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CGC puts blue label on "new" modified excl18147

It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrdibyrd
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
I'm not convinced Marvel can say or do anything about this.

All Marvel can do is publically state that this book is not endorsed by Marvel. They had no involvement in the manipulation of this book after its initial release.

As soon as it was implied that this fiasco had the Marvel stamp of approval and they profited from that claim, then Marvel has a right to step in. Had they just said it was a homebrew kinda thing and not sought assistance from CGC to make the books look like an official release, then there would be no problem.


I missed where they (Black Flag) implied that...certainly if there is an implication that Marvel sanctioned this release then absolutely Marvel can intervene.
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Where's his Bat-package? Byrdibyrd private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrdibyrd
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
I'm not convinced Marvel can say or do anything about this.

All Marvel can do is publically state that this book is not endorsed by Marvel. They had no involvement in the manipulation of this book after its initial release.

As soon as it was implied that this fiasco had the Marvel stamp of approval and they profited from that claim, then Marvel has a right to step in. Had they just said it was a homebrew kinda thing and not sought assistance from CGC to make the books look like an official release, then there would be no problem.


I missed where they (Black Flag) implied that...certainly if there is an implication that Marvel sanctioned this release then absolutely Marvel can intervene.

Aftermarket alterations would automatically get a green label but that was not the case here. The blue label from CGC states it's the 'Black Flag Edition,' implying that it was an official release.
Post 452 IP   flag post
Collector Nearmint67 private msg quote post Address this user
Anyone see this

Post 453 IP   flag post
Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronte
My question is why hasn't marvel put its 2 cents in yet?


Why should they? I don’t see how it effects their brand in a positive way, a negative way, or in any way. They weren’t involved in the production of the acetate, the art on it, nor did they staple it to the book. The issues surrounding the altered book and grading it have nothing to do with them. They happened after they delivered the product to the buyer.
Post 454 IP   flag post
It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrdibyrd
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrdibyrd
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
I'm not convinced Marvel can say or do anything about this.

All Marvel can do is publically state that this book is not endorsed by Marvel. They had no involvement in the manipulation of this book after its initial release.

As soon as it was implied that this fiasco had the Marvel stamp of approval and they profited from that claim, then Marvel has a right to step in. Had they just said it was a homebrew kinda thing and not sought assistance from CGC to make the books look like an official release, then there would be no problem.


I missed where they (Black Flag) implied that...certainly if there is an implication that Marvel sanctioned this release then absolutely Marvel can intervene.

Aftermarket alterations would automatically get a green label but that was not the case here. The blue label from CGC states it's the 'Black Flag Edition,' implying that it was an official release.


If that's the implication then that's on CGC and not Black Flag. This alone doesn't mean Marvel shouldn't make a public statement but perhaps Marvel privately reached out to CGC for the label notation change already.

In my opinion, 100% of this fiasco falls at the feet of CGC. They were the gatekeepers here. Even if Black Flag told CGC this is a Marvel sanctioned release, CGC has a responsibility of due diligence and confirm Black Flag's claim.

This book should have been qualified green label or unviersal label with a grade hit and label notes period.

I don't fault Black Flag at all really....they've acted as expected...even if shady...still as expected. CGC on the other hand are professionals paid to sniff this crap out and either failed to do so or are knowingly complicit. Either way, not a good look for them.
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I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
When these sh*tstorms hit in any line of business (not just collectibles) or personal situations it is often the involvement of 2 or more bending rules/breaking rules or established practice that causes the storm.

Black Flag should not have engaged in this in the manner they did. Top to bottom.
CGC should have provided different label color or annotated the secondary operations in some way or graded accordingly.
The Influencers should have purchased a reasonable amount being they get on the front of a line with dealer/exhibitor badges

If any one (or more) of those 3 entities went from "should have" to "they did", anywhere from some to much of this goes away.
It's often 2 or more sh*theads being sh*theads AND the whole thing getting caught that create a major problem

Edit: Maybe the CGC "should have" is really bad. Man o man did they really screw the pooch
Post 456 IP   flag post
Collector Sebastsk8 private msg quote post Address this user
@GAC wait...you don't fault black flag at all? 100% of this issue you feel falls on cgc?

