, in response to the employees CGC fired and sued for swapping customers books out last year. I will say that CGC's adustments to their banana holder have seemingly addressed the potential for bends capable of causing spine tics. This Here For Hire 1 9.8 was graded & slabbed a few months ago, and has an inner well design that looks like what I would call "anti-creep engine". What is really patently absurd is that there is no conceivable way to make any holder all that tamper evident if cracked. You can bulk up the plastic and make it harder to crack, but we're talking about plastic. The glaring problem with bulking up a slab, is an obvious increase on pressure being applied to a book. This is what is causing the banana effect, it's similiar to the underlying design flaw of CGC's 4/4/2016 case rollout.....which is when CGC bulked their hoder up from the previous CGC holder generation, which was pretty much the same design as CBCS's first generation holders from 2015 or so, were The biggest safeguard against tampering is ultimately being able to pull up the scans taken by CGC upon grading any book in question. AFAIK, CBCS doesn't take front and rear scans of books, upon grading/slabbing them.   |
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| Post 983 • IP flag post | ||
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How do I know this? Because I've done it myself.
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lawguy1977 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @PolarisNuclearSS2020 I don't know how I've never seen that Bird Law clip before. Absolutely hilarious! And yeah, you're discussing the reality of getting significant class members put together, which, to me, would be dealers, and I think you're spot on, that it would be extremely difficult. It's a little bit like asking a Honda dealership to sue Honda for having them sell a defective product. |
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| Post 984 • IP flag post | ||
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I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Those side and bottom support clips have been around for quite some time. | ||
| Post 985 • IP flag post | ||
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How do I know this? Because I've done it myself.
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lawguy1977 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @Davethebrave you're right about the sub-classes -- it would have to be done. And maybe the pay out would be that high to cover submission costs, but that could go the other way, too. You need as many members as possible, but, of course, that reduces the total payout amongst the class members depending on the settlement reached. I think about how many times my info has been hacked in a data breach, and I think each time I've gotten like $5 despite the data company paying out hundreds of millions of dollars. As for filing the suit, you're right -- it can potentially result in a quick settlement, but it would be small. Now, if the class is certified, that's a different situation. That would definitely get some settlement negotiations going. Of course, the question always is what would they actuall offer at any of those stages. It's fun to discuss, simply because I'd love to see it happen and gratefully hop on to the class. It's sickening to see constant mistakes and then an utter disregard and denial of them. |
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| Post 986 • IP flag post | ||
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I have not set up at a con since 2029.
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PolarisNuclearSS2020 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Blows my mind that CGC doesn't just bring back the "sliding inner well" tweak they rolled out at some point after their 4/4/2016 "new case" rollout. The 4/4/2016 case redesign removed the inner well and replaced the inner well with 2 sheets of Mylar, quite possibly the stupidest design one could come up with. It was effectively CGC's version of the screw down "Fortress" comic holders that came out in the 1990's, see Norrin Radd's post below for an explanation. https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/48251-what-ever-happened-to-the-fortress/ I actually have one of CGC's "sliding inner well" holders, which were introduced at some point between 2016 and 2020. This was CGC's best holder, but those twats dropped that design after customers complained about the book being able to slide on its track in the inner well. What all those nitwits didnt understand is that the sliding inner well negated not only Newton rings but all other issues that could, (and not uncommonly did), damage books in holders due to excess pressure exerted on the spine. From SCS (shaken case syndrome) to newton rings to the 4/4/2016 creep engine that caused waviness. Remember CGC graded books from mid to late 2016 that were correctly referred to as "off-centered" in the holder? a couple weeks after being slabbed, they would have ripples/waves, especially prominent at the top and bottom of the book. All of the issues with bending spines are just another extension of what invariably happens when pressure points are disregarded. The sliding inner well did away with all such pressurized design flaws, and it is really the only solution that can be applied to avoid CGC's current problem with pressure being exerted on the spine i.e. bending the spine. It could be used again, and I strongly suspect that the sliding inner well would allow for pairing the current stronger/bulked up holder in such a way that would allow for CGC to not have to rely solely