CBCS vs CGC1957
 I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
|
drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I am not saying that a 9.0 book in the eyes of one person could not be a 7.5 book in the eyes of another person but at the end of the day the true grade of the book is what it is regardless of perception. With that being said a 7.5 book graded accurately should not be mistaken for a 9.0 book by a knowledgeable grader. |
||
| Post 251 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
|
DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos What is the "true grade" of a comic book? Who determines that? All grades are arrived at by consensus. The graders have to agree, and the customers have to agree. If the customers don't agree...whether the submitter of the buyer or the slab....then it doesn't matter what the graders think. The "true" grade is whatever the current owner thinks it is, right...? Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos I'd say 87% of the time, you're absolutely correct, and the general consensus agrees with that. But there exists in that 13% a reasonable subjectivity, for strong 7.5s (which certainly exist) and weak 9.0s (also extant), and the personal foibles of the people grading the books. Ultimately, it's what makes the madness of paying these price differentials so stark. It's not the grading that's out of whack...it's the prices. |
||
| Post 252 • IP flag post | ||
 COLLECTOR
|
shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Just gonna leave this here for sh*ts |
||
| Post 253 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I'm still not sure why some of you are talking about "the past." These are issues as they stand, today, and going forward. Can anyone explain why they think someone is "living in the past"? What past? How so? |
||
| Post 254 • IP flag post | ||
|
I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
|
drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown Back in the 1980s and before we had Mint, Near Mint, Very Fine, Fine, Very Good, Good, Fair, and Poor as the grading levels anyone cared about. I think VF/NM. VF/F, and VG/G may also have been grades then as well. Anything from a 9.2 to a 9.6 was considered Near Mint and people were very happy to have those 9.2s in their collection. Now everyone wants 9.8s and perhaps 9.6s or even 9.4s depending on the book. Those 9.2s that were help dear in the 1980s are now red headed the stepchild from the viewpoint of the modern collector. I think that is what the other poster means by you "living in the past". |
||
| Post 255 • IP flag post | ||
|
I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
|
drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown While we are talking about a moving target as grading companies change their standards or new entrants such as CBCS come on the scene (with their own take on things) but there are quite a few dealers and professionals that have been buying, selling, and grading comics for decades. Many (not all) of these dealers who have made a living selling both slabbed and raw, unslabbed books have a pretty good handle on what the true grade of a book is. Knowing the difference between a 7.5 and a 6.5 can mean a $40,000 profit if you are buying an ungraded copy of Amazing Fantasy 15 from someone else who does not know the difference. The dealers that are able to profit from this knowledge could tell you the true grade of a book. |
||
| Post 256 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos I wanted them to explain exactly what they were trying to get at, because the point they're trying to make isn't the point they think I'm making. This discussion has nothing to do with "living in the past." Doesn't do much to advance the discussion, but it does make for a nice soundbite. That said, back in the 80's and before, there wasn't anything remotely like "9.2" or "9.6" (and I understand that's not the point you're making; I use the term "would would become X.X in later years", and such.) Those terms weren't invented until the 90's, and wouldn't be commonplace until CGC in the early 00's. Up until and through the 80's, there were 3 grades: Good, Fine, and Mint. "N-Mint" replaced "Mint" in the 1989 OPG, and a fourth grade, "VF", was added for key books, I want to say in 1993 (the year after the first Grading Guide was published), and then those four grades: Good, Fine. VF, and NM, went title wide by the late 90's. In 2003, the current grades...Gd VG Fn VF VF/NM and NM (later reduced to NM-) were incorporated. All that to say...no, there's nothing "in the past" about the difference between a 9.0 and a 7.5, because no one talked in those terms until the CGC era, which we're still in. I've argued elsewhere, many, many times (and, I think, in this very thread!) that the problems of the past...that someone would call something "mint", while another would call it "VG"...have been greatly mitigated by the advent of CGC. As I've said before...the fact that people think it's "absolutely insane" to suggest the difference between a 9.0 and a 7.5 isn't THAT great is testament to the fact of how far we have come...good AND bad. Back in the bad old days, there could often be a full grade difference, or two, or even three, and who could say otherwise? My point remains: to those who understand grading, the difference in PHYSICAL preservation of a comic graded 9.0 and one graded 7.5 is not THAT great, especially when considering the way it was "in the olden days." ADMITTEDLY BROAD? Yes. Anything at ALL like it used to be? Not even close. No one is saying the AVERAGE 7.5 is only slightly different from the AVERAGE 9.0. There's enough for reasonably experienced graders to know the difference. But for the books that are NOT average, the difference isn't that great, and depends on many factors, factors that can be of great benefit to those with an open mind. |
||