The entire ordeal was due to black flags shady deals and fraudulent cover. Would you really let your bias make you blame that entirely on cgc?
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The apple sauce and pudding were the best part... Bronte private msg quote post Address this user
@Towmater
Your right in that it happened after the fact and technically they prolly have no say, but in my opinion it just looks bad. By not saying anything, it's like marvel is condoning the behavior. If they say something, then it might prevent it from happening again. If they remain silent, the possibility in my mind, increases the likelihood this would happen again.

Personally, if it were me, I wouldn't want my name soiled in controversy. I'd want everyone to think I had a high moral standing and was an honorable person. But that is only MY opinion.

On a side note. I am not well versed in legal matters, but the term bootleg has been tossed around. If marvels comic is the core of tbe bootleg, dont they have any say as to what happens to their intellectual property even after its sold?
Post 458 IP   flag post
Collector Sebastsk8 private msg quote post Address this user
@Bronte depends on their terms when they do dealer variants...although I'd think marvel needs to have some kind of say in the final product.

What would happen if marvel came out tomorrow and said we knew about the book and approved of it? Would this whole thing just go away since it would then be an approved production modification?

Well...besides the black flag being dbags part. That won't go away.
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You can't get good wood on the ball every time. HotKeyComics private msg quote post Address this user

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It was a one trick pony show but always hilarious. GAC private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastsk8
@GAC wait...you don't fault black flag at all? 100% of this issue you feel falls on cgc?

The entire ordeal was due to black flags shady deals and fraudulent cover. Would you really let your bias make you blame that entirely on cgc?


It's not a bias. I guess what I'm saying is this. Clearly the shitshow started with Black Flag. I'm not aware of them coming out and saying this is a Marvel sanctioned release. If they came out and said that, then yes, they are obviously the responsible party. But, if they did come out and specifically state that, let's just say I wouldn't be shocked as this is a scammer trying to scam....still the responsible party for all this. To me, what's unforgiveable is CGC's position on this. They are the gatekeepers paid to route out this kind of crap. They are the authority legitimizing this book. They are their to protect the collector from these types of fiascos. CGC either did not do their due diligence or they were complicit from the get go. You can't blame a snake for being a snake (i.e. Black Flag...assuming they did not explicitly state this is a sanctioned Marvel product). You can blame CGC for not researching the snake or getting in to bed with the snake....then doubling down on how CGC handled it. There will always be fraudsters or innocent errors made in this industry....its CGCs responsiblity to catch and correct them. That's why I blame CGC entirely.
Post 461 IP   flag post
TL;DR Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Of course it affects their brand. The book is out there and based on the cover, the form of the content (including seeing Marvel clearly displayed) and the production (stapled onto the book) it looks like a Marvel variant.

Add to this that a respected third party certification (the industry standard) is implying it is an all-original manufactured variant, their brand is at risk.

Furthermore, given the publicity (ie awareness) Marvel risks giving up some of their IP by not enforcing their rights.

This is absolutely an issue for Marvel. Small potatoes in this instance but the precedent it could establish is dangerous and they’d be better off nipping it in the bud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronte
My question is why hasn't marvel put its 2 cents in yet?


Why should they? I don’t see how it effects their brand in a positive way, a negative way, or in any way. They weren’t involved in the production of the acetate, the art on it, nor did they staple it to the book. The issues surrounding the altered book and grading it have nothing to do with them. They happened after they delivered the product to the buyer.
Post 462 IP   flag post
TL;DR Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
CGC is absolutely, squarely the “worst” actor in all this. They set standards and expectations but also are expected to adhere to industry norms as well.