upon pacement of a book to the right in the holder which is done to alleviate pressure on the spine (pressure that leads to bends and tics) as this HFH 1 9.8 shows. The book is placed to the right side of the holder, CGC clearly recognizes that this patch addresses the pressure issue. Add in the sliding track at the top/bottom of the book to allow the inner well to "roll on", and you have a stronger case without the pressure mechanism which bends the damn spines. A sliding inner well, along with the slight placement of the book to the right side of the holder, which is done to avoid bunching up spines on GA books....this is why you see GA books with spine rolls in magazine sized holders. The sliding inner well, if paired along with the slight rightward placement of a book in the inner well like this HFH #1 9.8 would goddamn fully negate any potential for banana'ing up a spine. It amazes me that I haven't seen any else even bring up CGC's short lived sliding inner well, as a remedy to allowing for the tweaks made by CGC this past year to make their holders more tamper resistant/tamper evident. I actually have one of those sliding inner well slabs, a Superior Spider-Man #3 1:50 variant. I'll snap some pics and post them up for context later. Again, here's the HFH 1 9.8 with extra space allowed in the holder for the spine (which is the thickest part of a comic book). to avoid undue pressure. Add in a sliding inner well track to this HFH #1 9.8 slab design, and you get the best of both worlds, without dicking anything up. |
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| Post 987 • IP flag post | ||
 I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
| CGCs inability to create a slab that does not damage books is rediculous on so many levels. That fact that it happens at all is rediculous. They invented the bloody thing. Has CBCS ever had a slab that damage books? No. I'm pretty sure PGX hasn't either. CGC has had more than 1 generation of slabs damaging books...I think it's been 3 generations of slabs. Why can't they get it right? Why do they think it's OK to continue to sell their existing defective stock? It's completely absurd and this should tell everyone all they need to know about CGC. |
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| Post 988 • IP flag post | ||
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I have not set up at a con since 2029.
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PolarisNuclearSS2020 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DrWatson Correct, they aren't quite what I'm referring to as the primary mechanism to avoid excess pressure from the beefed up holder. That primary mechanism is the extra space allocated on the spine (left end of the holder) when looking at the book from the front. This book is "off center" in its' holder for that reason, it's a sacrifice of some visual appeal of a book being placed centered, as is normally done. This sacrifice in visual appeal is made to to allocate a buffer zone for the spine so it doesnt get banana'd from the pressure of he outer well. I am not suure if that's sufficient. But I'd bet a crisp $100 bill that it would be sufficient, if a sliding well mechanism was also put into place. You just wouldm't have to have that big of a buffer zone (extra space along the spine for the spine), as you see in this HFH #1 9.8 slab. The sliding inner well only allowed for the inner well to slide/roll on its' track a tiny amount. I'd guess 1/16". |
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| Post 989 • IP flag post | ||
 It's like the Roach Motel for comic collectors.
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chester15 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| My nephew got a box of 25 Copper/Modern slabs back from CGC about a month ago. Two did not have any banana effect, 23 did. It was a milder curve than in the past, but from multiple directions on some, creating that "bowl effect". Mostly it was on the right side of the book/capsule, not so much on the spine side. | ||
| Post 990 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
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cphoenix921 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Just reading through this thread. This is the information I have been looking for. People stopped talking about Banana gate so I assumed wrongly that it was resolved. I have submitted over 60 comics in the last few months(2025)and at least 35% of them still have bends. They are not as bad as before but the comics still don't look good. It's frustrating. The other question I have is why does it seem like many of the influencers on YouTube that originally complained about this are no longer reporting issues. It's either one because they don't want their buyers to turn elsewhere or two CGC is making sure that the influencer's don't get the bad inner wells which is what was reported on the CGC message boards to be the cause. Either way I can't understand why anyone is still paying a premium for CGC. They are the new PGX. Nothing but scandal after scandal. | ||
| Post 991 • IP flag post | ||
 I wish I had a title.
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ComicNinja0215 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by cphoenix921 Welcome to the forum bud!! Try the nachos; they're excellent but stay away from the veal. I'm very interested in seeing the grades of my last two submissions.(both cgc bananas). Fingers crossed they keep their grades. |
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| Post 992 • IP flag post | ||
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I've spent years perfecting my brand of assholery.
