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CBCS Official Statement18276

Collector dfoster43 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertofredrico
Not being able to locate some books in your building is one thing, but to me the most troubling aspect of this situation is the revelation that CBCS is taking books that are submitted to them, shipping them to somewhere else to be received into their database, and then shipped back to CBCS for grading.

Obviously, us submitters did not know about this until now. I wonder, did their insurance company know?

Is this other location somewhere else in Texas? Some other state? Some other country?

And is there just one off-site location that they were being shipped to? Are there two of these off-site "database enterers"? Five? Twenty?


If they're not already slabbed, doesn't the very act of bundling them up, packing them, shipping them to have them entered into the CBCS System by a remote employee then getting packed back up and shipped back to CBCS for grading/slabbing all create MULTIPLE Possible points of failure when damage to the book - however slight - could occur and thus any grading done AFTER all this would likely be a LESSER GRADE than had all that not occurred and entry done locally?

Or am I missing something? I haven't seen this mentioned yet as a point of discussion and/or outrage.
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Collector Supertom private msg quote post Address this user
Another thing that I question is, aren't three graders supposed to look at each book? How is that done if they're being shipped to someone's house, a Zoom call?

Again, if there was that much of a concern about working conditions in mid 2021 on top of already being flooded with backlog, then they should have just stopped taking submissions. Steve B. himself even said Beckett was smart for halting card submissions.
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Collector comicsforme private msg quote post Address this user
About time.
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Have I told you about the time I dropped off 3,000 comics at SDCC? Scifinator private msg quote post Address this user
@etapi65 - Perhaps that is part of the investigation, to confirm that the loss is isolated or not.

@Supertom - I could be wrong, but what I saw was not that comics were being graded off site, the only extracurricular activity was possible offsite check-in.
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Collector Travis private msg quote post Address this user
Or if they were so short staffed. limit the amount that can be submitted to the amount they can actually do. so people won’t have to wait a year in que lines. They still backed up from Covid they never seen a influx or were prepared for the amount of submissions sent to them is my guess. They still backed up I recon they will start seeing less submissions I guess from all the crazy stuff going on with them. I kind of want to send them some more of my books but I also think it might be a bad idea. But a good idea if less are submitted might get rushed threw quicker damed if you do damed if you don’t.
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would be nice to have a snugger fit. Sigur_Ros private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scifinator
@Supertom - I could be wrong, but what I saw was not that comics were being graded off site, the only extracurricular activity was possible offsite check-in.

You're not wrong.
Books were being sent out for check-in then sent back to CBCS for everything else. At least according to the CMC statement (but who really knows).

It's funny, every YouTuber I've watched about this are going on and on about books being graded at peoples' homes.
They're posting the CMC statement, but they aren't reading it.

The rush to be first kept 'em from educating themselves beforehand.
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Collector Travis private msg quote post Address this user
Well I guess we can be glade cbcs didn’t grade any comic books that had a plastic cover stabled to them Debacle. Cbcs is like here hold my beer cgc I show ya how it’s done.
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Suck it up, buttercup!! KatKomics private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis
Or if they were so short staffed. limit the amount that can be submitted to the amount they can actually do. so people won’t have to wait a year in que lines. They still backed up from Covid they never seen a influx or were prepared for the amount of submissions sent to them is my guess. They still backed up I recon they will start seeing less submissions I guess from all the crazy stuff going on with them. I kind of want to send them some more of my books but I also think it might be a bad idea. But a good idea if less are submitted might get rushed threw quicker damed if you do damed if you don’t.


gonna guess there will be dip in submissions when you lose a few hundred books and rumors of a name change and incredible TATs for pressing that have no end in sight since they introduced an express level with guaranteed TATs (it also guarantees that non express will take an eternity since all those orders jump in line before them)
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Collector Qalyar private msg quote post Address this user
Lost books suck, but my biggest concern about this whole process was the apparent revelation that CBCS was taking books they had received in the corporate facility, and then shipping them to employees' residence, having those employees handle the books without any likely oversight, and then shipping them back to the "secure" facility.