Giving this comic a “Universal” label is contrary to any expectation. It is why there is so much uproar. It would be like an accounting firm conducting an audit but willfully turning a blind eye to the application of normal business judgment, or a judge disregarding (entirely) established precedent, or the credit rating agencies signing off on egregious misapplication/mischaracterization of risk standards.

This stuff happens and it causes -problems- in credibility. It also has systemic implications.

We are talking comics here thankfully… but CGC is playing with fire. Again, I see this squarely impacting the modern/variant segment and not spreading beyond. But ya never know…

Hopefully they reverse course, offer a mea culpa and rectify in the census.
Post 463 IP   flag post
TL;DR Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
If Marvel embraces it as their own official product, of course it fixes the core problem. Personally I am less concerned about the 9.9 grades. There are several ways to legitimately manufacture that outcome even if the optics aren’t ideal.

Still a messy rollout and then the updated guidance from CGC seems…unnecessarily dangerous…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastsk8
@Bronte depends on their terms when they do dealer variants...although I'd think marvel needs to have some kind of say in the final product.

What would happen if marvel came out tomorrow and said we knew about the book and approved of it? Would this whole thing just go away since it would then be an approved production modification?

Well...besides the black flag being dbags part. That won't go away.
Post 464 IP   flag post
COLLECTOR dielinfinite private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrdibyrd
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrdibyrd
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAC
I'm not convinced Marvel can say or do anything about this.

All Marvel can do is publically state that this book is not endorsed by Marvel. They had no involvement in the manipulation of this book after its initial release.

As soon as it was implied that this fiasco had the Marvel stamp of approval and they profited from that claim, then Marvel has a right to step in. Had they just said it was a homebrew kinda thing and not sought assistance from CGC to make the books look like an official release, then there would be no problem.


I missed where they (Black Flag) implied that...certainly if there is an implication that Marvel sanctioned this release then absolutely Marvel can intervene.

Aftermarket alterations would automatically get a green label but that was not the case here. The blue label from CGC states it's the 'Black Flag Edition,' implying that it was an official release.


If that's the implication then that's on CGC and not Black Flag. This alone doesn't mean Marvel shouldn't make a public statement but perhaps Marvel privately reached out to CGC for the label notation change already.


If anything, it’s an implication by omission. How many variants do you see advertised as “an official Marvel release?” Practically none, if any because it’s pretty much assumed that if a book is available in any quantity then it had to be manufactured. I think they made like 750 copies of this book, which only really raises a flag if you’re aware that Marvel requires a certain minimum for a store exclusive. Even then, there have been cases where a certain number of copies are produced then a significant number are reportedly destroyed to make a smaller edition available to the public.
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Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
I’m not clear at all about how it affects their brand. They provided a “perfect” product under the contract that they negotiate with a third party. The contract that they have with that third-party should state what can and cannot be done with the product after delivery. If it did, and the third party is operating outside of the contract, then they need to address that with that entity. If they didn’t state within the contract about what can and can’t be done with the product after delivery, then they need to address that with their legal department and change the contract for future purchases.

If a third-party is operating outside of the contract, then Marvel needs to determine if they want to contact the third-party about it. In other words, they should be determining if they want to issue a cease-and-desist letter. Would they go public with all of this? Do they normally do that? Maybe the coming days will provide further insight on that.

On the comments some made about CGC…

At the end of the day, CGC can do anything they want with their product. They may have “policies” surrounding what color label they use but the are free to change those policies and allow exceptions at any time they desire to do so. To not see that or understand that is hubris. They issued a statement on why they did what they did.

IMO, this entire “event” can be summed up in the following cycle of meme’s…

















Wash, rinse, and repeat.
Post 466 IP   flag post
I'm good with splotches. Nuffsaid111 private msg quote post Address this user
Here's my summary: the whole industry is chock full of crooks and pond scum
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Masculinity takes a holiday. EbayMafia private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
I’m not clear at all about how it affects their brand. They provided a “perfect” product under the contract that they negotiate with a third party.