| Post 257 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos There's no such thing as the "true grade" of a comic. The grade of a comic is arrived at by consensus. That consensus exists because people with experience agree that this book is in a particular grade. Steve Borock has said, on these boards, that he wishes he could grade a book 9.7 (he could, but that's another discussion.) So, what's the true grade? 9.6? 9.8? 9.7 can't, because it doesn't exist...yet. I've got decades of experience buying, selling, and especially grading comics, and I wouldn't say there's such thing as a "true" grade for anything. Close? Sure. That's how the market works. But exact? No, because you're dealing in a subjective analysis of a tangible item. Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos That's not correct. No one "knows the grade" of any particular book until it's actually been graded. Close? Oh yes. Dead on? A lot of the time, sure. 100%? No. I can show you examples of books that the same grader graded differently on different days. What happened in between? Nothing. Grading is subjective. Those experienced dealers have things reviewed all the time. Why? Because they don't agree with the grade (regardless of why, whether their motive is self-serving or not.) There is no such thing as the "true grade" of a tangible item, because...grading is subjective. |
||
| Post 258 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
|
Kaleljll private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DocBrown That's not correct. No one "knows the grade" of any particular book until it's actually been graded. Close? Oh yes. Dead on? A lot of the time, sure. 100%? No. I can show you examples of books that the same grader graded differently on different days. What happened in between? Nothing. Grading is subjective. Those experienced dealers have things reviewed all the time. Why? Because they don't agree with the grade (regardless of why, whether their motive is self-serving or not.) There is no such thing as the "true grade" of a tangible item, because...grading is subjective.  |
||
| Post 259 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
|
poka private msg quote post Address this user | |
Still having  |
||
| Post 260 • IP flag post | ||
|
I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
|
drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
| DocBrown - It seems you are trying to move the goal posts and make grading more subjectivr than it really is. Not sure if my response regarding living in the past went over your head or not but if your thinking were stuck in the 1980s or early 1990s you would not see a 9.2 but would simply call the book a NM or VF/NM depending on how you evaluated its grade. Just because an ebay seller calls his Fine+ book Near Mint does not make it so. Depending on your skill as a grader that "strong 7.5" could really be a 7.0 while that "weak 9.0" could really be a 9.4. Some flaws bother me more than others. I hate books with promunent spine ticks and generally avoid buying raw books with any color breaking spine ticks at sll unless the price is very low. I also have a problem with golden and silver age books with dirty looking back covers. To me these two flaws should take much more off of the grade than they actually do. While books can get hammered for corner damage or a missing staple these flawe do not take much away from the eye appeal of the book. Grading appears to be objective because it takes a lot of time and experience to master leaving a wide range of skill levels among those attempting to discern the grade of each book. |
||
| Post 261 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos Nope. Just trying to make sure it is understood that there is, and always will be, an element of subjectivity to it, no matter how "fine tuned" it can get. That's why there's no such thing as a "true grade" of anything. Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos Nope, didn't go over my head. Not what I was thinking at all. As an aside...we still have nomenclature attached to numeric grades. I understand that CGC abandoned that a decade+ ago, but that doesn't mean it's not still the case. Regardless, whether you call a book a VF/NM or a 9.0, you're still talking about the exact same thing. Let me be crystal clear on this: even disregarding the nomenclature, a 9.2 can be a strong 9.0 on one day, and a weak 9.4 on still another. That's because: 1. Grading is subjective, and 2. The differences in actual physical preservation between these grades is very small. They tend to be magnified in perception because of the great differences in price. That, however, is merely a construct of the market, and doesn't actually reflect substantive differences in condition. Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos True. Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos That wouldn't depend on MY skill as a grader. I wouldn't call a strong 7.5 and have it GRADE (as opposed to "really be"...remember, all grades are just opinions) 7.0. I'm referring specifically to MY experience and ability when I'm talking about "strong 7.5s" and "weak 9.0s." And, lest that sound boastful, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of people just like me, who would (almost) never call something a "weak 9.0" and have it end up in a 9.4 holder, unless something went radically wrong. Yes, for the average person who doesn't know about grading, sure. But then, they probably wouldn't understand what a "strong X.X" and "weak Y.Y" actually means. Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos Exactly. Grading is subjective. What bothers you doesn't necessarily bother me, and doesn't necessarily bother a grader, and vice versa. Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos You could have 300 years of experience, be the smartest guy in the room, and you still wouldn't be able to grade the same book the exact same grade on multiple different tries, with the POSSIBLE exception of 9.8 or above, just because there's so little to work against. But if you handed the greatest grader in the world a book, and in Feb he graded it 7.5...and then hand it back to him in March, he may grade it 8.0. Or 7.0. He may grade it the same 5 times in a row. But ask him to do it 10 times...or 20, or 50, or 100...and there will be change. That's the subjective nature of grading, and it's a good thing. |
||
| Post 262 • IP flag post | ||
|
I had no way of knowing that 9.8 graded copies signed by Adam Hughes weren't what you were looking for.