Transportation is a casino game, and the losers accrue damage. I get that COVID placed crazy demands on everyone, but from my perspective, this is just terrifying to contemplate.
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would be nice to have a snugger fit. Sigur_Ros private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qalyar
Lost books suck, but my biggest concern about this whole process was the apparent revelation that CBCS was taking books they had received in the corporate facility, and then shipping them to employees' residence, having those employees handle the books without any likely oversight, and then shipping them back to the "secure" facility.

Transportation is a casino game, and the losers accrue damage. I get that COVID placed crazy demands on everyone, but from my perspective, this is just terrifying to contemplate.

I don't know if they've stated the books were shipped via UPS/etc...or shipped via company truck. There's a difference.
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Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigur_Ros
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qalyar
Lost books suck, but my biggest concern about this whole process was the apparent revelation that CBCS was taking books they had received in the corporate facility, and then shipping them to employees' residence, having those employees handle the books without any likely oversight, and then shipping them back to the "secure" facility.

Transportation is a casino game, and the losers accrue damage. I get that COVID placed crazy demands on everyone, but from my perspective, this is just terrifying to contemplate.

I don't know if they've stated the books were shipped via UPS/etc...or shipped via company truck. There's a difference.


From what I read and have screenshots of, they were reshipped “out of state” to an employee’s home. No idea where that employee lives nor do I want to. However, Dallas to Shreveport, LA is over a 2 hour drive, Dallas to Texarkana, AR is over a 2 hour drive, Dallas to Ardmore, OK or Durant, OK is over 1 1/2 hour drive.

(I used those towns as they seem to be the closest towns I could find over the Texas state border from Dallas).
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Collector Qalyar private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigur_Ros
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qalyar
Lost books suck, but my biggest concern about this whole process was the apparent revelation that CBCS was taking books they had received in the corporate facility, and then shipping them to employees' residence, having those employees handle the books without any likely oversight, and then shipping them back to the "secure" facility.

Transportation is a casino game, and the losers accrue damage. I get that COVID placed crazy demands on everyone, but from my perspective, this is just terrifying to contemplate.

I don't know if they've stated the books were shipped via UPS/etc...or shipped via company truck. There's a difference.


One is certainly better than the other. How they were packed or repacked for the transit matters, too. I suspect they were shipped in the original packaging the customer provided. That is, they weren't opened, just forwarded on to the remote indexing location. But that means the additional outbound transport has similar risks of damage as the original shipment did. Transportation is a major risk factor for damage; just as some books suffer injury on the way TO the grading facility, there's a nonzero chance of injury from this sort of shuffling about.

Handling by individual employees outside of the controlled facility is its own concern, of course.

The huge stack of lost books from a single customer is, of course, the banner issue here. But if this COVID mitigation process worked even a little bit like initial reports suggest it did, I think it's likely that there were other problems created by that process. And because most of them are far more subtle than 300+ missing books, we'll likely never be able to enumerate the rest.
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Steven McDonald posted this message in his group this morning. I am posting screenshots of the post with his permission.



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Collector SixgunSamurai private msg quote post Address this user
How is the same company that took a stance against post manufacturing facsimile covers now talking about how some of the books they lost are “REPRINTABLE?!”
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Collector Qalyar private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunSamurai
How is the same company that took a stance against post manufacturing facsimile covers now talking about how some of the books they lost are “REPRINTABLE?!”


Wow, that's an entirely different bag of cats.

On the other hand, it sounds like the Counterpoint is doing the reprinting, and so I'll... leave further commentary of that situation to others, because my mother taught me that if I don't have something nice to say about a comic publisher, I shouldn't say anything at all.
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would be nice to have a snugger fit. Sigur_Ros private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunSamurai
How is the same company that took a stance against post manufacturing facsimile covers now talking about how some of the books they lost are “REPRINTABLE?!”

