CBCS vs CGC1957
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KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer @shrewbeer If only that were true. I wish, but its not the reality. Until the invention of a computer and a robot laser/arm/camera that grades every book to the exact same standards exactly the same time every time, until that happens there will never be an exact grade. We all are paying CGC, CBCS, PGX for a human being's opinion of what the grade of a book is based upon "kind of" similar grading standards. It is not exact and it is subject to the person grading it. You can have a reasonable assumption the grade is correct but it would be foolish to 100% trust it. You can't even trust grading companies to 100% of the time catch restoration. With that said, slabbed books still gives a buyer some reasonable assumptions about the condition of the book. |
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Nobody is saying 100%. High standard, ie not 9.0 vs 7.5 | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer And that perspective is why you will have nothing but problems and unmet expectations: your expectations aren't reasonable, and your understanding of how books are graded isn't accurate. There will NEVER be an "elimination of the discussion as to what the grade is", because ALL grades are only OPINIONS. Grading isn't done by machines calibrated to the nearest picometer, nor should it be. Grading is an organic process, an art AND a science, done by human beings, human beings who, themselves, would grade one book a 9.4 one day, a 9.6 another, and a 9.2 another. And none of those grades is wrong. The problem isn't a lack of consistency in grading...it's the sheer and utter lunacy of the market placing absurd premiums on minute and even non-existent differences in physical preservation. There's no way....none...that a 9.6 X-Men #12 is "worth" nearly $6,000, while a 9.4 is worth less than half that, a mere $2700. The difference between a 9.6 and a 9.4 are miniscule. Even on the most conservatively graded 9.6, and the most liberally graded 9.4, we're STILL only talking tiny differences in condition that 99.9997% of COMIC BUYERS couldn't even point out. And yet, one's "worth" more than double the other. What's the difference...? The number in the corner. That's it. You want to get frustrated, get frustrated at the market making these ridiculous differences in value. Don't get mad at the graders. You're only buying an opinion. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer Your standards are too high. The difference between a 9.0 and a 7.5, while ADMITTEDLY broad, isn't that big a difference. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by KingNampa And there shouldn't be! We're talking about items that, for nearly all of their existence, were made to very low production standards, and were meant to be enjoyed then tossed. They were never meant to be argued about in terms of "well, this spine tick is 1/16", and it barely breaks color, so is it a 9.8 or a 9.6?" Don't misunderstand...I'm glad it IS argued, because that's the field I play in, but they weren't intended that way. Grading is, again, an organic process, a feel, a look. It's not something that can be done by a computer, just like any art form can't be done that way. |
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Yes I have high standards, I expect a book to be within half point of reality. That's why I use CBCS   And no I really dont think either company has a big difference in opinion as to what "reality" is. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by KingNampa Exactly! It's not about eliminating risk...it's about mitigating it. I can buy a 9.8 X-Men #98, and be reasonably assured that it is in a condition I would be well pleased with...and not have multiple creases, spine stress, thumb dents, water stains, or any of the other baloney that plagued the comics market in the bad old days. It MAY BE a 9.6 on another day...it may even be a 9.4...but do you know what it won't be? A 6.5. Or an 8.0. Or a 3.5. And for that, I am IMMENSELY grateful. |
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| Post 132 • IP flag post | ||
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer You can't talk about "reality" and "opinion" in the same sentence. You're not talking about high standards, you're talking about impossible standards. And if you do that, you're going to be endlessly annoyed and frustrated. |
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Which is why I use one grading company that I trust, so that Im not endlessly annoyed and frustrated; I'm happy  |
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| Post 134 • IP flag post | ||
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mattness private msg quote post Address this user | |
Code Gray, Code Gray - Quick someone give the Doc some Xanax  |
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KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user | |
There will never be an end to this debate. Its an infinite symbol . HAHA   |
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| Post 136 • IP flag post | ||
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JLS_Comics private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I can't read the entire thread so apologies if we've moved past this conversation already but here is my take on cgc vs cbs. I base it upon what is important to ME, what I look for in a company and I do understand that everyone's priorities are different. I'll list who wins under each company name. CBCS: Price Turn-Around Time Signature Verification Label Design Customer Service (Normal interactions + Management of quality concerns, handling of NewtonRing-gate) CGC Census: My opinion on this is that, as more come to CBCS and even PGX, that their census is increasingly inaccurate and irrelevant. Someone should make a Slab census that records grades from all companies. To do 1 out of 3 makes no sense any more. Re-Sale: In actuality is is only, on AVERAGE ~10% higher. But then you have to factor in what you're having graded and if the turn around time will eat away at that 10% So there you go. I think I have a clear winner!  |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer That's a good thing. You should be satisfied with the people you give your money to. But, unless you're a kool-aid drinker who convinces yourself that (in robotic voice): "CBCS.is.perfect.CBCS.can.do.no.wrong.", then there will come a time when you ARE annoyed and frustrated by a grade they've given, because that's the organic nature of grading. And pretending otherwise isn't healthy; you don't want to think that, and CBCS doesn't want anyone to think that, either. It's not good for anyone to have an unrealistic view of the nature of grading comic books. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by mattness Ooo, that would be good. I can slip them into the drinks of the people around me who get too excited... ...would you like one? |
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| Post 139 • IP flag post | ||
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DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| There's a big difference between a subjective opinion being the difference between a 9.2 and a 9.4 and what we are talking about here. A clear 7.5 was graded a 9.0 not because of subjective opinion but sheer negligence of missing actual defects. If you think a mere "opinion" can be the difference between those two grades, then my opinion is you are delusional. | ||