|
drchaos private msg quote post Address this user | |
| DocBrown - Yes, graders (people) can be inconsistant and even the best graders can make mistakes. With that said the inability of the grader or grading company to discern the grade accurately does not mean that the grade of the book is any different than it was before they evsluated it. You are concerning yourself more with the result (grade put on the slab by the grading company) than the value of the book. If I submit a high value golden age book to thd grading company and it comes back to me with a 9.2 there is nothing stopping me from cracking the book out of the slab and resubmitting the book in an attempt to get a higher grade if warranted. |
||
| Post 263 • IP flag post | ||
 COLLECTOR
|
DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| No one here said it wasn't subjective. Several of us here do however feel that a grade jump between 7.5 and 9.0 on the exact same book without anything having been done to it in between is slightly beyond subjective. You disagree, we get it. No amount of pouring out your opinion though will change our opinions however. We are going to have to agree to disagree. |
||
| Post 264 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego No one here said that they did. Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego What do you mean? An average 7.5 and an average 9.0? Then we are in agreement. Do you mean a strong 7.5 and a weak 9.0? If you can see that, you'll begin to see my point. Not sure why this is so controversial, even to the point of calling it "absolutely insane." Quote: Originally Posted by DL Who is we...? I thought everyone here had their own account? I wasn't aware that anyone spoke for anyone else, that we all speak for ourselves. Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego With the respect that is due, you don't speak for anyone but you. So that would be YOUR opinion, not everyone else's. I'm sure you wouldn't want anyone to speak for you, especially if they didn't accurately represent your opinion, would you? As far as "no amount...will change your opinion"...ok. And? Do you think you (and whomever you claim to represent) are the only opinions reading this? And do you think that I'm here to change anyone's opinion? I am here to talk about the things that interest me, as are you and everyone else. If I change someone's mind about something, great. If I don't, great. But that's not the goal. Quote: Originally Posted by DarthLego You are free to agree or disagree with anything you wish. I do not expect everyone to agree with what I say, and neither should you. If you want to agree to disagree, you are more than welcome to. This being a chatboard, however, I'm sure you won't have a problem if others wish to discuss it, as long as they find the discussion interesting. |
||
| Post 265 • IP flag post | ||
|
Collector
|
DocBrown private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos True, but I'm not talking about mistakes. I'm talking about plain old, everyday normal subjectivity. Quote: Originally Posted by drchaos If, by grade, you mean "the physical condition of the book as it exists", then I would agree with you. Barring further damage or improvement, that state doesn't change, and is, in that sense, absolute...until something happens to the book. If you mean, however, the grade as in "the assigned numerical evaluation by a grader or graders at a grading company", then that's what is subjective. Quote: Originally Posted by dc Not at all. I sell comic books for a living, I'm keenly aware of the value of the books that I sell. I am only talking about the ways in which comic books are graded, and how those grades are arrived at. Quote: Originally Posted by dc Absolutely! In that case, you didn't agree with the grade, and since we live in a market reality, where the opinion of the average Joe on the street doesn't matter at all, but the number on the case is everything, if you didn't agree, you should feel totally free to have it re-evaluated. |
||
| Post 266 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Doc, you know what, I'm going go ahead an agree with your argument. Looking at the suggested number of allowable defects on page 24 of the new OSGG. A strong 7.5 can have as few as 5 flaws. A weak 9.0 can have as many as 6 flaws. You're right, it's not a huge leap.  |
||
| Post 267 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
@DarthLego dont give in to the dark side  If we simplify 7.5 vs 9.0 to 5 vs 6, then 8.0 and 8.5 shouldnt exist. Additionally, a big part of grading is eye appeal. There is a significant difference in eye appeal between most all 7.5 and 9.0 books! I shall now prepare myself for..  |