Stapled-on covers are quite a bit different than publisher reprints.
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
@SixgunSamurai they are being reprinted by the publisher. That's a totally different ballgame than a separate entity (company or individual) putting a new cover on a comic they did not publish. It's pretty cut and dry.
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Collector SixgunSamurai private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@SixgunSamurai they are being reprinted by the publisher. That's a totally different ballgame than a separate entity (company or individual) putting a new cover on a comic they did not publish. It's pretty cut and dry.


Yes, it’s cut and dry.
When comics go back to print it’s a second printing. It’s not the same thing as the comics that were lost.
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunSamurai
How is the same company that took a stance against post manufacturing facsimile covers now talking about how some of the books they lost are “REPRINTABLE?!”


Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunSamurai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@SixgunSamurai they are being reprinted by the publisher. That's a totally different ballgame than a separate entity (company or individual) putting a new cover on a comic they did not publish. It's pretty cut and dry.


Yes, it’s cut and dry.
When comics go back to print it’s a second printing. It’s not the same thing as the comics that were lost.


That wasn't your original comparison. As for it being a second printing, that may be noted on the label. Quite honestly, in the modern market, that will probably bump their value.
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Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Questions

1) What’s the over/under on an “official” statement being provided on how many books where reshipped outside of the Beckett/CBCS facility?

And

2) Would any of this come to light if it hadn’t effected one major account?
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Collector SixgunSamurai private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O

That wasn't your original comparison. As for it being a second printing, that may be noted on the label. Quite honestly, in the modern market, that will probably bump their value.


No, my comparison was about CBCS claiming the high moral stance against Post Manufacturing Facsimile Covers, but then being totally on board with Post Manufacturing Facsimile Second Printing as a “solution” to losing comics.
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Collector Qalyar private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunSamurai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
@SixgunSamurai they are being reprinted by the publisher. That's a totally different ballgame than a separate entity (company or individual) putting a new cover on a comic they did not publish. It's pretty cut and dry.


Yes, it’s cut and dry.
When comics go back to print it’s a second printing. It’s not the same thing as the comics that were lost.


Agreed. These will be de facto second printings, although I suspect they won't actually be distinguishable from the first printings unless you know the affected numbers (assuming these are numbered copies, as a very great many of Counterpoint's books are). If you care about the stated print runs of Counterpoint books, though, this should at least give you reason to pause and consider.

At the risk of being slightly off-topic here, I was really surprised by how many people seemed to think the Acetategate shenanigans were anything new. The way those books were created, and the apparent market manipulation involved was unquestionably skeevy, but I fail to see how it was functionally different than the New Dimension Comics "Archive Editions" of various issues of Eclipse's Miracleman, created by foil-stamping the covers of a large acquisition of new old stock, quite a bit after the fact. Both CGC and CBCS accept them, and grade them separately from the unaltered books. Individual collectors are, of course, free to try to chase them down as rarities or consider them stupid and ignore them.
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would be nice to have a snugger fit. Sigur_Ros private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunSamurai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O

That wasn't your original comparison. As for it being a second printing, that may be noted on the label. Quite honestly, in the modern market, that will probably bump their value.


No, my comparison was about CBCS claiming the high moral stance against Post Manufacturing Facsimile Covers, but then being totally on board with Post Manufacturing Facsimile Second Printing as a “solution” to losing comics.

It wasn't their solution. It was the solution the retailer sought with the publisher to try and help out his customers. You're simply trying to create drama.

Question, did you join 2 days ago just to argue about this topic?
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qalyar
The way those books were created, and the apparent market manipulation involved was unquestionably skeevy, but I fail to see how it was functionally different than the New Dimension Comics "Archive Editions" of various issues of Eclipse's Miracleman, created by foil-stamping the covers of a large acquisition of new old stock, quite a bit after the fact. Both CGC and CBCS accept them, and grade them separately from the unaltered books.