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JWKyle private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I saw these notes Shrewbeer posted. Notes: FEW tiny bends to cover. Small crease bottom left corner back cover does not break color and bends through book. This screams to me send more money and your book will grade higher. But then that's just my opinion on why neither comic grading company should be pressing books in house. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Well, sure, if you want to make the discussion personally insulting, that's fine. I suspect that you don't have much experience with grading to make that comment. One more time: 9.0 = VF/NM. 7.5 = VF-. That's not even a full grade. What if the book is really an 8.0/8.5, and CGC was too liberal on it, and CBCS was too strict? Here's what JWKyle said: Quote: Originally Posted by JWKyle See? Even he is implying that the CBCS grade was too strict. Speaking of delusional, however, is saying that CGC "missed actual defects." How can you possibly know? Here's what you said: Quote: Originally Posted by Darth Lego How is it "obvious" that CGC missed those things? Your opinion? How can anyone say that, not having either been the grader(s) who looked at it, AND seen the notes? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the notes for that book haven't been posted, have they? If not, how can you even BEGIN to say that they "missed the sun shading and the pencil mark"...? You don't know. You have no way of knowing. And yet, here you are, speaking as if you DO know. That's irresponsible. Don't be a kool-aid drinker. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego How do you know CGC will "miss" those defects? And let's not fool ourselves, here, the market is paying for the GRADER'S opinions, not yours or mine. I am as skilled a grader in 1952-present books as anyone in the business, but MY opinion won't get me a 9.8 price on my raw Batman #251. It's the number on the label that counts to the market. And if it's the number that counts to the market, and my opinion can't HELP me, then that works both ways: my opinion can't HURT me, either. |
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ZosoRocks private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown I tend to lean your way. People wanted a visual that secures a grade that they can be happy with. Thus the Grading Age took off. Grading is subjective.....thus another reason why I am VERY selective on what I will archive. I'm a guy who has an attention to detail, but not the micro level. I use a grading company to confirm what I think is a high grade comic...nothing more...nothing less. I am at their control.....BUT.....if I am going to send in a 7.0 comic....I intend the comic to come back as 6.0 - 8.0. Grading is subjective. If it came back as a 5.0 or a 9.0....I'd be concerned with whom is logging these grades as such. Grading is subjective. I can't say it enough.....you pay for another person's opinion, whom will stand behind their opinion with a certification. Since there isn't any legal avenue to dispute what they claim is a certain grade, either you live with the grade given, dispute it through their CS team...or don't use the company. We all have a freedom to choose. Choose wisely. :o) IMO of course....LOL |
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
@DocBrown I was wondering how so many people could like what you have to say... then I noticed how you got all your votes  Theres no need to try to be superior than others here, that belongs on the other side of the street  |
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mattness private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown No Thanks Doc, I want a second opinion and I found it at CBCS  |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer You are offended because someone challenged what you believe is true. You expressed that offendedness by making personal comments that have nothing to do with this discussion. Granted. However, if you're going to be offended by other people challenging what you say, to the point where you feel the need to make personal comments about others, then perhaps the internet isn't the right place for you. That said, I highly, highly recommend you keep an open mind. No one is "trying to be superior" than anyone else; the people who say those things are the offended. If you are offended, you cannot learn, but if you keep an open mind, and consider what others have to say, you might learn things you didn't know. |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by mattness Not sure what CBCS has to do with Xanax (maybe CBCS is your Xanax...?), but that's good to know. CBCS has quality people working for it, and let's be clear: the market has needed CBCS for a very, very long time. Competition is a wonderful, wonderful thing. Monopolies are very bad, because it means those monopolies can ignore their customers; after all, where else are they going to go? (The same thing applies to gov't, but I digress.) CBCS was founded because CGC didn't do what they needed to do. No doubt. But CBCS has forced CGC to get better, and CGC has forced CBCS to BE better, and the winners in all of that are the consumers. Nothing could be better for the graded comics market! It would be a mistake to assume that someone challenging what someone else says means that they are therefore "for" this or "anti" that. I'm sure you're not making that mistake, right..? |
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shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
I'm not offended, I'm laughing  There's no other reason for inflating your vote count other than the need to feel superior   |
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| Post 149 • IP flag post | ||
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VillageIdiot private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Why not? I'll start with 7 to 8 spine ticks! That's NOT a VF/NM grade on any planet known to carbon units. The difference between a 9.0 and a 7.5 is quite substantial in my opinion. A 1/4 grade difference in grade? I can easily accept. A 1/2 grade difference in grade? getting bothersome. 3/4 of a grade difference? uhhhhh, yeah, I can easily tell you the difference between the two. I hope you could as well  |
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KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user | |
I like comics and being friends on the internets.  |
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DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeer No one believes that. Not even you.  |
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KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user | |
| So the real question is can CBCS's dad beat up CGC's dad? Who ever wins that fight is the better grading company. |
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dpiercy private msg quote post Address this user | |
| To use the bathroom in a public place without thinking of the bacteria one can encounter is often necessary to be relieved in a satisfactory manner. | ||
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