Monthly (Comic) Book Club - September - Minis by Miller: Ronin and RCvsT18332
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dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I think some brief context would be helpful for Robocop vs Terminator. The comic was released in 1992 so a year after Terminator 2: Judgement Day and two years after Robocop 2, which Frank Miller wrote, those his script was changed significantly by the time it reached the screen. Miller would also write Robocop 3, though that was changed even more, including an ill-advised studio-decision to make the film PG-13 instead of rated R like past entries had been. Miller’s original stories for both Robocop 2 and 3 would later be adapted in comic book form as Frank Miller’s Robocop and Roboco: Last Stand. As such, Robocop vs The Terminator can be seen as the first part in a Robocop trilogy by Miller  Curiously, by the time the comic was released, Robocop 3 would have probably been finished or close to as the studio sat on the film for about a year before releasing it in 1993. I bring this up primarily because of an observation I had made when reading Robocop: Last Stand (aka Miller’s original Roboco 3) which I will bring up later when we get to it in the reading |
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| Post 26 • IP flag post | ||
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| The first issue is an introduction. We begin in the future war of the Terminator movies. Skynet is on the brink of ultimate victory but one human soldier manages to break into a Skynet facility and learns that Skynet gained its sentience from Robocop whose human self-awareness interfacing with his programming allowed Skynet to become more than the defense tool it was created as. She escapes into the past to kill Alwx Murphy and prevent Skynet from ever gaining self-awareness. She succeeds but the terminators in the future detect the disruption in the time stream and send their own terminators back to stop her. This time the Terminators injur her and prevent her from killing Robocop. Robocop manages to get a shot off and sees some of their robotic endoskeleton as the terminators flee. Overall, I think the first issue does a good job of portraying the two worlds it is combining. We might not get mountains of skulls but the barren future world overrun with robotic milling machines stamping out the last remnants of humanity feels like it belongs in the Terminator world. In Robocop’s Deteoit we get a glimpse of the city run amok. Very much fitring with the Robocop setting. We see crime out of control, we see guns and violence everywhere, and ED-209 units malfunctioning. We’re just missing the yuppies and the over the top commercials and it’d feel right at home in the Robocop movies. As far as characters go, the issue moves very quickly. I feel that contributes to a feeling of urgency and efficiency in her character. She’s on a mission and she’s not wasting any time completing it. As for Robocop, we seem to find in something of a depression. Distanced from humanity he’s become obsessed with his work, spending and and days on the beat. It may seem a bit strange to see him in this headspace since he seemed more well-adjusted at the end of Robocop before having something of a character reset and readjusting at the end of Robocop 2. Still, Robocop’s situation is unique so it’s not like there’s a ton of help available so having him relapse doesn’t feel out of place for me. Compared to Ronin, Miller’s far more restrained in this issue. We get his rain-drenched, hard-boiled narration but far more sparingly. No blocks of text that overwhelm the page. The text does its job without overstaying its welcome. Simonson’s art is solid the entire way through. I feel like robotics and machinery are some of the hardest things to nail consistently in a comic book. Typically those movie props have a ton of setail and the way light shines across them contributes so much to their iconic looks and that level of detail can rarely be accurately represented across an entire comic book. I stead you often end up with under detailed shapes that vaguely resemble what they are meant to be and that tends to kill my enthusiasm for the comic. I think Simonson manages to nail Robocop in nearly every frame. He does reduce the detail on occasion but otherwise he makes Robocop look like Robocop and that goes a long way. The Terminators have seen a bit of a redesign to keep the iconography intact but making them function more easily for the medium. Simonson’s layouts are straightforward and easy to follow and he breaks up the action with large splashes to really show off Robo on the page. The inks and colors do a great job of capturing the moody emotion in the shadows and conveying the metallic surfaces, particularly in those large splashes. The issue also drops a few references to Robocop 3 that hadn’t been released yet. Dr Lazarus thay was knocked out at the police station is the same doctor that helped Robo in the movie. Cadillac Heights, where the Greek restaurant the guy tried to take Murphy’s ex-wife to is is the same neighborhood that they fought to defend in the movie. Considering Cadillac Heights isn’t a warzone as it is in Robocop 3, I think we can say that this takes place before the movie. |
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| Post 27 • IP flag post | ||