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DrWatson private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @cphoenix921 "Influncers" are always looking for new drama. Old drama doesn't generate new clicks or views. | ||
| Post 993 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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cphoenix921 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @DrWatson True, but many of these "influencers" sell graded comics. People need to start speaking out. It's ridiculous for the hobby to just keep mindlessly paying a premium for a comic in a CGC slab vs. CBCS which at this point is a much better company. Obviously all of them have their problems but at this point it just plain stupid. The only reason anyone continues to grade with CGC is because of the price premium. I realize many people don't agree with comic grading or flipping but it's just a reality, same with graded sports cards and Pokémon. It's a huge part of the hobby and it's not going anywhere but you have to be able to trust in the product and there is just too many bad actors that are not being weeded out. But ultimately it comes down to consumers. If they remain stuck on stupid, nothing will change. | ||
| Post 994 • IP flag post | ||
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @cphoenix921 welcome to the forum. I can't tell you why YT influencers behave the way they do but I'm sure @DrWatson's response is atleast part of the answer. The other part of the answer might be that CGC is so firmly established in the 3rd party grading arena that not many collectors/influencers want to rock that boat too much. The perception being their collections value might be at stake or threatened. Education is key. This is why most of us are here at the CBCS Forum. I only grade my books with CBCS because they are by far, the best 3rd party grader on the market...consistent grading, miles ahead in superior slabs, hobby friendly with first-to-market comic signature authentication, Pressing that doesn't damage books (and slabs for that matter). It seems like you've caught on about the inferiority of CGC and refused their Kool aid...hopefully you stick around here....lots of cool people with cool collections and tons of comic and grading knowledge. I'm not 100% convinced of the CGC sales premium....I've sold many slabbed books...CGC and CBCS and I never sell a CBCS book for less than a CGC one...I get FMV for all my CBCS books...no price reductions for CBCS with me anyway. |
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| Post 995 • IP flag post | ||
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I wish I had a title.
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ComicNinja0215 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @GAC remember Kool-Aid Burts?? Those were great. Anyway, yeah, cgc is no good. Especially since they raised their prices, again. I remember there wasn't a line to grade books for them at NYCC. On the other hand, it was early and the first day. |
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| Post 996 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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cphoenix921 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I hear what everyone is saying but let's not forget what happened to Beckett's CEO so they are not perfect either. I know CBCS has tried to move away from that but it is what it is. I stand by my comment about too many bad apples in the hobby. Fanatics, CGC, Beckett, etc. I am no CBCS fanboy by any stretch, but CGC is unusable at this point. There needs to be competition, I wouldn't want CBCS to have a monopoly either. I just wish that there was a way to educate people and a trustworthy source to rate the companies. I agree that CBCS has tighter grading standards and have fixed the issues with the labels and slabs. We will also see what the new kids on the block at PSA bring to the table later this year. Either way thanks for the responses. Hopefully if someone sees these post they will know that CGC has gone bananas and it's time to split. (sorry terrible Dad joke!) Where is Sterling Archer when you need him. I'm sure he has something for this. | ||
| Post 997 • IP flag post | ||
 I'm waiting.... (tapping fingers).Splotches is gettin old! |
Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user | |
| That company (CGC) has run itself into a very bad place. I continue to say on here and will continue to say that Nelson guy needs to go. The totality of these Eff-ups are under his watch and sure every President/CEO misses the boat or makes a mistake. But this guy Nelson - incompetent. A Polished Rock could do better. Get a guy/gal in there who just has a shred of common sense. Let's start there |
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| Post 998 • IP flag post | ||
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I don't believe this....and I know you don't care that I don't believe this.
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GAC private msg quote post Address this user | |
| In my opinion, the challenges that CBCS has faced do not come close to the repeated scandals that CGC appear to wilfully perpetrate. | ||
| Post 999 • IP flag post | ||
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Collector
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cphoenix921 private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by GACQuote: Originally Posted by GAC Agreed but CGC slabs still sell for 30% more and until that changes no one will move away. Don't get me wrong I have seen a couple of comps lately that were close but overall CGC will sell all day even with defects. SMH. So frustrating. |
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| Post 1000 • IP flag post | ||