Consider that there are millions of unsold Marvel and DC comic books in various warehouses. If something like this caught on, it could become the new "Artist Signing" craze for a period of time. Buy up a couple thousand copies from warehouses, commission the original cover artist and resell as a limited edition variant cover. This alone could easily impede on Marvels ability to sell their own authorized limited edition variant covers. Basically folks would be using their own product to compete with them. Not to mention that these new covers, labeled by CGC as Marvel, have not gone through the Marvel approval process. Eventually artists start using these covers to pursue personal or social agendas. Maybe they accidentally or intentionally do something racist, etc. etc. It could have a lot of legs if Marvel doesn't put a stop to it.
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Collector etapi65 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater


At the end of the day, CGC can do anything they want with their product. They may have “policies” surrounding what color label they use but the are free to change those policies and allow exceptions at any time they desire to do so. To not see that or understand that is hubris. They issued a statement on why they did what they did.


Their entire product is predicated on their ability to provide verification of an authentic product. They very much cannot arbitrarily alter their method and expect to maintain the trust they've built in the collecting community. This is not a mandatory part of comic collecting. It's a luxury item. What happens to luxury item sales that lose their quality and/or integrity?
Post 469 IP   flag post
Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
I’m still unclear as to what the uproar is about. This is about 750 books. I’m not up to speed on the number that that have been graded so far, but it is a smaller number. The hobby is very aware of these books by now, and what they might or might not be.

If one wants to walk away from CGC and their actions surrounding grading them then they can. If one doesn’t, then they are free to keep using their service. The market gets to decide. Capitalism at its best. I guess, we will find out the number of those that feel strongly about walking away from CGC when they start a sales thread with all their CGC slabbed books in it, or provide links to the books on other websites sites where they are selling them. What other course of action can they take?
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Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbayMafia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
I’m not clear at all about how it affects their brand. They provided a “perfect” product under the contract that they negotiate with a third party.


Consider that there are millions of unsold Marvel and DC comic books in various warehouses. If something like this caught on, it could become the new "Artist Signing" craze for a period of time. Buy up a couple thousand copies from warehouses, commission the original cover artist and resell as a limited edition variant cover. This alone could easily impede on Marvels ability to sell their own authorized limited edition variant covers. Basically folks would be using their own product to compete with them. Not to mention that these new covers, labeled by CGC as Marvel, have not gone through the Marvel approval process. Eventually artists start using these covers to pursue personal or social agendas. Maybe they accidentally or intentionally do something racist, etc. etc. It could have a lot of legs if Marvel doesn't put a stop to it.


How about the idea that DC and Marvel just learned that they can take those warehouse books and cheaply slap an acetate cover on them. Then sell them in small runs as “new” variants. After all, they now know they are slabbable.

Gosh, a whole new area of the hobby that people will buy at stupid prices. A new profit center was born due to a comic book store doing something nobody else thought of in the past. 🤔
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Collector James42 private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
I’m still unclear as to what the uproar is about. This is about 750 books. I’m not up to speed on the number that that have been graded so far, but it is a smaller number. The hobby is very aware of these books by now, and what they might or might not be.

If one wants to walk away from CGC and their actions surrounding grading them then they can. If one doesn’t, then they are free to keep using their service. The market gets to decide. Capitalism at its best. I guess, we will find out the number of those that feel strongly about walking away from CGC when they start a sales thread with all their CGC slabbed books in it, or provide links to the books on other websites sites where they are selling them. What other course of action can they take?


The uproar is about CGC apparently providing blue labels and grades to order. Which makes every other blue (and yellow) label CGC book questionable. Especially in the higher, more valuable grades. Which means my (very small) CGC collection is worth less today than it was two weeks ago. Which means people with large slab collections are rightfully upset.
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Collector* Towmater private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by James42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
I’m still unclear as to what the uproar is about. This is about 750 books. I’m not up to speed on the number that that have been graded so far, but it is a smaller number. The hobby is very aware of these books by now, and what they might or might not be.