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| Issue 2 begins with another glimpse at the end of humanity as the terminator hunt down the last human and are finally victorious against humanity. In the past we get some comic relief with the ED-209 guarding the hospital. It kills a dog and malfunctions but responds to Robocop and even gives him a salute. The death of the dog isn’t plaued for the gore so it’s not too difficult to swallow as a comedic moment. I don’t actually recall too many of those in Ronin. I really like that Miller has Robo and the ED-209 on the same side. Yes the first movie had them as enemies but that was mostly due to the events of the movie. After that it would make sense that the two would co-operate. Still many derivative media tend to just stick with what was in the movies without really exploring the internal logic of the world. Anyways, Robocop visits the time traveler in the hospital to hear her story. Murphy then plugs himself into various defense networks to see if there is evidence for the time traveler’s claims. It seems he finds Skynet and comes out believing her story. Knowing the Terminators must come back to her to complete their mission, Robo goes off to prepare. We get some more ED-209 comic relief as one tries (and fails) to direct traffic before Robocop recruits it. Elsewhere, the terminators also prepare for their attack. They rob the police armory, in what feels like a far less clandestine approach than Arnold’s in the first movie. We get yet more ED-209 fun when, after directed by Robocop to scan for cybernetic activity, the two ED-209’s shoot at each other, massively damaging one in the process. I also really like how direct and polite the ED-209’s are with Robocop. They constantly refer to him as “sir” and just overall act like a hard-working, but not very smart, workers. What’s next is a gigantic battle that pays due respect to the two properties. The terminators seeing Robocop defending the time traveler decide he needs to be subdued and forced to merge with skynet so he can fulfill his destiny. One terminator attacks the remaining ED-209 so the third can get inside and kill the time traveler. The two ED-209s manage to bring down one of the terminators. The one i side gets atomized by the time traveler, who got her plasma rifle back from Dr Lazarus. Meanwhile, Robocop is in a fierce hand-to-hand brawl with the remaining terminator. After a long and brutal fight, Robo emerges victorious, though heavily damaged. I thought this was a very fun issue. The terminators felt a lot like Arnold’s character in the first movie, which makes sense since they’re terminators and it’d make sense they have similar programming. Instead of robbing a gun shop, they rob the police armory which allows the book to check off another Terminator reference in their attack on the police station. You could argue that maybe they should have been a bit more stealthy but maybe they figured it was too critical for stealth as the time traveler killing Robocop would mean Skynet would never exist as it would in the future. The fight itself is incredibly exciting. All the hits feel suitably big and painful and all the gunshots and explosions feel powerful. Miller also does well to let the action speak for itself and Simonson’s art is easy to follow, which could not always be said of Miller’s fights in Ronin. Basically, I’m really glad the creators let the fight play out over almost half the issue. A lot of times you climactic fights that only last a page or two but this issue really delivers on the Robocop vs Terminator title |
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| Post 28 • IP flag post | ||
 If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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| My familiarity with Robocop and Terminator, like most people I would imagine, comes from the movies. The first Robocop movie is a classic. The second I've seen a few times but it's been a while, and they were probably mostly edited for network TV. I can't remember seeing the third more than maybe twice. And I watched the reboot, which was ok but not nearly as biting as the original. I think I've also seen all the Terminator movies, but none more than T1 and T2. Being a native Detroiter, I'm also happy to tell you that people crowdfunded a Robocop statute. However, I'm not sure it's on display anywhere. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/detroit-city/2022/01/22/detroit-robocop-statue-moved-to-display-space-walley-bing-venus-bronze-gikas/6609591001/ |
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| Post 29 • IP flag post | ||
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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| Issue 1 was a fun read. You get a fairly standard Terminator intro. Mankind is on its last legs but one person (I think she goes unnamed?) has made it to the inside to figure out how to stop the rise of the machines. It turns out that Skynet really got going due to Robocop's integration of human mind and computing. She travels back in time to Detroit to kill Alex Murphy before he becomes Robocop. Cut to Robocop doing Robocop things, until the woman kills him. Sensing the disruption in the future, the machines send back Terminators who stop Robocop's death, and maybe kill the woman. Robocop sees the shooter well enough to figure out that it isn't human. Simonson seems like a good match for the story. His blocky style reminds you of Miller (maybe a coincidence), and you can recognize it if you've seen some of his Thor work. I will say that the Terminator doesn't translate as well to the comics. Any of those intro scenes in Terminator movies, where you just see the robot versions walking across a field of skulls, the Terminators are frightening. Here they don't have the same visual impact. As for Miller, writing an uber-violent book seems natural. The Robocop world of Detroit where everyone has a gun is up his alley. It's a little funny when everyone pulls out their gun but then has better things to do when the woman fights back. Everyone at a Pistons game (they used to play at the Palace at Auburn Hills) having a gun seems like a stretch though. The NBA would never allow it, even if this was written 12 years before the Malice at the Palace. Speaking of which, I do appreciate that Miller looked up a few local things. Livonia is a nice little town right next to Detroit, Cadillac Heights isn't far away (technically a neighborhood inside Detroit), and Cass Corridor is a tougher part of town. |