I'm not familiar with New Dimension Comics. Was one of these issues Miracleman #1? I just checked the CBCS population report and didn't find any listed for issue #1. CBCS does list two options for "New Dimension" in the search fields. I tried various combinations and could not get any to come up. Do you happen to have a picture of a New Dimension Comics Miracleman in a CBCS slab?



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Collector SixgunSamurai private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigur_Ros

It wasn't their solution. It was the solution the retailer sought with the publisher to try and help out his customers. You're simply trying to create drama.

Question, did you join 2 days ago just to argue about this topic?


I didn’t say it was their solution, I said they were on board with it. And it is weird to be on board with a post manufacturing entire comic so soon after making a statement about a post manufacturing cover.

I didn’t join two days ago to argue about this topic. I joined two days ago to learn about this topic and find out if there was a chance that my books were among those that had been lost.
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Collector Qalyar private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qalyar
The way those books were created, and the apparent market manipulation involved was unquestionably skeevy, but I fail to see how it was functionally different than the New Dimension Comics "Archive Editions" of various issues of Eclipse's Miracleman, created by foil-stamping the covers of a large acquisition of new old stock, quite a bit after the fact. Both CGC and CBCS accept them, and grade them separately from the unaltered books.


I'm not familiar with New Dimension Comics. Was one of these issues Miracleman #1? I just checked the CBCS population report and didn't find any listed for issue #1. CBCS does list two options for "New Dimension" in the search fields. I tried various combinations and could not get any to come up. Do you happen to have a picture of a New Dimension Comics Miracleman in a CBCS slab?





I don't have an image, no. But the CBCS Census lists them as "Eclipse Archive Edition [Silver/Gold/Blue]". There were, for the sake of completeness, also a few red editions, but none of those appear to be in CBCS slabs.
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would be nice to have a snugger fit. Sigur_Ros private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunSamurai
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigur_Ros

It wasn't their solution. It was the solution the retailer sought with the publisher to try and help out his customers. You're simply trying to create drama.

Question, did you join 2 days ago just to argue about this topic?


I didn’t say it was their solution, I said they were on board with it. And it is weird to be on board with a post manufacturing entire comic so soon after making a statement about a post manufacturing cover.

Ok, so you still don't know the difference.

But yea, why would they be on board with the best possible solution of a publisher reprint instead of saying "no, you should just have no book at all".
Weird, eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunSamurai
I didn’t join two days ago to argue about this topic. I joined two days ago to learn about this topic and find out if there was a chance that my books were among those that had been lost.

Ok. Hard to tell.
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Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qalyar
I don't have an image, no. But the CBCS Census lists them as "Eclipse Archive Edition [Silver/Gold/Blue]". There were, for the sake of completeness, also a few red editions, but none of those appear to be in CBCS slabs.


Well, after reading up on the situation, I better understand what you are referring to. I didn't get too deep into it, but from what I see these are foil images added right to the existing cover. At least as early as 2009, CGC was giving these universal labels and calling them variants. If I got that wrong, please clarify. I'm guessing that since CGC had set that precedent, CBCS followed suit.

As to whether or not these ARE variants seems to have been discussed at length on the CGC forum. I think it is a topic worthy of serious discussion. I doubt anything will change at this point, but it could be a valuable academic style discussion to have on another thread.

But as for saying that adding something to an existing cover is the same as stapling a new cover on an existing book is not accurate. I can see these foils being interpreted (rightly or wrongly) as being similar to artist remarques where the "artist" is defined as being "New Dimension". Again, if you want to, start a thread on the subject and we can debate the merits of that. But the situation is not the same. You are comparing an apple to an orange, imo.

Edit: they were brought up on this thread.

Since this was an official CBCS announcement and it has been responded to by sharing the posts from Steven McDonald, the decision has been made to lock this thread.
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