If one wants to walk away from CGC and their actions surrounding grading them then they can. If one doesn’t, then they are free to keep using their service. The market gets to decide. Capitalism at its best. I guess, we will find out the number of those that feel strongly about walking away from CGC when they start a sales thread with all their CGC slabbed books in it, or provide links to the books on other websites sites where they are selling them. What other course of action can they take?


The uproar is about CGC apparently providing blue labels and grades to order. Which makes every other blue (and yellow) label CGC book questionable. Especially in the higher, more valuable grades. Which means my (very small) CGC collection is worth less today than it was two weeks ago. Which means people with large slab collections are rightfully upset.


Only to those that see it from your viewpoint. The market value didn’t change to those that don’t see this as an issue.
Post 473 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Looks like Liefeld weighed in. I seriously doubt that he has seen CGC double down and even triple down on their stance that the books get a blue label.


Post 474 IP   flag post
Collector Sebastsk8 private msg quote post Address this user
@Jesse_O interesting coming from Liefield, since he is not exactly a supporter of CGC.
Post 475 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastsk8
@Jesse_O interesting coming from Liefield, since he is not exactly a supporter of CGC.


I especially appreciate his take on the legality of the situation. I'm inclined to believe the opinion of someone who has made this industry his livelihood for 30+ years. I would think he would know a thing or two about copyright and infringement laws, especially since he help found Image Comics!!!
Post 476 IP   flag post
TL;DR Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
Well, Liefeld’s understanding of the legal implications is better than some (who think this is equivalent to a sketch cover, or generally no biggie). His understanding of the overall situation seems limited, however.

There are:
* the legal issue(s)
* reputation / credibility issues
* precedent issues
* overall brand (in some areas intertwined with the above, in some areas separate and distinct)

As for anyone suggesting “move on” or “not my issue” - you’re missing the point. When there are systemic implications everyone (in the hobby) is a stakeholder of the outcome. Does not mean voting by selling slabs, or not using a service etc. There is no reason to self-regulate response or the venues for expressing concern.
Post 477 IP   flag post
TL;DR Davethebrave private msg quote post Address this user
You’re correct on potential impact. I think the scope (at the moment) is limited but credibility is hard fought to obtain, but easily lost through disdain. That systemic impact is lurking beneath all this, compounded by other questionable decisions, a difficult market (prior supply side constraints/excess demand/quality issues) and a weakening demand side threat…


Quote:
Originally Posted by James42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towmater
I’m still unclear as to what the uproar is about. This is about 750 books. I’m not up to speed on the number that that have been graded so far, but it is a smaller number. The hobby is very aware of these books by now, and what they might or might not be.

If one wants to walk away from CGC and their actions surrounding grading them then they can. If one doesn’t, then they are free to keep using their service. The market gets to decide. Capitalism at its best. I guess, we will find out the number of those that feel strongly about walking away from CGC when they start a sales thread with all their CGC slabbed books in it, or provide links to the books on other websites sites where they are selling them. What other course of action can they take?


The uproar is about CGC apparently providing blue labels and grades to order. Which makes every other blue (and yellow) label CGC book questionable. Especially in the higher, more valuable grades. Which means my (very small) CGC collection is worth less today than it was two weeks ago. Which means people with large slab collections are rightfully upset.
Post 478 IP   flag post
Moderator Jesse_O private msg quote post Address this user
Here's a little bit of a cleaner screenshot of CGC's final statement, so far.


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I'd like to say I still turned out alright, but that would be a lie. flanders private msg quote post Address this user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse_O
Looks like Liefeld weighed in


He also makes no mention of how CGC gave similar 9.9 and 10 grades to three different acetate variants produced by Black Flag, leading anyone who isn't gullible to believe that those grades are utter nonsense.

If you're going to come to the defense of someone, you should do yourself a favor and be even somewhat informed of what's going on. CGC wasn't "deceived". They are in cahoots with the others to deceive customers with made up grades.
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