||
| Post 268 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
| @shrewbeer I am the Dark Side lol For what it's worth. There are clear differences between books ("on average", or "more often than not" ) graded 9.0 and 7.5. However, going by the grading standards set forth by Overstreet, there is a statiscal probability that the same book graded by two different people could fluctuate from a 7.5 to a 9.0 given (and only given) that it could be considered a "strong 7.5" or a "weak 9.0". We are talking a book with no more than 6 flaws and no less than 5 flaws. You drop to the book only having 4 flaws and you move the goalpost to being between 8.5 and 9.0. You can't drop down to 7.5 with only 4 flaws. Because each grade has a range of minimum and maximum defects it creates possible overlap that you have to just do a judgement call on. So the scenario is statiscally possible, if however not very probable with day to day "average" books. |
||
| Post 269 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
|
KingNampa private msg quote post Address this user | |
 |
||
| Post 270 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
This is the Overtreet chart I'm refering to. |
||
| Post 271 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
|
SpeedforceKJ private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos I just experienced this from cbcs myself. I got my Flash 197 back from them thinking I would get a 9.8 and it came back 9.6 Reason...a very tiny ding in the lower left corner(that I still think happened in transit) Still though, I'm happy with it. |
||
| Post 272 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Funny how there's another thread talking great eye appeal in .5s, which is entirely possible as well. We could all argue over grading for years, and all be simultaneously right and wrong all at the same time. That makes for a great argument  Going full circle back to the original argument, this is precicely why I use a grading company. One that I personally believe in , so that I can look at a grade and have instant trust that it is correct, and more importantly, consistent by their own standards. I think that we have more than established that these companies play by their own set of interpreted "rules". CGC Being more business geared, CBCS more the collector "purist" ; thus comparisons are difficult, and in turn warrant justified text walls when attempting to do so. Bottom line, I like the rules here better, and everyone has to decide for themselves which set they personally believe in  |
||
| Post 273 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
DarthLego private msg quote post Address this user | |
I'm still anti text walls. |
||
| Post 274 • IP flag post | ||
 COLLECTOR
|
JWKyle private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by shrewbeerThe only problem with this statement if they were "purist" they wouldn't be pressing books. I'm actually surprised pressing hasn't been more of a issue on these boards. Some people would rather burn the book then have it pressed. Just so it's out there pressing or good pressing I should say doesn't bother me. |
||
| Post 275 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by JWKyle Purist in terms of grading. We can get into wether or not they should be pressing, but I think we did already in the other stickied thread. Hearing from Steve that the graders cant find out if a book was pressed and by whom, that put the issue to bed for me. |
||
| Post 276 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
|
VillageIdiot private msg quote post Address this user | |
Insanity, is this thread  |
||
| Post 277 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
|
Jerkfro private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by drchaos Who's to say what is or is not the "true" grade? |
||
| Post 278 • IP flag post | ||
|
COLLECTOR
|
shrewbeer private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by Jerkfro This guy  . Generally accepted throughout the industry since at least 1992 as the foremost published expert on exactly how a book is to be graded.  *photo credit Alan Light |
||
| Post 279 • IP flag post | ||
 Collector
|
MetalPSI private msg quote post Address this user | |
Quote:Originally Posted by DarthLego Advocate for illiteracy. I applaud your wanting to be discrete but that advocacy has been active since the 50's or so. Glad to know it works though. |
||
| Post 280 • IP flag post | ||
Thread locked. No more posts permitted. Return home.