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| Post 30 • IP flag post | ||
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| #2 starts with another nice Detroit touch, Laimbeer Memorial Hospital. I don't think they'll ever name a hospital after him except for ironically, but Bill Laimbeer was my favorite Piston from the Bad Boys era. The EO209s give a good opportunity for a little levity. They're badly designed, taking everything literally and fixing every problem with something like a minigun. When Robocop asks them to scan for cybernetic activity and they immediately try to shoot him, that's a solid joke. The Robocop-Terminator fight is a good one, but it's a little hard for me to imagine Robocop in an actual fistfight. He's so stiff in the movies. |
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| Post 31 • IP flag post | ||
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| Opening up #3 reminds me - I wonder what the folks in the 'special thanks' section did? Art Adams, Gracine Tanaka, Adam Hughes, Lynn Varley, and John Byrne are some pretty recognizable names. The timequakes are a little odd compared to a lot of other time travel movies. When someone changes the past, like when Robocop kills himself, people in the future don't realize it. The past is the way it always was, so there's no sudden change. If anyone remembers the 'old' past it's because they have some special ability. I guess it serves to give the Terminators time to respond and send more robots back but it seems a pinch out of place. They did the same thing in #1 but the timequake, or the reaction to it, seems more obvious in this issue. Overall, #3 brings the real conflict to the story. The new Terminators brutally attack Robocop and forcefully attach him to the computers, triggering Skynet. Robocop responds by sending the code version of his consciousness throughout the system, allowing him to rebuild himself in the future. I don't remember much about the movie Robocop 3, but I do remember him having a jetpack. |
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| Post 32 • IP flag post | ||
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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| #4 wraps everything with a lot of time travel and some interesting ideas, but it was a little flat for me. Having a Robocop army fight a Terminator army sounds like a great idea, but it's brief and we don't get much action beyond a two-page spread. Robocop becoming more robot-like in the future, because he is a full robot at this point, also could have been an interesting twist but there's no real tension. He just keeps acting like Robocop. But the issue accomplishes what it probably should, which is returning everything to how it was at the beginning of the series for Robocop while defeating the Terminators in the future. On the whole I liked issues 1 and 2 more than 3 and 4. That makes it a fair companion to Ronin for me, which I liked less as it went on. They also both had sexy ladies acting out male fantasies. Miller's gonna Miller. |
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| Issue 3 feels more like a hinge or connective tissue between two parts of the story and gets us from the past to the future of the Terminators. Robocop tries to die to prevent the rise of the Terminators but the terminators use their time travel technology to undo it and force Robocop to merge with Skynet thus triggering Judgement day. Alex Murphy’s consciousness remains in cyberspace for decades u til he is able to exploit a program flaw and take over a terminator factory. He rebuilds himself using future technology and goes off to fight the terminators in their own time. So back to the Robocop 3 production timeline. Robocop 3 was filmed and then shelved for over a year by the studio. Robocop vs Terminator was written in this gap and I’m pretty sure recycled ideas from Robocop 3 that didn’t make it in or weren’t done justice, and in case Robocop 3 was never actually released. Eventually Miller’s original version of Robocop 3 would be released in comic book form as Robocop: Last Stand and its interesting to compare the two. In Last Stand, the Japanese androids seen in the film are more numerous and are not unlike the Terminators we’ve seen here. At one point, Robocop is critically injured by one of the androids and is taken to an OCP lab where he is dismantled. Look familiar?  Meanwhile, an ally of Robocop’s an analogue for Dr Lazarus in this story, had saved her consciousness digitally before she’s killed. When OCP unwittingly accesses the data, she is basically revived as a digital ghost as Murphy existed in Robocop vs Terminator.  Finally, she takes over the OCP lab and uses the facility to rebuild Robocop better with newer technology and flight capabilities. Again, this should be very familiar.  Heck, she even used the facility to build herself a new body, not unlike Murphy reviving himself in Robocop vs Terminator |
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| Issue 4 wraps things up with Robocop joining the resistance against Skynet. He’s damaged while stopping a nuclear attack by Skynet and while repairing himself, Flo gives him the idea to create an army of terminators to help them fight. While the army of RoboTerminators keep the main force busy, Robocop infiltrates Skynet who tries to stop him by appealing to his human desires but Robocop is snapped out of it by Flo’s dying words. Robocop self-destructs the terminators and destroys Skynet in the future. He then sends himself back in time to destroy skynet in the past thus preventing the terminators from ever being created. As the timeline restructures itself, skynet is able to send one last terminator to try and stop it but overshoots its mark and is destroyed by a dinosaur. I spotted one last instance of Miller cribbing from his Robocop 3 script as Flo’s dying words are the same words Robocop’s partner Anne says in the film and comic  The brief glimpse we get of Flo in the peaceful future reminds me an awful lot of the unused “Future Coda” ending for Terminator 2. James Cameron had originally scripted the future ending but decided to change it late in the production to make the future more open-ended rather than setting it in stone. I know Terminator 2 had a special edition home video release with additional footage released before Robocop vs Terminator was released but I don’t know if the alternate ending was included so I wonder if it was something Miller intentionally brought in or if it was just coincidence. I like the story Miller laid out in the final issue but I do agree that it feels a little rushed. I think maybe they should’ve gone with a longer final issue to really let things breathe in the final act. An army of Robocops vs an army of terminators really should be a bigger event than the one-on-one fight we got in issue 2. To Simonson’s credit, the battle scenes are suitably epic but you just don’t have the brutality of the earlier fight. To Miller’s credit, I do think he got what he needed into the issue. Aside from making the final battle that much grander I’m not sure what else a hypothetical giant-sized version of the issue would need. We could have more moments with Flo and Robo. They could flesh out the human side of army in the final battle. Make Murphy’s temptation by Skynet a slower, deeper burn. And make the Terminator’s defeat in the future less abrupt. All that COULD be done but I’m not certain it would be necessary nor do I think it would elevate the issue and overall story as much as you’d think. So overall, I really enjoyed this story. Dark Horse had done Aliens vs Predator a few years earlier and did it well and it was cool to see them bring out major talent to make this story work. I liked that Miller found an rational story thread to bring the two properties together as a lot of other crossovers just throw the two together somewhat randomly. In Superman vs Terminator Sarah and a young John Connor run into Superman in Metropolis while being attacked by Terminators. In Batman/Alien Batman’s investigating a vanished Waynetech scientist in the Amazon when he’s attacked by Xenomorphs. Making Robocop, a cyborg, integral to the development of Skynet’s self-awareness is a logical connection and it makes the two universes feel cohesive. Miller, I think, does a good job of capturing the feeling of Robocop’s world, probably because he defined a lot of it in the films, himself. He also expands a bit on the terminators by introducing terminators of various shapes, sizes, and capabilities. At this point in the movies we’d only seen the infiltrating terminators and the large war machines in the future. Miller also gave Skynet a voice which we’d only really see starting in Terminator Salvation. |
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| Post 35 • IP flag post | ||
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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xkonk private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I haven't seen the Robocop movies in a while, but do you remember if they say Robocop is more literally a robot? My memory of the first one is how Murphy chafes against the programming that's been added on once he becomes Robocop, certainly suggesting he's a human at his core. The wrap-up for this miniseries says the opposite, that he's a robot and what's left of Murphy is a computer program meant to act somewhat like him. | ||
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dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user | |
| I’m not sure I understand the discrepancy you’re seeing. In a literal sense, Robocop is more robot than man but critically, has a human brain. In a more figurative sense, there’s always a balancing act between Robocop’s humanity and his robotic side. What we saw in the last two issues of the comic is that Murphy literally becomes a computer program after he is interfaced with skynet. So when he recreates himself in the future he’s a terminator running Murphy OS. So while he’s in the future he feels that constant connection with skynet and the last of his humanity slipping away. I think most of the time we see him in the past, particularly before and after the main conflict show Murphy is very much human at his core. At the beginning he’s suffering from depression and obsesses with his work as a coping mechanism. At the end he realizes how tired he is (a very non-robot thing to feel) and that it is time to rest. |
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| Post 37 • IP flag post | ||
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If the viagra is working you should be well over a 9.8.
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Quote:Originally Posted by dielinfinite I guess this is the part I missed. I thought they were saying Murphy was already a program, and that was what allowed skynet to interface with him and him to copy himself. That would be weird because it means Robocop is a robot and not really Murphy. I didn't catch that skynet made him a program when they connected. |
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